Swingarm, shaft, cases, rearsets - movement confusion. (SSSA) incl Gilles soluti

[stopintime]

I joined in a "rearsets" thread jack here:
http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=20280.15

We discuss the different parts of the cases/shaft/swingarm/rearsets assembly - regarding possible aftermarket rearsets design flaws.

Which parts are supposed to move?

I know about the swingarm pinch bolt (left side), but unsure if the pinch bolt only secures the shaft from moving sideways or if it actually holds the shaft firm relative to the swingarm. If so (firm), the shaft must move in the cases AND in the rearsets.

If the pinch bolt only secures the shaft from moving sideways, the movement will only/also happen by the swingarm rotating on the shaft - allowing the shaft to NOT rotate, possibly only SOME shaft rotation.

My guess is that the natural movement is: a little in the cases and a little by the swingarm around the shaft. (?)

The rearsets design flaw could be that their base plates have a surface which is too large, it will rub against the swingarm and/or main outside nut. Stock and CycleCat have the rubber bushing with a inside collar. The shaft and main outside nut have shoulders to separate the swingarm from the rearsets and the rearsets from the main outside nut.

I have no idea if most aftermarket rearsets will rub or not, but it would be nice to know....

Other than that, I'm curious about the poorly lubricated swingarm movement. No bearings, right?

[Speeddog]

~~~~snip~~~~
Which parts are supposed to move?

I know about the swingarm pinch bolt (left side), but unsure if the pinch bolt only secures the shaft from moving sideways or if it actually holds the shaft firm relative to the swingarm. If so (firm), the shaft must move in the cases AND in the rearsets.

~~~~snip~~~~

The pinch bolt secures the shaft to the swingarm, so it can't move sideways, and it does rotate along with the swingarm.

[stopintime]

The pinch bolt secures the shaft to the swingarm, so it can't move sideways, and it does rotate along with the swingarm.

So, the friction is in the cases? You see, I thought I read in the shop manual that the swingarm/shaft connection should be greased and it didn't say anything about the case/shaft surfaces (could be wrong, will check again)

[Speeddog]

There's bearings in the crankcases to allow the shaft to rotate smoothly.

There are shim washers between the swingarm and crankcases, to ensure minimum sideways freeplay, and serve as a bearing surface for side loads.

[stopintime]

There's bearings in the crankcases to allow the shaft to rotate smoothly.
..................

I would expect nothing less, but I started to think there weren't - good to know!

...................

There are shim washers between the swingarm and crankcases, to ensure minimum sideways freeplay, and serve as a bearing surface for side loads.

Yup, I just re-read that part too


Do you also know if the main nut will turn all the way to the shaft, without putting substantial pressure on the rearsets' rubber-bushing-inside-collar? (To allow the shaft and it's main nut to rotate without anything rubbing aginst the rearsets)

Thanks!

[DucLeone]

the side to side play is restricted due to a C-lip on the shaft on each side

[stopintime]

the side to side play is restricted due to a C-lip on the shaft on each side

I noticed that, but what's the point if the shaft is held in place by the swingarm's left side pinch bolt?

Checked my CycleCats just now. On those there is definitely no rubbing against their base plate.

[n4s]

So..... do aftermarket rear sets require a rubber bushing to operate properly?... I tried working my way through the explanations above but I sort of got lost  I have some rizoma's for my s4rs that I haven't mounted yet, and want to make sure they will work properly without damaging anything. 

[stopintime]

So..... do aftermarket rear sets require a rubber bushing to operate properly?... I tried working my way through the explanations above but I sort of got lost  I have some rizoma's for my s4rs that I haven't mounted yet, and want to make sure they will work properly without damaging anything. 

I don't think they require it, the rubber is there to reduce vibration.

The issue is about the base plate surface. Stock, Ducati Performance (?) and CycleCat have the rubber bushing which make them narrow in that area. If some of the aftermarket rearsets are not narrow enough, they might rub against the swingarm and/or the main outside nut. Mind you, I'm not saying they have design flaws - but that's what I'm trying to find out. If they are narrow enough, I see no problem. Might be an issue with some and not with others. The other thread suggests GillesTooling issues. I have emailed them to see what they think.

If you go ahead mounting yours I suggest counting the maximum turns on the main nut. Count how many turns it takes to unscrew the nut, count again with the rearsets off and then count how many turns it takes to secure the Rizomas. (somehow mark the nut to make counting easier) If the number of turns is equal - one less problem, no rubbing against the nut then. Then check if there's rubbing against the swingarm - there should be no contact.

Also, when disassembling the rearsets make sure the bike is on a rear stand - I think the side stand is loose when you take off rearsets - and don't put it down until fully reassembled.

Good luck and please post the result

[n4s]

I don't think they require it, the rubber is there to reduce vibration.

The issue is about the base plate surface. Stock, Ducati Performance (?) and CycleCat have the rubber bushing which make them narrow in that area. If some of the aftermarket rearsets are not narrow enough, they might rub against the swingarm and/or the main outside nut. Mind you, I'm not saying they have design flaws - but that's what I'm trying to find out. If they are narrow enough, I see no problem. Might be an issue with some and not with others. The other thread suggests GillesTooling issues. I have emailed them to see what they think.

If you go ahead mounting yours I suggest counting the maximum turns on the main nut. Count how many turns it takes to unscrew the nut, count again with the rearsets off and then count how many turns it takes to secure the Rizomas. (somehow mark the nut to make counting easier) If the number of turns is equal - one less problem, no rubbing against the nut then. Then check if there's rubbing against the swingarm - there should be no contact.

Also, when disassembling the rearsets make sure the bike is on a rear stand - I think the side stand is loose when you take off rearsets - and don't put it down until fully reassembled.

Good luck and please post the result

Thks!!!!!!!! 

[S21FOLGORE]

Actually, it's pretty simple (to see whether it works or not.)
Look at the Gilles picture here.
http://www.oppracing.com/images/13461-gilles-tooling-vcr-rear-sets-ducati-monster-s2r-2004-2008-s4r-rs-2003-2008/?price_flag=us
Around the hole where the pivot bolt (also acts as foot peg bracket mounting bolt) goes in, as you can see, there's nothing. The bolt directly goes on foot peg bracket.
IF, your Rizoma looks like this, or there's just a thin rubber / metal washer between the bolt and foot peg bracket, that design will cause suspension binding up.
If there's thick rubber bushing + metal collar inside, it will work like stock just fine.
If there's bearing fitted, it works even better.

[stopintime]

.....................
Around the hole where the pivot bolt (also acts as foot peg bracket mounting bolt) goes in, as you can see, there's nothing. The bolt directly goes on foot peg bracket.
..................

I think we're getting closer now....

The swingarm shaft a.k.a. pivot bolt a.k.a. foot peg bracket mounting bolt has a shoulder which should keep the rearset base plate from touching the swingarm. Also, the shaft should be long enough to keep the fully fastened main nut from touching the rearset base plate. Well, maybe touching, but not binding.
If those conditions are met, the only rubbing will be between the slightly rotating shaft and the inside of
the base plate hole - which is OK, maybe add an occasional lube job.

On the other hand, if the rearset base plate is too wide/thick to allow free movement of
the shaft, swingarm and main nut = potential trouble.

Folgore: are you sure the Gilles' base plate is too wide? If it is, you would "only" have to machine out a little material to make it work properly.

We should reach a consensus here, not to alarm aftermarket users or potential buyers without reason. If we find a valid consern we can report it to the manufacturers and/or potential buyers.

[n4s]

Actually, it's pretty simple (to see whether it works or not.)
Look at the Gilles picture here.
http://www.oppracing.com/images/13461-gilles-tooling-vcr-rear-sets-ducati-monster-s2r-2004-2008-s4r-rs-2003-2008/?price_flag=us
Around the hole where the pivot bolt (also acts as foot peg bracket mounting bolt) goes in, as you can see, there's nothing. The bolt directly goes on foot peg bracket.
IF, your Rizoma looks like this, or there's just a thin rubber / metal washer between the bolt and foot peg bracket, that design will cause suspension binding up.
If there's thick rubber bushing + metal collar inside, it will work like stock just fine.
If there's bearing fitted, it works even better.

Ahhhhh.. now I get it!!! I just checked my rizoma rearsets and there is indeed a thick metal bushing inside the hole (in fact they put a zip tie there to make sure it doesn't fall out in the package)!!!! Whew. Tks for the explanations folgore and stopintime!! Now I just got to get my lazy azz off the couch to install them

[stopintime]

Ahhhhh.. now I get it!!! I just checked my rizoma rearsets and there is indeed a thick metal bushing inside the hole (in fact they put a zip tie there to make sure it doesn't fall out in the package)!!!! Whew. Tks for the explanations folgore and stopintime!! Now I just got to get my lazy azz off the couch to install them

Is that thick metal bushing slightly wider than the base plate it goes through?

[n4s]

Is that thick metal bushing slightly wider than the base plate it goes through?

I think it is, but I'll double check tonight and confirm.