All About Motor Oil according to George
zarn02:
Georgecls:
Regarding higher viscosity oils and shock loading. Yes, this is correct and there *is* an engine application where a higher viscosity engine oil is applicable. In a gasoline engine when ignition occurs, it is a burn process. In a diesel engine, the combustion process is just that; a very violent "explosion" vs. the burn process of a gasoline powered engine. Thus diesel engines require a higher viscosity engine oil which will provide "cushioning" for the connecting rod and main bearings. This is why diesel engines use a XXW-40 viscosity engine oil. The use of multi-viscosity engine oils which allowed the application of higher viscosities in engine operating temperatures was one of the single most important advancements in enabling the extension of diesel engine life.
George Morrison, STLE CLS
Georgecls:
Regarding the temperature range of Neo magnets for use on our oil filters. Some of the higher quality Neo has a significantly higher temperature operating range, so keep an eye open for those magnets. As with engine oils, there are Neo's and then there are Neo's.
The magnetic field will reduce with elevated temps but the field is always there to some degree. Additionally, the metal surface of the oil filter can where the Neo is attached to will become magnetized by the Neo creating an excellent force field area. Once particles begin to collect in the area, they too become magnetized, enlarging the field area. With elevated temps the "reach" of the magnet decreases but does not turn off like a light switch. And as the oil is cooled, the magnet force field returns back to original levels. I have examined hundreds of oil filters that had Neo on their surfaces and in every case there is ferrous residue ranging from a small amount of paste to paste/chunks/clunks. i.e. there is always "something" there and that "something" is iron and steel. Any abrasives, especially ferrous, we can capture from the system is a win/win for our engine and transmission.
George Morrison, STLE CLS
620mblack:
Wow, it took me an hour or so to read up to this point, Its a great thread [thumbsup]
My questions...
I have several different oils laying around in my garage, and was wondering a couple things....what does 4t mean? Its on a bottle of motorex 15w/50 semi synthetic, and on a bottle of Castrol Actevo
sae 10w-40
the motorex says its formulated for oil bath clutches and has --- jaso ma, api sg, acea a3-98 on it
The castrol says synthetic-based, and has--- api sg and jaso ma on it
I assume that both are semi synthetic.... but does the 4t mean the "grade"
I change oil and filters every 2000 miles, due to the fact I regulary see temps of 250-290 f.
Also on condasation in the oil, Ive been running my bike every 1-2 weeks for at least 20 mins @ 210+f
and I still see white in the sight glass, is that a major problem?
Georgecls:
Regarding the cloudiness you see after your rides. It is somewhat surprising in that generally 10 to 15 minutes of 180+ F riding should well release any entrained moisture. As previously discussed, the major concern is corrosion. Engine oils are formulated to be able to contain levels of moisture without creating any lubrication issues. Short change faux oil changes (no filter, just the oil) is an easy, 3 quart excellent rust preventive.
Regarding the 4T designation. I do not have an answer..... For years I surmised it was the European manufacturer simple designation for 2 (2T) cycle or 4 (4T) cycle motorcycle engine/transmission designation. I will do some research and get back on this.
George Morrison, STLE CLS
620mblack:
Now where does the moisture go? I assumed it stayed in the case as water vapor intill the motor cools down and the condensed.... or is it vented out the oil breather? I guess ill have to change the oil this weekend :P
Georgecls:
If we get the oil to the 180F+ level, the entrained moisture is released and vents through the crankcase breather. If we do not reach the 180F+ level for enough duration, then the moisture is not released and is contained in loose emulsion. When coolinig, the water already in the oil pulls even more into the oil as water is incredibly reactive. If not released from the engine oil, simply change the oil. Fresh oil will be much better able to deal with any condensation that does take place with its full charge of additives and inherint higher stability. New oil does wonders, especially for corrosion prevention.
George Morrison, STLE CLS
imola23:
Quote from: metalman
*
Then also my mid 70's V-twin Duc has all roller bearings would you go 10-40 with that as well?
I am curious about this too.* The owners manual calls for straight grade 50 weight.* This is a mid-70's Duc with a roller bearing crank.* Others say that a modern multi-grade would be better than even a modern straight 50w.
Georgecls:
A multi-grade 50 weight oil, especially a group IV or Group V synthetic, will certainly provide a much higher level of lubrication, especially on startup. As per our previous discussions, a 15W-50 full synthetic such as Mobil 1 V-Twin is essentially a 50W oil that just happens to flow to 40F below zero... Thus this type of oil is capable of immediate flow, pumpability, and optimal lubrication immediately, irrespective of ambient temperatures. Additionally the Group IV or Group V synthetic will provide higher viscosity, superior lubrication at elevated operating temperatures.
George Morrison, STLE CLS
imola23:
Thanks George. This begs another question: Under what circumstances would a straight 50 weight oil be recommended?
Georgecls:
Courtesy modern day chemistry, there are no engine applications in which a true straight grade 50W mineral based oil would be recommended. A 50W full synthetic Group IV/V oil is a total operational win/win and multi-viscosity mineral based XXW-50 weights would provide far superior performance characteristics vs a mineral based straight grade 50W. There are simply no applications I am familiar with that a straight 50W mineral based oil would be recommended.
George Morrison, STLE CLS
zarn02:
dan900sie:
A little more info to add to the mix.
http://www.sportrider.com/tech/146_0308_oil/
http://www.sportrider.com/tech/146_0310_oil/
22080:
Simple question though probably simple to answer.
I was speaking to an oil rep from a competing company, and, yes, they sell motorcycle oil. This gentleman told me Mobile 1 15w-50 extended performanc actually has notably more phosphorous than the old 15W-50 and does not contain any friction modifyers that wiuld make your wet clutch likely to slip. Could you please confirm this?
Georgecls:
Yes, it is correct that Mobil 1 15W-50 Extended Performance does not contain lubricity enhancements for fuel mileage maximization.* However, as with our previous discussions, the 15W-50 viscosity is not optimal for most Ducati engines, creating unwanted heat and horsepower loss.*
Compared to other available 15W-50 oils, the Mobil 1 EP 15W-50 is an exceptional oil for those engines requiring a 50W oil.* *Both the Mobil 1 MX4T 10W-40 and Mobil 1 V-Twin 20W-50 contain even higher levels of anti-wear and detergency addization than the Extended Performance, along with motorcycle specific base stock (higher performance).
George Morrison, STLE CLS
craigg:
George,
I've seen that you prefer MX4T's viscosity versus the V-Twin forumula for the L-Twin. What's your opinion with the fact that the oil shears in a short period of time [i.e. for an OI of 875miles in my ZZR250 M1 15W-50 sheared from a low 50wt to a mid 40wt, from 18cSt to 14.7cSt @ 100ºC] ?
With all of the UOAs on BITOG It seems to me that the 40wt would shear down to a 30wt in no time.
Georgecls:
As we have been discussing at length, the 10W-40, Mobil 1 MX4T is the recommended viscosity for Ducati by Ducati.* A 50W will rob horsepower, create heat.* You indicate that your 15W-50 Mobil 1 'sheared' to a 40W in relatively low mileage.* I have reviewed Mobil 1 15W50 engine oil analysis results after a 500 mile NASCAR race (they don't use 15W-50 anymore, changed to 0W-30 two years ago) indicating a right on the money 50W viscosity, no shear whatsoever.* Ducati engines can be fuel diluters, big time.* *I would strongly suggest that your 40W viscosity was due to fuel dilution vs. shear...* Some labs do not take the time to run fuel dilutions, just the viscosities.*
I have reviewed many Ducati oil analysis with viscosities lower than what went in the engine and in group IV and Group V full synthetic oils, it was fuel dilution every time..* I have reviewed many, many Mobil 1 MX4T 10W-40 Ducati engine oil analysis and in every case, right on viscosity; except those cases where significant fuel dilution was present.
So, yes, I strongly recommend Mobil 1 MX4T or other Group IV or Group V synthetic engine oil.* Shear is not an issue from my experience.* *Quite the contrary... Mobil 1 MX4T and Mobil 1 V-Twin are very shear stable....*
George Morrison, STLE CLS
terry:
George, we previously discussed the Shell Ultra 4 that I thought was fully synthetic and you suggested that it was really a group III oil which can be legally described as fully synthetic but really isn't.
I've said I'm considering taking your advice to change to MX4T but what convinces you that this is definitely a group IV oil when you have said there is no definitive list?
You have just recommended using a group IV or V but if you can't tell us what group each oil belongs to then how can we choose one?
dan900sie:
Here is a link http://motorcycleinfo.calsci.com/Oils1.html with more, easier to understand (for me at least) info, and some specific brands mentioned.
(ed: snipped from full post.)
Georgecls:
Dan, thank you so much for posting that excellent link.* Superbly written and loaded with good information.* And in Dan's reference link, Terry, the few full, real Group IV and Group V oils were delineated. There are not many.....* One of the immediate clues of the base stock used is pour point.* As we comparatively examined the pour points of Mobil 1 MX4T 10W-40 vs. Shell Ultra 10W-40, it was most evident that the Shell was not a group IV or Group V.* And then our good friend from Greece noted in a most scientific way that when he swayed his Ducati from side to side, the oil on the window moved reeeaall slow...* Which is what initiated our whole Shell discussion on the subject "there are synthetics and then there are *real* synthetics".
Lubrication is not a simple subject, especially when the water (oil) has been clouded with the quasi synthetic group III now legally labeled "synthetic".
I really do not want to get to the point of "recommending" a product.* I will share information of products I know, such as Mobil 1 MX4T in that I have knowledge of its formulation, base stocks, and formulator along with extensive oil analysis database.* My purpose is to share in depth technical information so you can be a more informed buyer, user,* enabling you to better decide which lubricants will provide optimal performance for your bike's engine and gearbox in your environment and application.
George Morrison, STLE CLS
terry:
George, the reason I asked why you are convinced that MX4T is a 'real' synthetic as opposed to the Shell that I've been using is that locally I haven't found MX4T for sale so I wanted to know the technical information to look for which would identify which group an oil belongs to.
I hope it didn't look like I was suggesting MX4T wasn't a group IV. The fact that you use MX4T in your bike is a good enough recommendation for me anyway.
Thanks once again George.
desmo_drum:
So I looked at the amsoil website. It has a pour point of -50F, a vicosity index of 152, flash point of 453. This looks like a group V or IV oil? Ths specs are listed at the bottom of this page.
http://www.amsoil.com/StoreFront/mcf.aspx
BTW, this has been a fantastically educational thread! [thumbsup]
zarn02:
terry:
I'm particularly grateful for George for explaining that my Shell Ultra is not 'real' synthetic and I feel I've been conned. It looks like Ducati may recommend Shell because they sponsor the race team!
Georgecls:
Terry, you are right on target; when a lubricant manufacturer walks into a race team with a rather large check, it many times (let's say always) follows that the motorcycle or automobile manufacturer will follow suit and recommend the company's lubricants. The problem in this case is this situation with Group III oils and an appearance of mis-information with respect to use of the word "synthetic" and corresponding words such as "Ultra"; as this is not only a "synthetic oil" it is an "Ultra synthetic"
super duper, worth the high cost, you're gonna love it because we know it is best. When in fact you (and everyone on this site) very likely now know more about Shell Ultra and Group II+, Group III oils than the good folks at Ducati. I would venture to say there will be some raised eyebrows at Ducati at some point when they find out the oil is not what they thought it was.
George Morrison, STLE CLS
sblea:
George,
First let me say that this is going to gone down as one of the greatest threads ever on internet!
I would like your expert opinion on the synthetic Maxima oils... During my breaking in process of my duc 998, I used Maximu Premium (Petroleum Blend) 10w40...*
http://www.maximausa.com/products/4stroke/maxum4premium.asp
After 3000 miles, I did not find a 10w40 Maxima4 Synthetic Extra (recommended by the manual), so I purchased the next best thing, the 15w50 Maxima4 Synthetic Extra.* I have already purchased another 3.78L for my upcoming 6K oil change, so my question is based on the specs below, is the synthetic extra a true synthetic?** * If so, how does the 10w40 Maxima4 Synthetic Extra* stack up againts the Mobil 1?* I guess I should switch to 10w40 after my 9K oil change? Do I still use the Synthetic Extra ?
http://www.maximausa.com/products/4stroke/maxum4synthextra.asp
Thanks in advance.
Georgecls:
First, may I thank you for the kind words.... The excellence of this thread is the result of everyone who has inputed and participated; extraordinary people reside on this site.
The oil indicates that it is ester based and thus a very high level performing engine oil. The only drawback of an ester based engine oil is its natural affinity for moisture, which can lead to corrosion. If you live in a cold climate where you will not be riding you bike foran extended period, you should consider changing the oil prior to spring. Ester based oils love water.
The oil has the potential to be equal to or superior to Mobil 1 Mx4T in every respect except the corrosion issue.
George Morrison, STLE CLS
<Several posts referencing neo magnet purchases cut>
Georgecls:
You are most welcome, thank you.* You know the site is getting esoteric when the discussion raises to the level of enhancing oil filter performance!* Such a simple, relatively inexpensive device yet Neo's filtration capabilities are superb.* Especially in our high ferrous wear metal producing gearboxes.* When I previously mentioned filtering to the angstrom level, this also provides significant benefits to the engine oil.* Ultra fine metal particles are oxidation catalysts and by removing/minimizing these ultra fine particles we can significantly increase engine oils properties.* Ferrous metals, whether it be a gear face or free floating are all fighting for the same anti-wear additives; minimize the free floating ferrous particles and the additive stays in suspension to deposit on gear surfaces, where it is needed instead of depleting.* Oil oxidation rates can be significantly reduced.* Oxidation by-products are many, including acids.* Acids in engine oil accelerate wear rates, especially for yellow metals.* Minimize oxidation, minimize acid by-products, oil performance levels are then maintained at a much higher level for a longer period.* All the result of that little magnet on the oil filter...
George Morrison, STLE CLS
dakinebusa:
Here is a new oil test to throw some dataq on the fire...
http://www.amsoil.com/lit/g2156.pdf
Georgecls:
As further discussion for the relevance of the use of Neodymium magnets as an iron/steel filter mechanism, my recent Ducati 1000DS engine oil analysis reflected the following.
Iron, 18 ppm, chrome 1, lead 1, copper 4, tin 0, aluminum 4, nickel 1, sililcon (dirt) 6. As can be seen, the highest single wear metal component was iron/steel, related to our sharing sumps with the transmission. The elevated iron significantly accerates all of the other components wear rates, especially yellow metal. Anything we can do to reduce the level of iron/steel in the engine oil will have a direct relationship on the engine, gearbox and especially bearing wear rates and overall longevity. And Neo will address this component very, very well. Along with increasing the performance of the engine/gear oil.
George Morrison, STLE CLS
hiero:
Hey George, again thanks for keeping up with us here, one of my previous questions got lost in the mix way back a couple of pages, but I was just wondering if there was a 'shelf life' with new oil? specifically full synthetics (PAOs, as that's what I use), since I tend to buy in bulk and hold on to the stock until I need it... any issues with doing this? ???
Georgecls:
I apologize, I obviously missed your shelf life question.. 3 years is a conservative safe life for sealed Group IV or Group V stored in reasonably stable temperatures (to minimize condensation). Group III synthetics (?) are variable in their makeup, base stocks, but should be safe for comparable periods.
George Morrison, STLE CLS
Ash:
Quote from: desmo_drum
So I looked at the amsoil website. It has a pour point of -50F, a vicosity index of 152, flash point of 453. This looks like a group V or IV oil? Ths specs are listed at the bottom of this page.
http://www.amsoil.com/StoreFront/mcf.aspx
BTW, this has been a fantastically educational thread!* [thumbsup]
First of all, thanks George for an amazing thread and everyone for the participation.
SEcond, I too would love to know if the amsoil stuff is G IV or V. I use the 20w-50 right now and from this thread, have decided to switch to 10w-40. I'm pretty happy (read: no problems) with amsoil, but I'm curious about the MX4T as well. Though, amsoil's information page linked above suggests the MX4T has inferior film strength at elevated temp. Comments?
thanks!
zarn02:
Georgecls:
Quote from: Ash
First of all, thanks George for an amazing thread and everyone for the participation.
SEcond, I too would love to know if the amsoil stuff is G IV or V.* I use the 20w-50 right now and from this thread, have decided to switch to 10w-40.* I'm pretty happy (read: no problems) with amsoil, but I'm curious about the MX4T as well.* Though, amsoil's information page linked above suggests the MX4T has inferior film strength at elevated temp.* Comments?
thanks!
Yes, in answer to your question, the specifications indicate that the Amsoil is a group IV/V base stock oil. Regarding the Amsoil comparisons, it is difficult for me to comment on as I very much want to keep my position in the forum as neutral as possible. All of the top rated motorcycle specific oils in their comparisons are superb engine/transmission lubricants. One can split hairs on a particular laboratory test result but all of these oils are going to provide a level of performance and protection advantage that is huge compared with Group III and non-motorcycle specific engine oils.
A company may publish a particular segment of laboratory tests that skew results towards one's products. An example may be stating Zinc additive treat levels, with an obvioius high treat level, indicating that as an advantage. However, another company may use other anti-wear additives which provide additional anti wear and oxidation benefits that zinc alone cannot provide. The comparison shows brand X to be deficient to brand A in Zinc content; however, the overall anti-wear additization package of Brand X is at a much higher level than brand A, thus providing significant performance benefits. If one graphs Zinc content alone, brand A is indeed the winner but the result is meaningless as it relates to overall engine oil extreme pressure performance.
So, back to point one, all of those Group IV and V motorcycle specific oils are superb products... One cannot go wrong with any of the choices.
George Morrison, STLE CLS
Ash:
to your point about zinc levels, amsoil's white paper completely concurred with your statement. Not sure if you read it all the way through but it seems like a pretty impartial and scientifically appropriate document.
thanks!
Georgecls:
Yes, Amsoil's white paper did concur in the fine print that Zinc alone is not an indicator of performance; however, the half page graphs showed nothing but Zinc levels so a person reading the notation "Zinc quantiy content alone does not indicate its performance" would ask "why publish the graph in the first place!?" Which is exactly my point..
The graph shows Brand A with higher levels of Zinc than all other oils.. Which would lead a person who had *not* read the complete text to come away with a "obviously Brand A is better" take... For me, the "white paper" becomes a little gray with this methodology..... Why publish a graph that has little or no meaning?? There are EP additives which can far surpass the performance of Zinc alone; some of the other oils indicated on the chart contain these additives. These "other additives" can cost much more than Zinc and will provide synergistic results when combined with a certain level of zinc.
Thus my issues with these "white papers" and my previous comments about "thin slicing" tests, publishing data and graphs which are mis-leading, especially to a person who may not read the complete study, the fine print, or just likes graphs...
George Morrison, STLE CLS
Ash:
I do see your point.
Marketing within tech papers which you can't call anyone out on because it's so subtle...
Then again, Amsoil's oil didn't have the highest zinc levels, so it's not even very good bad marketing [laugh]
Georgecls:
It is reeeallly difficult to correlate laboratory test performance to real world. Yes, lab testing does perform a very important function in developing products but I cannot tell you the number of times, the layers/inches of scar tissue I have from developing the world greatest lubricant only to have it fail miserably in field applications. I have received plaques honoring some of my stupendous failures, yet each performed superbly in the lab! I speak from experience....
George Morrison, STLE CLS
<Several newbie posts related to oil change intervals cut.>
Georgecls:
Ducpainter is right on target. Engine oil lubricant should be changed at a mileage or annually. As he indicated, acids, moisture, wear metals and combusiton by-products accumulate in the oil and simply need to be drained, at least annually. Preferably at the end of the riding season so that a fresh charge of oil is in the crankcase/transmission. The acids and other harmful deposits are then removed for winter storage. Acids in the used oil can quietly work away all winter if left in the engine.
George Morrison, STLE CLS
vij:
I am sure this is way of topics but I have to ask.
On top of my 916 monster I have a old ducati bevel.
I dont know if you guys know about this engines but the main problem is the bigend bearing. It is a roller bearing and it is the main problem on this engines. They are famous for there Bigend problems.
The thing is that every expert recommens straight 50 mineral oil and that is because of the big end problems. It is also basicly splash lubricated.
It obviosly works as an engine runned on straight 50 lasts longer.
What does a lube expert think about this?
I am just making a full rebuild due to bigend failure.
I forgot to tell. The filtering sysytem on this engines sucks also.
What oil would some one that knows oil recommend. I would love to fill with syntetic. Any reason that I should/should not do that?
Happy for advices.
Jocke........
Georgecls:
Regarding a "straight" 50W for use in older Ducati engines with bottom end issues. As we have discussed on this site, a full Group IV/V synthetic base stock engine oil IS a straight grade 50W oil. A 50W synthetic base stock will just happen to meet the 15W or 20W specifications but is essentially a full, for real, 50W oil very much the same as a mineral based 50W, except that our fully synthetic base stock will pour to 50 below zero, where the mineral based 50W is approaching a solid at 0 degrees F. Additionally, at 230F, our 50W synthetic is a rock solid 50W where the mineral based 50W is beginning to thin, as all mineral based oils do when exposed to elevated operating temperature. Thus our synthetic XXW-50 full synthetic oil is going to provide a "thicker" oil at engine operating temperatures than the supposed thick 50W mineral based oil.
From a lube engineer's perspective, using a high quality group IV/V full synthetic XXW-50 will provide nothing but advantages in operation, life, for any engine designed for a 50W, irrespective of bearings, especially for a "weak" situation. There are simply no lubrication advantages in a mineral based oil vs. a full group IV/V synthetic. None........
As long as we provide the viscosity required by the manufacture in its initial design phase, a full synthetic is going to provide superior lujbrication in every respect. The film strength of a full synthetic alone, vs. a mineral based oil is a win/win. Then add cold weather flow, high temperature stability, etc.. You are correct in your assumptions...
George Morrison, STLE CLS
steveb999:
I'm considering using a full synthetic 5-40 oil in an old bevel drive Ducati instead of the straight SAE40 (always a quality modern oil, never the "Classic" non detergent stuff though) it's always been running on.
After reading through the 8 pages of the Motor Oil thread, I gather that synthetic oil is so stable in viscosity, it needs hardly any VI additive to meet the spec for the 5-40 grade, which is a Good Thing in view of the large number of bevel gears & roller bearings in the engine. In addition this should give me much better lubrication on start-up and better protection when standing still.
However, I'm wondering whether the high detergent content found in most of these oils will cause any problems? Someone was talking about the old Triumph triples claiming that it's a Bad Idea to switch to synthetic without stripping & cleaning the whole engine, since the dislodged sludge would choke the paper oil filter very quickly.
Ducati's idea of oil filtration on these engines is a sludge trap in the crank and a screen mesh filter on the oil pump intake. This, together with the expense of rebuilding the unit, is the reason why I have always been changing oil at around 1000 - 1500km.
If I go to a synthetic, it will probably be one of the cheaper types - 4l of a high profile name such as Shell or Castrol (Mobile is not available here in Denmark) currently costs the equivalent of $85 or so.....
What's your view on the question? I know that you cannot give a definite recommendation for this bike, but I would be very interested to hear your views on the detergent question.
Here's a spec sheet of the most promising oil from a Dutch company called Kroon Oils:
Emperol 5W-40 is a modern universal synthetic fuel economy motor oil formulation, produced with high quality synthetic base oils and a well balanced choice of advanced additives to obtain the following properties:
* Lower fuel consumption (up to 3%)
* High and very stable Viscosity Index
* Fast cold start
* Safe lubrication film even at very high temperatures
* Very good detergency and dispersion
* Very strong protection against wear, corrosion and foaming
Typicals
Density 15 °C, kg/l 0,852
Viscosity -30 °C, mPa.s 6110
Viscosity 40 °C, mm²/s 87,40
Viscosity 100 °C, mm²/s 14,40
Viscosity Index 172
Flash Point COC, °C 223
Total Base Number, mgKOH/g 10,7
Sulphate Ash, % 1,13
Productspecification
API SL/CF
ACEA A3, B3, B4
VW 502.00/505.00
MB 229.3, Porsche, BMW-98
Opel GM-LL-B-25 (pending)
Do you have any comments on this spec list?
Thanks very much,
Steve in Denmark, where it's still too cold to ride either the Trident or the Ducati.
Georgecls:
Steve in Denmark.
As a discussion poinit, do you have any full synthetic diesel rated engine oils available? They generally come in the 5W or 15W-40 viscosity rating and perform very well in older engines and do not contain energy saving additization. As a group they are high in detergent so an increase of oil drains would be anticipated. But the bottom line would be a positive one for you and your engine if you have any such readily available.
Many older Ducati are running Mobil Delvac 1 5W-40 and other full synthetic diesel engine oils with great success.
George Morrison, STLE CLS
zarn02:
IowaS4r:
I have not read this whole post, so please excuse me if I bring up a dead issue (9 pages of postings) to summarize, George you say a diesel motor designed synthetic oil is good to use in my water cooled, dry cluth 996 engine? I've read that you want to keep the multi vis close to avoid breaking the VI chains, which in that case a 10w - 30 would be good? I always thought a high vis like a 20-50 was the way to go, but the viscosity does not have to do with lubrication, does it?
If we do have a dry clutch, would it be better to use the low friction oil then? I used Mobil 1 in my 800 SS and the clutch did slip, I would not use it again in a wet clutch environment.
Georgecls:
With a full synthetic, we are not concened about the W rating as much as the operational viscosity. Most of our Ducati are optimized for a 40W operational viscosity. So, with a full synthetic there is no issue on cold weather rating (the XXW rating) as most full, real Group IV or V 40W synthetics flow to 60F below zero. And yes, Mobil 1 automotive contains friction enhancement and should not be used in a wet clutch application. Mobil 1 motorcycle specific synthetic oils do NOT contain friction enhancement and are optimized for motorcycle use.
So, no, a 10W-30 was never mentioned in our previous pages of discussion and should not be used in our Ducati engines/transmissions.
George Morrison, STLE CLS
JJGeo:
Wow...great thread and thanks for the info George!* [thumbsup]* Next oil I buy will be a full synthetic (Group IV/V) 40W for sure!
Anyway...the link below is to an article published in MCN comparing if the motorcycle specific oils are better than car oils and therefore worth the money.* They mainly focus on the resistance to shear.* It agrees that synthetic is best.* But the test results seem to show that Mobil 1 and Castrol Syntec car oils performed the best.* Have you seen this study George and what's your opinion?* Is it too simplified?
http://www.ducatimeccanica.com/oil.html
Georgecls:
Yes, I have read the MCN oil test and they did a yeoman job. But, yes, laboratory testing is one aspect but it is just impossible to duplicate real world. Lab tests are used to develop a baseline oil then it is off to the real engine/transmission for the rest of the formulation process. Irrespective, MCN's work was superbly done and written. Experientially I can share that Mobil 1 MX4T uses a significantly higher quality base stock than the automotive formulation yet there are no lab tests that will reflect the real world advantage of the difference, as one example... There are more..
George Morrison, STLE CLS
ducvet:
George
thanks for the great thread on oil . it has been the best by far [thumbsup]
one question for you is about oil shelf life. does oil have a shelf life? i have seen oils that leave sediment in the bottle after emptying (from new un-opened).
also my ducati reccomended agip stint 2000 or agip 4t sint racing, the 4t is only in a 20/50.
not trying to beat a dead horse here. but what was the reasoning that 50weight synthetic was not as good as a 40weight?
thanks again
Georgecls:
Oil does have a shelf life but if kept in normal temperatures, out of sunlight, 2 to 3 years is generally accepted. The settle out that you see IS a common current problem with Group II mineral based oils. Group II is quite stable as a base stock and does not hold additives in suspension as well as good 'ol Group 1 base stock oils. No big deal, just shake the bottle well and pour... No operational issues.
The 50W is no BIG issue, it just robs some horsepower, creates extra heat, etc. vs. a 40W. Operationally works just fine except for the aforementioned. It does not to anything "better" than a comparable group IV/V synthetic based engine oil and does some things not quite as well..
Ideally we would like "optimum" viscosity but if not available, do next best. Not "perfect" but no problems, no issues......
George Morrison, STLE CLS
alex:
Quote from: Georgecls
yes, Mobil 1 automotive contains friction enhancement and should not be used in a wet clutch application.* Mobil 1 motorcycle specific synthetic oils do NOT contain friction enhancement and are optimized for motorcycle use.*
Does that statement mean that Mobil 1 auto would be better than the moto version if it's for a dry clutch application?
Georgecls:
Re: Mobil 1 auto vs. Motorcycle MX4T for dry clutch Ducati, is auto better? In a word, No.. The original chief chemist for Mobil had 17 motorcycles, 5 of them Ducati and was given carte blanche on formulation. Thus Mobil 1 MX4T not only has an optimized additive package for motorcycle engines but also a much higher quality base stock than regular automotive Mobil 1. It is like when one builds a house, the foundation is the most important component; same with base stocks. Which comes to play in our requirement as gear oil lubricant with our common sump. Every component of Mobil 1 MX4T is totally optimized for high performance air and liquid cooled motorcycle application. (along with other Group IV/V motorcycle specific engine oils)
George Morrison, STLE CLS
moddedtunnel:
Quote from: Georgecls
First, may I thank you for the kind words....* The excellence of this thread is the result of everyone who has inputed and participated; extraordinary people reside on this site.
The oil indicates that it is ester based and thus a very high level performing engine oil.* The only drawback of an ester based engine oil is its natural affinity for moisture, which can lead to corrosion.* If you live in a cold climate where you will not be riding you bike foran extended period, you should consider changing the oil prior to spring.* Ester based oils love water.* *
The oil has the potential to be equal to or superior to Mobil 1 Mx4T in every respect except the corrosion issue.*
George Morrison, STLE CLS
The Maxima Maxum 4 Extra is a PAO /Ester based formula of around 70/30 . Just enough ester to offset the seal shrinkage that would happen with PAO only and to aid with the miscability of the additive pack which is much like the Mobil bike oil .* The Maxima Ultra is made the other way . Around 60% Ester/40% PAO
I do not* know of any current , primary ester based engine oils that use a refrigerant type ester . It's the polyol esters used in closed refrigerant systems that have hygroscopic tendancies and not TMP , PE types used in modern engine oils .
To add and without quoting other posts , did anyone notice in Amsoils tests both the Maxima Maxum 4 and Maxum Ultra did not get tested by Amsoil ? Funny really .
Here's what the Maxima Maxum 4 synthetic additive pack looks like . Very high levels of anti-wear and is the cream of the crop of basic primary PAO based formulas, in my opinion . Antimony is such a great additive that reduces piston ring wear and gear box wear . It's only available in 3-4 current formulas/brands that I know of .
Antinomy 1020
Magnesium 640
Calcium 700
Sodium* 248
Phosphorus 3390
Zinc 2530
Some of these newer 10w-40 synthetics are made on the very low side of the 40wt scale at operating temp . Mobil 10w-40 is around 13.6 centistrokes . As good of an oil as it is I believe it would suffer viscosity shear and be a 30wt in short time when factoring in both shear and some fuel dillution .
Myself , I use a 15w-50 made on the light side @ 15.5 centistrokes .
9.3-12.49 centistrokes denote the 30wt scale
12.50 - 16 something is the 40 wts
Just remember folks that rule of thumb is to use a light viscosity oil for light load hi-rpm road racing racing without alot of turns and a bit heavier for extreme engine load leaving / grunting out of the many apex's time after time at lower rpm .
Shell uses 40wts and thinner for the long track F1 cars , the equivilant of a 15w-50 for the shorter courses .
Now where were we , I've forgot* :)
moddedtunnel:
Oh yes , now I recall* :)
For quite sometime there has been some rumors about friction modified oils and wet clutches floating around the internet .
All oils are friction modified to an extent , some more than others . Mobil 4T is friction modded by used of zinc . It also uses boron which is well known as a secondary friction modifer but most importantly is that many of these JASO MA bike specific oils now use oil soluable moly " MoDTC " .
Rumors abound of how this type moly will make a wet clutch slip . I have never seen such in modern bike engines with sound clutch systems . If it were a problem , I highly doubt the new formula Mobil bike oil would be using it in the formula* , don't you ?
Motul E-Tech 100 has used around 70 parts per million of this MoDTC for a few years now . Thats a JASO MA oil . The new Mobil formula , latest Amsoil and at least one of the Silkolenes use it as verified through analysis .
I believe they are using it for the* anti-oxident capabilities more so than a friction modifier .
There are several other friction modifiers that cannot be seen through elemental analysis but thats another topic .
This is a Ducati forum , they use dry clutches so I want all the friction modifiers and extreme pressure additives I can get . The Mobil Extended Performance 15w-50 is not in paricular a poor choice for most bike engines , especially since it generally can be bought for half the price of some other oils . Is that the oil i use ? No but I get better pricing on my oils than some can get .
Speaking of , go to onoffroad.com and gander at the ultra sweet pricing of the Maxima oils . Not bad at all I'd say .
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