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Author Topic: Showa Blues, part 1&2.  (Read 39912 times)
MonsterHPD
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« Reply #60 on: May 03, 2020, 11:01:32 PM »

Hello,
Seems you have a good fork now. I have not checked your actual measurements, but it seems ok.
I have not checked the actual function of these adjusters, but they do seem to react less to "bouncing" than the other type.
The newer Duc Showas (848 etc) also have this kind of adjusters, and I noticed this characteristcs on them. K-Tech has a replacement adjuster that will react differently. If "better", I don`t know.
I have done some older 41 mm forks with this adjuster type recently, and they all feel a little like you describe. They still work properly in actual use, but may react slightly differently to adjuster settings.
The Gold valves are good, but be careful with the brass screws, they break easily ;  a little bit of old Loctite in the threads  was sufficient on one of mine ....
Racetech has a system with 0.15 mm shims, starting with smaller and adding 0.15x17 mm shims on top for stiffer action. I could dig out their guideline if you like.

Kind regards,
Torbjörn.
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Monster 900-2002 (sold, alive and well in the UK), 749R / 1100 HYM combo for track days, wifes / my Monster Dark 800-2003 (not entirely "Dark" anymore and a personal favourite) , 50% of 900SSie -2000 track bike for rainy days (and days when the other bikes have responded to beeing "tuned" for better function.....probably the bike that has been used by most Duc club members ever :-) )
michael_chicago
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« Reply #61 on: May 04, 2020, 07:41:16 AM »

Thanks, Torbjörn. 

Nice to know about the compression damping mechanism.  I've found the Gold Valve instructions on Racetech's website, so I'm good.

I got pretty excited about having a set of forks laying around that I wouldn't use but could salvage the internals and everything dropped in to the 900SS forks with no modifications required.  I figured someone might benefit, if he doesn't want to do any fabrication, and prefer not to go through the process of adapting yokes, axles, bearings and spacers to use the superbike forks.  There are probably those who prefer to keep their bikes looking original.

« Last Edit: May 04, 2020, 06:28:34 PM by michael_chicago » Logged
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« Reply #62 on: May 04, 2020, 01:19:27 PM »

Keep in mind that Race-Techs recommendations re shim stack is for the race track.

The conditions in the real world often differ.
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« Reply #63 on: May 04, 2020, 06:27:41 PM »

Understood.  Bike is a period racer from the early 90's.  It won't ever see the street again, likely just the occasional AHRMA SE event and track days.  It's a cool bike, though...Pankle rods, twin plugged, Silent Hectik ignition, etc.  I'm going to see how the original forks feel with the Aprilia Showa internals sans Gold valve.  It probably doesn't matter too much, like all my bikes, it will be capable of going much faster than I am.

It sure is fun to tinker with though!
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« Reply #64 on: May 04, 2020, 09:11:34 PM »

Thanks, Torbjörn. 

Nice to know about the compression damping mechanism.  I've found the Gold Valve instructions on Racetech's website, so I'm good.

I got pretty excited about having a set of forks laying around that I wouldn't use but could salvage the internals and everything dropped in to the 900SS forks with no modifications required.  I figured someone might benefit, if he doesn't want to do any fabrication, and prefer not to go through the process of adapting yokes, axles, bearings and spacers to use the superbike forks.  There are probably those who prefer to keep their bikes looking original.



Great to know.
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MonsterHPD
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« Reply #65 on: May 04, 2020, 10:54:11 PM »

Understood.  Bike is a period racer from the early 90's.  It won't ever see the street again, likely just the occasional AHRMA SE event and track days.  It's a cool bike, though...Pankle rods, twin plugged, Silent Hectik ignition, etc.  I'm going to see how the original forks feel with the Aprilia Showa internals sans Gold valve.  It probably doesn't matter too much, like all my bikes, it will be capable of going much faster than I am.

It sure is fun to tinker with though!

Sounds good, most of us don´t need a Panigale (would probably just scare me) to have fun and I also like the tinkering as much as the riding.
Anyway, assuming that the compression pistons are the ordinary Showa "big port" pistons, there´s no benefit by changing to the Gold valves, the difference (if any) in practice is not discernible (in my view, at least). You may need to change the shim set-up; in my view it´s easiest to start from the soft side. Too soft is usually quite easily noticed, too stiff has a way of feeling better than it is, and is tough on the tires.   

You will be able to see results of your adjustments, and to help you a tiewrap around the fork leg to keep track of fork dive will be a good help (assuming you don´t have a data-logger ....) 

Kind regards,
Torbjörn.
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Monster 900-2002 (sold, alive and well in the UK), 749R / 1100 HYM combo for track days, wifes / my Monster Dark 800-2003 (not entirely "Dark" anymore and a personal favourite) , 50% of 900SSie -2000 track bike for rainy days (and days when the other bikes have responded to beeing "tuned" for better function.....probably the bike that has been used by most Duc club members ever :-) )
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« Reply #66 on: November 01, 2020, 08:42:22 AM »

Hi guys, especialy Torbjörn  Smiley Im actualy tuning my supsension on S2R 1K. Im riding sporty on the street, on track too and my biggest problem is, that im now working as motojournalist per 3 years, so i know how should proper setup working   Grin I know, that my S2R will not be as bike with Öhlins EC or TTX gear unless i spend money for this stuff, which will be probably enough money for buy another bike  Grin Yes, i have little budget, so for the rear i go for S4R Showa shock. Im 65kg without gear, basic setup is 30mm sag and it looks better then standard shock. During winter i will be restore it and thinking about Race Tech Gold Valve for them. Is it worth for money or not?

And of corse, next question is the front. Soft springs are well known, so i ll go RT 0.85 to front and thinking again about different valving. I found RT rebound valve, Bitubo makes comp and rebound valving set and here i found your K-tech stuff. What will be the best choice for street/track use about 70/30%? Bitubo says, its racetrack only use, what about other stuff? Will not be too stiff on street? I preffer stiffer bikes but with good response when you feel quality of suspension and you feel that working well and that wheels nice copiing the ground... And for a bonus, in Czech republic we dont have a lot of nice tarmac, but im rather suffer little bit on worse road for nice support.

Can you recommend me solution please? Or is better looking for different gear? S4R or 916/996 forks for example? Thank you very much!

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« Reply #67 on: November 01, 2020, 02:31:28 PM »

I will have to think about this one .... I´ll be back afterI do some research. 
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Monster 900-2002 (sold, alive and well in the UK), 749R / 1100 HYM combo for track days, wifes / my Monster Dark 800-2003 (not entirely "Dark" anymore and a personal favourite) , 50% of 900SSie -2000 track bike for rainy days (and days when the other bikes have responded to beeing "tuned" for better function.....probably the bike that has been used by most Duc club members ever :-) )
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« Reply #68 on: November 04, 2020, 09:54:15 AM »

Hi again.

One question ... do you have the adjustable Show fork on your bike? I have not worked on a S2R (i.e., 1000 cc motor?) so I´m not sure what fork are on them-

   
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Monster 900-2002 (sold, alive and well in the UK), 749R / 1100 HYM combo for track days, wifes / my Monster Dark 800-2003 (not entirely "Dark" anymore and a personal favourite) , 50% of 900SSie -2000 track bike for rainy days (and days when the other bikes have responded to beeing "tuned" for better function.....probably the bike that has been used by most Duc club members ever :-) )
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« Reply #69 on: November 06, 2020, 07:38:46 AM »

Hi, thank for research  waytogo Yes S2R 1k have fully adjustable Showa, i cant say it properly but for first look it looks like same on M1000DS
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« Reply #70 on: November 10, 2020, 01:00:11 PM »

Hello, I have some interesting news, but dont know if its possitive or not. On facebook one guy send me his experience with rebuild S4 Fork, which in his word would be same as at S2R 1000

"I have Racetech gold valves and springs. The valves were a pain in the ass to install because it required modification to the original damper. If I had to do it again, I’d probably consider a cartridge kit. To my knowledge, RaceTech only makes a compression valve for these forks. The valve makes for a more supple and less jarring ride on larger square bumps. The springs are shorter. I’m not sure why they do that but I followed this guys instructions and everything works fine for the last 7000 miles. The spring is also a linear spring rather than a progressive one like stock Ducati."

And here is link to his work: https://waste.org/~knobs/fork_rebuild1.html?fbclid=IwAR0EgeMNyNY48ZOWfuLcNgFWJPU6IAlN820HMEgxmYjJ48fay-S3uhXAX6Y

Is the K-Tech set 20SSK-INT-SHO-13 more plug and play or not? If it will fit...
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MonsterHPD
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« Reply #71 on: November 11, 2020, 01:52:57 AM »

The link does not work on my computer, but for some reason on my phone .... so it looks like the first mod I made to my M900 forks, whih seem to be the same; as far as I know, all adjustable 50/54 mm forks except the SS1000DS are like this.

I don´t remember the gold Valve was any big hassle to install, and maybe there was a slight improvement as far as suppleness was concerned, at least on my 2nd attempt when I made the shim setup the softest in Racetechs shim setup table (I was about 59 kg at the time). I still have the Gold Valves on the shelf, with a broken brass screw which snapped when I tried to install it without first cleaning out the old Loctite. Don´t see the reason to use brass for this screw ...

What you do not get with this set-up is compression damping adjustability, it does almost no difference what you have the adjuster set to (I ran them fully closed, or one click out (there is a slight difference between those two settings).

I´d say the K-teck kit installation is decidedly more work since you have to manufacture the adjuster rod, organize / manufacture a hollow M6 screw for the compression piston / shim assy, and (preferrably) modify the top nut adjuster screw.
The piston in the K-tech kit is more track oriented (due to the smaller ports), but I have used them on road as well with no complaints, really.

So, in short form, the difference between the two solutions is the adjustability of the compression damping. 

As for springs, I use Öhlins springs, there are several springs from them that will fit with proper pre-load tubes.   
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Monster 900-2002 (sold, alive and well in the UK), 749R / 1100 HYM combo for track days, wifes / my Monster Dark 800-2003 (not entirely "Dark" anymore and a personal favourite) , 50% of 900SSie -2000 track bike for rainy days (and days when the other bikes have responded to beeing "tuned" for better function.....probably the bike that has been used by most Duc club members ever :-) )
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« Reply #72 on: November 15, 2020, 12:51:45 PM »

So... At first, thank you a lot for your experiences! At second, after all, i think, i will go through the 0.9 springs (K-tech or can you send your recommendation to proper Ohlins spring? Springs are the same for all Monsters, is it correct?) and only restore serial internals. It looks like a lot of work for mechanic, it will be a lot of money and finally springs+valves+work will be the sime like new cartridges from Adreani, wich i see like the best option for big improvement... SBK forks - new triclamps, restore, springs, 1000DS forks are like golden unicorn...

Last question, do you have some experince with Gold Valves at rear end?
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MonsterHPD
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« Reply #73 on: November 18, 2020, 02:53:03 AM »


Well,
I have an old list where quite a few part numbers are not more available, so supplied from old stock if there are any. I have used the 4745-xx springs, but they are going out of stock. So the list below are just some part numbers from the list, no guarantee. For reerence, a stock Monster spring is OD 38.6ish, wire diameter 5.1 mm.

Description                           
Part no/coulor                          Length     Inner dia.       Outer dia.   wire dia.      Rate   Stroke
Spring,Fr.fork   9 N/mm   04745-90   240             27.7       37.5           4.9              9           140
Spring,Fr.fork 38/287/9.0   08627-90   287     28               38                   5              9           165
Spring,Fr.fork 37.5/250/9.0   08692-90   250     27.7       37.5           4.9              9           143


I have no experience with Gold Valves for rer shocks.
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Monster 900-2002 (sold, alive and well in the UK), 749R / 1100 HYM combo for track days, wifes / my Monster Dark 800-2003 (not entirely "Dark" anymore and a personal favourite) , 50% of 900SSie -2000 track bike for rainy days (and days when the other bikes have responded to beeing "tuned" for better function.....probably the bike that has been used by most Duc club members ever :-) )
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