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Author Topic: Collapsed water pump suction hose, Blocked thermostat both ways?  (Read 1642 times)
Qomomoko
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« on: June 13, 2019, 04:14:21 PM »

Hey guys,

I keep an  eye on temperature on cool Miami, Florida days; the bike runs 170- 185 deg F. ON warmer days with traffic  I see it 200- 215 deg. On stop and go traffic I seen at 225 and both fans running and stable temp.
About a week ago I noticed the suction hose on the water pump was partly collapsed (see attached video). I did not freak out as I knew water was still going thru  and the hose was pretty warm. What can cause no flow such that the hose collapses? I thought a full closed thermostat on both ways, so a blocked thermostat? I will remove it and inspect and hopefully I can tell if it opens up when placed in a boiling pot.
Can you guys also help me find manual/ data for temp sensors, fans and thermostat settings? I like to have verified data when trouble shooting. I mean I have the S4 owners manual but was looking for more technical drawings Wink
Besides replacing with EOM, can you guys chip in  as to cleaning or thermostat alternatives?
I had the bike not running for 4 months!! First I needed tyres, then my oil pressure switch needed replacing; all done but now the thermostat?

Also, I'll admit the following. At one point when the suction hose was collapsed, I opened the radiator cap and it was empty!!! Saw very little flow. I was kind of freaked out so did not observe other variables. However, after I turned the bike off, the radiator filled up again, and the overflow reservoir was 1 inch below the minimum. In this instance the temperature did not go above 190 deg F.
I then filled the overflow tank to the max level and rode the bike and level stabilized between min and max in the over flow reservoir; it kicked some coolant out  after a ride and shutting bike off.

Smiley I use engine Ice and its a 2002 Monster S4


« Last Edit: June 13, 2019, 05:41:08 PM by Qomomoko » Logged
Howie
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« Reply #1 on: June 13, 2019, 09:21:11 PM »

Original hoses?  Good idea to change them.  Maybe upgrade to silicone.  While you are at it, remove the thermostat and test it.  Suspend it in a pot of water with a thermometer in it.  Bring to a boil.  Observe what temperature the thermostat opens.  Do not drink the water.  Pour new coolant in through radiator cap.  Squeezing the hoses will help it fill.  Replace cap.   Fill reservoir to cold mark.  Run bike at idle until fans come on.  Allow to cool.  Top off and check for leaks.  You can also run it with the cap off and top it off after the fans come on, but coolant might bubble out,  Then check for leaks.
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Qomomoko
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« Reply #2 on: June 14, 2019, 01:14:25 AM »

Thanks for input,
Not original hoses, in fact its a 2 piece vs the 1 piece EOM.
Will look into silicone hoses advantage, might as well change it.
I read in a couple of threads that it was recommend 50/50 for coolant, but since I use Engine Ice no need to dilute.
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Howie
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« Reply #3 on: June 14, 2019, 04:19:43 AM »

If the hoses are reasonably new, proper quality and in good condition you might want to reuse them, ta least until your issues are solved.  Then read up on the benefits and decide.  Ah, Engine Ice.  Good stuff, but does not mix well with ethylene glycol.  if you did not flush the old stuff out well there is a chance you might have a clogged radiator.  Check flow while things are apart.
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Qomomoko
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« Reply #4 on: June 17, 2019, 09:12:16 AM »

Do not have extra coolant or di water to refill so waiting on that and to measure the current amount in my coolant system.
But Based on the dash gauge temp these are the temperatures (Left is service manual of 2001 S4, right is dash gauge number)

Thermostat opening ( 149 deg F, 130 deg F)

Left fan on               ( 2 numbers[ 197 F & 217 F], 225 F)
Right fan on             ( 2 number [ 197 F & 217 F], 227 F)

Right fan off             ( 2 number [ 188 F & 215 F], 213 F)
Left fan off               ( 2 number [ 188 F & 215 F], 209 F)

Temperature maxed at 227 deg F and then cooled to 205 and then was doing its dance.
The above matches my experience with my bike.
The radiator was all hot and the expansion tank went from min lvl to just below mx level.

This is not the end, will still inspect the  thermostat and drain the coolant / replace, think it is no more than 5 years old/ 5k miles.

I was also using a craftsman amp/temp meter but it did not track close to the gauge temp, I might as well just use my hand to have felt when the thermostat opened LOL.

Will look to possibly swap the coolant temp sensor and fan start sensor and see how it behaves.

Hose did not collapse jejeje
« Last Edit: June 17, 2019, 09:33:11 AM by Qomomoko » Logged
Qomomoko
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« Reply #5 on: June 18, 2019, 07:22:39 AM »

How much did I have with the expansion tank at the min level and taking 99% of coolant out? 2.3-2.5 liters ( .6-.66 gall) (2.4 qt-2.6 qt).
I then flushed the system with  50/50 distilled water/ vinegar.  I put appx 2 liter in the sytem sans the expansion tank.
It burped a little but not much barely had to add any. Kind of freaked me out and so I topped of the expansion tank and put radiator cap on.
Full drain of 50/50 mix 2.8 liters ( .75 gallons) ( 3 quarts).
Based on forum numbers of 2.7 liter coolant system I was fine from the get go; however, the 2001 S4 service manual calls for 3.5 liters.

Next thermostat test.
I read on this forum that the thermostat does not fully block flow at low temps to not dead head the pump; read this on this forum's write up.

Suction hose collapsed reason, still searching.
Hope to borrow a thermal gun from work and  compare temperatures to the gauge.
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Qomomoko
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« Reply #6 on: June 19, 2019, 08:38:05 AM »

Using my Craftsman temp tool, it opened twice at 150 deg F!! lol so glad.
I tested it with ice water and boiling water and it read 35 deg F and 209 deg F so it is good to go.

I am not good at posting pics, used to use photobucket but think I reached the free limit jeje.

The hoses look flexible and only had minor minor smudge, the engine ice that was in the engine was nice and clear blue and ONLY had some smudge when I drained the expansion tank; I will clean the expansion tank in place again.
When I had a mixture of vinegar/water in the expansion tank, I blew thru both hoses  to agitate and help clean and see hold pressure held; seemed to hold.


Not sure how to test the radiator cap; especially it opening at the proper pressure.
When I did fill the radiator and the expansion tank to max, the expansion tank did overflow and it was left with engine ice at the minimum level; this leads me to believe it is OK.

The clamps are not rusted but do look worn but usable. The rubber had been indented by the clamps at the connection, like a millimeter.
There is a mix of clamps.  The expansion tank had a PITA squeeze type clamp. Them most were the spring hose clamp type. Then the radiator cap vent and another were the the screw perforated hose clamp type.


I heard silicone hoses are more delicate than rubber and can absorb water 10-15% more.
I am a cheap guy but try to be practical and especially safe when it come to motorcycles.
I do like to buy my moto nice things that look bling  popcorn.
I have read other threads for info but most are more than a few years old.
Any one with pics of colored silicone hoses would be super!!

Once it is put together and I do another flush with vinigar/water and then just water ( distilled), I will measure radiator fluid temp and compare with the gauge one.
The boots on my temp sensors is slightly broken.

So in summary.

Thermostat; check ok
Engine ice ; volume was ok 2.5 lit and condition was good.
Radiator cap; ok

IF I did not have that video of the suction hose partly collapsed I would have thought that I imagined it  drink

 drool
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Howie
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« Reply #7 on: June 19, 2019, 09:21:25 AM »

An auto repair shop can test the cap for you.  Other than aesthetics and ease of removal  there is no reason to go with silicone.
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Qomomoko
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« Reply #8 on: June 20, 2019, 06:20:52 AM »

An auto repair shop can test the cap for you.  Other than aesthetics and ease of removal  there is no reason to go with silicone.

Sweet, thanks. Radiator cap test to come thought it should not be needed to open when the bike is barely warm.
However, I did home test the thermostat bypass flow. With no pressure the flow is a solid trickle, less than the minimum my faucet can put out.
When I blew my lung capacity ( little google showed about .8 psi   cheeky ) the stream was still almost minimum as before.
Putting a light opposite of thermostat showed some room on the outside of the thermostat (but within the housing to be clear) for flow (it was not all around it) and it also showed three little holes (orifice of 1 mm or less).

It look like it is not really meant for flow but more to allow pressure build to escape and not dead head the pump ( same thing in essence )

Pics to come once I found a good photo host.

I ordered thru amazon a $41 dollar black hose set Wink Based on ebay and amazon info, it is a Chinese brand that come from a seller in Ohio. Gplus, Generic, Note Sonboard, Vrracing and others use the same hose pics and clamps.
I prefer Amazon to Ebay; had a bad experience with UK ebay (UK ebay and ebay appear to have different rules  at least back in 2012)
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Qomomoko
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« Reply #9 on: July 03, 2019, 07:25:40 AM »

I have a a good amount of gunk / rust....

I have used the vinager/distilled water flush...

I was gonna do a mini flush with the new hoses but i think I better keep flushing with  the old ones..

.... sucks man.. its is grainy gunk.. little speks of sand it and its not that loose but on the surface of the pipes..
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Qomomoko
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« Reply #10 on: July 03, 2019, 07:28:31 AM »

can i flush with regular water to get as much debri out?? or better keep the vinegar/distilled mix only??
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Howie
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« Reply #11 on: July 03, 2019, 08:49:39 AM »

Water should be fine.
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Qomomoko
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« Reply #12 on: July 11, 2019, 04:16:17 PM »

Flushed 3 times with 50/50 vinegar/distilled water
Flushed twice distilled water.

Filled radiator with engine ice; 76.7 ounces/ 2.23 liters
Filled expansion tank to max level; 16 ounces / .47 liters

its 94 deg F outside,  first gear cruising got to 190 deg F.
Parked with engine on, fans cycles 224 deg F to 226 deg F.
Radiator did not overflow into expansion tank at these temps, or at least enough to push fluid out the overflow hose or to notice change in expansion tank level.

With every flush I ran the bike for about 2-3 miles, no signs of suction hose collapsing.

I bought a Chinese brand, looks good to me. Only issue is the hose clamps it came are slightly rusting already LOL.. aghh.. recommend getting better one.

Thanks for the help.

« Last Edit: July 11, 2019, 04:36:19 PM by Qomomoko » Logged
koko64
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« Reply #13 on: July 17, 2019, 12:38:58 PM »

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