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Author Topic: All About Motor Oil according to George  (Read 81605 times)
zarn02
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« on: May 13, 2008, 10:11:05 PM »

Well, here it is folks. The weeded and formatted oil thread. I left out a fair amount of the interesting tangents, and tried to minimize occurances of backtracking, and re-answering of questions. Not sure how well it turned out, and the manner in which I combined multiple posts into single posts was a tradeoff, so it may be a bit long and daunting... but here it is. Smiley
« Last Edit: January 15, 2010, 07:01:23 AM by ducpainter » Logged

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zarn02
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« Reply #1 on: May 13, 2008, 10:11:21 PM »

Rickoz:
Just got a new S2R not long ago & will change the oil every 5000km
after each service done by the Ducati shop.

What do you use for motor oil: I will use Moble1 V-Twin.
Why do you use this oil: Allways been happy with Moble1 in my cars waytogo

Georgecls:
Noted you mention using Mobil 1 V-Twin. Highly recommend you consider Mobil 1 MX4T 10W-40. Mobil 1 V-Twin is fine for slower turning engines such as most V-Twins. In our higher RPM engines, the use of a 40W full synthetic is much a much more optimum viscosity oil.
George Morrison, STLE CLS

terry:
Choice of viscosity depends on ambient though George? Also, Mobil don't agree with your comment about their V-Twin oil. I recognise your qualifications of course.

Georgecls:
Yes, 50W is fine for John Deere Tractors, but not so fine for our engines... But that is from a lube engineer's perspective......... We want to optimize viscosity for the RPM's the engine will be seeing.. Remember, our engines are NOT V-twins as defined by Harley Davidson but much higher revving, higher performance in every respect, with very different lubrication needs.
George Morrison, STLE CLS

Georgecls:
And yes, you've discussed oil a coupla times but not with me...........:-)
George

ducpainter:
Quote from: Georgecls
Originally Posted by Georgecls
Yes, 50W is fine for John Deere Tractors, but not so fine for our engines... But that is from a lube engineer's perspective......... We want to optimize viscosity for the RPM's the engine will be seeing.. Remember, our engines are NOT V-twins...
George Morrison, STLE CLS
If our engines are not V-twins, they are certainly L-twins. In the perspective of a lube engineer what is high rpm?

philb:
Quote from: Georgecls
Remember, our engines are NOT V-twins...*
Yes they are. It's two-cylinders, in a 90º vee; that makes it a V-twin.

The whole oil controversy is overrated and overthought. Get any decent quality synthetic or semi-synthetic that is formulated for motorcycle use, in the weight your manual recommends. Change it regularly (about 3-4000 miles), and the filter every second oil change, and don't fret about it.

philb

terry:
Quote from: Georgecls
Yes, 50W is fine for John Deere Tractors, but not so fine for our engines...* But that is from a lube engineer's perspective.........*
George Morrison, STLE CLS
Nobody suggested using a monograde oil though George?

Georgecls:
Re: 50W.. No, we are never talking single grades anymore, just lazy typing on my part. Should have been more exacting in saying a 15W-50 ot 20W-50 but both oils ARE true 50 weight oils at engine operating temperatures. Slipped into engineering talk of operational viscosities...
My reference that our Ducati engines are not V-twins (L-Twin) was tongue in cheek, moreover with the intent of differentiation that our engines are NOT of the HD, Yamaha cruiser, etc. ilk.. Our engines are high speed engines optimized for XXW-40 visosities, vs the slower turning HD V-twin (and of course John Deere Tractors of old) need the XXW-50 viscosity..
As a lube engineering concept, the faster the component, the lower the viscosity required to achieve optimum fluid dynamics. The slower the component (HD), the thicker the viscosity needed to achieve optimum interelationship with bearing surfaces.
The viscosity issue is one of the ongoing battles I have to deal lwith as the mentality of "if two asperins are good, four must be better" applied to "if 10W40 is good then 15W-50 must be better" In most cases it is not... The thicker oil robs horsepower, creates unwanted heat (especially in an air cooled engine), and can/will cause accelerated bearing interface wear as the oil simply cannot keep up with the bearing face speeds.
George Morrison, STLE CLS

dakinebusa:
Them Harley Davidson thingies are roller bearing motors like old BMWs and have entirely different oiling needs from journal bearing high speed motors.
The usual mix of bull semen and bear snot that works just fine in my ole shubblehead would sieze a Ducati motor...
I use gold cap Mobil 1 10-40 car oil in all my bikes and v8s and it delivers all the benefits expected of synthetic oil.
The Motorhead (Bonneville record holder) runs Mobil 1 car oil in his 500+ hp turbo Hayabusas without clutch slip or other problems.
Bike specific oil is great marketing but frequent oil changes are better Grin
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« Reply #2 on: May 13, 2008, 10:11:38 PM »

terry:
Quote from: Georgecls
Should have been more exacting in saying a 15W-50 ot 20W-50 but both oils ARE true 50 weight oils at engine operating temperatures. Slipped into engineering talk of operational viscosities...
George Morrison, STLE CLS
George, you say that a 50 weight oil is 50 weight at engine operating temperatures, but I thought a 50 weight oil was 50 weight at 100°C ?

dakinebusa:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/visc.html

ducpainter:
Quote from: dakinebusa
So is that chart saying that a 20W-50 engine oil is 20weight at ambient or 50weight at 1000C, or both?

Georgecls:
In API engine oil viscosity designation, the "W" is the "winter" rating for the oil. This system was originally designed for mineral based oils, when "multi-viscosity" came into being. Mineral oils are very sensitive to temperature changes: when cooled they thicken, when heated they thin. The old single grade oils were lilke molasis at 0 degrees F. Magic of chemistry came along. Multi vis. How we make a 20W-50 mineral based oil is to start out with 20,000 gallons of 20W oil, then throw in viscosity improvers which are essentially plastic coil springs (plastomers) which expand with temperature, shink with cold. Thus when we heat this 20W oil up to operating temperature, the plastic coil springs expand, giving the 20W oil the apparent viscosity of a 50W oil. When the oil cools down, the coil springs shrink and we are back to our 20W oil we started with.. Which flows like a 20W oil at 0 degrees F. Because it IS a 20W oil..
Now to full synthetics. All the above does NOT apply. To make a 20W-50 API rated oil, we start out with a 50W base stock (essentially) and do nothing. When full synthetics are cooled, they do not thicken as mineral base oils do. Same when heated; they retain their viscosity and do not thin. Which is one of the major positives for synthetic based lubes: they provide the film thickness at higher temps yet allow easy start-up. No VI improvers needed with this oil, although in the real world VI improvers are used minimally to allow large scale production and insurance of exceeding API requirements.. But even in full synthetics, when the range gets to a 0W-50 or so, there is a slug of VI improvers in that mix.. The downside of VI improvers are that they shear, are subject to load shock, etc. NOT as good as a full synthetic molecule...
So, the old wives tail about synthetic oil being thinner is completely innacurate. Full synthetic engine oils are thicker both in base stocks and operationally..
Hope I have clarified. If not, keep the questions coming.
Thank you,
George Morrison, STLE CLS

22080:
So, George, when Ducati put sticker on my engine saying 20W - 50 they where wrong?

Georgecls:
No, for those with a 20W-50 designation by Ducati, by all means run Mfg recommendation.. Mine says 10W-40 and for those whose manual says 10W-40....... (however, methinks this 20W-50 recent recommendation changge is related to Shell's Ducati racing sponsorship and Shell's not making a 10W-40 full synthetic motorcycle oil... Woops, lets change that manual to read 20W-50 don't want to be recommending an oil our sponsor doesn't make!)
Like with Ford and Honda discovering the glitch in CAFE fuel mileage that enabled huge paper gains in corporate cafe by merely switching from a 5W-30 to a 5W-20 engine oil. Millions of dollars of engineering could not equal what the stroke of a pen achieved...

BCT_Dark:
So the book basically recommends virtually all grade of oil for use in their motors.
Are you saying one 'grade' is better than another for use in the Ducati aircooled twins?

Cause the popular ones these days seem to be 10w-40 for water cooled and 20w50 for the aircooled, which I assume to be attributed to the fact that water cooled motors are built with tighter tolerances due to their ability to 'regulate' heat better, and aircooled motors built 'looser' to accomidate the massive fluctuations in heat within the motor.

Huh?

ducpainter:So to put it very simply a 20W-50 full synthetic flows like a 20w mineral at ambient with little or no modification to the base stock?

terry:
Quote from: Georgecls
When full synthetics are cooled, they do not thicken as mineral base oils do.* Same when heated; they retain their viscosity and do not thin.*George Morrison, STLE CLS


That doesn't make sense to me George. You're saying the viscosity is the same at 180°C as it is at 20°C?

Georgecls:
Regarding "it doesn't seem to make sense". As a correlation of the viscosity stability of synthetic lubricants, look to water. Water does not change its viscosity until it reaches boiling point and of course freezing point where all manner of chemistry goes to heck as it not only solidifies, it expands! Irrespective, in its liquid state, water maintains its viscosity right on. Very similarly, a full synthetic base stock is very, very stable. Not to say that it does not slightly increase vis at very, very low temps, as it does, it is that the rate of viscosity change is almost straightline vs. mineral base oils which temperature graph looks like a safe dropped out a 4 story window with cold/heat.. Again, the temperature stability of synthetic base stocks is one of its many virtues in providing optimal viscosity and film thickness throughout the operational range of an engine. (and transmission, etc.)
George Morrison, STLE CLS
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« Reply #3 on: May 13, 2008, 10:11:57 PM »

Georgecls:
Re: 10W-40 for water cooled and 50W for air cooled. My air cooled 1000DS manual calls for a 10W40. An XXW-50W is potentially going to create *more* heat and the air cooled relies on the oil for roughly 40% of its heat dissapation.. i.e. the water cooled can much better deal with heat as it has air, coolant and oil to carry heat away... Thus from an objective lube perspective, the air cooled would be more optimally lubed and cooled with a full synthetic XXW-40. Another important point is that a full synthetic engine oil dissapates heat at roughly twice the rate of a mineral based equivalent. Enabling a signifcantly cooler running engine, transmission...
George Morrison, STLE CLS

terry:
George, I'm still a bit confused about the viscosity. If the viscosity doesn't* change with temperature then why is it a 10W-40 and not called a monograde?
Another question is what are you calling fully synthetic because there has been some dispute about which oils can be called that.

BCT_Dark:
Quote from: terry
George, I'm still a bit confused about the viscosity. If the viscosity doesn't* change with temperature then why is it a 10W-40 and not called a monograde?
Another question is what are you calling fully synthetic because there has been some dispute about which oils can be called that.

Terry, read this...
http://www.sportrider.com/tech/146_0308_oil/index.html

terry:
Quote from: BCT_Dark

Yes thanks, but to quote from that article:

Quote
In other words, when the oil is cold it will flow like a 20-weight, but when hot it will act like a 50-weight. In order to overcome the natural thinning that occurs as oil heats up, a component known as a viscosity modifier is added. This is a complex polymer that swells due to heat, the net result being that the oil thins less.

I understand that designation for oils that thin as they heat-up but George is saying that the synthetic oil doesn't change its viscosity with temperature but it's still designated e.g. 10W-40
The part about the oil groups is why I was asking George if he was just referring to Group V oils.

Georgecls:
I realize all this viscosity business is confusing but I will answer questions till the cows come home so you can have a good understanding of this very important point. Yes, you are correct in that we could call Mobil 1 MX4T a straight grade 40W, like the old mineral base straight grades. EXCEPT that we no longer can speak of mineral base chemistry.. Full synthetics, especially Group IV and V oils have an extremely stable natural viscosity characteristic. This actually is quantifiable in its measurement of Viscosity Index. (NOT viscosity, a different term here) A high quality mineral based oil will have a natural Viscosity Index (referred here on as VI) of say 96. 100 is the highest and the bestest best suite crude enables this level. We can now enhance the natural VI by adding our VI improvers from our previous discussionw. Now the enhanced VI for this same oil can be measured at 145 to 150. The higher the VI the more temperature stable the oil is. Now, untreated synthetic group IV or group V will have a natural VI as high as 190, revealing its incredible temperature stable viscosity over a broad temperature range.
Thus, with Mobil 1 MXT, it is made with a 40W base stock yet meets the API testing requirement for cold flow of a 10W. (actually almost a 0W but could you imagine how many folks would buy a 0W-40 motorcycle oill? None.. TOO Thin!!)
This all requires a paradigm shift in thinking in translating Group IV or Group V chemistry from mineral base. The whole API XXW-40 rating program was geared to multi-viscosity mineral based oils..
With synthetics it is a whole different program. Another example of the disparity. A 10W-40 mineral
based oil will be a sollid at around 20 degrees below zero F. Yet the Mobil 1 MX4T still flows freely at 40 below zero F!
Hope I am cleariing the air, if not keep the questions coming..
And yes, for the person who has run a 15W-50 in his/her engine.. No problem. I am just a nit picking lube engineer sharing information. As with Ducati, oil/lubrication is a personal issue. My quest is sharing sound lubrication principles so all can make an informed choice.
George Morrison, STLE CLS

philb:
To try to clarify: The oil weight rating scale still assumes mineral oils that vary widely in visosoty with temperature. So something rated as a straight 40W oil, for instance, is assumed to be as think as a mineral 40W at cold temperatures (i.e. quite thick), and to be as thin as a mineral 40W at high temperatures (i.e. quite thin). A "multi-grade" of, say 10W-40, is as thick as a mineral 10W when cold (i.e much less thick than a cold mineral 40w), and as thin as a mineral 40W when hot.

This does *not* mean that the 10W-40 is actually thicker when hot than it is when cold. A mineral 40W oil is less viscous when hot than a mineral 10W is when cold, because of the large changes in viscosity of mineral oils with temperature.

So the bottom line is that a "multi-weight" oil still does change viscosity with temperature, and gets thinner with heat, just not nearly as much as a natural mineral oil does. This is achieved in mineral oils with additives. With sythetics, it is achieved by actually controlling the composition of the oil during manufacture, so that the size of the hydrocarbon molecules are much more consistent than the wide mixture that you get from natural sources. So a properly manufactured synthetic oil inherently behaves much better.

As for what to use in your bike, do what the manufacturer says. Mine said use 20W-50, so that's what I've been putting in for the last 126,000 miles.

The difference with motorcycle vs. car oils, is that a car oil is assumed to only contact the engine, whereas a motorcycle-formulated oil is expected to also run through the transmission. Transmission gears put a high shear loading on oil, much higher than any part of the engine does, and will chew up a mineral oil in short order, signficantly reducing its effectiveness. Synthetic oils, being inherently more stable and consistent, will not suffer as much, but will still be affected to some extent. Motorcycle oils have additives to resist these higher forces, and thereby enable the oil to last longer.

So, unless you plan to change your oil every 1,000 miles or so (or if you don't actually ride very often and so won't ever put many miles on the bike), I would recommend you go with a motorcycle-specific oil, to prevent premature wear. Some will dispute the need and extra cost, but I have seen and heard of quite a few bike engines which have required early rebuilds due to use of car oils. The old phrase that applies here is "penny wise and pound foolish"

philb

ducpainter:
Only one more question George. Do you work for Mobil? cheeky

Georgecls:
No, I do not work for Mobil. I am very much biased towards Mobil from 25+ years of working with lubricants of all manufacture; through the years I have developed about 6 inches of scar tissue where I care not to discuss from using various lubricants in severe applications. i.e. as a lube engineer you make lubricant recommendations; then they fail, it is my fault, not the lubricant. Thus one develops a group of lubricants one can recommend and *know* they will work. Thus my Mobil Bias... I do work for a company that sells Mobil and many other lubricants. But it is not my intent to sell Mobil products on this site, only using them as reference for examples of Group IV synthetics, and I am totally familiar with their performance, formulation, and can speak with authority. There are many wonderful Group IV & Group V motorcycle oils on the market, I just do not have technical background with them.
And regarding the advisability of using a Group IV or Group V synthetic motorcycle oil, as we have discussed, the plastomer VI improvers are subject to shear, even in an automotive engine. Those same VI improvers used in mineral oil based are *really* sheared when they are used in gearbox applications, such as ours. With synthetics using little or none of these, the lubricating qualities of the oil are consistent and of course far superior to mineral based oils in terms of film strength, thermal stability, resistance to oxidation, ease of shifting, rust prevention, etc. etc.

ducpainter:
George I was being, or rather trying to be, funny. I meant no disrespect, and truly was implying nothing. Do you have any first hand knowledge, or other knowledge of Klotz lubricants?

Georgecls:
Ducpainter, your question deserved an answer, as I discussed an awful lot of "Mobil" and not other excellent brands. A deserved question as you have no doubt seen oil pedlers selling their wares online. My presence, my commitment is a major segment of my STLE CLS certification; i.e. to share lubricant knowledge. I was answering your excellent, very relevant question..
Klotz makes excellent products but I do not have first hand knowledge/experience with them.
George Morrison
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« Reply #4 on: May 13, 2008, 10:12:18 PM »

ducpainter:
And is appreciated, as there is as much myth with regards to lubricants, as fuels, and coatings. For example, I use Klotz because it was described to me as a lubricant that worked under conditions of stress as well as periods of little or no use due to it's "clingabilty"(definitely not a technical term), with absolutely no proof. Some use it because they like the smell. Considering the price per quart there are very possibly better choices.

Georgecls:
And the term "clingability" is indeed a trait that we very much need in engines that may be idle for extended periods.* i.e. winter for us in the midwest..* Metal attraction is a natural, inherent aspect of Group IV and Group V synthetics.* They will cling to metal surfaces for a much longer period of time vs. mineral based oils, especially after engine shut down.* Mineral based oils are vaporized quickly in the hot sections of the engine; cylinder bores, etc.* The areas where we need lubrication immediately on start-up.* Synthetics, with their higher flash points, remain on those surfaces and provide a lubrication boundary layer on start-up.* Excellent corrosion protection is also provided during this period.* This is true for most all Group IV and Group V engine oils...
George Morrison, STLE CLS

terry:
George, thanks for explanation on viscosity. Most guys dread an 'oil' thread but this one is different and good stuff. If I can refer you to your earlier statement about Mobil V Twin oil not being suitable for the Duc engine, Mobil actually say it's suitable for extreme operating conditions like racing. Read here.
Why is your opinion different please?

Georgecls:
Mobil V-Twin can certainly be used in our engines. However, with such a heavy operational viscosity, horsepower loss and heat will be the two by-products. I know this sounds strange but in racing applications we really do not stress an optimal viscosity engine oil. 99% of the lubrication in our engines is hydrodynamic lubrication. Hydrodynamic lubrication is where the person is water skiing on a very thin water film being pulled by a vehicle equipped with Goodyear Aquatread tires. In areas where one would think would not be hydrodynamic such as camshafts, valves, it is still metal floating on an oil film; hydrodynamic lubrication. So, even in racing applications, as long as we have the oil viscosity in the engine that it was designed for, we will then achieve maximum horsepower, best engine cooling and performance using the lowest optimal viscosity engine oil. On a dyno, one can see as much as 1 to 3 horsepower gain from just engine oil viscosity change. Which is why 99% of all NASCAR engines are running a 0W-30 engine oil. Same with Formula 1, Grand am, etc. are all reducing operational viscosities. Two years ago all the Grand Am racers were having heating issues at Daytona 24 as it was unusually warm. Except one. All of the Toyota engined cars were running Mobil 1 15W-50 except one which was running Mobil 1R 0W-30. It finished 3rd and the others were waay back, laps down. . For these same reasons we have been discussing they are changing from their previous 50W and 60W mineral oils to lower viscosity full synthetic engine oils.
Driving short distances, stop and go, will stress engine oil far more than racing applications.
George Morrison, STLE CLS

hiero:
hey george, great thread so far!! I love me some engineer speak when it comes to stuff I actually care about!  Wink

I had a question about something I heard about before in my oil research days...

I read somewhere (maybe from bobistheoilguy forums), that the smaller the spread in numbers in the viscosity ratings(20w50 would be 30 difference, 15w50 would be 35), the less prone to shear the oil is. Now that's pared down to very simplistic terms, but what's the word on this?

A bit of a moot point in this discussion as we're looking at 10w40 and 20w50, but something of interest to me nonetheless...

Georgecls:
An excellent question, regarding viscosity spreads. With a mineral based oil, the further the spread, the more susceptible the oil will be to viscosity improver shear, shock, etc. VI improver shock is a very real, temporary condition, an almost smashing of the VI improver. With a large amount of VI improver this can lead to spalling, high wear rates, especially in engine/gearbox combinations such as ours. With a full synthetic, depending on the sophistication of the base stock, minimal VI improver use provides for a very shear-resistant lubricant. Even in a 10W-40 spread, it is possible to achieve this performance through base stock choice alone. However, as I said previously, in large scale production small amounts of very high quality VI improvers may be used to provide a greater margin of assurance that the end products will far surpass API classification. The "expensivie" VI improvers are extremely shear resistant and when combined with a high quality synthetic base stock are synergistic in their bottom line performance. Additionally there are new base stocks which are blended with normal group IV and V which provide the same physical action as VI improvers but are completely impervious to shear and provide chemistry enhancement to the base stocks in terms of film strength, oxidation resistance and overall performance.
George Morrison, STLE CLS

hiero:
So george, how long then with the superior bases and VI stock in synthetics, especially newer synthetics, can you really go before the oil begins to feel the effects of shear and viscosity break down compared to mineral oils? Basically, what is a reasonable oil change interval if you use synthetics?

I tend to stick with a 3-4000 mile interval even with a full synthetic just because I like to keep tabs on what's going on with the innards of my engines AND because I work and feel it's an expense I can afford, but can this go significantly longer with synthetics (and heck, with mineral oils too?) or is it just not a good idea? (I probably won't change my habits no matter the answer, but I'm sure a lot of people who are reading this would love to know!) I have heard people speak conspiracy when it comes to the 3000 mile rule and oil companies just want to sell more product... would be nice to know the science...

Georgecls:
Excellent question..... Re: "how long can we now go with these super base stocks and additive packages?" As our discussion has evolved, we have shear resistant base stocks, high performance additive packages, oxidative resistant lubricants but the oils are still subject to contamination from the power cycle and gear box wear. You have heard for years about doubling, tripling ODI's with synthetic oils vs. a mineral based engine oil in autos. The most significant need for changing oils IS contamination. Synthetic lubricants have the capabilities to last *much* longer than a mineral based oil but are still subject to the same contamination issues that confront mineral based oils. However, one of the prime sources of contamination is blow-by. Even in a very new, tight engine we will get some level of blow-by occuring; exhaust by-product gasses are going to get into the engine oil. Exhaust gasses will bring all manner of contaminates ranging from acids, soot, water, and even raw gasoline. With a full Group IV or V synthetic base stock, we do have significantly lower levels of combustion by-product contamination. Piston rings require an oil film for their sealing action. At & near top dead center the cylinder walls are at constant elevated temperatures. Mineral based oils continually burn off, leaving the top 1/4 to 1/2 inch of cylinder wall essentially dry, with no oil film. If you have ever overhauled a gasoline engine with many miles on it you can many times actually see this area of high wear. Correspondingly, with no oil film, blow-by occurs until the rings encounter the oil film on their trip down the cylinder wall. With the oil film, sealing then occurs. Synthetic base stocks will live at higher temps and provide an oil film nearly to TDC, thus providing an oil film for the rings to seal. Thus when ignition occurs, the rings have an oil film, seal, and very little blow-by occurs. Additionally, this is where the measurable power increase at the rear wheel occurs with synthetic engine oils. One can actually *feel* the difference in performance with the right hand! We are now deriving all of the power from combustion. And our engine oil is staying much cleaner as blow-by is greatly reduced, easily enabling doubling, and even longer ODI's on automotive/truck applications.
That said, unfortunately we have a gearbox to contend with and some Ducati have wet clutches. Both of these components add a large amount contaminants to our oil, which will create wear. Especially the gearbox as the steel wear metals will be a super abrasive for any yellow metal in our engines.. Sooo, bottom line. Yes, we could theoretically significantly extend our ODI's with the oil's capaibilities but are very much limited with the high level of contaminants the oil gets from the gearbox and clutch (if wet). So regular ODI's are in order. Hey, it's only 3 or 4 quarts.. :-)

A method to *know* what is taking place in an engine is to run an engine oil analysis to determine contaminant levels. Oil analysis is the method we use for cars, trucks and off highway equipment to determine optimum ODI intervals. In some cases we have over the road trucks going 100,000 miles between changes (filter at 50,000), with oil analysis being the driver. Then one *knows* exactly what is going on in the engine. Oil analysis kits are relatively inexpensive ($15 or so) and invaluable in determining engine status. Like taking a walk inside your engine.

George Morrison, STLE CLS

hiero:
so george, what do you know about filtration then (I'm thinking a whole lot)? It seems to me that there are just tons of filters out there and the ol' cut the things in half and look at what they're made of test can only give you so much. It seems a lot of upper crust filters use multiple layers of differing materials (ie paper, glass, synthetics, and apparently amsoil has announced the new use of nanofibers) to achieve the best flow and filtration... what's the word?

I remember a few years ago when bobsitheoilguy set up some cool flow test rigs, but was never quite sure on the scientific validity of it all, sure did set up some interesting data though...

Georgecls:
Yes, there are filters and then there are filters... Filters range from near worthless to pretty good. Unfortunately there are not "Superb" engine oil filters currently available from anyone at this point. It becomes a cost vs. practicality issue in that a state of the art full microglass (sometimes referred to as synthetic) element is a very sophisticated design utilizing stainless screens front and back of the glass medium (it will not support itself as paper does) which leads to extremely high cost of manufacture. Which makes them cost prohibitive when we change them with frequency. But boy do they ever filter! 1 micron beta 1000 (absolute, absolute) With paper we are lucky to get a 30 micron Beta 50... (70% +/- filtration of 30 microns and larger)
Paper elements, on the other hand, are very cost effective but little else. Generally 50% of a paper element will not allow fluids to even pass through it while the other half stops 30 microns and larger pretty well but not much in the way of smaller particles. Combination glass/paper blends are coming into the market with much better flow capacities (maybe 80 to 90% will actually flow fluids) and filtration yet can be reasonably priced in that they use paper as its support; but it is a blend and not anywhere near the performance level of a full microglass element. One still has to be careful about brands as some adverrtise all levels of performance yet still use lower quality internal construction and charge large dollars for their products. Do I hear Profit Center?
Some new filters are coming on market as I type this (literally) which we will soon have to do di-sections and compare with standards. I hate to say, "stay tuned" but in the next weeks we will hopefully have some new very high quality spin on filters to discuss..... Hopefully with applications for our Ducati...
George Morrison, STLE CLS
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« Reply #5 on: May 13, 2008, 10:12:44 PM »

terry:
Good stuff George; so is the genuine Duc filter as good as any, or if not which brand do you use?

CETME:
This is from the Amsoil data sheet for their 20w50 motorcycle oil http://www.amsoil.com/StoreFront/mcv.aspx

Could you please translate this so we can fully understand? To me, it shows that at 100celsius, that the oil is thinner than at 40celsius. I thought that oil viscosity and temperature had a fairly linear inverse relationship.

Kinematic Viscosity @ 100°C, cSt (ASTM D-445)
20.1

Kinematic Viscosity @ 40°C, cSt (ASTM D-445)
151.98

Viscosity Index (ASTM D-2270)
153

CCS Viscosity (ASTM D2602)
5609 @ -15°C

Georgecls:
At this point, Genuine Duc is as good as the rest... The filter can be raised to a higher level of filtration by attaching a high quality neodymium magnet to the outer case; the neo can serve two causes. Operate light change sensors at intersections and provide some level of additional oil filtration in that a strong magnet (which neo is) will filter from 1 angstrom on up through chunks and clunks. With the majority of our wear metals being ferrous, the addition of a neo magnet as additional filtration reduces the loading on the paper element enabling the filter to do its job better. Attaching the Neo anywhere on the outside of the element will work as the oil travels from the outside in. Thus you will be capturing wear metals before they go through the filter medium.
George Morrison, STLE CLS

Georgecls:
Re: Fairly linear.. Linear relative to mineral based oils... To emphasize my point of the vast differences in rate of viscosity change for synthetics vs. mineral based oils . Yes, synthetics do change viscosity relative to temperature but not nearly, not in the same world, as mineral based oils....
As example, we can have a straight grade 40W full synthetic oil which will pour down to 60 below zero yet a mineral based 14W-40 engine oil will a solid at -15 degrees F... That is a *huge* difference; which was my point. Relative linearity. Obviously I did not do a good job of clearing that, explaining..
Thank you for the excellent question.....

944SSie:
I usually avoid these discussions since up to this point an oil discussion was an oil discussion was an oil discussion, but George has certainly added a great dimension to this discussion - Thanks George!

I do have a question though. My Ducati motors (1999 and 2000) use roller bearings where the later motors switched to plain bearings. I understand roller bearings require oil volume where plain bearings enjoy oil pressure. Will this difference impact the idea that despite the owner's manual suggestion of 20W-50 a 10W-40 is preferable?


I have always used a Mobil 1 20W-50 but last summer I started using Mobil 1 15W-50 (no perceptable differences noted). I ride when the weather is warm (>50*F) and the New England summers can scratch 100*F, but normally fluctuate through the 75*F - 85*F range. I have not noticed any change in operating oil temp despite a switch to a "thinner" oil, or did I not switch to a thinner oil? Also, during a recent late oil change it was 25*F and the Mobil 1 15W-50 was thick and slow to pour, notably thicker than in the summer. This seems to contradict the suggestion that synth oil doesn't change much until the temps were well below freezing.

philb:
Quote from: CETME
This is from the Amsoil data sheet for their 20w50 motorcycle oil http://www.amsoil.com/StoreFront/mcv.aspx

Could you please translate this so we can fully understand?* To me, it shows that at 100celsius, that the oil is thinner than at 40celsius. I thought that oil viscosity and temperature had a fairly linear inverse relationship.

Kinematic Viscosity @ 100°C, cSt (ASTM D-445) 20.1
Kinematic Viscosity @ 40°C, cSt (ASTM D-445) 151.98
Viscosity Index (ASTM D-2270) * * * * * * * * 153
CCS Viscosity (ASTM D2602) * * * * * * * * * * 5609 @ -15°C

Oil viscosity (for any oil) varies inversely with temperature, that is, higher temperature means lower viscosity. *The linearity of the relationship varies from oil to oil, as does the steepness of the slope (i.e. the amount of change in viscosity per degree of temperature). *For what we're talking about, synthetic oils change viscosity by a smaller amount, and in a more linear fashion than mineral-based oils, but they do still change. *So yes, we would expect to see what is shown here: that the oil will be thinner (less viscous) at the higher temperature.

philb

Georgecls:
Regarding the 20W50 vs. the 15W-50 Mobil 1. Again the W is in relation to its winter rating only and that is a measure of how it *flows* at cold temperatures. Operationally you have a rock solid 50W in both cases. Both oils are operational 50W oils. i.e. the 15W50 Mobil 1 is not thinner than the 20W-50 Mobil 1. In fact both oils may well be identical with the manufacturer wanting an oil for a specific application and utilizing an API rating/label for a certain manufacturer's recommendation, etc. As we discussed before, some synthetic engine oils could surpass a 0W rating but no one would purchase a 0W-40 motorcycle oil as it is "too thin". But as we now know, it would not be thin ........ So, marketing comes into play, even with some specification sheets being incredibly conservative as a manufacturer may not want to reveal what the oil's ultimate capabilities really are... There is a cloaked secrecy among oil manufacturers, pride of invention, chemistries, etc..
George Morrison, STLE CLS

CETME:
so in effect, the slope of the inverse relationship of viscosity and temperature on a mineral oil is much steeper than that of synthetics?

Valvoline conventional 20w50 which I assume is a Group III

@ 40 celsius is 165.9
@ 100 celsius is 18.5
It has a pour point of -27 celsius

Amsoil 20w50 which I assume is a fully synthetic Group IV is not much different I would say

@40 celsius the kinematic viscosity is 151.98
@100celsius it is 20.1
It has a pour point of -39 celsius


The numbers seem pretty close..... I'm not trying to contradict anything you're saying, I'm just trying to understand the numbers here

mitt:
George,

Thanks for the lessons so far from an engineers perspective.

I would be interested in any opinions on what I am currently using for my M1000, Motul 5100 15W-50 Ester. I am using it not so much by my choice, but it is what was available and recommended at my Ducati shop.

http://www.motul.com.au/product_line_up/4stroke/4stroke14.html

mitt

mustang:
Yes this is a fantastic thread, thank you George for the continued involvement. The point on the magnet is a great idea, I use one myself with a cup to reinforce the magnetic flux.

You are reducing my fears on the oil that I may choose for a trip down to Cali for the MotoGP. As I am from Canada, the ambient in the early season will be cool leading me to choose Mobil1, MX4T 10W40.

But for the trip (July), the shop is strong in the recommended use of 50 weight (V-TWIN 20W50). So just to ask what appears to be the theme of this thread, as shown in the owners manual and underseat sticker. That the use of 10W40 would be suitable for the trip given that the ambient temperature would definitely exceed 40 Deg Celsius.

Or should I consider the thicker oil just for the trip.

My apologies - my head is spinning on this simple issue. Undecided
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« Reply #6 on: May 13, 2008, 10:13:00 PM »

Georgecls:
Re the use of 20W-50 for the heat of summer. If the manual calls for a 10W-40 for your model, by all means, Mobil 1 MX4T. As we have discussed, the use of Mobil 1 V-Twin 20W-50 will actually create more heat as more energy is being expended in just churning the heavy 50W oil. As a very dramatic demonstration in clinics, I have folks churn a 10W-40 with a manual beater, then churn a 20W-50 and watch the looks on their faces.. The difference in "churn factor" is huge.. The same with our engines.. We are not going to be sacrificing film strength with the full synthetic.
You will most likely be lecturing your shop folks about the attributes of synthetic oils as you now have a much greater knowledge base than they!
As example of the relevence of viscosity and synthetic oil, every jet/turbine engine flying is using a full synthetic (most likely Mobil Jet II) 5W engine oil... Yet the engines are turning in the 27,000 to 35,000 rpm region. Centrafugal bearing loading is incredibly high. Yet the 5W full synthetic oil provides superb lubrication for those bearings; not just bearings, but also the gearboxes which drive generators, hydraulic pumps, and various other mechanical attachments. The relatively thin synthetic oils go through literally thousands of heat cycles yet the oils are not changed until 20,000 and 30,000 hour intervals, depending on the airline.. As example of just what synthetic base stocks can do.
George Morrison, STLE CLS

mysfitt:
This is an incredibly informative thread. Oil is something that comes up frequently on this board, and as others have noted, it mostly rapidly descends into squabbling over insubstantiated claims. George has made this one a gem so I'm going to make it a sticky. I'm also going to ask a question of my own. It's something that's been touched on, but I'd like a little more information for clarification.

Motorcycle specific oils claim that they have special additives to deal with the additional shearing forces that the oil is submitted to in our transmissions and wet clutches. From what I've gathered from this thread, full synthetics do not take as much of a beating from shearing forces since they do not have or require the VI modifiers that mineral oil has [which is actually what is broken down]. That being said, why would a motorcycle-specific oil be any better than a full synthetic?

Thanks George, I believe you may just settle a huge debate that's been going on for some time here.

Georgecls:
Cetme, Regarding your excellent question and the Amsoil/Valvoline comparison and the similarities of the pour points along with viscosities.. Unfortunately I do not have personal knowledge of the composition of the Amsoil 20W-50 but would like to also add the same numbers for Mobil 1 V-Twin 20W-50. Beginning with pour points. Valvoline 20W-50 at -27C, Amsoil at -39C, while Mobil 1 V-Twin has a pour of -51C (60 below zero F!). The Mobil 1 reflects a *significantly* lower pour point than both the Valvoline and Amsoil. The Vis at 40 is Valvoline 165, Amsoil 151 while V-Twin is 130. Vis at 100C for Valvoline is 18.5, Amsoil 20.1 and V-Twin at 17.7. Again the V-Twin reflects a more linear nature in its viscosity plot vs. the Valvoline & Amsoil. Amsoil may be using some level of Group 1 or II in its formulation; I am not familiar with Amsoil formulations but am with Mobil and as can be seen, the V-Twin is indeed formulated with 100% synthetic base stock.
Moreover, the point of our previous discussions is that, yes, a mineral base oil could be additized to approximate the viscosity temperature performance, on paper, of a full synthetic. The shortcoming is as the saying goes "one cannot make a silk purse out of a cow's ear". i.e the additives used to bolster the mineral base stocks are just unable to provide the overall performance level of the synthetic base stocks in a real working engine/transmission. The VI improvers, as we have discussed, are subject to shear, shock and even filtration loss. In high load areas such as high speed engine camshafts, VI improvers can just collapse under high film strength loading; what we are left is the base oil we started with in the formulation, in this case a 20W mineral based oil.
George Morrison, STLE CLS

hiero:
I came up with another question yesterday that I'm sure you can help out with George!

I was looking at my stock of oil in my garage yesterday and was wondering if it had a shelf life of any sort? I tend to buy cases of oil to be used as necessary so this becomes an issue if there is a 'use by' date where the properties of the oil degrade from just sitting around...

Georgecls:
Regarding synthetics vs. "motorcycle oils"..* A full synthetic oil whether it be PAO or Ester, provides a much higher level of film strength vs. a mineral base oil primarily from the fact that the base oil is "manufactured".* The process produces molecules which are all identical and thus bonding is near perfect.* Mineral base oils are plethora of chemistries, everything from dinosaur bones (chemically) to leaves and branches (chemically).* Thus the composition of mineral base oils is a mish-mash and the resulting chemical bonding is marginal, at best.* The result is that full synthetics have a film strength many times that of even the highest quality mineral based oils and require much less addization.* In the previously discussed Turbine Oil example, the film strength actually increases with use.* The turbine oil provides better extreme pressure wear protection over time than when new, which is completely contrary to mineral base oils.
Back to motorcycle specific oils.* From the above, it is obvious that a motorcycle specific full synthetic base stock oil will provide superior performance in every perspective with minimal additization.* From the lubrication of the engine to the transmission, the motorcycle specific full synthetic is going to provide the highest level of lubrication, resistance to shear, oxidation resistance,horsepower generation and cooling.* By motorcycle specific full synthetic I am referring to formulations that do not contain automotive lubricity enhancements and associated automotive EP additive minimizations.* This is what most companies are providing with their "Motorcycle specific" formulations.* Some companies are going one step further and using even higher performance synthetic base stocks and additives in their motorcycle oiles which in turn cost more to produce and are priced higher on the shelves.

With our demanding requirements of engine, transmission and in some cases clutches, it is very difficult to formulate a mineral based oil that would equal the performance of a motorcycle specific full synthetic oil.* Similar to the foundation of a house, when the* base stock is a full synthetic we have an extraordinary foundation to build the formulation.. The full synthetic base stock does everything to the 9's naturally, unaddized.*

Some manufacturers of mineral & mineral/synthetic blend based *motorcycle specific* oils are using higher cost, shear resistant VI improvers, higher quality base stocks,* but these oils still do not match the performance of a full synthetic base stock in extreme conditions, from my experience.* Back to that "foundation" discussion. Sometimes those conditions cannot be anticipated.. However, these motorcycle specific oils are superior to regular automotive oils for our applications.

And then we have those manufacturers who shall remain nameless who are just re-labeling automotive oils with "Motorcyel Use Labels", getting on the motorcycle specific bandwagon through the magic of marketing and label making....* *These oils are not motorcycle specific in their formulation and are not providing increased performance in any way.
George Morrison, STLE CLS

mysfitt:
George,

Thank you for the response. It would seem that you are saying that a regular full synthetic automotive oil would be superior to any mineral based oil, whether it is motorcycle specific or not. However, the motorcycle specific full synthetics are superior to a full synthetic "car oil" because they do not include "automotive lubricity enhancements" to quote you. I've heard automotive oils refer to "friction enhancers" that reduce friction in auto engines that some have cited as detremental to wet clutch operation. I have personally used these same oils, 15W50 Mobil1 "gold cap" to be specific, without experiencing any clutch slippage.

What you have said has made good sense. I was actually looking for more of a comparison between "automotive" full synth oil and "motorcycle" full synth oil than a comparision between motorcycle oils and full synthetic oils. I apologize for not being more specific with my question. Could you give us some more information on what additives some motorcycle specific oils use and what their benefits are? I ask because the cost difference can be pretty substantial between a quart of Mobil 1 15W-50 and a quart of Mobil 1 MX4T 10W-40. I'd like to know what additional benefit that difference will provide. Smiley

Georgecls:
In the case of the Mobil 1 motorcycle vs. automotive oils. Mobil 1 Mx4T and V-Twin oils are formulated with a higher quality (higher cost) base stock which provides an even higher level of base stock performance then the Mobil 1 automotive. Additive differentiation between auto and bike is that (1) automotive engine oils are restricted in the amounts and types of additives that can be used due to catalytic converter and EPA state/local restrictions. Those additives are the "good ones" we need for our combined engine transmission; ZDP (Zinc dithiophosphate) for one, which provides extreme pressure, anti-wear, and oxidation stabilization. And other additives of lesser nature but still valuable in supplementing base stocks. (2) energy conservation additives. These are used in automotive oils to assist manufacturers in fuel conservation and simply make the oil 'slipprier'. These energy additives can cause clutch slippage in certain applications depending on clutch face material, stress, heat, etc..

So, in a motorcycle specific such as Mobil 1 MX4T and V-Twin, Mobil is starting out with a higher quality synthetic base stock, higher treat levels of premium additives specific to motorcycle requirements and a more limited production, all of which contribute to a higher end user cost... It's only 3 quarts.... :-)

George Morrison, STLE CLS

metalman:
Thanks for all the useful info George. I think we are all glad you bought a Ducati! I'll be switching to 10-40 from 20-50.
Two questions, during break-in, would you suggest dyno oil for the first (fill in the blank) miles or is synthetic recommended from mile "0"?
Then also my mid 70's V-twin Duc has all roller bearings would you go 10-40 with that as well?

Georgecls:
Excellent question: What to do for break in? Mineral or synthetic.. All Corvette, Porsche, Mercedes AMG are shipped from the factory with Mobil 1 synthetic oil. The old wive's tail of "synthetics are so slippery you don't get seating proper seating" is just simply not true...
However, during break in we generate large amounts of wear metals in the seating process, and we need to flush the system. It is expensive to use synthetics for this process and of little or no added value. Several short oil change intervals early on with high quality mineral based oils would be ideal, then switch to the full synthetic..
George Morrison, STLE CLS

ducpainter:
George, I would like to ask one last question regarding manufacturers recommended viscosity. If my particular year specifies 20W-50, will any harm, aside from the previously stated benefit, be done by using 10W40 instead? Thanks.
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« Reply #7 on: May 13, 2008, 10:13:17 PM »

mitt:
Another ?-

Can you do damage an engine by constantly changing brands? For example, my bike origanally came with Shell synth, then 2 oil changes with AGIP synth, then 2 oil changes with Motul synth, and now based on your recommendations I should use a 10-40 instead of a 15-50.

mitt

Georgecls:
If Ducati specificies only the20W-50, I would suggest the 20W-5050; if the owner's manual gives a viscosity range recommendation (which generally is done to compensate for mineral base oils, ambient temps around the world) then proceed with that option..

Regarding changing brands. In this case each oil was a very high quality oil so there should be no issues. But an excellent question especially as it relates to Motorcycle oils. Manufacturers do have different philosphies of addization, base stocks, etc. so it is adviseable to minimize oil brand changes if it all possible. With some base stocks, conflicts can occur creating acid by-products, while certain additives can negate a particular additive function. This issue is not so relevant with automotive oils manufacturers have been rorced to compatability due to SAE/API requirements; however, in motorcycle oils we have some pretty esoteric products being made which do not have to meet any particular standards of compatability..
So, yes, minimize brand switching if at all possible.. It would be an extremely rare situation where conflicts would occur But.........
George Morrison, STLE CLS

CETME:
Wow George... thanks for all the info!

one more thing... What do you think about using Delvac 1 in a motorcycle? I hear its also available as the new synthetic Truck/Van/SUV oil....

considering it was designed for diesel engines, wont it have more ZDP's and less emissions restrictions?

terry:
Here's a slightly different one for you George. This is the first winter I've had my air-cooled Monster and I had a 50 mile ride today with an ambient of 7°C. The oil temp gauge didn't get above 74°C and when I got home there was some white condensation in the sight glass and inside of oil-filler cap.* I know if I get the engine hot it will remove it but does this permanently affect the lubricating properties of the oil at all? I'm thinking of blanking off the oil-cooler to get the engine hotter, so any advice please?

Georgecls:
Regarding Delvac 1.* It is a full synthetic engine oil formulated for extended drains for diesel engines. And yes, formulating for a diesel means fortifying with high levels of additive to include detergency, anti-wear, anti-oxidation, soot dispersion and acid neutralization.* Yes, it could be a good Ducati or other motorcycle engine oil.* Delvac 1 does not contain any lubricity enhancers ala Cafe, so no clutch issues.* Delvac 1 would not be as optimally formulated as Mobil 1 MX4T for our needs but would far, far surpass any automotive type oils in terms of performance.* It is a rock solid 40W yet flows to -40F and easily withstands 3,000 degree F turbocharger temps..* Delvac 1 is an extraordinary oil.
I would choose Mobil 1 MX4T over Delvac 1 for my Ducati.* I would not say Delvac 1 is a compromise as it certainly is not as the oil is gangbusters in every paramter, but from a lube engineer's perspective, optimization, Mobil 1 MX4T. And by the way, that was a very sophisticated question......
George Morrison

Georgecls:
Regarding winter/cold weather operation.* It is most important to get the oil up to a 170 to 180F level for 15 to 20 minutes to allow moisture to release completely.* If one operates below that temperature continuously, water will build in the oil.* Engine oil that has a milky appearance, has entrained water.* It can easily be confirmed by doing the "scrambled egg test".* *Extract some of the oil and put it on a hot plate.* If you hear the sound of eggs frying, it is water.* The by-products of water are corrosion and in limited amounts, additive depletion.* Reducing engine oil cooling a bit, riding longer, harder, getting up to 180F will release the moisture.* If not possible, simply change the oil more frequently.* It is very important that during storage or minimal riding that the oil be kept fresh and free of entrained moisture.* Even if you just change the oil without changing the filter, you will have fresh additive, minimal moisture and excellent corrosion protection.* The situation is exacerbated with synthetic engine oil in that we create less heat with synthetic oil, disappate the heat faster, making it *really* difficult to hit that 180 degree F mark!
George Morrison, STLE CLS

SMOOV_S4:
George,

What size Neo Magnet should I use on my S4 oil filter (looking on Ebay right now)? Thanks for the insight. I'll be looking for some Mx4T tonight. Thanks again.

PK

Georgecls:
Re: Neodymium Magnet.* Try to obtain the highest quality neo you can source.* With Neo, a high number rating, even tho quite small, will radiate through the steel casing and present an excellent magnetic field inside.* So, size is not as important with Neo as the base quality. Something rated in the 30 region or higher would be excellent.* A high rating neo from erasure size through quarter-size would be excellent and more than one strategically placed around the permiter would be excellent..
Any neo or any size/quality is better than none at all.
George Morrison, STLE CLS

slowpoke13:
Quote from: Georgecls
Re: Neodymium Magnet.* Try to obtain the highest quality neo you can source.* With Neo, a high number rating, even tho quite small, will radiate through the steel casing and present an excellent magnetic field inside.* So, size is not as important with Neo as the base quality. Something rated in the 30 region or higher would be excellent.* A high rating neo from erasure size through quarter-size would be excellent and more than one strategically placed around the permiter would be excellent..
Any neo or any size/quality is better than none at all.
George Morrison, STLE CLS

Do you have pics of the neo magnet on yours? Just looking for an idea of relationship vs. size.

Can you get too strong of a magnet? Did you have to glue the magnet on or did its own magnetic properties keep it there?

Georgecls:
Neo is one super, super strong magnet and will stay in place. Some use some designer duct tape for security but should not be necessary..
I am sorry my bike is in the shop right now so unable to show photos but will try and get some posted of samples neo sizes tomorrow.. They are available in just about any configuration imaginable, just need to be selective in power rating. Again, 30 or higher is desired. They are relativelly inexpensive. Regular steel magnets do not have the field strength to penetrate the case. Magnetic fields dissapate very quickly going through metal; additionally iron magnets temporarily loose their field at elevated temperature, rending them near useless as a filter agent, especially after having gone through the steel case of the filter.
George Morrison, STLE CLS
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« Reply #8 on: May 13, 2008, 10:13:33 PM »

slowpoke13:
Quote from: Georgecls
Neo is one super, super strong magnet and will stay in place.* Some use some designer duct tape for security but should not be necessary..*
I am sorry my bike is in the shop right now so unable to show photos but will try and get some posted of samples neo sizes tomorrow..* *They are available in just about any configuration imaginable, just need to be selective in power rating.* Again, 30 or higher is desired.* They are relativelly inexpensive.* Regular steel magnets do not have the field strength to penetrate the case. Magnetic fields dissapate very quickly going through metal; additionally iron magnets temporarily loose their field at elevated temperature, rending them near useless as a filter agent, especially after having gone through the steel case of the filter.*
George Morrison, STLE CLS

And you just put it on the base of your oil filter? Remove it prior to oil change and slap it on the new filter?

Sintered or bonded neo mags?

Sorry if it's a lot of questions. Just reading stuff from:
http://www.rare-earth-magnets.com/magnets.htm
And trying to figure out size, type, and price.

Something like this should work, right?
http://www.rare-earth-magnets.com/detail.aspx?ID=90

Georgecls:
Regarding Neo placement. Anywhere the magnet size you use will have a secure flat surface to adhere to. A neo half the size of a pencil erasure can have tremendous magnetic strength... Your hard drive is run by a miniscule neo magnet and yes I have seen those magnets attached to oil filters; they work just fine. It would be good to have a zinc coated magnet as neo is quite friable, fragile: do NOT play with neo once you get it. The magnet is so strong that it has the capability of destroying itself.. It IS tempting for all men to play with magnets.. Neo's are NOT to be played with. Get it, put it on the filter, forget it.. Some neo is strong enough to not only destroy itself but smash fingers on their way to steel..
George Morrison, STLE CLS

Georgecls:
One point I did not get answered relative to the Neo. With each filter change you just remove the Neo magnet, change the filter, then re-install the magnet on the new filter.. If you have a filter cutter you will find some amount of powder/paste ferrous on the inside wall where the magnet was located. In some cases I have seen fairly significant amounts of powder/paste/chunks after the initial install, then settling down to just a small amount of powder/paste.
We are removing one of the most abrasive components (steel) in our engine oil and with our combination gearbox/engine, the gearbox is continually generating steel wear particles ranging from angstrom size up through chunks and clunks. Our oil filters are filtering down to around 30 microns, leaving particles from 30 microns and smaller essentially unfiltered. The Neo, as I mentioned before, will provide filtration for that missing segment of wear particles. And reduce the loading on the filter element to do its job better.
George Morrison, STLE CLS

terry:
George, if I may refer you to an earlier comment you made where you said* that "When full synthetics are cooled, they do not thicken as mineral base oils do.* Same when heated; they retain their viscosity and do not thin."

I've just been out on bike for about 50 miles. Before leaving I checked oil level in sight glass in garage where temp was 7°C and it was noticeably slow in climbing up the glass as I lifted the bike upright from sidestand. When I returned, the oil was at 100°C and visually much more fluid so obviously thinner. I'm using Shell synthetic 10W-40. You've posted some good stuff George, but I'm not convinced about this one?

I posted yesterday to say with an ambient of 7°C* the max oil temp was 74°C. Today the ambient was about the same but I had blanked the oil-cooler with cardboard and the oil temp got to 90°C rising to 100°C at idle and bike stationary. I recommend blanking cooler to anyone with air-cooled engine at this time of year.

Georgecls:
Terry: Regarding synthetic oil viscosity stability relative to temperature change. My primary thrust was to hammer home the principals of viscosity change for synthetics vs. mineral based oils. Full synthetic oils do change viscosity with temperature change but on a side by side charting, the differerences in those rate of changes are significant. The engine oil you are using is labeled as a "unique fully synthetic lubricant" but is very likely a Group III mineral based oil. In Europe Castrol won the case that Group III Mineral based oils could be termed "synthetic". Later Castrol achieved the same here in the U.S. As example, the pour point indicated on the Product Data Sheet for Shell Advance Ultra 4 10W-40 is -30C (-22F).
Mobil 1 MX4T 10W-40 has a pour point of -54C (-65F).
As you can see, the cold weather performance for a Group IV full, or shall we say 'real', synthetic engine oil is *significantly* lower than a Group III mineral base stock oil. The difference in pour points reflect the viscosity stability of a Group IV or Group V full synthetic... The same correlation applies for high temperature viscosity performance.
George Morrison, STLE CLS

CETME:
George,

I bought a Scotts steel mesh oil filter a while ago. It claims to filter down to 35microns Absolute. Do you feel this is sufficient? or would a Ducati filter offer better filtration/flow? Here are some specs on it. It has no Anti Drain back valve, which really isnt needed on our engines because it is mounted vertically, but it doesnt have a bypass valve either, which can be a good thing, if the flow is sufficient when the oil is cool. I bought it because I change my oil every 1000 miles due to the wet clutch. Do you have any experience with these types of filters?

* Laser cut, medical grade, type 304 stainless steel micronic filter cloth.
* Nickel-plated rare earth magnet installed in the top for magnetic pre-filtering.
* 6061 billet aluminum canister designed to dissipate heat effectively.
* 35 micron (absolute) filtration
* Roughly 57 gallons per minute of oil flow at 70°F, 1PSI

Georgecls:
Re: Scotts filter. I am sorry but I have no direct knowledge with this particular filter but am familiar with similar filter arrangements. If the filter is of high quality construction, yes, they work well. One disadvantage is that on many screen arrangements they do not have the particulate capacity of a comparably sized paper/cellulose element thus can fill relatively quickly. Some have 1/5 the amount of effective surface area of comparable traditional filters. Of the stainless mesh screens I have worked with they have installed a pressure differential alert to advise when cleaning needs to be done. That would be my only strong suggestion, which it appears you are already going to adhere to: clean the screen frequently and well. With all of paper/cellulous disadvantages, they are forgiving and do hold a significant amount of contaminants.. So, just keep a close eye on screen fill to ensure good filter flow, throughput, and filtration.
George Morrison, STLE CLS

terry:
George, I did ask on page 2 "Another question is what are you calling fully synthetic because there has been some dispute about which oils can be called that. "
I was aware of the dispute about what can be called fully synthetic and now you tell me that the Shell oil I am using(as recommended by Ducati) is very likely a Group III. I really thought that I was using a genuine synthetic oil.
What actually determines the group that the oil belongs to? Have you got a list of which oils are Group III and Group IV?
Thanks George.*

Georgecls:
Terry, again, very good investigative work on your part in your noting the cold flow/viscosity increase of your Shell Advance Ultra 4. At even +7C/44F your oil is beginning to thicken noticeably.
Unfortunately, no, there is no official list of what is and what is not a true synthetic (group IV & Group V) any more. With the European and U.S. rulings that group III's can be called synthetic oils, one must dig through product data sheets for the information as to the oil's makeup.
It is discouraging, as everything we have been discussing in this thread has been relative to Group IV and Group V synthetic oils. Your question, comment and real world findings were at an excellent time in this discussion. Thank you,
George Morrison, STLE CLS

terry:
George, when I got this bike I was concerned when I saw the oil temp reach 130°C so contacted Shell to ask what temp the oil was ok for. I had this reply:

'Thank you for contacting Shell UK. Its generaly considered that bearing lubrication* in engines ceases to be good enough when the oil viscosity falls below 4 cSt.( In a passenger car )* *I have calculated that Advance Ultra 4* 10W 40 would need to reach about 180 C to get that thin . As this is a powerfull motorcycle it would be prudent to make an allowance and limit the temperature to 160 C.At 130 C the oil in question would be about 9 cSt.
Again being synthetic , short periods at 130 C are well within the capability of Advance Ultra.
I would expect the condition of the oil to deteriorate quickly beyond use at about 200-220 C. I hope this answers your questions.'

That appeared to be in-line with the fact that the high oil temp light comes on at 170°C and I have seen a temp of 150°C in very slow moving traffic with little* air flow.

I've just looked at the Mobil website and they say this about their V Twin oil:

'As you know, a typical air-cooled V-twin's rear cylinder gets a lot hotter than the front cylinder – it's a matter of airflow. When it's hot out and you're stuck in traffic, the oil temperature in your bike climbs rapidly. Above about 250°F, conventional motor oil is going to break down. Mobil 1 V-Twin synthetic oil is good to above 300F'

300°F* = 149°C so really is not capable of the temp I've experienced even though this oil is specifically recommended for hot engines. I couldn't find a temp for the MX4T grade.
What are your thoughts on temp capability please?
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« Reply #9 on: May 13, 2008, 10:13:47 PM »

Georgecls:
Terry, as we have discussed, Group IV and Group V synthetics create less heat and then dissapate that heat at a faster rate than do mineral based oils.* Thus your experienced 150C* (300F) with your current oil in extremely high ambient temperatures may not have occurred with a group IV or group V base stock oil.* I have seen many cases where the use of Mobil group IV or group V synthetics have lowered operational temps as much as 25 degrees F / 14 degrees C.* It may be a moot point.
George Morrison, STLE CLS

terry:
George, I understand whay you are saying about a Group IV oil running at a lower temp than a group III but I am interested in the fact that Mobil only claim that their V Twin oil is good to above 300°F. It doesn't sound very high compared to the max temp of Shell Ultra 4, which you suspect is only a group III.
(Out of interest, I saw 150°C in very slow traffic, 1st & 2nd gear, with an ambient below 20°C last Sept.)
After reading all your advice I feel I may have been conned into believing the Shell was something it may not be and I'm thinking I may try the Mobil MX4T. The only concern I've got now is that at this time of year I actually want heat in the oil and don't want the reduction in temp that the Group IV oil may give. I told you I wasn't happy 2 days ago when the oil temp only reached 74°C and I saw some condensation on sight glass. It looks like I can't have everything I want then; an oil that is thin when ambient is low so will reach bearings better but at operating temp I want an oil temp high enough that I don't get condensation diluting the oil?

Georgecls:
Terry, I would suggest you should not look to the oil to provide your heat for your engine. Some other method of increasing heat would be a more logical solution. You *need* the lubrication a group IV or group V will provide on start-up, cold running; look to some other means to create the heat, whether it is blanking off a portion of the oil cooler, cowling, etc. In aircraft operations with air cooled engines, this is exactly what we do in winter: install winter baffles..
And if you do experience condensation simply change the oil more frequently. The issue with entrained moisture is not so much a lubrication function, as engine oils are designed to hold water in suspension, but one of internal corrosion.
The 300F / 150C your saw in the Mobil discussion was as an example. Mobil 1 MX4T will function well at higher temperatures, but is a function of how long the oil operates at those extreme temperatures.
Regarding the belief that you were running a true synthetic engine oil. You are not the only one Terry. If you polled the people at Ducati Central, each and every one would be of the understanding that the oil is a full synthetic oil. That is what the Product Data Sheet says exactly: "Advance Ultra 4 is a unique, fully synthetic lubricant for ultimate engine protection and performance". But the next sentence is the giveaway: "Founded on Shells XHVI synthetic base fluid technology" The key word is: "XHVI is Shellspeak for Exta High Viscoscity Index Group III base stock oil. As opposed to the average Group III which may not have a natural Viscosity Index as high as the extra high VI base stock. But even in an XHVI refinement, these base stocks do not provide the performance levels of a Group IV or Group V base stock.

George Morrison, STLE CLS

terry:
Thanks again George, and you've convinved me to try the MX4T. The movement of the Shell oil in the sight glass first at 7°C then at 100°C told a lot about the oil. It will be interesting to look at the Mobil at the same temps. If it's no different I'm sending you the bill George -I'll want my money back. laughingdp

Georgecls:
I have Mobil 1 MX4T in mine and at -12C/10F my oil flowed freely in the oil window... :-) I froze my tail off riding to the shop for updates 3 weeks ago, however!
I think you will be very pleased, especially in the feel of the engine, ease of shifting; you will notice a difference after a few days of riding. it takes a bit of time for the MX4T to get to all the nooks and crannies of the engine and transmission..
George Morrison, STLE CLS

dakinebusa:
Indeed George, a very good technical thread.
I still stand by my opinion the Mobil 1 auto oil is more than adequate for any real world motorcycle service and that the clutch issue is not a problem.
I do not get clutch slip at the 165 bhp level in my Hayabusa with a stock clutch.
Similarly, I am aware of a 500 bhp street busa with 20000 miles and no issues at teardown.
Several land speed records have been set by busa's using Mobil 1 car oil.
I do not have any clutch issues with my E900 on Mobil 1.
I would probably run the mc specific oil but I cannot buy it off the shelf here in the sticks.
The one place that I have found just how good synthetics are is in gearboxes.
Red Line MTL gets my vote for highly loaded automotive gearboxes.

What do you think about running synthetic ATF?
I am planning to change the tranny lube in my 4wd using a vacuum machine and am thinking about going synthetic.

Georgecls:
Synthetic ATF is a win/win.* With the constant pressure to decrease automobile weight, our automatic transmissions have been the target for weight loss.* Automatic transmission used to hold huge amounts of ATF which enabled a very important process: cooling..* Current automatic transmissions have half or less the volume ATF and size compared with just a few years ago.* Heat is the #1 cause of demise as we just do not have sufficient cooling volume.* *Mineral based ATF fluid's constant exposure to elevated temperatures results in high rates of oil oxidation.* The by-produdts of oxidation are a whole host of acids which in turn attack clutch facings, yellow metals, and bearing housings.
Back to rule #1 with synthetic Group IV and Group V basestocks: they create less heat and then disappate that heat at a much higher rate than mineral based oils. Also, synthetic ATF is very resistant to oxidation.* Thus Synthetic ATF will run cooler, enable even better clutch interface as the clutch facings are running cooler and damaging acids will not be produced; the result is a much smoother shifting, longer lasting (big time) transmission..*
George Morrison, STLE CLS

CADUCMAN:
I always put full synthetic in my S4R, my local shop put in semi-synthetic during my 6K service. Is this OK?

Georgecls:
Regarding semi-synehtic engine oil vs. your regular full synthetic. There should be no operational problems. However, in oils, as in chains, the weakest link determines the total strength of the chain/oil and with the mineral oil component, we have a weak link. Mineral based oils, as previously discussed, do not have a natural viscosity index, oxidation resistance, film strength and purity of a synthetic base stock. Thus, a synthetic blend contains a component of lower performance capability.

The other issue is that there is no qualification or accepted standard of exactly what constitutes a "synthetic blend". ie a synthetic blend could contain as little as .0001% synthetic base oil (and that could be a group III) and can legally be referred to as a "synthetic blend".
As we have seen, a synthetic based engine oil may not be a "real" synthetic at all; with a synthetic blend, it is anybody's guess as to what its components are.
However, there should be no conflicts of chemistries with the oils. Just performance levels.
George Morrison, STLE CLS

friedduck:
George you're inexhaustible!

I'd heard years ago that heavier viscosities provided greater resistance to shock loads. Now at the time I presumed that to mean that they had a thicker film and that the film would be maintained better under higher loads. Any truth to this? (This is one of those things that I've believed for years without any basis.)

Finally thank you. I dug out the manual to my new-to-me Duc and sure enough: 10w-40. I'll feel a lot better about running a lighter viscosity having read this.

Jeff
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« Reply #10 on: May 13, 2008, 10:14:25 PM »

Georgecls:
Regarding higher viscosity oils and shock loading. Yes, this is correct and there *is* an engine application where a higher viscosity engine oil is applicable. In a gasoline engine when ignition occurs, it is a burn process. In a diesel engine, the combustion process is just that; a very violent "explosion" vs. the burn process of a gasoline powered engine. Thus diesel engines require a higher viscosity engine oil which will provide "cushioning" for the connecting rod and main bearings. This is why diesel engines use a XXW-40 viscosity engine oil. The use of multi-viscosity engine oils which allowed the application of higher viscosities in engine operating temperatures was one of the single most important advancements in enabling the extension of diesel engine life.
George Morrison, STLE CLS

Georgecls:
Regarding the temperature range of Neo magnets for use on our oil filters. Some of the higher quality Neo has a significantly higher temperature operating range, so keep an eye open for those magnets. As with engine oils, there are Neo's and then there are Neo's.
The magnetic field will reduce with elevated temps but the field is always there to some degree. Additionally, the metal surface of the oil filter can where the Neo is attached to will become magnetized by the Neo creating an excellent force field area. Once particles begin to collect in the area, they too become magnetized, enlarging the field area. With elevated temps the "reach" of the magnet decreases but does not turn off like a light switch. And as the oil is cooled, the magnet force field returns back to original levels. I have examined hundreds of oil filters that had Neo on their surfaces and in every case there is ferrous residue ranging from a small amount of paste to paste/chunks/clunks. i.e. there is always "something" there and that "something" is iron and steel. Any abrasives, especially ferrous, we can capture from the system is a win/win for our engine and transmission.
George Morrison, STLE CLS

620mblack:
Wow, it took me an hour or so to read up to this point, Its a great thread waytogo

My questions...

I have several different oils laying around in my garage, and was wondering a couple things....what does 4t mean? Its on a bottle of motorex 15w/50 semi synthetic, and on a bottle of Castrol Actevo
sae 10w-40

the motorex says its formulated for oil bath clutches and has --- jaso ma, api sg, acea a3-98 on it

The castrol says synthetic-based, and has--- api sg and jaso ma on it

I assume that both are semi synthetic.... but does the 4t mean the "grade"

I change oil and filters every 2000 miles, due to the fact I regulary see temps of 250-290 f.

Also on condasation in the oil, Ive been running my bike every 1-2 weeks for at least 20 mins @ 210+f
and I still see white in the sight glass, is that a major problem?

Georgecls:
Regarding the cloudiness you see after your rides. It is somewhat surprising in that generally 10 to 15 minutes of 180+ F riding should well release any entrained moisture. As previously discussed, the major concern is corrosion. Engine oils are formulated to be able to contain levels of moisture without creating any lubrication issues. Short change faux oil changes (no filter, just the oil) is an easy, 3 quart excellent rust preventive.

Regarding the 4T designation. I do not have an answer..... For years I surmised it was the European manufacturer simple designation for 2 (2T) cycle or 4 (4T) cycle motorcycle engine/transmission designation. I will do some research and get back on this.
George Morrison, STLE CLS

620mblack:
Now where does the moisture go? I assumed it stayed in the case as water vapor intill the motor cools down and the condensed.... or is it vented out the oil breather? I guess ill have to change the oil this weekend Tongue

Georgecls:
If we get the oil to the 180F+ level, the entrained moisture is released and vents through the crankcase breather. If we do not reach the 180F+ level for enough duration, then the moisture is not released and is contained in loose emulsion. When coolinig, the water already in the oil pulls even more into the oil as water is incredibly reactive. If not released from the engine oil, simply change the oil. Fresh oil will be much better able to deal with any condensation that does take place with its full charge of additives and inherint higher stability. New oil does wonders, especially for corrosion prevention.
George Morrison, STLE CLS

imola23:
Quote from: metalman
*
Then also my mid 70's V-twin Duc has all roller bearings would you go 10-40 with that as well?

I am curious about this too.* The owners manual calls for straight grade 50 weight.* This is a mid-70's Duc with a roller bearing crank.* Others say that a modern multi-grade would be better than even a modern straight 50w.

Georgecls:
A multi-grade 50 weight oil, especially a group IV or Group V synthetic, will certainly provide a much higher level of lubrication, especially on startup. As per our previous discussions, a 15W-50 full synthetic such as Mobil 1 V-Twin is essentially a 50W oil that just happens to flow to 40F below zero... Thus this type of oil is capable of immediate flow, pumpability, and optimal lubrication immediately, irrespective of ambient temperatures. Additionally the Group IV or Group V synthetic will provide higher viscosity, superior lubrication at elevated operating temperatures.
George Morrison, STLE CLS

imola23:
Thanks George. This begs another question: Under what circumstances would a straight 50 weight oil be recommended?

Georgecls:
Courtesy modern day chemistry, there are no engine applications in which a true straight grade 50W mineral based oil would be recommended. A 50W full synthetic Group IV/V oil is a total operational win/win and multi-viscosity mineral based XXW-50 weights would provide far superior performance characteristics vs a mineral based straight grade 50W. There are simply no applications I am familiar with that a straight 50W mineral based oil would be recommended.
George Morrison, STLE CLS
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« Reply #11 on: May 13, 2008, 10:14:41 PM »

dan900sie:
A little more info to add to the mix.

http://www.sportrider.com/tech/146_0308_oil/

http://www.sportrider.com/tech/146_0310_oil/

22080:
Simple question though probably simple to answer.

I was speaking to an oil rep from a competing company, and, yes, they sell motorcycle oil. This gentleman told me Mobile 1 15w-50 extended performanc actually has notably more phosphorous than the old 15W-50 and does not contain any friction modifyers that wiuld make your wet clutch likely to slip. Could you please confirm this?

Georgecls:
Yes, it is correct that Mobil 1 15W-50 Extended Performance does not contain lubricity enhancements for fuel mileage maximization.* However, as with our previous discussions, the 15W-50 viscosity is not optimal for most Ducati engines, creating unwanted heat and horsepower loss.*
Compared to other available 15W-50 oils, the Mobil 1 EP 15W-50 is an exceptional oil for those engines requiring a 50W oil.* *Both the Mobil 1 MX4T 10W-40 and Mobil 1 V-Twin 20W-50 contain even higher levels of anti-wear and detergency addization than the Extended Performance, along with motorcycle specific base stock (higher performance).
George Morrison, STLE CLS

craigg:
George,

I've seen that you prefer MX4T's viscosity versus the V-Twin forumula for the L-Twin. What's your opinion with the fact that the oil shears in a short period of time [i.e. for an OI of 875miles in my ZZR250 M1 15W-50 sheared from a low 50wt to a mid 40wt, from 18cSt to 14.7cSt @ 100ºC] ?

With all of the UOAs on BITOG It seems to me that the 40wt would shear down to a 30wt in no time.

Georgecls:
As we have been discussing at length, the 10W-40, Mobil 1 MX4T is the recommended viscosity for Ducati by Ducati.* A 50W will rob horsepower, create heat.* You indicate that your 15W-50 Mobil 1 'sheared' to a 40W in relatively low mileage.* I have reviewed Mobil 1 15W50 engine oil analysis results after a 500 mile NASCAR race (they don't use 15W-50 anymore, changed to 0W-30 two years ago) indicating a right on the money 50W viscosity, no shear whatsoever.* Ducati engines can be fuel diluters, big time.* *I would strongly suggest that your 40W viscosity was due to fuel dilution vs. shear...* Some labs do not take the time to run fuel dilutions, just the viscosities.*
I have reviewed many Ducati oil analysis with viscosities lower than what went in the engine and in group IV and Group V full synthetic oils, it was fuel dilution every time..* I have reviewed many, many Mobil 1 MX4T 10W-40 Ducati engine oil analysis and in every case, right on viscosity; except those cases where significant fuel dilution was present.
So, yes, I strongly recommend Mobil 1 MX4T or other Group IV or Group V synthetic engine oil.* Shear is not an issue from my experience.* *Quite the contrary... Mobil 1 MX4T and Mobil 1 V-Twin are very shear stable....*
George Morrison, STLE CLS

terry:
George, we previously discussed the Shell Ultra 4 that I thought was fully synthetic and you suggested that it was really a group III oil which can be legally described as fully synthetic but really isn't.
I've said I'm considering taking your advice to change to MX4T but what convinces you that this is definitely a group IV oil when you have said there is no definitive list?
You have just recommended using a group IV or V but if you can't tell us what group each oil belongs to then how can we choose one?

dan900sie:
Here is a link http://motorcycleinfo.calsci.com/Oils1.html with more, easier to understand (for me at least) info, and some specific brands mentioned.
(ed: snipped from full post.)

Georgecls:
Dan, thank you so much for posting that excellent link.* Superbly written and loaded with good information.* And in Dan's reference link, Terry, the few full, real Group IV and Group V oils were delineated. There are not many.....* One of the immediate clues of the base stock used is pour point.* As we comparatively examined the pour points of Mobil 1 MX4T 10W-40 vs. Shell Ultra 10W-40, it was most evident that the Shell was not a group IV or Group V.* And then our good friend from Greece noted in a most scientific way that when he swayed his Ducati from side to side, the oil on the window moved reeeaall slow...* Which is what initiated our whole Shell discussion on the subject "there are synthetics and then there are *real* synthetics".
Lubrication is not a simple subject, especially when the water (oil) has been clouded with the quasi synthetic group III now legally labeled "synthetic".
I really do not want to get to the point of "recommending" a product.* I will share information of products I know, such as Mobil 1 MX4T in that I have knowledge of its formulation, base stocks, and formulator along with extensive oil analysis database.* My purpose is to share in depth technical information so you can be a more informed buyer, user,* enabling you to better decide which lubricants will provide optimal performance for your bike's engine and gearbox in your environment and application.
George Morrison, STLE CLS

terry:
George, the reason I asked why you are convinced that MX4T is a 'real' synthetic as opposed to the Shell that I've been using is that locally I haven't found MX4T for sale so I wanted to know the technical information to look for which would identify which group an oil belongs to.
I hope it didn't look like I was suggesting MX4T wasn't a group IV. The fact that you use MX4T in your bike is a good enough recommendation for me anyway.
Thanks once again George.

desmo_drum:
So I looked at the amsoil website. It has a pour point of -50F, a vicosity index of 152, flash point of 453. This looks like a group V or IV oil? Ths specs are listed at the bottom of this page.

http://www.amsoil.com/StoreFront/mcf.aspx

BTW, this has been a fantastically educational thread! waytogo
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« Reply #12 on: May 13, 2008, 10:14:59 PM »

terry:
I'm particularly grateful for George for explaining that my Shell Ultra is not 'real' synthetic and I feel I've been conned. It looks like Ducati may recommend Shell because they sponsor the race team!

Georgecls:
Terry, you are right on target; when a lubricant manufacturer walks into a race team with a rather large check, it many times (let's say always) follows that the motorcycle or automobile manufacturer will follow suit and recommend the company's lubricants. The problem in this case is this situation with Group III oils and an appearance of mis-information with respect to use of the word "synthetic" and corresponding words such as "Ultra"; as this is not only a "synthetic oil" it is an "Ultra synthetic"
super duper, worth the high cost, you're gonna love it because we know it is best. When in fact you (and everyone on this site) very likely now know more about Shell Ultra and Group II+, Group III oils than the good folks at Ducati. I would venture to say there will be some raised eyebrows at Ducati at some point when they find out the oil is not what they thought it was.
George Morrison, STLE CLS

sblea:
George,

First let me say that this is going to gone down as one of the greatest threads ever on internet!

I would like your expert opinion on the synthetic Maxima oils... During my breaking in process of my duc 998, I used Maximu Premium (Petroleum Blend) 10w40...*

http://www.maximausa.com/products/4stroke/maxum4premium.asp


After 3000 miles, I did not find a 10w40 Maxima4 Synthetic Extra (recommended by the manual), so I purchased the next best thing, the 15w50 Maxima4 Synthetic Extra.* I have already purchased another 3.78L for my upcoming 6K oil change, so my question is based on the specs below, is the synthetic extra a true synthetic?** * If so, how does the 10w40 Maxima4 Synthetic Extra* stack up againts the Mobil 1?* I guess I should switch to 10w40 after my 9K oil change? Do I still use the Synthetic Extra ?

http://www.maximausa.com/products/4stroke/maxum4synthextra.asp

Thanks in advance.

Georgecls:
First, may I thank you for the kind words.... The excellence of this thread is the result of everyone who has inputed and participated; extraordinary people reside on this site.
The oil indicates that it is ester based and thus a very high level performing engine oil. The only drawback of an ester based engine oil is its natural affinity for moisture, which can lead to corrosion. If you live in a cold climate where you will not be riding you bike foran extended period, you should consider changing the oil prior to spring. Ester based oils love water.
The oil has the potential to be equal to or superior to Mobil 1 Mx4T in every respect except the corrosion issue.
George Morrison, STLE CLS

<Several posts referencing neo magnet purchases cut>

Georgecls:
You are most welcome, thank you.* You know the site is getting esoteric when the discussion raises to the level of enhancing oil filter performance!* Such a simple, relatively inexpensive device yet Neo's filtration capabilities are superb.* Especially in our high ferrous wear metal producing gearboxes.* When I previously mentioned filtering to the angstrom level, this also provides significant benefits to the engine oil.* Ultra fine metal particles are oxidation catalysts and by removing/minimizing these ultra fine particles we can significantly increase engine oils properties.* Ferrous metals, whether it be a gear face or free floating are all fighting for the same anti-wear additives; minimize the free floating ferrous particles and the additive stays in suspension to deposit on gear surfaces, where it is needed instead of depleting.* Oil oxidation rates can be significantly reduced.* Oxidation by-products are many, including acids.* Acids in engine oil accelerate wear rates, especially for yellow metals.* Minimize oxidation, minimize acid by-products, oil performance levels are then maintained at a much higher level for a longer period.* All the result of that little magnet on the oil filter...
George Morrison, STLE CLS

dakinebusa:
Here is a new oil test to throw some dataq on the fire...
http://www.amsoil.com/lit/g2156.pdf

Georgecls:
As further discussion for the relevance of the use of Neodymium magnets as an iron/steel filter mechanism, my recent Ducati 1000DS engine oil analysis reflected the following.
Iron, 18 ppm, chrome 1, lead 1, copper 4, tin 0, aluminum 4, nickel 1, sililcon (dirt) 6. As can be seen, the highest single wear metal component was iron/steel, related to our sharing sumps with the transmission. The elevated iron significantly accerates all of the other components wear rates, especially yellow metal. Anything we can do to reduce the level of iron/steel in the engine oil will have a direct relationship on the engine, gearbox and especially bearing wear rates and overall longevity. And Neo will address this component very, very well. Along with increasing the performance of the engine/gear oil.
George Morrison, STLE CLS

hiero:
Hey George, again thanks for keeping up with us here, one of my previous questions got lost in the mix way back a couple of pages, but I was just wondering if there was a 'shelf life' with new oil? specifically full synthetics (PAOs, as that's what I use), since I tend to buy in bulk and hold on to the stock until I need it... any issues with doing this? Huh?

Georgecls:
I apologize, I obviously missed your shelf life question.. 3 years is a conservative safe life for sealed Group IV or Group V stored in reasonably stable temperatures (to minimize condensation). Group III synthetics (?) are variable in their makeup, base stocks, but should be safe for comparable periods.
George Morrison, STLE CLS

Ash:
Quote from: desmo_drum
So I looked at the amsoil website. It has a pour point of -50F, a vicosity index of 152, flash point of 453. This looks like a group V or IV oil? Ths specs are listed at the bottom of this page.

http://www.amsoil.com/StoreFront/mcf.aspx

BTW, this has been a fantastically educational thread!* waytogo

First of all, thanks George for an amazing thread and everyone for the participation.

SEcond, I too would love to know if the amsoil stuff is G IV or V. I use the 20w-50 right now and from this thread, have decided to switch to 10w-40. I'm pretty happy (read: no problems) with amsoil, but I'm curious about the MX4T as well. Though, amsoil's information page linked above suggests the MX4T has inferior film strength at elevated temp. Comments?

thanks!
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« Reply #13 on: May 13, 2008, 10:15:15 PM »

Georgecls:
Quote from: Ash
First of all, thanks George for an amazing thread and everyone for the participation.

SEcond, I too would love to know if the amsoil stuff is G IV or V.* I use the 20w-50 right now and from this thread, have decided to switch to 10w-40.* I'm pretty happy (read: no problems) with amsoil, but I'm curious about the MX4T as well.* Though, amsoil's information page linked above suggests the MX4T has inferior film strength at elevated temp.* Comments?

thanks!

Yes, in answer to your question, the specifications indicate that the Amsoil is a group IV/V base stock oil. Regarding the Amsoil comparisons, it is difficult for me to comment on as I very much want to keep my position in the forum as neutral as possible. All of the top rated motorcycle specific oils in their comparisons are superb engine/transmission lubricants. One can split hairs on a particular laboratory test result but all of these oils are going to provide a level of performance and protection advantage that is huge compared with Group III and non-motorcycle specific engine oils.
A company may publish a particular segment of laboratory tests that skew results towards one's products. An example may be stating Zinc additive treat levels, with an obvioius high treat level, indicating that as an advantage. However, another company may use other anti-wear additives which provide additional anti wear and oxidation benefits that zinc alone cannot provide. The comparison shows brand X to be deficient to brand A in Zinc content; however, the overall anti-wear additization package of Brand X is at a much higher level than brand A, thus providing significant performance benefits. If one graphs Zinc content alone, brand A is indeed the winner but the result is meaningless as it relates to overall engine oil extreme pressure performance.
So, back to point one, all of those Group IV and V motorcycle specific oils are superb products... One cannot go wrong with any of the choices.

George Morrison, STLE CLS

Ash:
to your point about zinc levels, amsoil's white paper completely concurred with your statement. Not sure if you read it all the way through but it seems like a pretty impartial and scientifically appropriate document.

thanks!

Georgecls:
Yes, Amsoil's white paper did concur in the fine print that Zinc alone is not an indicator of performance; however, the half page graphs showed nothing but Zinc levels so a person reading the notation "Zinc quantiy content alone does not indicate its performance" would ask "why publish the graph in the first place!?" Which is exactly my point..
The graph shows Brand A with higher levels of Zinc than all other oils.. Which would lead a person who had *not* read the complete text to come away with a "obviously Brand A is better" take... For me, the "white paper" becomes a little gray with this methodology..... Why publish a graph that has little or no meaning?? There are EP additives which can far surpass the performance of Zinc alone; some of the other oils indicated on the chart contain these additives. These "other additives" can cost much more than Zinc and will provide synergistic results when combined with a certain level of zinc.
Thus my issues with these "white papers" and my previous comments about "thin slicing" tests, publishing data and graphs which are mis-leading, especially to a person who may not read the complete study, the fine print, or just likes graphs...
George Morrison, STLE CLS

Ash:
I do see your point.

Marketing within tech papers which you can't call anyone out on because it's so subtle...

Then again, Amsoil's oil didn't have the highest zinc levels, so it's not even very good bad marketing laughingdp

Georgecls:
It is reeeallly difficult to correlate laboratory test performance to real world. Yes, lab testing does perform a very important function in developing products but I cannot tell you the number of times, the layers/inches of scar tissue I have from developing the world greatest lubricant only to have it fail miserably in field applications. I have received plaques honoring some of my stupendous failures, yet each performed superbly in the lab! I speak from experience....
George Morrison, STLE CLS

<Several newbie posts related to oil change intervals cut.>

Georgecls:
Ducpainter is right on target. Engine oil lubricant should be changed at a mileage or annually. As he indicated, acids, moisture, wear metals and combusiton by-products accumulate in the oil and simply need to be drained, at least annually. Preferably at the end of the riding season so that a fresh charge of oil is in the crankcase/transmission. The acids and other harmful deposits are then removed for winter storage. Acids in the used oil can quietly work away all winter if left in the engine.
George Morrison, STLE CLS

vij:
I am sure this is way of topics but I have to ask.

On top of my 916 monster I have a old ducati bevel.
I dont know if you guys know about this engines but the main problem is the bigend bearing. It is a roller bearing and it is the main problem on this engines. They are famous for there Bigend problems.

The thing is that every expert recommens straight 50 mineral oil and that is because of the big end problems. It is also basicly splash lubricated.

It obviosly works as an engine runned on straight 50 lasts longer.

What does a lube expert think about this?
I am just making a full rebuild due to bigend failure.

I forgot to tell. The filtering sysytem on this engines sucks also.

What oil would some one that knows oil recommend. I would love to fill with syntetic. Any reason that I should/should not do that?

Happy for advices.

Jocke........

Georgecls:
Regarding a "straight" 50W for use in older Ducati engines with bottom end issues. As we have discussed on this site, a full Group IV/V synthetic base stock engine oil IS a straight grade 50W oil. A 50W synthetic base stock will just happen to meet the 15W or 20W specifications but is essentially a full, for real, 50W oil very much the same as a mineral based 50W, except that our fully synthetic base stock will pour to 50 below zero, where the mineral based 50W is approaching a solid at 0 degrees F. Additionally, at 230F, our 50W synthetic is a rock solid 50W where the mineral based 50W is beginning to thin, as all mineral based oils do when exposed to elevated operating temperature. Thus our synthetic XXW-50 full synthetic oil is going to provide a "thicker" oil at engine operating temperatures than the supposed thick 50W mineral based oil.
From a lube engineer's perspective, using a high quality group IV/V full synthetic XXW-50 will provide nothing but advantages in operation, life, for any engine designed for a 50W, irrespective of bearings, especially for a "weak" situation. There are simply no lubrication advantages in a mineral based oil vs. a full group IV/V synthetic. None........
As long as we provide the viscosity required by the manufacture in its initial design phase, a full synthetic is going to provide superior lujbrication in every respect. The film strength of a full synthetic alone, vs. a mineral based oil is a win/win. Then add cold weather flow, high temperature stability, etc.. You are correct in your assumptions...
George Morrison, STLE CLS

steveb999:
I'm considering using a full synthetic 5-40 oil in an old bevel drive Ducati instead of the straight SAE40 (always a quality modern oil, never the "Classic" non detergent stuff though) it's always been running on.

After reading through the 8 pages of the Motor Oil thread, I gather that synthetic oil is so stable in viscosity, it needs hardly any VI additive to meet the spec for the 5-40 grade, which is a Good Thing in view of the large number of bevel gears & roller bearings in the engine. In addition this should give me much better lubrication on start-up and better protection when standing still.

However, I'm wondering whether the high detergent content found in most of these oils will cause any problems? Someone was talking about the old Triumph triples claiming that it's a Bad Idea to switch to synthetic without stripping & cleaning the whole engine, since the dislodged sludge would choke the paper oil filter very quickly.

Ducati's idea of oil filtration on these engines is a sludge trap in the crank and a screen mesh filter on the oil pump intake. This, together with the expense of rebuilding the unit, is the reason why I have always been changing oil at around 1000 - 1500km.

If I go to a synthetic, it will probably be one of the cheaper types - 4l of a high profile name such as Shell or Castrol (Mobile is not available here in Denmark) currently costs the equivalent of $85 or so.....

What's your view on the question? I know that you cannot give a definite recommendation for this bike, but I would be very interested to hear your views on the detergent question.

Here's a spec sheet of the most promising oil from a Dutch company called Kroon Oils:

Emperol 5W-40 is a modern universal synthetic fuel economy motor oil formulation, produced with high quality synthetic base oils and a well balanced choice of advanced additives to obtain the following properties:

* Lower fuel consumption (up to 3%)
* High and very stable Viscosity Index
* Fast cold start
* Safe lubrication film even at very high temperatures
* Very good detergency and dispersion
* Very strong protection against wear, corrosion and foaming


Typicals
Density 15 °C, kg/l 0,852
Viscosity -30 °C, mPa.s 6110
Viscosity 40 °C, mm²/s 87,40
Viscosity 100 °C, mm²/s 14,40
Viscosity Index 172
Flash Point COC, °C 223
Total Base Number, mgKOH/g 10,7
Sulphate Ash, % 1,13

Productspecification
API SL/CF
ACEA A3, B3, B4
VW 502.00/505.00
MB 229.3, Porsche, BMW-98
Opel GM-LL-B-25 (pending)

Do you have any comments on this spec list?

Thanks very much,
Steve in Denmark, where it's still too cold to ride either the Trident or the Ducati.

Georgecls:
Steve in Denmark.
As a discussion poinit, do you have any full synthetic diesel rated engine oils available? They generally come in the 5W or 15W-40 viscosity rating and perform very well in older engines and do not contain energy saving additization. As a group they are high in detergent so an increase of oil drains would be anticipated. But the bottom line would be a positive one for you and your engine if you have any such readily available.
Many older Ducati are running Mobil Delvac 1 5W-40 and other full synthetic diesel engine oils with great success.
George Morrison, STLE CLS
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« Reply #14 on: May 13, 2008, 10:15:30 PM »

IowaS4r:
I have not read this whole post, so please excuse me if I bring up a dead issue (9 pages of postings) to summarize, George you say a diesel motor designed synthetic oil is good to use in my water cooled, dry cluth 996 engine? I've read that you want to keep the multi vis close to avoid breaking the VI chains, which in that case a 10w - 30 would be good? I always thought a high vis like a 20-50 was the way to go, but the viscosity does not have to do with lubrication, does it?

If we do have a dry clutch, would it be better to use the low friction oil then? I used Mobil 1 in my 800 SS and the clutch did slip, I would not use it again in a wet clutch environment.

Georgecls:
With a full synthetic, we are not concened about the W rating as much as the operational viscosity. Most of our Ducati are optimized for a 40W operational viscosity. So, with a full synthetic there is no issue on cold weather rating (the XXW rating) as most full, real Group IV or V 40W synthetics flow to 60F below zero. And yes, Mobil 1 automotive contains friction enhancement and should not be used in a wet clutch application. Mobil 1 motorcycle specific synthetic oils do NOT contain friction enhancement and are optimized for motorcycle use.
So, no, a 10W-30 was never mentioned in our previous pages of discussion and should not be used in our Ducati engines/transmissions.
George Morrison, STLE CLS

JJGeo:
Wow...great thread and thanks for the info George!* waytogo* Next oil I buy will be a full synthetic (Group IV/V) 40W for sure!

Anyway...the link below is to an article published in MCN comparing if the motorcycle specific oils are better than car oils and therefore worth the money.* They mainly focus on the resistance to shear.* It agrees that synthetic is best.* But the test results seem to show that Mobil 1 and Castrol Syntec car oils performed the best.* Have you seen this study George and what's your opinion?* Is it too simplified?

http://www.ducatimeccanica.com/oil.html

Georgecls:
Yes, I have read the MCN oil test and they did a yeoman job. But, yes, laboratory testing is one aspect but it is just impossible to duplicate real world. Lab tests are used to develop a baseline oil then it is off to the real engine/transmission for the rest of the formulation process. Irrespective, MCN's work was superbly done and written. Experientially I can share that Mobil 1 MX4T uses a significantly higher quality base stock than the automotive formulation yet there are no lab tests that will reflect the real world advantage of the difference, as one example... There are more..
George Morrison, STLE CLS

ducvet:
George
thanks for the great thread on oil . it has been the best by far waytogo

one question for you is about oil shelf life. does oil have a shelf life? i have seen oils that leave sediment in the bottle after emptying (from new un-opened).

also my ducati reccomended agip stint 2000 or agip 4t sint racing, the 4t is only in a 20/50.
not trying to beat a dead horse here. but what was the reasoning that 50weight synthetic was not as good as a 40weight?
thanks again

Georgecls:
Oil does have a shelf life but if kept in normal temperatures, out of sunlight, 2 to 3 years is generally accepted. The settle out that you see IS a common current problem with Group II mineral based oils. Group II is quite stable as a base stock and does not hold additives in suspension as well as good 'ol Group 1 base stock oils. No big deal, just shake the bottle well and pour... No operational issues.

The 50W is no BIG issue, it just robs some horsepower, creates extra heat, etc. vs. a 40W. Operationally works just fine except for the aforementioned. It does not to anything "better" than a comparable group IV/V synthetic based engine oil and does some things not quite as well..
Ideally we would like "optimum" viscosity but if not available, do next best. Not "perfect" but no problems, no issues......
George Morrison, STLE CLS

alex:
Quote from: Georgecls
yes, Mobil 1 automotive contains friction enhancement and should not be used in a wet clutch application.* Mobil 1 motorcycle specific synthetic oils do NOT contain friction enhancement and are optimized for motorcycle use.*

Does that statement mean that Mobil 1 auto would be better than the moto version if it's for a dry clutch application?

Georgecls:
Re: Mobil 1 auto vs. Motorcycle MX4T for dry clutch Ducati, is auto better? In a word, No.. The original chief chemist for Mobil had 17 motorcycles, 5 of them Ducati and was given carte blanche on formulation. Thus Mobil 1 MX4T not only has an optimized additive package for motorcycle engines but also a much higher quality base stock than regular automotive Mobil 1. It is like when one builds a house, the foundation is the most important component; same with base stocks. Which comes to play in our requirement as gear oil lubricant with our common sump. Every component of Mobil 1 MX4T is totally optimized for high performance air and liquid cooled motorcycle application. (along with other Group IV/V motorcycle specific engine oils)
George Morrison, STLE CLS

moddedtunnel:
Quote from: Georgecls
First, may I thank you for the kind words....* The excellence of this thread is the result of everyone who has inputed and participated; extraordinary people reside on this site.
The oil indicates that it is ester based and thus a very high level performing engine oil.* The only drawback of an ester based engine oil is its natural affinity for moisture, which can lead to corrosion.* If you live in a cold climate where you will not be riding you bike foran extended period, you should consider changing the oil prior to spring.* Ester based oils love water.* *
The oil has the potential to be equal to or superior to Mobil 1 Mx4T in every respect except the corrosion issue.*
George Morrison, STLE CLS

The Maxima Maxum 4 Extra is a PAO /Ester based formula of around 70/30 . Just enough ester to offset the seal shrinkage that would happen with PAO only and to aid with the miscability of the additive pack which is much like the Mobil bike oil .* The Maxima Ultra is made the other way . Around 60% Ester/40% PAO

I do not* know of any current , primary ester based engine oils that use a refrigerant type ester . It's the polyol esters used in closed refrigerant systems that have hygroscopic tendancies and not TMP , PE types used in modern engine oils .

To add and without quoting other posts , did anyone notice in Amsoils tests both the Maxima Maxum 4 and Maxum Ultra did not get tested by Amsoil ? Funny really .

Here's what the Maxima Maxum 4 synthetic additive pack looks like . Very high levels of anti-wear and is the cream of the crop of basic primary PAO based formulas, in my opinion .  Antimony is such a great additive that reduces piston ring wear and gear box wear . It's only available in 3-4 current formulas/brands that I know of .



Antinomy 1020
Magnesium 640
Calcium 700
Sodium* 248
Phosphorus 3390
Zinc 2530

Some of these newer 10w-40 synthetics are made on the very low side of the 40wt scale at operating temp . Mobil 10w-40 is around 13.6 centistrokes . As good of an oil as it is I believe it would suffer viscosity shear and be a 30wt in short time when factoring in both shear and some fuel dillution .

Myself , I use a 15w-50 made on the light side @ 15.5 centistrokes .

9.3-12.49 centistrokes denote the 30wt scale
12.50 - 16 something is the 40 wts

Just remember folks that rule of thumb is to use a light viscosity oil for light load hi-rpm road racing racing without alot of turns and a bit heavier for extreme engine load leaving / grunting out of the many apex's time after time at lower rpm .

Shell uses 40wts and thinner for the long track F1 cars , the equivilant of a 15w-50 for the shorter courses .

Now where were we , I've forgot* Smiley

moddedtunnel:
Oh yes , now I recall* Smiley

For quite sometime there has been some rumors about friction modified oils and wet clutches floating around the internet .

All oils are friction modified to an extent , some more than others . Mobil 4T is friction modded by used of zinc . It also uses boron which is well known as a secondary friction modifer but most importantly is that many of these JASO MA bike specific oils now use oil soluable moly " MoDTC " .

Rumors abound of how this type moly will make a wet clutch slip . I have never seen such in modern bike engines with sound clutch systems . If it were a problem , I highly doubt the new formula Mobil bike oil would be using it in the formula* , don't you ?

Motul E-Tech 100 has used around 70 parts per million of this MoDTC for a few years now . Thats a JASO MA oil . The new Mobil formula , latest Amsoil and at least one of the Silkolenes use it as verified through analysis .

I believe they are using it for the* anti-oxident capabilities more so than a friction modifier .

There are several other friction modifiers that cannot be seen through elemental analysis but thats another topic .

This is a Ducati forum , they use dry clutches so I want all the friction modifiers and extreme pressure additives I can get . The Mobil Extended Performance 15w-50 is not in paricular a poor choice for most bike engines , especially since it generally can be bought for half the price of some other oils . Is that the oil i use ? No but I get better pricing on my oils than some can get .

Speaking of , go to onoffroad.com and gander at the ultra sweet pricing of the Maxima oils . Not bad at all I'd say .
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