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Author Topic: Another no-Monster build thread  (Read 33159 times)
MonsterHPD
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« Reply #195 on: July 08, 2021, 04:45:20 AM »

Well, since there´s nothing particular going on at the moment, maybe time for an update.

The bike is up and running, with the Proservice-modified heads and the 50 mm throttle bodies.
It took a lot of work to get squish and compression where I wanted them. However, “squish” is a relative term on these heads since the combustion chambers are pretty much hemispherical. Presumably, this is done for emission reasons, since squish-type combustion chambers are worse for HC emissions. So “squish” really becomes the minimum clearance at the outer edge of the piston.
Anyway, after a lot of measuring and finally some piston machining in combination with the 0.2 mm base gasket gave a “squish” of 0.9 to 1.0 mm, and a compression ratio of 12.2:1. It´s about as high as I´m prepared to go on an air-cooled big-bore motor.

2021-03-10 17.22.30 by torbjörn bergström, on Flickr

The 50 mm throttles from the S4RS took quite a bit of tinkering to get I place. With a bit of luck (and help from a friend) I had found some inlet rubber that fitted the throttle housings exactly, but I had to manufacture the inlet stubs, and adaptors for the filters.

2021-04-09 11.49.50 by torbjörn bergström, on Flickr

In the end, it fitted quite nicely (just …) inside the frame rails; I had to re-locate the rectifier, but no big deal.

20210428_105114 by torbjörn bergström, on Flickr

The actuation was more of a problem, since the wire wheel on the master throttle is permanently fitted on the throttle shaft.  In the end I managed to fix a secondary wire wheel to the primary wheel and keep it reasonably centered.

20210428_101139 by torbjörn bergström, on Flickr

The secondary throttle has a very long protruding shaft with an M8x1 thread that does not extend all the way towards the throttle housing. I did not see this as a problem, until I tried to extend the thread; since the shaft is machined flat from 2 sides, there is not enough Ø8 mm shaft left for the thread die to get a continuous grip. The resulting installation is not too pretty, but it works ….

2021-06-30 10.45.04 by torbjörn bergström, on Flickr

The connection between the 2 throttle bodies has to be made with a wire, there´s no way to get the shafts aligned, and one of my priorities was to keep the inlets as short as practically possible.
I´m not really sure that the 50 mm´s really do that much good on this motor, but another priority was to test this installation out this year, so I can concentrate on the downdrafts for next summer. So far, that aim has been achieved, and I hope the 50mm´s will do some good then.  

So far, there´s not been that much track day riding this year, and pretty much the first thing that happened was the annual club championship. In the race I found myself in a group of 3: one other 1100-engned bike, a 749R, and me. My bike was just slightly quicker than the other 1100 (which has hi-comps, DP cams and ported heads), but the 749R pulled a couple of bike lengths towards the end of the straight. I had only done a crude map by adjusting the values acc to the difference in injector flow values. I´m pretty sure there is something to gain here, since it felt very rich. I had hoped to get the bike dyno´d and mapped by now, but that has not happened yet. So for the next track day I have borrowed the Microtec road-tune kit from my friend. Some 0-load testing in my garage has indicted A/F values of 10 or 11:1, and adjusting that to 13:1 or so has improved the feel while trundling up and down the street in front of the house. Let´s see, and hope it will not rain 😊

2021-06-19 10.27.50 by torbjörn bergström, on Flickr

For next year, I hope to have the downdrafts with with proper squish combustion chambers and these parts in them on the motor.    

2021-05-06 09.13.15 by torbjörn bergström, on Flickr

Kind regards,
Torbjörn.

« Last Edit: July 08, 2021, 04:47:26 AM by MonsterHPD » Logged

Monster 900-2002 (sold, alive and well in the UK), 749R / 1100 HYM combo for track days, wifes / my Monster Dark 800-2003 (not entirely "Dark" anymore and a personal favourite) , 50% of 900SSie -2000 track bike for rainy days-soon with tuned ST2 motor and Nemesis ECU.
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« Reply #196 on: July 08, 2021, 10:31:02 AM »

Great work! Thanks for the update. chug

So first a test in principle of 50mm TB's , then the downdraught version with updated heads. Exciting project. I'm very interested in the dyno results that's for sure. It will be interesting to see if there are changes in power characteristics/engine character rather than just an increase in peak/high rpm hp.
I wonder about the potential of fitting Corse Dynamics/WASP style velocity stack to those TB's.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2021, 10:36:14 AM by koko64 » Logged

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« Reply #197 on: July 08, 2021, 05:33:51 PM »

Great work!!
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« Reply #198 on: July 09, 2021, 01:15:39 AM »

Well,
it´s a test of the 50 mm TB´s and the Proservice-modified heads (ported, +1 mm valves inlet and exhaust). The ports look different to much of what I have seen, so I was curious now that I had the opportunity to test them.
As for the TB`s, I wanted to get the operation part of the TB´s tested and out of the way before I try the downdraft heads.

I have been thinking about an installation along the lines of the WASP installation, and did as much as I could while retaining the K&N filters I already have. I did not want to buy new ones that might not fit later. But the WASP installation seems to be using K&N filters, I´ll have to see if I can find those filters (conical, with a large mounting flange) ... thanks for the tip.

Kind regards,
Torbjörn.   
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Monster 900-2002 (sold, alive and well in the UK), 749R / 1100 HYM combo for track days, wifes / my Monster Dark 800-2003 (not entirely "Dark" anymore and a personal favourite) , 50% of 900SSie -2000 track bike for rainy days-soon with tuned ST2 motor and Nemesis ECU.
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« Reply #199 on: July 15, 2021, 01:35:56 PM »

How are the ports different?
« Last Edit: July 15, 2021, 01:39:17 PM by koko64 » Logged

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« Reply #200 on: July 16, 2021, 12:24:02 AM »

I posted some pics of the Proservice-modified ports earlier in the tread, and the main points as I see them:

Same diameter (more or less) at the flange as the stock port, port floor filled out and the small turn / port floor turn towards the valve made very gradual. Both valves are +1 mm.

In contrast, the Biggelaar-ported heads have the inlet at the flange taken out to approx 45 mm (if memory serves), mostly at the bottom, and not too much change close to the valve.

I don´t know which is best, but to my amateurish eyes, the Proservice approach should be the better one. I had hoped to have dyno´ed the bike by now, but is has not happened, so I have had my first attempt at a road-tune mapping (at load) at a track day earlier this week, using the Microtec equipment (pic above).

The first results inidcated my finger-in-the-air map for the 50 mm throttles with the bigger injectors was wildly rich also at bigger throttle openings and higher revs, at points around 20% rich. I hope a proper A/F at around 12.8:1 will give some results power-wise , but you really need a dyno session to really tell if / how things have changed.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2021, 12:26:49 AM by MonsterHPD » Logged

Monster 900-2002 (sold, alive and well in the UK), 749R / 1100 HYM combo for track days, wifes / my Monster Dark 800-2003 (not entirely "Dark" anymore and a personal favourite) , 50% of 900SSie -2000 track bike for rainy days-soon with tuned ST2 motor and Nemesis ECU.
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« Reply #201 on: September 22, 2021, 12:28:40 PM »

Well, that´s another summer done, and considering the circumstances with Corona and so on, it´s been a good summer as far as track day riding is concerned.

The next few trackdays after the club championship I ran the Microtec road-tune kit on the track bike, and it works really well. Of course it has it´s drawbacks as well, since you can choose any one out of maximum 3 of pre-defined AF values in any of the ECU map throttle / RPM points. So any mapping will just be as good as the AF values chosen, but it´s a very good start. Unfortunately, the dyno facility has not been available so far this year, so I may have to be content with the bike running well, no idea just what the engine work may have resulted in. It could be worse.

The starting behaviour of the bike has also improved; the Microtec ahs starting enrichment maps that can be manipulated, and I have leaned them out pretty extensively. This, in combination with an external quick-connect starting battery to help the on-board Li-Ion battery in the morning with a cold motor has helped immensely.

There was a problem with ignition cables and CF belt covers; there was quite a bit of sparking-over between the cables and the covers. Since the originals are so expensive I´ve tried to find an alternative, but in the end I gave in and bought new cables for the cables on the cover side. However, upon investigating all the part numbers for the various cables, it turned out that Duc part # 67110221A cost “just” approx. EUR22, while all the others were approx. EUR 65 or so. Probably someone at Ducati made an error, since the very normal cable on the other side is approx. EUR 65 …. 
Since I don´t particuarily care for the CF covers, I put on the originals, not so pretty but not electrically conductive.

2021-08-16 15.30.41 by torbjörn bergström, on Flickr

As already reported, I´ve had problems with the STM slipper clutch, slipping in both directions. However, the bike is really hard to ride on the twistier parts of a track with an ordinary clutch; any curve that need transiting to a downshift from an acceleration mode requires extreme caution with the clutch and throttle. Let the clutch out too soon, and / or with too low engine RPM, ant the rear wheel will send you pogoing towards the outside of the curve. So I decided it was time to give the STM another try.  Luckily, I have two similar clutches, one older that used to work perfectly on the old M900, and the newer one that started acting up halfway inte the season a couple of years ago.  As I laid out the parts side by side one detail stood out: The special steel plate that goes between the clutch basket and the slipper hub was worn on the old, and prisitine on the new one. Very likely the mechanic had forgotten the instruction from STM: “Start with a friction disc” and started with a steel disc as per normal Ducati practice. That will let the steel disc hang up on the stepped special plate on the STM, reducing spring pressure on the disc pack. I will have to have a word or two with that mechanic ….. anyway, it seemed to work well enough on these last two track days of the year.

20210823_184927 by torbjörn bergström, on Flickr

I have also added two teeth to the rear sprocket. On the advice of a fellow 2V rider, I had chosen final gearing to give (almost) the same overall gearing in 6th with the present close-ratio box as with the older wide-ratio box. With this gearing I almost never used 6th, and felt fine on the twisty track. It will be interesting to see how that will work out on the faster tracks next year.

I was due to visit the fastest track in Sweden, but they are also the toughest on noise. Having measured my bike on several tracks this summer, and seeing a worst of 98 dB(A), I decided to stay at home, they have a very sophisticated measuring system and a 95 dB limit. Actually, they have a “fill the bucket” system, with a limited amount of noise during each hour. Make a lot of noise the first 10 minutes, and no-one rides fir the next 50 minutes …. I did not want to risk that so I stayed at home. One project for the winter will be to try to add a pre-silencer while keeping headers equal-length without getting too long (while keeping the 2-1 layout, since I like that).

Last summer I did not ride the bike, Corona and piston ring problem (that mechanic again ….), but the summer before that I still had the chatter problems. To try another approach, I modified the compression pistons to get more port area and less “shim stick area” (narrower seal surfaces).

20191111_213231 by torbjörn bergström, on Flickr

I also went from a shim stack with a cross-over shim to one with a pre-load shim (a thicker ring shim and thinner centering shim next to the piston face shim). This pre-loads the shim stack, basically similar to how the suspension springs are installed with preload.
I also renewed the swing am bearings. They were not seized, but they sure were not pretty … another basic issue that gets overlooked when “bigger” projects gets all the attention.

2021-04-18 10.55.45 by torbjörn bergström, on Flickr

Anyway, for whatever reason, there´s not been a hint of chatter this summer. Maybe I´ve just been slower, but not so slow as was sufficient to get the chatter going previously. So, suspension will stay the same for next year.   

I have been very unhappy with the VERY primitive mounting of the dash, and since it turned out to be about as much work to make a frame for the dash as to put the top fairing on as well, that´s what I did. In the end, it turned out to be a 4-day operation in the workshop of my pal, and I may need to adjust the position later, but it has worked OK without being in the way or anything. I may get another one later, but it will stay for now, hopefully with some paint next summer.                 

Sviestad 1 by torbjörn bergström, on Flickr

A couple of weeks ago, the metereologists (don´t know if I got that spelling right … ) told us that the coming Friday would be the last warm day of the summer …. So I took the opportunity to take the M800 for a spin on the road, for a change. It turned out to be a really nice trip, ant the met´s were about right.

Sensommar by torbjörn bergström, on Flickr     

Well, that´s it for now. Back to the workshop 😊
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Monster 900-2002 (sold, alive and well in the UK), 749R / 1100 HYM combo for track days, wifes / my Monster Dark 800-2003 (not entirely "Dark" anymore and a personal favourite) , 50% of 900SSie -2000 track bike for rainy days-soon with tuned ST2 motor and Nemesis ECU.
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« Reply #202 on: September 22, 2021, 06:23:42 PM »

Thanks for the update.
Yeah, I like a slipper clutch on the track but not on the street
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« Reply #203 on: September 24, 2021, 11:18:59 PM »

Thanks for the update.
Yeah, I like a slipper clutch on the track but not on the street

The STM is not bad on the road, first time I thought I'd been fooled .... but I rode a friends 900ss with another make slipper. It was like beeing back in my old SAAB 96 with the free-wheel action. Not nice at all ....
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Monster 900-2002 (sold, alive and well in the UK), 749R / 1100 HYM combo for track days, wifes / my Monster Dark 800-2003 (not entirely "Dark" anymore and a personal favourite) , 50% of 900SSie -2000 track bike for rainy days-soon with tuned ST2 motor and Nemesis ECU.
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« Reply #204 on: September 25, 2021, 02:05:20 AM »

Thx for writeup.

Where did you buy ignition cables?
Had the same problem on VE cover side,
Biscaya charged me 85 EU...
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« Reply #205 on: September 25, 2021, 12:37:08 PM »

Thx for writeup.

Where did you buy ignition cables?
Had the same problem on VE cover side,
Biscaya charged me 85 EU...

Biscaya. It's just that only part #  with the semi-sensible price.
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Monster 900-2002 (sold, alive and well in the UK), 749R / 1100 HYM combo for track days, wifes / my Monster Dark 800-2003 (not entirely "Dark" anymore and a personal favourite) , 50% of 900SSie -2000 track bike for rainy days-soon with tuned ST2 motor and Nemesis ECU.
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« Reply #206 on: September 26, 2021, 09:26:56 AM »

Looking forward to further updates waytogo. Thanks again for sharing.

Have you booked in some dyno time?
Any thoughts on how the 50mm TBs feel? Any difference in throttle response or corner exit? Or was the difference only in top speed on the straights?
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« Reply #207 on: September 27, 2021, 12:16:45 AM »

Looking forward to further updates waytogo. Thanks again for sharing.

Have you booked in some dyno time?
Any thoughts on how the 50mm TBs feel? Any difference in throttle response or corner exit? Or was the difference only in top speed on the straights?

You´re welcome, I hope you are not the only one to find this at least slightly interesting.

I have not booked any dyno time; the one where I could do the dynoing so far has not been available for a while, and the other one where I asked has not bothered to respond. I might skip that, since I have a lot of other things to do :-)

I can´t really comment on the 50 mm TB´s other than that (at the end of the summer ...) the bike was running very well, WFO on the track as well as trundling thru the pits. My main aim for this summer as fas as the TB´s are concerned was to get the basic function working: Throttle actuation, basic mapping with the bigger injectors, etc. From that perspective, I´m happy with the results so far.     
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Monster 900-2002 (sold, alive and well in the UK), 749R / 1100 HYM combo for track days, wifes / my Monster Dark 800-2003 (not entirely "Dark" anymore and a personal favourite) , 50% of 900SSie -2000 track bike for rainy days-soon with tuned ST2 motor and Nemesis ECU.
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« Reply #208 on: September 27, 2021, 03:25:01 AM »

At least one more person is interested Grin  I'm sure there are others.
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« Reply #209 on: September 27, 2021, 03:41:30 AM »

 waytogo
At least one more person is interested Grin  I'm sure there are others.
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Monster 900-2002 (sold, alive and well in the UK), 749R / 1100 HYM combo for track days, wifes / my Monster Dark 800-2003 (not entirely "Dark" anymore and a personal favourite) , 50% of 900SSie -2000 track bike for rainy days-soon with tuned ST2 motor and Nemesis ECU.
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