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Author Topic: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates  (Read 397619 times)
Meerkat
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« Reply #1245 on: December 07, 2010, 09:36:12 PM »

i've poked around and can't find anything -- nylon isn't like PE or fibreglass.  it's slippery.  also, it needs to be impervious to ethanol.  the old kreme forumulation used polyurethane which is great with gasoline, but .. not so great with ethanol.. it also dried "flexible" like the blue lightning claims to do..   that's the only 1-part stuff i know of..  all the 2-part stuff dries semi-hard but is impervious to ethanol once dried.

I emailed the blue lightening people for an MSDS which I hope sheds some light on this stuff's composition. We'll see if they respond.
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« Reply #1246 on: December 08, 2010, 02:53:47 PM »

Who says?

Get me a blow molded HDPE tank...

I'd love to prove you wrong. Wink

The only issues with painting any plastic is adhesion. There are materials to solve that. Now if the adhesion issues are due to the material 'sweating' fuel, as with PEX, all bets are off.



I didn't see the correct answer back when this was posted, so... (sorry if I missed it):

...the issue with HDPE is that it off-gases. This is why they can't be painted...and why Chris Kelley's HDPE tanks aren't painted. Maybe he'll lend you one to try though?  Smiley

HDPE also expands A LOT more than any metal, up to 10-15 times as much. Wall thickness does not have an effect at mitigating this...at least not for any reasonable thickness applicable to a gas tank. I don't know if it's enough to fail paint, as I don't know how flexible paint is, but I would guess it is.
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« Reply #1247 on: December 08, 2010, 05:41:52 PM »

I didn't see the correct answer back when this was posted, so... (sorry if I missed it):

...the issue with HDPE is that it off-gases. This is why they can't be painted...and why Chris Kelley's HDPE tanks aren't painted. Maybe he'll lend you one to try though?  Smiley

HDPE also expands A LOT more than any metal, up to 10-15 times as much. Wall thickness does not have an effect at mitigating this...at least not for any reasonable thickness applicable to a gas tank. I don't know if it's enough to fail paint, as I don't know how flexible paint is, but I would guess it is.
I think the expansion would be a non issue. Urethanes are pretty flexible.

Chris asked me if I wanted to try painting one. After listening to his explanation I figured why bother.

I for one will never own a gas tank that off gasses fuel...seems so wrong.
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« Reply #1248 on: December 08, 2010, 08:47:15 PM »


For what its worth, I was chatting with the local dealer the other day and he mentioned that he has only done 3 tank replacements. He sells 150-200 bikes per year. He blamed the expansion problems on two things, ethanol and the emissions canister. He credited his low replacement rate to that fact that he makes a habit of ripping off all that emissions shit before his bikes ever leave the store.  Cheesy

sac
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« Reply #1249 on: December 08, 2010, 08:59:06 PM »

For what its worth, I was chatting with the local dealer...he makes a habit of ripping off all that emissions shit before his bikes ever leave the store.  Cheesy

sac

Isn't that patently illegal, for a dealer to do such things? As in like a federal offense or something? Seems like the EPA could have his ass for that.
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« Reply #1250 on: December 08, 2010, 10:58:08 PM »

For what its worth, I was chatting with the local dealer the other day and he mentioned that he has only done 3 tank replacements. He sells 150-200 bikes per year. He blamed the expansion problems on two things, ethanol and the emissions canister. He credited his low replacement rate to that fact that he makes a habit of ripping off all that emissions shit before his bikes ever leave the store.  Cheesy

sac

I think there may be something to the charcoal canister emissions crap being part of the cause.  I have yet to replace my tank and have had the bike since new back in December of 2007 and ditching the canister and it's connecting hoses was one of my first mods.  I also have the DP Tank Bra which may be preventing any side-ward expansion but I have noticed very slight forward expansion as it's been getting to be a little tighter fit for the tank lock up by the ignition.  I don't think it's enough to get a replacement just yet.  If and when I do, I definitely plan on getting it lined with Caswell or some other such product just to avoid having to deal with it again.
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« Reply #1251 on: December 09, 2010, 03:14:21 AM »

My 07 S4RS has had the canister removed since day 1. My second replacement tank has just arrived. My opinion, based on my personal experience is that the canister has 0 effect on the expansion problem...It's ethanol incompatability, period.
I will coat the new tank with Caswells before it ever has gas in it and update this thread with my feedback on how it goes. Unless I've missed somthing in the last 84 pages, no one has actually performed this process themselves.
Best regards,
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« Reply #1252 on: December 09, 2010, 04:02:03 AM »

Isn't that patently illegal, for a dealer to do such things? As in like a federal offense or something? Seems like the EPA could have his ass for that.

The vapor emissions canister is required in California and the CARB states.
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« Reply #1253 on: December 09, 2010, 04:03:21 AM »

My 07 S4RS has had the canister removed since day 1. My second replacement tank has just arrived. My opinion, based on my personal experience is that the canister has 0 effect on the expansion problem

I agree.  the vapor canister doesn't impede pressure releasing, on the contrary, it actually provides a "trouble-free" exit

Quote
...It's ethanol incompatability, period.

ethanol AND water.

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« Reply #1254 on: December 09, 2010, 04:32:26 AM »

I agree.  the vapor canister doesn't impede pressure releasing, on the contrary, it actually provides a "trouble-free" exit

<snip>

Unless they clog, which they eventually do.
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« Reply #1255 on: December 09, 2010, 04:37:10 AM »

Unless they clog, which they eventually do.

i've never seen that, then again, they get dumped pretty quickly.  but that's the first i've heard.  what clogs them?  they are a closed system, so the only things that can get in are vapor..  when i picked up my '98 900fe, i found the canister under the front fairing (where I like to mount the oil cooler) and removed it -- it wasn't clogged, just 3 lbs of crap off the bike!
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« Reply #1256 on: December 09, 2010, 05:51:07 AM »

Seems like any way you look at it - there is a vicious circle of ever-tightening regulations and laws that are incompatible with each other and the vehicles they apply to.
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« Reply #1257 on: December 09, 2010, 02:01:31 PM »

i've never seen that, then again, they get dumped pretty quickly.  but that's the first i've heard.  what clogs them?  they are a closed system, so the only things that can get in are vapor..  when i picked up my '98 900fe, i found the canister under the front fairing (where I like to mount the oil cooler) and removed it -- it wasn't clogged, just 3 lbs of crap off the bike!

The charcoal gradually compacts.  It usually takes a long time and since most of the bikes loose them early in life it is rare.  The other "clogging" problem is people over stuffing the tank.  Fuel gets warm, expands and soaks the canister which also causes rich running.  I had to change one on my buddie's BMW due to restriction.  They are also semi closed.  One hose to the tank, one to the manifolds, one vented to the atmosphere.
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« Reply #1258 on: December 09, 2010, 03:26:58 PM »

07 S2R1K silver with black stripe warranty tank replacement
10-08-10: First trip to Coleman's for pictures and paperwork to submit warranty claim. Told I would have to leave bike or deposit once warranty work was approved.
11-11-10: Notified by Coleman's that warranty replacement was approved and tank ordered. Updated that I wouldn't need to leave bike or deposit, but requested to bring bike in within 2 weeks after tank arrives.
12-04-10: Coleman's called to let me know that tank had arrived.
12-07-10: Dropped off bike to have the tank replaced. Supposed to be ready for pickup tomorrow.

Picked up the s2r from Coleman's with the new tank. Looks great, works great. Was damn glad I had on my leathers to block the wind, cuz it was COLD at speed. [moto]
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« Reply #1259 on: December 09, 2010, 03:29:29 PM »

it was COLD at speed. [moto]

make the beast with two backs YES it is.  Doood, it's like 28 out there, standing still!!
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