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Author Topic: High Idle and hard to start  (Read 2119 times)
lanciahf
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« on: December 24, 2020, 07:09:00 PM »

Hi All! Happy Holidays.

Not sure about the title. Last month I had my motor rebuilt ( Long Story involving a loose timing belt tensioner bearing bolt) and the mechanic commented I had a high idle. I just bought the bike in September, drove around a total of 150 miles so I'm not familiar with how the idle should be. The mechanic found that the PO adjusted the throttle cable so there was no slack. He fixed that and found the bike to idle too low. Also at this time I remembered that the fast idle lever has no effect.

He suggested I reset the TPS with a JPDiag. When I originally connected JPDiag the TPS was set at 4.3 degrees.  I backed off the fast idle screw until the throttle plates were closed, hit the TPS Reset button, which set the value to 3. Screwed the fast idle screw until contact was made with the throttle plate. I then tried to start the bike. Nothing, once in a while the bike would pop but would not start. I rechecked what I did and nothing I did changed the no start condition. I then screwed in the fast idle screw until the original yellow locking paint marks matched. Bike sounded like it wanted to start even more but no dice. So I turned in the fast idle screw another full turn and the bike started. Viola I also noticed now my fast idle lever works.

After the bike warmed up I adjusted the idle DOWN to 1300, bike sounding great. Tried to restart and no luck, so I adjusted the fast idle screw up and the bike started. If I let the bike idle less than 1500 the bike will not restart. Once started I can get the bike to idle down to 1000 but she will not restart. So I have the bike set to idle at 1500 rpm when warm and she will start.

The Bike is a 2003 Monster 1000 with only 3300 miles. The only mods that I can see that the prior owner did was a Ferrachi Exhaust and a power commander box. I removed the power commander box but this did not effect the start condition. In fact the bike was always hard to start.  I think the high idle and hard to start condition are related but not sure what to check.  Also what should the idle speed be set at 1000?  My Ducati dealer looks down at the bike since it is old and I did not buy it from them.

Any help would be appreciated.
Thanks,

Ralph
« Last Edit: December 24, 2020, 07:10:39 PM by lanciahf » Logged
Orange16
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« Reply #1 on: December 24, 2020, 10:59:50 PM »

Exactly which screw have you been adjusting that you're calling the "fast idle screw"?

This page shows throttle bodies with bits numbered - http://www.bikeboy.org/ducati2vthrottleb.html  The page is about the non linear TPS reset, but the throttle bodies pictured should be pretty much identical to what your bike has and that's useful here.

Ignore the rubbish at the top in red as you do need to do an electronic reset for the linear TPS.  You can do that via JPDiag, but you can also use the GuzziDiag or it's generic Marelli version called IAWDiag.  IAWDiag has more options for ECU and TPS combinations that the Moto Guzzi models didn't have.  In my experience the GuzziDiag/IAWDiag is a bit more user friendly.

But the numbers are the important bits to start with.  For clarity, your M1000ie 2003 is a 59M ECU, PF1C linear TPS, non idle control bike.  Apart from the parts about the multimeter setting of the TPS, the text on that page is somewhat relevant.  You do need to adjust the air bleed screws to set the idle speed, and finish it off with the idle mixture adjustment.

On the linear TPS bikes you should never adjust #5 or #7.  Lots of people do mess with #7, but #5 on the LH throttle body is more a master screw as the TPS is on the LH or vertical throttle body.  The position of the RH throttle blade is somewhat set by #5 and by the synch adjustment, so make sure it has clearance and when you check and adjust the synch you might need to adjust #7 again.  Just make sure, at the end of the process, it is wound in far enough that it stops the RH throttle blade from sticking shut.  And has a little clearance.

But, to start with and before you do the TPS reset via the diagnostic tool, make sure there is clearance at #7 so #5 is all that is setting the throttle opening.  If #5 has been messed with you need to go through another baselining procedure that the Bikeboy also sets out.  But because it's in the middle and hidden generally it is untouched by the idiots who fiddle who should not.

Once you have done the TPS reset, move on to the synch.  In the Bikeboy page this is below the heading "Back to the procedure", and he calls it balance.  You need a vacuum tool to do this - mercury gauges, something like that.  You can skip this step and assume yours is ok, but really that's just opening your procedure to another source of fail.  You can pull the fast idle lever on to keep it running, and make sure you have the air bleeds screwed fully in at this point.  Not tight, but until they stop.

#3 and #8 are the air bleeds.  People often ask what the default setting is, but there isn't one.  You wind these out far enough that the bike will idle.  That is the next step.  Try 1 turn out and see what happens.  Go more or less as required.  The only purpose of these air bleeds screws is to set the idle speed.  Well, almost the only purpose.

An issue with these air bleeds is that, by definition, they allow air to bypass the throttle blades.  An adjustable vacuum leak if you like.  This also means that they do influence the idle mixture, as there is nothing that measures their position and changes the fuelling to compensate.  Wind the air bleeds out, and you'll lean off the idle mixture.  This catches people out when they wind them out to increase the idle speed, but the speed doesn't rise.  If the mixture is lean, and you make it leaner by winding the air bleeds out more, it'll be too lean to increase the idle speed.  So you need to adjust the idle trimmer in conjunction with the air bleeds to some extent.

Ideally, as this was all set at the Ducati factory before the bike left, the set up, if it hasn't been adjusted by the aforementioned idiots, should be "close".  But you might find that you need to play with the idle trimmer to get a response.  If the air bleeds are 1 turn out and it won't idle, and 1 and a half or 2 turns makes no difference, increase the idle trimmer setting.  If you have access to a gas analyzer to measure the exhaust gas CO this is much easier.  But if not, and if it is way off, adjusting the idle trimmer in the diagnostic software will either make the RPM rise or fall.  1100 - 1150 RPM is a nice idle speed.

If the idle RPM rise by richening (or leaning) the idle trimmer setting only, then that means it was off.  Set it so you get the highest idle speed, then if that is too high, go back and wind the air bleeds in to lower the idle speed.  Because winding them in richens the mixture due to reducing the air entering the engine, you then have to lean the trimmer setting off.  It's a bit of back and forward if the bike is a long way off, but you should get to the point where it is happy.  If you have access to a gas analyzer and can read the mixture at the muffler or, ideally, in each header, it's much faster and accurate.  Maybe ask an auto shop if no bike shops near you have a gas analyzer.  Smog testing places should have one (depending on your area), see if they'll let you have a play.  I'd go for 3 to 6%, 5% if you have time to get it really nice.
 
Generally, the idle trimmer setting will be between -10 and +20.  Really, 0 to +15 is the range you "should" see if everything is "right", as this is all part of the set up procedure the Ducati and Marelli engineers went through when they developed the mapping, and I believe they usually started with the idle trimmer set to 0.

How right you can get it will depend on the tools you have to hand.  Doing the idle trimmer setting by ear you'll find a pretty wide range between hearing the idle RPM drop at the lean end and again at the rich end.  Try to pick those points, then go the middle.  You can also adjust the idle trimmer setting to give nicest running at low speeds and cruise and fuel economy.  If you're prepared to play with it, and make adjustments of 2 or 3 points at a time, you should be able to make it a nice thing.  Be patient.

And it should start easily.  You can also play with the mapping using the GuzziDiag flashing tools and TunerPro if you really want to get stuck in.

If it only has 3300 miles, I'd do a fuel filter and clean out the tank to make sure it's not gunky or rusty inside.  Give it a good dose of Seafoam or the like to clean the injectors and do some miles with enthusiasm before the idle setting to allow it to clean out if it needs to.

« Last Edit: December 24, 2020, 11:06:09 PM by Orange16 » Logged
lanciahf
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« Reply #2 on: December 25, 2020, 06:08:10 AM »

Hi!  Thanks for the reply.

1. I adjusted screw #12


I think I have a non Linear TPS?


JPDiag Readout


I can get the bike to idle at 1100 but she will not start then.  The Bleed and idle stop screws you mentioned still have the factory paint marks on them so I was hoping the Previous Owner did not touch those.  I was wondering maybe they flashed the ECU when they installed the exhaust and the stupid power commander box??  Is there a way to check for a standard ECU Flash? 

I think I might have to find a dealer and trust them as I do not trust myself to mess with the balancing.  The Exhaust does smell dirty at 1500 rpms so maybe that is another clue.



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Orange16
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« Reply #3 on: December 25, 2020, 03:25:38 PM »

PF1C is linear.  PF3C is non linear and you can see the adjustment slots if it doesn't have the rectangular washers.

It still has the air bleed plugs fitted, which should mean it's as it left the factory and so it should idle.

Maybe have a quick look elsewhere.  Give it a leak down test to see if it has a valve sealing issue.  It might have a lot of closing valve clearance which can lead to idle issues.  Check the fuel pressure.  3300 miles isn't many to have these sort of issues come up, but if it has sat for some time in one spot with a valve or two open valve seats can get corroded.  The fuel filter is an obvious replacement too - the steel tanks can get awfully funky in 17 years, especially with such little use.

If you cant do it yourself, see if you can find a shop that actually does valve clearance adjustments, not just check if they're "in spec" and have them do that and the leak down and fuel filter, etc.  Might cost, but it's clearly not usable as it.
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lanciahf
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« Reply #4 on: December 25, 2020, 04:19:50 PM »

Thanks for the suggestions.

Just to be clear it will idle at 1100 rpm its just wont restart.  In order for the bike to restart I have to screw in the fast idle screw, which usually leaves it idling at 1500 rpm.

The Valves were adjusted when the vertical head was redone.

The only thing that is not right is that the previous owner removed the carbon canister.  Right now the gas fumes are vented to the atmosphere.

I'll try the fuel filter first.  Straight forward I hope?

Thanks Again,
Ralph
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lanciahf
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« Reply #5 on: December 25, 2020, 04:26:08 PM »

For Fuel Filters, any preference?

MAHLE KL 145 Fuel Filter or NAPA 3032
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ducpainter
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DILLIGAF


« Reply #6 on: December 25, 2020, 04:41:37 PM »

NAPA filter is fine. You might want to replace the fuel line inside the tank while you're in there. Part# H-209.

The cap mounting flange can be tough to remove and fiddly to get back into the tank. Use a hammer handle to lever it out. Don't be shy with the grease reinstalling.
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lanciahf
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« Reply #7 on: December 25, 2020, 04:49:25 PM »

Thanks ducpainter,

I'll try it tomorrow.
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ducpainter
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« Reply #8 on: December 25, 2020, 05:09:30 PM »

You said that if you turned the fast idle screw in the bike would start.

Will it start if you use the fast idle lever when it's otherwise idling fine?
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lanciahf
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« Reply #9 on: December 25, 2020, 05:14:16 PM »

No it doesn't. It sounds weird like it has no compression.  I can try again tomorrow.
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lanciahf
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« Reply #10 on: January 19, 2021, 03:35:57 PM »

Hi All,

Just wanted to put a little closure to this thread. I dropped the bike off at the mechanic that rebuilt the motor. He used to work for the Ducati dealer in NJ, Cross Country Cycles. He said the CO was set too high at 10% and the plugs were fouled. He said the CO should be between 2 and 4. He also adjusted my AFR and trim levels. He said the bike was messed with and when I reset the TPS I only made it worse. He said now my monster has the most linear power delivery of any monster that he has driven. Before the motor broke the bike was not happy under 4K, now I can drive around at 3K. Bike starts instantly when hot but cold starts are still a pain. As the weather warms I'll put the bike up for sale, bike is just too fast for me and I'm tired of the drama.

Thanks all who tried to help.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2021, 03:38:20 PM by lanciahf » Logged
Orange16
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« Reply #11 on: January 24, 2021, 08:04:26 PM »

Glad it got sorted.  I'd say it was interesting, but as someone who does this it's really just infuriating at how wrong some bikes find themselves, for no good reason.  Something you had no real chance of fixing yourself either, but with the right equipment it's an easy hour's work in a shop. 
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