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Author Topic: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates  (Read 340209 times)
ducatiz
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« on: June 09, 2009, 11:56:37 AM »

Update #4  11-Oct-2010

If you have been told by a dealer any of the following, PLEASE PM ME with your contact info, i.e. name, email, phone #, and the dealer you dealt with.  I will be taking this directly to a meeting with my contacts at Ducati.

  • You have to have a leaking tank before we will replace it.
  • You have to leave a deposit to get your replacement tank
  • You have to leave your bike with us until the new tank comes in
  • Ducati isn't replacing tanks merely for expansion
  • Your bike is out of warranty, no replacement

etc

Also, if you have sold your bike due to the tank issue, please contact me as above.

Thanks

Izaak

Update #3a    28-Aug-2010:  Research links FYI
Some of you have asked for more information on the Ethanol/Water/Nylon interaction.  Some of the info I have is proprietary and I can't post it, but all of the following have the same or similar info and are public.  

Problems with E10/Ethanol absorbing water and then separating are well known, thanks to the boat industry, and manufacturers of polyamides (all) have known for years that (uncoated/untreated) Nylons absorb water in varying degrees depending on the type.  PA6, the Nylon used in your tank, is probably one of the more aggressive absorbers.  (Note: polyamides are a family of materials).

The last PA6 note mentions that PA6 can absorb moisture to 8% of its weight, and that is from a manufacturer of PA6 parts.  I wonder if ~anyone~ at Acerbis/Ducati did any research on PA6 before deciding to use it for a gas tank.


Footnotes:
On Nylon 6/PA6
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/pola.1993.080310119/abstract
http://www.dsm.com/en_US/html/dep/akulonmoisture.htm
http://www.springerlink.com/content/h046820627255320/
http://www.zellamid.com/show.aspx?SP=2&url=202PA6

On Ethanol adsorption of water
http://www.springerlink.com/content/j2x43q45660x5617/
http://www.oregon.gov/OSMB/news/E10.shtml


UPDATE #3 10-Aug-2010 What is known so far:

1.  Ducati is replacing every tank that comes in with any significant deformation.  The main things to look for are a) spreading on the frame mounts (one rubber bumper on each bottom side) b) ripples in the surface or c) pressing against the keyswitch

2.  The correct procedure is to go to a dealer and have the tank inspected.  Some folks have had problems with some dealers not wanting to deal with the tank or claiming Ducati is not replacing the tanks.  So far, this has borne out to be just dealers with incorrect info.

3.  The tanks are made from Nylon 6/6, aka PA6 or Polyamide 6.  They are made by Acerbis.

4.  Nylon 6/6 absorbs water.  Ethanol wicks moisture from the air and gravity causes the water to weigh down the ethanol so that it separates from the gasoline solution.  This means you end up with a pool of water at the bottom of your tank which is readily absorbed by the nylon surface.

5.  I do not know if Acerbis/Ducati coats the interior of the tanks.  I do not believe they do.

6.  Other bikes have had the same type of problem:  Multistradas and Sport Classics.  I have not talked to anyone with an SBK yet, but I have heard rumors those as well.  

7.  Some Multistrada owners got new tanks and had them coated with Caswell's liner.  I have gotten into contact with a few of these folks and so far, they are happy with the result.  Some have had the coating for a year now.

8.  Ducati NA is actively looking into solutions.

9.  I have spoken with the Office of Defects Investigation at NHTSA and have presented to them the data on the problem.  They may open an investigation given the number of complaints thus far.  More reports can only help push this effort.

10.  Ducati NA seems to be engaged, but not to the extent we'd all like them to be.  That doesn't mean a solution isn't coming, but it also doesn't mean a solution is coming at all.  The best thing for me to do is continue working with them until I am convinced there is no more effort on their part.  I do not currently have a timeline, there is no statute of limitations for a defect suit of this type.



UPDATE #2 17-Jun-2010 Please check out HeMan's post on how to inspect your tank for signs of expansion: http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=39604.0

UPDATE  ***I am collecting stats on which bikes are having the tank problem and what (if any) mods may be involved.  You have to be on my list (see signup below) to receive the survey link.  That's the only way I can prevent crap responses from getting in.

Please sign up to the list to get the survey link if you haven't yet.  If you are on the list, check your email.

**************



Please see this previous post:
http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=20672.0

I am putting together a list of folks who are having problems with their plastic tank expanding.  

If enough people sign up, I'll draft a letter to Ducati NA explaining the problem and ask for them to remedy.  My feeling is that enough people contact them (and are verifiable owners) they will step up.  Otherwise, I don't know -- I am an attorney, I guess.

If you are having problems with your gas tank expanding, go here and please sign up:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ducatiplastictanks/join

Or you can join via email subscription by mailing:  
ducatiplastictanks-subscribe@yahoogroups.com



Send this link to other folks you know who might be having this problem and reference the prior thread:  http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=20672.0

I made the list private and NON posting, so you'll only get emails from ME directly.  When you sign up, you'll get an autoreply asking you to email the moderator with your contact information, which is necessary for contacting DNA (or anything else).

For those of you who do not know, I am an attorney and whatever you feel about lawyers, I'm a good guy and have ridden for about 25 years now, Ducatis about 24 of that.  I'm not interested in suing anyone, it's not my style, I am more of a "let's sit and have a beer and work this out" kind of attorney.

There is no charge for this at all to you.  If there is some kind of settlement, it will only be with the primary requirement that our tanks are replaced with a non-expanding variety (or at least replaced with a guarantee that it will be replaced again if it expands).  You'll have to be on the list to be part of any settlement.

Your information will be kept confidential.

Good luck to us all.


« Last Edit: October 20, 2010, 07:24:21 PM by ducatiz » Logged

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Uncle Mofo
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« Reply #1 on: June 09, 2009, 12:13:02 PM »

Just signed up. Thanks Izzy.
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JBubble
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« Reply #2 on: June 09, 2009, 12:17:00 PM »

Thank you for setting this up.
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Statler
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« Reply #3 on: June 09, 2009, 12:21:06 PM »

'tizz, I'll sticky this when I'm at a computer and not my phone.   Let's talk a bit too about details...(vin numbers would be good...as would folks whose tanks were already replaced....DMF logo and 'official' info included or no etc etc.

this is realy one of the big benefits of a forum and community...let's use that to benefit the members.

Thanks, man.

Chris
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ducatiz
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« Reply #4 on: June 09, 2009, 12:23:22 PM »

'tizz, I'll sticky this when I'm at a computer and not my phone.   Let's talk a bit too about details...(vin numbers would be good...as would folks whose tanks were already replaced....DMF logo and 'official' info included or no etc etc.

this is realy one of the big benefits of a forum and community...let's use that to benefit the members.

Thanks, man.

Chris

i put all that info in the list signup (including VIN and Ducati owner's group info if they have it).  give me a call later.
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"Yelling out of cars, turning your speakers out the window to blast your music onto the street, setting off M-80 firecrackers, firing automatic weapons into the air—these are all well and good. But none of them create a merry atmosphere of insouciance and bonhomie quite like a revving motorcycle.
angler
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« Reply #5 on: June 09, 2009, 12:31:39 PM »

Way to step up!  Thanks.

Since I'm in the area, I'll have to buy you a beer one of these days.......
« Last Edit: June 09, 2009, 01:03:04 PM by angler » Logged

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« Reply #6 on: June 09, 2009, 12:34:17 PM »

I stickied it.

good luck.

mitt
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RetroSBK
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« Reply #7 on: June 09, 2009, 05:56:05 PM »

Easy fix for the issue...

Under your gascap is a little green fitting, it seals to the bottom of the gas cap.  Simply grab a pair of pliars, and rip that sucker off there... and throw it away...

No more venting issue, and the ONLY downside is that IF the bike falls over, the cap will allow some fuel to spill onto the EPA protected ground.

Its the EPA's fault the tanks are expanding.. seriously..

BTW, by removing the vent seal, you allow the tank to vent quicker, and that unloads the fuel pump and actually gives a slight boost in HP, by increasing fuel pressure.

Will
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herm
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« Reply #8 on: June 09, 2009, 05:57:08 PM »

Tizzz,

do we need to sign up for a yahoo account, or is there a way around that? i am willing to do so if needed, but would rather not.

thanks for taking the lead on this!

herm
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ducatiz
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« Reply #9 on: June 09, 2009, 08:39:40 PM »

Tizzz,

do we need to sign up for a yahoo account, or is there a way around that? i am willing to do so if needed, but would rather not.

thanks for taking the lead on this!

herm

I'll add this to the top post:

Subscribe:    ducatiplastictanks-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Unsubscribe:    ducatiplastictanks-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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"Yelling out of cars, turning your speakers out the window to blast your music onto the street, setting off M-80 firecrackers, firing automatic weapons into the air—these are all well and good. But none of them create a merry atmosphere of insouciance and bonhomie quite like a revving motorcycle.
Benjamin5150
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« Reply #10 on: June 11, 2009, 06:19:45 AM »

Thanks for taking this on.  I have signed up.
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tlloyd66
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« Reply #11 on: June 11, 2009, 07:45:47 AM »

I have signed up, thank you for not only doing this, but for also making it available to us without Yahoo accounts!
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« Reply #12 on: June 11, 2009, 12:10:03 PM »

joined
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J.P.
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« Reply #13 on: June 11, 2009, 02:38:13 PM »

I'm there- Thank You Very Much.
You da man.
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« Reply #14 on: June 12, 2009, 01:27:12 PM »

Joined into this.  Thanks for setting it up!
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