Non-Monster, 07, 1100 MTS Starting Problem

[electricpete]

So....
Maybe someone on this esteemed group can provide some guidance. This problem has bugged me for about 18-months/10k miles.
Scenario 1: Turn on ignition, press and release starter button, servo-start cranks engine over until it starts, runs beautifully, no problems.
Scenario 2: Imagine pre-servo-start days, turn on ignition, push and release starter button, push and release again, and again.....
Hold starter button down, push and release occurs automatically, about once per second.
Always starts, eventually, longest time so far, about 15-minutes....
It's a coin toss; about 50% of time, scenario 1, about 50% of time scenario 2.
On a hunch (incorrect, as it turns out) I replaced the starter relay.
During scenario 2, when starter stops turning, relay contacts open, so it appears that the computer "pulses" the starter.....
If I disconnect the starter at its relay and monitor the voltage to the starter, pushing and releasing the starter button applies voltage for about 10-seconds, then the relay opens.
Sidestand up/down seems to make no difference.
Transmission in neutral or in gear with clutch squeezed, seems to make no difference.
 
What "tells" the computer when to shut off power to the starter?
Help would be greatly appreciated.

Peter

[Buhgaboo]

I'm having a similar issue...that is if your trying to start a second time and it's cranking ....if it's not cranking that's something else....you can read about here...
https://www.ducati.org/threads/monster-821-wont-start-when-hot.111703/

[electricpete]

This engine ALWAYS starts easily, hot or cold, if the starter will crank it over; the problem is getting it cranked over RELIABLY.
There is ALWAYS some response to the starter button, either full-on servo-start or just a "nudge"...

Peter

[greenmonster]

Common fault/difficulties in electrics often related to poor grund on MTS.
Check cable left of HZ cal for corrosion etc, many replace this cable w a beefier one.
http://www.multistrada.net  good for info.

[electricpete]

Thanks, I belong to that forum, also.
I've had this bike for 60k miles (lots of starts) and keep an eye on the bolted electrical connections and keep them clean and tight.
Cruddy ground connections can be a real problem. NOT in this case.....
This is a relatively sudden development.
Again, what causes the starter to shut off?

Peter

[Buhgaboo]

Your clutch switch could be bad...but not if it also fails to start in neutral...your neutral switch could be bad if it starts in gear...if it starts in gear your kickstand switch is good....electric issues love the computer engineering approach...have you unplugged the connection and reconnected it

[koko64]

These models are notoriously hard starters, you have been lucky so far!  A few issues to consider.
1. The starter motor earths thru its case but is partially insulated by a gasket or threebond.
2. A fall in battery efficiency may cause a voltage drop when cranking that interferes with computer processes.
3. State of tune, including valve adjustment, tps, throttle synch, condition of various sensors, etc will have an impact.
4. The coils split the voltage to the twin plugs and modern, dense, hi octane fuels are more difficult to ignite.
5. Oem foam air filter clogs up easily

Some solutions include:
1. good tune, from fresh plugs to valve adjustment, tps, air filter, synch, sensor condition, etc.
2. strong battery "at the top of its game",
3. extra earth cables (from battery earth to starter case bolt and another cable from that bolt to a rhs case bolt), there is a bolt that runs thru the lhs case into the starter case body
4. using the lowest octane fuel without pinging that you can possibly get away with,
5. 4 x hi voltage ignition coils and good plug wires

Other stuff will come to mind.

[Howie]

Listen to koko about the battery.  Everything else too, of course.  A perfect battery in that bike is, at best, somewhat better than marginal.  Too much voltage drop while cranking will fail to power the computer.  Fully charge and load test should be the beginning of your diagnostics.

[electricpete]

OK, I'm that you folks have been waiting with bated breath(s) to see what I've found out, so I won't keep you in suspense any longer.
Absolutely, 100% guaranteed method of starting:
Neutral light lit
Sidestand up
Clutch lever squeezed
Press and release starter button
Starts. Every. Single. Time. Period.
Any other combination of permissives, cranking is a coin toss; maybe it'll crank, maybe not, pretty close to 50/50.
If the starter cranks the engine over more than a couple of revolutions, it'll be off and running.
Anyway, that's what I've found out and I'm not going to lose any sleep over it unless something changes.
Otherwise, the safety stuff is working as it should, ie, sidestand down, neutral lamp OUT, won't crank or engine will shut off.
FWIW.....

Peter

[koko64]

 
Interesting.

[Buhgaboo]

Are you saying when the problem arises...that it cranks and won't start...or you push the start button and nothing happens?

Have you tried swapping in new relays? Even swapping one for another...then it would be she cranks but now doesn't start...or the fuel pump no longer primes...

[electricpete]

Personally, I think it's a software/hardware glitch in the ECU (but, I'm NOT a computer guy...).
So, what happens when the problem arises, is that when I press and release the starter button, the starter only engages momentarily then shuts off.
If I press the starter button a second (or third or fifth or tenth?) time the same thing will happen; or, the engine will turn over enough to get running.
If I hold the starter down, this "nudging" will happen about once a second, until I give up or until the starter spins the engine over enough to start.
One day, after stopping to fuel up, it was 20 minutes until I got the danged thing running.
The thing is, except  for this starting issue, the three "safety devices", clutch switch, neutral switch and sidestand switch, all perform their duties exactly as they should.
My only real concern is stalling in traffic and not getting started quickly (neutral being notoriously hard to find...). I'll just have to not stall in traffic.


Peter

[greenmonster]

Do measure voltage drop at battery when starter button is pressed,
below 11.0V bad battery.
Battery a bit low could cause strange problems, even if it measures
ok unloaded.
Corrosion etc in starter button uncommon but do happen.
How many miles since last valve check?