2005 S2R 800 - clutch issues, dragging - PROBLEM SOLVED

[pmazdan9]

UPDATE: please see post #13 - click

Hello fellow ducatisti, new here. I recently purchased 2005 S2R 800 with 30k miles on it, I'm loving it. I got a really good deal on it, yeah it needed new tyres, belt/valves service and new dashboard... but hey, I can do it all myself and it's not gonna cost much money, just time. Unfortunately, there was another problem which I wasn't aware of - the clutch.

FIRST SYMPTOMS (might help someone in the future):
Bike used to stall and lurch forward when put in 1st only on cold engine. I was pretty sure its due to sticky plates as bike sat for few months, I was gonna look at it soon. Also it rattled a little while clutch was engaged in neutral, which used to go away when clutch was disengaged - I though it was normal (my first ducati). About a 1,5 months (and 1500 miles) after purchase, bike started dragging with clutch lever pulled in. It 'broke down' on my way to work, I managed to get it to the nearest local mechanic. Yeah, with no clutch, I did sweat a little but it was only about a mile. Anyway, the reason I decided to go to the garage was the lack of time to look at it, and bike needed new tyres anyway. I figured I can pay a bit more to bleed clutch, not a big deal.

MECHANICS INSPECITON (he was useless, skip)
I spoke to the geezer and he said my slave cylinder was knackered. Fair enough, ordered new one, fittet, problem still persists. They spent 6 hours trying on different masters and slaves with no luck. They said then that clutch needs to be taken apart and that it'll take them at least 4 hours to strip it. I said nah, you kiddin, paid £240 labour (they "reduced" price to 4h), bit the bullet and took bike back home.

MY INSPECTION
I opened a bottle of fav drink and took the clutch cover off. Basket seemd to be a bit loose, I removed 6 bolts with springs. Voila! Half a pint later I found that the big 32mm retaining nut was completely loose. I took it off with 1 finger.

DAMAGE CAUSED
Clutch basket was loose and created a gap, so pushrod couldn't lift the pressure plate far enough to disengage clutch - explains dragging clutch. Sprocket thats riveted to the back of clutch basket is completely knackered. Most teeth are badly damaged, two of the springs in the back are broke - that was the rattle I guess. Luckily they didnt fall out... on the bright side, basket itself isn't notched at all. Whole clutch pack looks brand new. All within specs. I managed to find entire clutch from another monster - 2010 696. I hope it will fit. It's almost impossible to find the part I need unless I pay £550 for a new one from ducati-parts. Nah.
Photos:
Damaged teeth
Broken damper springs

MY QUESTIONS
1. While I removed the clutch I must have been silly enough to pull the clutch lever in. Also I inserted pushrod back in before it was mounted in the plate and pushed it few times. Yeah... so as I've put everything back together I noticed that clutch lever is stiff and won't really move much. Pressure plate is lifted and looks like the clutch is disengaged, I can push it in but it goes back. I guess the piston is stuck in slave cylinder (didn't check yet)? How do I push it back? Have I just knakcered brand new slave cylinder?
2. How can I fit the new clutch without basket/hub holding tool? I simply cannot find one anywhere, and it's got to be torqued to 190nm. I was thiking to put bike in gear and put something through rear wheel spoke to block it from moving?

[Speeddog]

Fitment of the 696 clutch, maybe, basket is different P/N, but other major parts are the same.

2010 696 - 19810331A - clutch/primary gear.
                 19020161A - clutch disc set
                 19610251A - outer hub
                 19610241A - inner hub

2005 S2R800 - 19920052A - clutch/primary gear.
                       19020161A - clutch disc set
                      19610251A - outer hub
                       19610241A - inner hub

The slave cylinder has a spring inside it that will slowly push the piston all the way out.
Of course, one can help it along by pulling the lever.
Eventually, the piston bottoms out, and the lever will go solid, if the system is completely bled.
Don't pull on the lever hard, that just strength tests the slave cylinder and it's possible to break it that way.

When you say " Pressure plate is lifted and looks like the clutch is disengaged, I can push it in but it goes back." Is that with the 6 springs installed completely?

There's a couple things to be verified first before torquing that nut up, step by step.

[stopintime]

98.13% sure the 696 clutch will fit. Have one laying around from when I decided to go for a clutch without the heavy 'damper' springs (which I have broken twice).

The primary drive gear and the primary driven gear should be a pair (from 'birth'). Are they?

[pmazdan9]

When you say " Pressure plate is lifted and looks like the clutch is disengaged, I can push it in but it goes back." Is that with the 6 springs installed completely?

There's a couple things to be verified first before torquing that nut up, step by step.

Yes, that's with the 6 springs installed and torqued to spec. This is what it looked like when I originally opened clutch cover for the first time (nut was loose), now it looks a little better but very similar (it's a bit more tight, but again, the piston in the slave cylinder might be pushing it as well?):
click /e: UPDATE - this is with the 10mm spacer inside that I forgot to take out hance the confusion, my bad!

However, the basket just sits on hand tight, and slave cylinder needs to be looked at, so I'll check these first I suppose when the new clutch arrives. Would you mind telling me what needs to be verified before torquing this nut? I can't see anything in service manual other than "lock the hub with rare expensive tool" which I dont have, and cant find.

98.13% sure the 696 clutch will fit. Have one laying around from when I decided to go for a clutch without the heavy 'damper' springs (which I have broken twice).

I'm hoping that the difference in part number is just due to these damper springs, otherwise the dimensions, number of teeth etc I hope are the same. If not, I'll send it back to the seller. I'm happy not to have these springs - googled too many horror stories about them!

The primary drive gear and the primary driven gear should be a pair (from 'birth'). Are they?

I'm sorry, not sure what your question is. If you're referring to the picture then yes, mine are fixed together by some heavy duty rivets. English is not my mother language and I'm not really a mechanic as well, so I struggle a bit with technical terms.

That reminds me, I have another question. The sprocket that moves with clutch basket's gear looks different in service manual. It looks like I have 2 separate ones. What I mean is the one to the right of clutch (disassembled at the mo), above oil filter gear. Theres a thin one with springs, and a thick one right behind it. What am I looking at and how do they work?
click

This is the sprocket riveted to the back of clutch basket. Damage seems to be caused by the thinner sprocket with springs?
click

[stopintime]

Your Photobox album is not accessable.

Clutch tool. I have never used this and I don't know if it fits, but our sponsor MonsterParts do. Ask. https://monsterparts.com/products/ducati-clutch-basket-holding-tool

We have a primary drive gear. It sits on the crank shaft end and is the 'first' gear we see. On these engines it's a 'dual mass' gear = two gears, one with small springs in it. Good idea on paper, but not in real life.

Then we have a large primary driven gear (driven by the drive gear) riveted to the basket.

The drive and driven gear should be a pair from 'birth'. Did you buy both?

[pmazdan9]

Argh silly me, most image hosting websites are blocked on my work PC which is why I used this one. Of course it's not accessible, sorry. I'll see if I cna find alternative later on.

This is not the tool I need I'm afraid, PN is 88713.2423. It looks like a wrench with socket that has 4 pins that fiti n the primary drive gear to hold it in place. Also, I live in UK.

Thanks for clarification, it all makes sense. I'll dig into mechanics of dual-mass gear. It looks like the thinner gear (one with springs, closer to clutch cover) is what damaged the driven gear.

In answer to your question - no, I only bought the primary driven gear. Even if I had the mated drive gear, I don't have tools to replace it; bike's an absolute money pit already so I'll just try to replace the driven gear and listen to any grinding noise etc. Hopefully it'll be fine...

Yesterday I've checked the slave cylinder. It looks fine and piston wasn't stuck or anything. I removed it and measured how far the pushrod sticks out, it was about 35mm. There's about 20mm inside the slave cylinder. I removed the clutch again and made sure pushrod goes all the way inside pressure plate. Checked again and pushrod sticks out about 30mm now from slave cylinder side. There's still ~10mm difference - is this normal, do I just screw in the slave cylinder so that the piston goes inside? I didn't want to force it yesterday so just left in loose, but I'll get the new clutch today and need to know what to do with it.

[Howie]

Round up a couple of clutch plates, a bar and a welder and you have a tool.

[stopintime]

Another thing: the last clutch plate has it's own off set slot in the basket.

[pmazdan9]

Another thing: the last clutch plate has it's own off set slot in the basket.

Noted. Why though, out of curiosity?

I googled various methods to hold the clutch hub while tightening the nut: 6th gear and steel bar through the sprocket, rag between primary drive/driven gears, steel wires bolted to clutch cover and basket, nylon strap wrench... not happy with any of them really. I'll just use some of the clutch plates to fabricate a tool since I've got some extra ones anyway. I'll use old knackered basket as a guide to drill through the plates, then bolt everything together with some sort of handle - that should do.

I received the new clutch today. Finishing work in an hour then straight to the garage. I'm excited and terrified

[stopintime]

Noted. Why though, out of curiosity?

..............

I don't know / can't remember why (if I ever knew).

[DuciD03]

Noted. Why though, out of curiosity?

I googled various methods to hold the clutch hub while tightening the nut: 6th gear and steel bar through the sprocket, rag between primary drive/driven gears, steel wires bolted to clutch cover and basket, nylon strap wrench... not happy with any of them really. I'll just use some of the clutch plates to fabricate a tool since I've got some extra ones anyway. I'll use old knackered basket as a guide to drill through the plates, then bolt everything together with some sort of handle - that should do.

I received the new clutch today. Finishing work in an hour then straight to the garage. I'm excited and terrified

 


lol; hope that woked out! following with ya; have taken a couple of duc clutches out but never that nut yer talk-in about so-oooo ... let us know how she worked out...yeay  ...or nay

[Speeddog]

I don't know / can't remember why (if I ever knew).

I've never heard any logical explanation, nor have I been able to concoct my own.

It seems fairly common, though.

 

[pmazdan9]

(tl;dr on the bottom)

Right, so...

I fabricated a tool using some steel plates from the 696 clutch pack (mine were in better condition). First handle I made turned out to be too weak and just bent (think it was aluminium - click). I went to the local shop and purchased 4mm thick galvanized steel bar. I didn't weld anything, just driller 2 holes and bolted it all together - click. That did the trick, I torqued new clutch basket to 155nm with loctite (it's meant to be 20% less torque with it).

At first my clutch was disengaged completely no matter what, lever stone hard. It turned out my new slave cylinder bottomed out. Luckilly I still had my old OEM one, which mechanic diagnozed as faulty, so I've put it on, bled and voila. Clutch does engage and disengage! /edit: actually, for a record, the new aftermarket slave cylinder was fine - I didn't realize it had 10mm spacer inside hence all the confusion lol!

Before I fired her up I tried to push the bike in 1st with clutch lever pulled in. I'm not gonna lie it did hesitate quite a lot, so I wasn't very optimistic. I just thought it shouldn't really be doing that - I bled it properly with speed bleeder, no air bubbles at all! I though maybe it's due to cold engine oil. So fired her up in neutral, let her warm up. Turned off, tried to push in 1st again with lever in. Same thing. Smoked fag. Fired her up agian and decided to try and ride her.

And... she's alive! No overly loud clunk when shifting to 1st, no stalling, no dragging, no rattling, no unusual vibrations, no grinding noise. Still not easy to find neutral It's very smooth and seems to accelerate better than ever before. It's like a new bike!

For a record, I only replaced the clutch basket (with primary driven gear). Also I used the 696 springs as they were a bit shorter but still well within the spec so why not (plus one of mine s2r was 2mm shorter than the other 5, whilst 696 were all about the same). I did not replace primary drive gear!

One thing worth mentioning is that the 696 primary driven gear (sprocket riveted to the clutch basket) is thinner than s2r. What that means is it doesn't touch the thinner sprocket on dual-mass primary driven gear. Which I believe is a good thing because they are known to fail too! And, of course, it doesn't have damper springs in the back so again, that's a good thing

tl;dr - it works

[pmazdan9]

Right, I rode about 1500 miles since then and it is dragging again. Actually, it was dragging a little bit all that time but it didn't bother me. Few days ago it got worse and bike started to stall more often.

I made another thread but admin merged it so here's the original post:

Long story short bike started dragging to the point it was unrideable - basket retaining nut was completely loose but also primary driven gear was knackered. I replaced the basket (with said gear) and tightened the nut. It kind of solved the problem, but bike still occasionally stalls when I shift to 1st, and it does drag a little bit. When I fire it up in 1st it lurches forward.

It has fresh oil (motul 10w40), I installed shorter springs (still within specs), new slave cylinder, clutch pack is all within specs, pushrod isn't bent. Everything is torqued properly. There's no air in the system.

One thing that might be the cause is clutch inner hub (the one that 'holds' steel plates). It does have some grooves. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think this is the main cause, if at all, because even if I rev the bike to separate the plates, it still drags. I have tried another inner hub that's in better shape but bike didn't like it. It didn't fit very well (was very tight) and consequently bike used to make a terrifying knocks when releasing clutch, so I went back to the old one.

Can I possibly remove 1 or 2 steel plates from the pack so that the stack is lower but still within specs? Two friction plates next to each other, is that going to be a problem? I'm a little desperate lol.

Also, should I use shorter or longer clutch springs? Which ones help the clutch to disengage easier? Shorter ones, am I right?

I'm running out of ideas, can anyone advice?

[ducpainter]

Are the plates Barnett?