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Author Topic: Newbie ?'s Downshifting when Coming to a Stop and Shifting from 1st to 2nd  (Read 3089 times)
tlh235
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« on: October 11, 2011, 05:20:47 PM »

On a 11 Monster 696, If i'm doing approx 40-45 in 3rd gear and i need to come to somewhat of a quick stop(not an emergency quick stop but just quick in a way where you don't really have time to do an engine brake down to 2nd and then to 1st in time to come to a slow normal stop....can i do the following, when noticing i'm gonna need to stop, i do the front and back braking as taught in MSF to stop, the question is....as i'm braking and pulling in the clutch to go from 3rd to 2nd to 1st can i do the downshift all the way from 3rd to 2nd to 1st while keeping the clutch pulled or do i need to pull the clutch go from 3rd to 2nd, let out, pull in again and then go from 2nd to 1st.  Sorry if this is a dumb question but during our MSF course we only made it out of 2nd gear like one time and a quick stop wasn't part of that training.  I just want to make sure i'm doing the correct thing.  I know people will actually just come to a stop and then do their shifting down to first but i'm pretty sure that's not the best way to do it.....i'm trying to do things the right way. thanks for any response.

One other question, i've been noticing that when going from 1st to 2nd, the sound of the shift is really different from the shift of 2nd to 3rd, or 3rd to 4th.  is this normal?  There's like a louder click sound when going from 1st to 2nd, when going from 2nd to 3rd, it's more of the low sounding click and that shift is more smooth than 1st to 2nd. 
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thought
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« Reply #1 on: October 11, 2011, 05:59:54 PM »

you can drop or go up as many gears as you want with the clutch pulled in, but keep in mind that in bikes without the APTC or slipper clutch you're going to get some wheel hop if you're dropping too many gears at once.  this is because all the engine braking that you get in lower gears will come in at once.  but since your monster has a APTC clutch, there really wont be too many issues, the clutch will smooth it out on it's own.

and the shifting sound doesnt sound like something that you should worry about.
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Destructobot
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« Reply #2 on: October 11, 2011, 08:13:28 PM »

You could just come to a full stop before you let out the clutch.  Either that or pull clutch, brake until in correct speed range for first gear, blip throttle to match engine speed to transmission speed, and let out the clutch.  I'd try it somewhere other than closing fast on the back end of a stopped SUV to get the hang of it though, since you'll run a risk of locking the rear by letting out the clutch in 1st while grabbing a footfull of rear brake. 
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Buckethead
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« Reply #3 on: October 11, 2011, 08:54:53 PM »

you can drop or go up as many gears as you want with the clutch pulled in, but keep in mind that in bikes without the APTC or slipper clutch you're going to get some wheel hop if you're dropping too many gears at once.  this is because all the engine braking that you get in lower gears will come in at once.  but since your monster has a APTC clutch, there really wont be too many issues, the clutch will smooth it out on it's own.

and the shifting sound doesnt sound like something that you should worry about.

If you let out the clutch while still moving, yes.

But as stated, yes, it's perfectly okay to go from 3rd down to 1st with the clutch pulled in the whole time while you're coming to a stop. I do it all the time. I use engine braking to modulate speed when I know I'm going to still be moving, like going from a 45 to a 35 mph zone, but if I'm coming to a stop I usually just use the brakes.
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Twizted
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« Reply #4 on: October 12, 2011, 04:05:23 AM »


One other question, i've been noticing that when going from 1st to 2nd, the sound of the shift is really different from the shift of 2nd to 3rd, or 3rd to 4th.  is this normal?  There's like a louder click sound when going from 1st to 2nd, when going from 2nd to 3rd, it's more of the low sounding click and that shift is more smooth than 1st to 2nd. 

The different sound you hear when shifting from 1st to 2nd as opposed to the other gears is because you are shifting through neutral as well when you are clicking up to 2nd.
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Slide Panda
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« Reply #5 on: October 12, 2011, 05:01:16 AM »

Ducs always give a bit more of a 'clunk' when going from 2nd to 1st as Twizted noted. That's totally normal.

When it's getting to be not normal is when you cannot or have real difficulty getting from 2nd to 1st or fining neutral without the rear wheel turning. If you find (in the future) you're having that issue it's a sing that you need to bleed the clutch line, or possibly a cleak. Normal, yearly flushing, should keep air out of the line (reason to bleed). So don't neglect this easy maintenance point in the future.

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« Reply #6 on: October 12, 2011, 08:55:09 AM »

If you let out the clutch while still moving, yes.

ah, yeah, forgot to mention that part.  with the clutch pulled in, feel free to drop as many gears as you want.
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« Reply #7 on: October 12, 2011, 10:51:10 AM »

Shifting from 1st to 2nd and vice versa will always have a more significant feel. This has been noticible on every bike I have ever ridden and the "clunk" noise is more pronounced at lower speeds. It is perfectly normal and expected.

3rd to 1st. You are free to do this either way. It is better to be in motion as they are not designed to shift while standing still.
However, it is important to be in the right gear. So when reading your example, I thought stop sign. If you are doing this coming up on a traffic light sometimes they turn green quickly and you dont want to be in 1st when you need to be in 2nd.

Hope that helps.
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tlh235
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« Reply #8 on: October 12, 2011, 03:38:58 PM »

this has all helped alot...thanks alot!!!  Somehow i still think that some type of entry level road course in the MSF is needed.  I took the course(having never ridden a motorcycle before in my life)...a great course for that type of rider.  But in no way was i prepared to get out on a road with traffic.  Riding thru some cones in a parking lot is not true riding to say the least.  and really not ever gettin out of second gear the whole time doesn't do much for shifting and braking skills.   But again for $25 what can you expect.   I've had my bike now for approx 3 months...and i'm still a little on edge out there on the road.  i can't seem to get over the feeling like i'm a guest on the road and i'm just in the cars and trucks way.  I guess buyin 10,000 dollar bike doesn't help that edge as i don't want to do anything that will cause the bike to "explode" out on the road...hahaha.  I'm gettin there and thank the lord i don't have anything to prove...i'm past the stage/age of my life...i'm truly doing this for the enjoyment of riding a motorcycle....so with that said, again i thank you all for your answers to my newbie questions.  i've learned alot from this website and even youtube....the internet does do something other than allow me access to boobies 24/7.  Stay safe out there!!!
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Buckethead
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« Reply #9 on: October 12, 2011, 03:56:24 PM »

the internet does do something other than allow me access to boobies 24/7.  Stay safe out there!!!

There are boobies on the internet?!  Shocked

Why didn't anyone bother to tell me?!  Angry
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CDawg
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« Reply #10 on: October 13, 2011, 05:34:43 AM »

...i need to come to somewhat of a quick stop

If you truly need to stop quickly, you can also just apply as much brake as required and not worry about the clutch for the moment.  As long as you disengage the clutch before you hit 0 mph and  quick tap the shifter to 1st or neutral, you won't stall.

My thinking is if you have to emergency brake, then just focus on braking to the threshhold first.  You (hopefully) will have time to deal with clutch and gear selection once the speed is  under control....the downside is if you need to suddenly gas away, you will be in too high a gear...
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hunduc
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« Reply #11 on: October 14, 2011, 04:02:06 AM »

But in no way was i prepared to get out on a road with traffic.  Riding thru some cones in a parking lot is not true riding to say the least.  and really not ever gettin out of second gear the whole time doesn't do much for shifting and braking skills.   But again for $25 what can you expect.   I've had my bike now for approx 3 months...and i'm still a little on edge out there on the road.  i can't seem to get over the feeling like i'm a guest on the road and i'm just in the cars and trucks way. 

that is not necessarily a bad thing (being on the edge). it is one of the most quoted statistics that the highest chance for being in an accident comes after a year or so, when you start feeling you are comfortable on the road, and you let your guard drop somewhat. i still try to approach riding with the mindset that everybody is trying to kill me out there.
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Kegan
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« Reply #12 on: October 22, 2011, 11:33:13 PM »

This is one of the things that really messed with me when I first got my bike. I'm glad you asked the question (besides this information being reassuring to me); downshifting too quickly and letting the clutch out with each downshift in this situation caused me to lock up my rear wheel and I ended up sliding down the pavement feeling like a beat up idiot. I agree wholeheartedly regarding feeling on edge and MSF failing to include things like this.
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Buckethead
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« Reply #13 on: October 23, 2011, 12:16:29 AM »

Your bike is probably going to have a WHOLE lot more engine brake potential than anything you rode in the MSF course.

Twins, in general, have MUCH more engine braking than I-4's. Or single-cylinder 250's that get beat on like rented mules.

To reiterate: YOU DON'T HAVE TO LET THE CLUTCH OUT BETWEEN EACH DOWNSHIFT ON A DUCATI.

It's entirely possible/acceptable to pull in the clutch whilst doing 45 in 3rd gear, then downshift twice while holding in the clutch, riding BOTH brakes until you STOP.

The biggest thing to keep in mind about engine braking is that it doesn't cause your brake lights to light up.

I use my engine braking ability A LOT. But when there's someone behind me, I make a conscious effort to use my rear brake to make sure my BRAKE LIGHTS flash. If I were just using engine braking, my lights wouldn't tell the guy behind me that I'm slowing down.

ALSO: The MSF BRC is designed to make sure you know how the controls on your moto work. It is not designed to prepare you for "real world" situations, except those involving parking-lot speeds.

I, too, was freaked out by highway speeds for a LONG while. It's one of those things you get used to. Kinda.

I am still hyper-aware of my vulnerability on the highway. I am the easiest target out there.

The way I deal with that is that I try to maintain 360 degree "hyper" awareness. I am also a very "communicative" driver.

Assert your lane position. Make use of your horn. Be pro-active: if someone puts you in their blind spot, get out of it. Brake. Accelerate. Change lanes. Realize where you are in relation to other people and MANAGE YOUR SPACE.

[/rant]
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Duc796canada
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« Reply #14 on: October 26, 2011, 03:08:08 PM »

Your bike is probably going to have a WHOLE lot more engine brake potential than anything you rode in the MSF course.

Twins, in general, have MUCH more engine braking than I-4's. Or single-cylinder 250's that get beat on like rented mules.

To reiterate: YOU DON'T HAVE TO LET THE CLUTCH OUT BETWEEN EACH DOWNSHIFT ON A DUCATI.

It's entirely possible/acceptable to pull in the clutch whilst doing 45 in 3rd gear, then downshift twice while holding in the clutch, riding BOTH brakes until you STOP.

The biggest thing to keep in mind about engine braking is that it doesn't cause your brake lights to light up.

I use my engine braking ability A LOT. But when there's someone behind me, I make a conscious effort to use my rear brake to make sure my BRAKE LIGHTS flash. If I were just using engine braking, my lights wouldn't tell the guy behind me that I'm slowing down.

ALSO: The MSF BRC is designed to make sure you know how the controls on your moto work. It is not designed to prepare you for "real world" situations, except those involving parking-lot speeds.

I, too, was freaked out by highway speeds for a LONG while. It's one of those things you get used to. Kinda.

I am still hyper-aware of my vulnerability on the highway. I am the easiest target out there.

The way I deal with that is that I try to maintain 360 degree "hyper" awareness. I am also a very "communicative" driver.

Assert your lane position. Make use of your horn. Be pro-active: if someone puts you in their blind spot, get out of it. Brake. Accelerate. Change lanes. Realize where you are in relation to other people and MANAGE YOUR SPACE.

[/rant]
If I could add as well, even when you think you are right, don't think you are right on a motorcycle, cars/trucks  will win always and there are some idiots that drive cars who know this and will bully you!! My MSF instructor told us in class, that a car is perfectly safe, until you put the idiot in it! So any car you see, has an idiot in it and assume they will do something idiotic!! Smiley
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