695 valve adjust, MBP collets, and timing belt DIY notes & observations

[Speeddog]

You're absolutely correct.  The only way to screw it up would be to remove the crank pulley and put it back wrong, which I'm not sure is possible since it's keyed.  The unlabled gear at the end of the crankshaft in the first diagram is the smaller timing gear labled #10 in the second drawing which meshes with it's mate at a 2:1 ratio.  The larger gear is connected to the shaft which drives the pulley.
-------snip-------------

Actually, that unlabeled gear in the first pic is the primary gear that drives the gear behind the clutch.

[Dirt Monster]

  I'll just shut up now... I'm in way over my head. 

I have a tech inquiry into DNA via their website regarding the belt tension specs.  Ducati Soho is closed on mondays, so I figured I'd see what info if any could be had from the mother ship.

[BK_856er]

I'll just shut up now... I'm in way over my head. 

I have a tech inquiry into DNA via their website regarding the belt tension specs.  Ducati Soho is closed on mondays, so I figured I'd see what info if any could be had from the mother ship.

I'm really curious to find out if the belt tension spec has been updated for the M695.  I set my tension with a combination of the allen key method and the Audacity frequency method and ultimately compromised at about 125Hz.  Considering how loose mine were when I got to them, it was close enough for me.  FYI, my valve guides were shot at 6k miles, but there were no obvious symptoms.

BK

[Dirt Monster]

I still have't heard from my tech inquiry to DNA, but Ducati Soho came through and I got the straight dope from them: they now tension both vert & horizontal timing belts to 110Hz for the M695.  That is correct, both the same.  He said that was the official word from a service bulletin and confirmed that it was out of concern that the tighter specs overly stressed the camshaft bearings.

I'll update my first post when I get home from work.

[Howie]

I still have't heard from my tech inquiry to DNA, but Ducati Soho came through and I got the straight dope from them: they now tension both vert & horizontal timing belts to 110Hz for the M695.  That is correct, both the same.  He said that was the official word from a service bulletin and confirmed that it was out of concern that the tighter specs overly stressed the camshaft bearings.

I'll update my first post when I get home from work.

On my 750 the 5mm allen key trick gives you about 110 HZ.  If you could, try the allen key method and see what you get.

[BK_856er]

I still have't heard from my tech inquiry to DNA, but Ducati Soho came through and I got the straight dope from them: they now tension both vert & horizontal timing belts to 110Hz for the M695.  That is correct, both the same.  He said that was the official word from a service bulletin and confirmed that it was out of concern that the tighter specs overly stressed the camshaft bearings.

I'll update my first post when I get home from work.

Valuable info - thanks!   

BK

[Dirt Monster]

Update:

I've retensioned the belts and took it out for a nice long ride.   [moto] Everything is running great.  Regarding the 5mm allen test  vs. 110hz audio standard:  Tensioning the belts to 110hz will perfectly allow a 5mm allen to consistently pass between the roller and the belt.  However, tensioning the belts to allow a 5mm allen to pass between the roller and the belt, in my hands, yields a frequency anywhere from 70hz to 125hz.  My conclusion:  the 5mm allen-pass test is probably highly consistent in well-practiced experienced hands, and would be close enough in my hands if the audio equipment wasn't available.  However, as a first choice, and as soon as possible after doing it by feel / allen-test, I would fine-tune (literally) and confirm using the audio test.  It's not hard, and doesn't take much longer.

[BK_856er]

Update:

I've retensioned the belts and took it out for a nice long ride.   [moto] Everything is running great.  Regarding the 5mm allen test  vs. 110hz audio standard:  Tensioning the belts to 110hz will perfectly allow a 5mm allen to consistently pass between the roller and the belt.  However, tensioning the belts to allow a 5mm allen to pass between the roller and the belt, in my hands, yields a frequency anywhere from 70hz to 125hz.  My conclusion:  the 5mm allen-pass test is probably highly consistent in well-practiced experienced hands, and would be close enough in my hands if the audio equipment wasn't available.  However, as a first choice, and as soon as possible after doing it by feel / allen-test, I would fine-tune (literally) and confirm using the audio test.  It's not hard, and doesn't take much longer.

My experience was very similar:  http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=11395.msg196175#msg196175

Chris' belt change video was helpful in terms of watching an experienced hand use the allen key method.

Thanks for the followup.  This thread is a valuable resource.

BK

[ZyMe]

The reasoning for not rotating the engine backwards is not that anything bad will happen, but rather since the layshaft is gear driven the play in the gears will allow the crank to reach the desired point before the timing marks on the shaft/align.

If you're doing it to make adjustments, they might not be as accurate as if the crank were turned in normal direction.

Question...If you are at TDCC of the horizontal cylinder then by rotating the engine crank tool 450 deg CCW, the vertical cylinder would be at TDCC?

[Dirt Monster]

Question...If you are at TDCC of the horizontal cylinder then by rotating the engine crank tool 450 deg CCW, the vertical cylinder would be at TDCC?

Rotating ccw from horizontal cyl TDCC, you would achieve vertical cyl TDCC in 270deg, and again each two rotations, ie: at 270 deg, then at 990 deg (270+(360X2)), then at 1710 deg (270 + (360X4)), etc.
Not sure where your 450 deg comes from. 

[ZyMe]

Rotating ccw from horizontal cyl TDCC, you would achieve vertical cyl TDCC in 270deg, and again each two rotations, ie: at 270 deg, then at 990 deg (270+(360X2)), then at 1710 deg (270 + (360X4)), etc.
Not sure where your 450 deg comes from. 

Great write-up   

...snip

You stated that you turned the engine backwards 90* (clockwise at the turning tool).   I believe that you are not supposed to turn the engine opposite of the normal direction.

Thanx for replying. 

Sorry...  I may have misread the OP and misstated my question based on Ivan's reply.  I am trying rotate the engine "forward" (not backwards) and find TDCC of Vert. Cylinder from Hor. Cylinder. 

Is looking at the crank tool rotating the tool 270 deg CCW is that the correct direction or rotating 450 deg CW to find TDCC for vertical cylinder by rotating the engine forward?  Does that question make more sense?

[Dirt Monster]

Is looking at the crank tool rotating the tool 270 deg CCW is that the correct direction

  From Horizontal TDC for compression... yes, that is the best way to find vert TDC compression.

Regarding turning the crank tool backwards (ie. clockwise)... "I wasn't reversing the direction to set the timing mark, only a little back and forth to lift the vert piston so the valves wouldn't fall in, then I'd scootch it back a little to lower it to get the closer shim to clear the opening rocker arm when removing it, then back up so the valve would stay higher to place the collets, etc.  It was easier than completing a whole revolution in one direction and having to keep track of TDC exhaust vs. TDC compression.  Before I reset the timing mark and replaced the belts I gave it a whole cycle forward."

once you get into the job it makes a whole lot more sense.

[ZyMe]

Cool.

Thanks for the clarification!

[dlk7u]

Thanks a lot for taking the time to write this up.  Seeing this helped me to have the confidence to try for myself.  I'm really glad i did - I learned a lot, and feel great about having done my own work. 

After reading this write-up and a few others, I decided to try this myself on my '07 monster 695.  My closest dealer wanted nearly $800 for the 7.5k mile job while nearly-new monster 695 motors were going for <$1000 on e-bay.  So i figured I'd try myself and that the worst case (blowing up the motor) would only cost me an extra $200 and i'd learn a lot either way.

I wanted to offer a few things from my experience.  Each of these items presumes that you've left the timing belts ON, so that the engine rotates as a unit.  Although this probably makes the job more difficult, it also makes it much less intimidating (to me).

-  The Haynes manual is great and worth every penny.  I feel the same about the Joby Gorillatorch, which is a flashlight on a flexible tripod with magnetic feet (that stick to the bike's frame), which is now one of my favorite possessions.

-  THE TOOLS FOR THE VALVE JOB CAN BE RENTED from DucatiToolRental.com.  The guy who runs the site is responsive, helpful, very professional and generally great.  Also, although he doesn't mention it on the website, the valve adjustment tool kit arrives with a set of beautiful, full-color instructions on how to do the job. 

-  He also rents full shim kits - he sends you the full (4v) kit, you take what you need, send it back, and he charges only for what you took.  I cannot stress how nice this is.  Your only other alternatives are (a) buying a smaller (2v) shim kit or (b) going to a dealer, who will sell you parts from his (4v) kit.  The 4v shims comes in increments that are half the size of the 2v ones.  That means less time wet-sanding shims to get a proper size.  Going to a dealer sucks because getting accurate shim measurements can be difficult (claimed sizes are often not accurate), and multiple trips to the dealer aren't possible if the bike you're working on is your primary mode of transportation.  Bottom line: this job is tricky enough (and the savings over dealer prices so enormous) that it really makes sense to spend a little more on materials and save a lot of hassle. 

-  Likewise, if you don't use his kit, it's worth throwing down for the ducati crank turning tool (included in the rental).  It's not strictly necessary, since you can align the timing dots by spinning the rear wheel, but that gets old really fast.  Plus, once you're done, it's easier to feel things spinning working smoothly by turning the crank because the wheel is inconvenient to the valves and spinning the whole drivetrain doesn't offer enough "touch" to feel for minor binding at the valves. 

-  Make sure to put lithium grease around/in the exposed valve stem grove (where the half-rings go) before installing the first half ring - this helps to keep it in the right place.  Likewise, make sure to plug the oil drain hole before you start work on the vertical cyl. to stop a stray half ring from falling into the engine.

-  I found that hemostats are not a great way to hold the valves in the "up" position once you've removed the closing shims.  Hemostats are basically unbladed scissors designed to clamp flat / extremely thin objects (like blood vessels, hence hemo-).  The valve stems are cylindrical and several millimeters across - meaning that the locking mechanism of a hemostat is apt to disengage at precisely the wrong moment (such as when the closing rocker arm snaps sharply upward while you're trying to reinstall the half rings).  I'm not sure what the proper tool is here, but something more akin to a small channel lock would be more appropriate: the offset hinge allows the tool to properly grip an object of non-zero thickness.

-  Since hemostats aren't great and i'm not sure what a better clamping tool is - the solution is simply to take steps to prevent the valve from falling into the cylinder in the event the clamp does slip before you've reinstalled the half-rings.  This is important, but easy: anytime you're working on a valve with the closing shim off, either raise the piston to TDC for that cylinder (by rotating the crank) or lower the piston and insert a soft pen (bic) or wooden dowel into the spark plug hole.  that way, if the valve slips down, it can't fall fully into the cylinder .  If you put an obstruction in the spark plug hole, MAKE SURE to remove it before turning the crank again.   

-  For reinstalling opening shims, i found it helpful to do a practice run before trying to install them.  I applied slight downward pressure on the closing rocker arm while rotating the engine through a full cycle (two turns at the crank) - this let me determine when the space ("gap") between the opening and closing arms was greatest, which is when i'd have the most room for sliding the opening shim into place.  My intuition that the greatest gap would occur when the opener was "fully raised" was totally wrong - mid-stroke was often easiest.  Often, the greatest gap could be achieved by applying downward pressure on the closer midway through a "closing" cycle (= as the upper/opening arm was traveling upward).  This is one more reason to have the crank tool - I don't think a single person could use one arm to fiddle with the valves while using the other to turn the wheel. 

-  Lastly, I wanted to offer a solution to problem I encountered when reinstalling the half rings.  After I got one half ring installed, my downwards grip on the arm/shim slipped, allowing the shim to snap upwards.  This knocked the "installed" ring out of the valve stem grove, wedging the ring (facing longways up the stem) between the stem and the narrow opening of the shim.  This is a huge pain to fix: because you can't apply upwards (positive) pressure on the stem, you can't simply grip the shim and force it down the stem because pushing down on the shim just lowers the valve stem at the same time. 

My solution (after much aggravation): position the female end of a 3/8" socket wrench extension bar over the top of the valve stem, so that the base of the extension bar sits on the top of the shim, yet the top of the valve stem doesn't reach the inside-ceiling of the extension.  Sharply rap the top of the extension bar with a hammer - although both shim and valve move downwards with the hit, the force is really being sent to the shim rather than the valve.  PRESTO - after a few hits, the jammed half ring works its way to the top of the gap between shim and stem, and can be removed.  I imagine a similar solution could be achieved by placing a small open-faced wrench to sit flat on top of the shim while spanning the valve stem, and then hitting the wrench downwards.   If anyone wants me to post pics of the problem, just let me know.

Good luck everyone!

[seevtsaab]

Congrats on a nice job, and paying attention to the details.
I would recommend removing the belts - for the reason you specified - better feel to determine
if there is binding with the closer.

Most importantly, for a job like this, is to develop a system you can stick to ( and incrementally improve).