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Author Topic: 695 valve adjust, MBP collets, and timing belt DIY notes & observations  (Read 18654 times)
Dirt Monster
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« on: February 08, 2009, 01:20:24 PM »

Hello all.  I've gotten a lot of help by reading various threads about DIY service and maintenance, and having just finished mine, I wanted to try to give something back to the list by posting my notes and observations while they're still fresh.  Much of this info is available in many other threads... the ideas are from others.  I take no credit, I've just tried to consolidate this into one place.  Also, I'm not sure how applicable this will be to other models.

Intimidation factor:  I'm not a pro, but I do know my way around a wrench.  I started by reading as many threads as I could, ordering the ProItalia ad DucatiTech videos, reviewing the service manual, studying the parts schematics, and by the end of all that, I was a little freaked out.  Shocked  I was able to take my time, assemble the proper tools and parts, and methodically and systematically tackle the job.  It took three ~4-hour sessions with the bike which included swapping in MBP collets for the half rings, and removing the cam shaft cover of the vert cylinder, pounding in the intake closer rocker shaft a wee bit, and replacing the gasket to fix a small oil leak there.  I noticed a few other problems like a worn boot on the rear brake piston, and encountered some others like roached o-rings on the gas tank quick-connect fittings which I fixed as I went along and slowed me down some.  I would expect my next valve / belt adjust could be done in about 4 hours total now that I know what I'm doing.  Before starting, I took notes, and wrote out step-by-step instructions for myself which helped.  What follows are those instructions edited and commented on with the insights gained from my struggles.

Tools:  The specialty tools, while not essential, definitely made the job easier.  It's hard enough without having to turn the back wheel to turn the crank, for instance.  I used the rocker arm depressor tool, and the crank turning tool with the angle wheel, digital calipers, feeler gauges, and a shim kit, all purchased from the good vendors i found mentioned on this forum.  I definitely under-appreciated the need to make the small wooden wedge used to hold down the closer rocker.  It is ESSENTIAL.  In addition:

•   White-Out and a red pen to mark the two cam and crank pulleys when the crank is positioned with the vertical cylinder TDC compression (machined dots are only for horizontal cylinder TDC).
•   A set of squishy ear plugs (with string attached) to press into the oil return holes so that nothing falls in.
•   Some nylon rope or tubing to thread into the spark-plug hole to keep the valves from falling into the cylinder if the piston is not at TDC and the closer shim is off the stem.
•   A 10mm deep-set socket, or a 2" piece of copper or thin-walled stiff plastic tubing to slide over the valve stem and gently tap to knock free closer shims that don't easily slide down exposing the half-rings.  (almost mandatory when using MBP collets since they fit so much more snugly).
•   A magnetic wand tool to catch the collets.
•   Grease to help stick the first collet on while placing the second one.
•   A small right-angle cotter pin tool to remove the rocker shaft clip.
•   A hand-made wooden tool (~4" long by 1/3" square)  to wedge below the closer rocker cam arm to hold the closer fork down while removing/inserting closer shims & collets.*** Until I made this, the job was impossible!!!
•   A short length of fishing line with a large washer tied to one end (for weight) to tape to the crank tool when it’s positioned at Horizontal TDC compression, which will then hang down and spool onto the shaft of the tool as it’s rotated and thereby allow the flywheel to be returned to the TDC compression position (as opposed to the exhaust TDC – ie. 360deg off) even if the crank is rotated after the timing belts have been removed. [call me paranoid  Embarrassed ]
•   A small piece of glass, some 300 & 600 grit sandpaper (get BOTH -- I had to sand one closer down from 2.75 to 2.45mm and I only had 600 grit.  2hours of misery), to sand down shims, if necessary (it will be necessary).
•   A laptop computer and microphone set-up (small microphone & iMic USB).
•   “Audacity” software to analyze belt vibration frequencies when setting tension.
•   Maintenance service manual DVD, Parts.pdf, DucatiTech CD, and ProItalia DVD.
•   Rags to catch the oil spill from horizontal lower valve cover.
•   Funnel, extra oil for replacing what’s spilled.
•   Rags / towels.
•   Clamp light, and head lamp.

Parts:  I used the EMS 4V 7mm shim kit.  I don't know if it's just me, but I used only shims on the small end of the kit.  This was expected for closers since the MBP collets lower the closer shim, but it was also the case for the openers.  I ended up having to do some sanding.  I don't know if this was unique to my bike, or all 695's, or all 2v 7mm valve'd bikes using the shim kit developed for 4V bikes  Huh? ?   When I ordered replacement shims, I ordered extras to cover the smaller-end range.  I bought valve cover gaskets and did NOT use them.  The metal gaskets are re-usable, and survived fine.  I chose to replace my timing belts.  The originals were quite loose -- the horizontal one could be removed without loosening the tensioner roller.  Yikes.  Probably could have gotten away with reusing the belts, but I justified the expense by virtue of all the money I saved doing it myself.  waytogo

One of the things that freaked me out was that I was going to screw up the timing during the process.  I wanted to make sure I understood the set-up well enough so that I would be able to avoid that at all costs.  Here's the summary of my findings:

Important concepts:
1.   With the belts on, aligning the flywheel timing mark (visible on left engine side through window), and the three belt pulley dots to their corresponding marks places the HORIZONTAL cylinder at TDC compression.
2.   Once the belts are off, it is possible to rotate the crank/flywheel 360deg to the exhaust stroke TDC, and then re-mount the belts with the flywheel timing mark and belt pulleys’ dots all properly aligned, which would result in no spark at TDC compression, but rather the ignition spark occurring at TDC exhaust.  bang head
3.   Rotating the crank tool 270deg counter-clockwise from Horizontal TDC compression, places the Vertical cylinder in TDC compression.
4.   Rotating the crank 450deg (90deg + 360deg) counter-clockwise from Vertical TDC compression, places the Horizontal cylinder back to TDC compression again.

Once I realized the above, I felt comfortable adjusting the valves with the timing belts off.  Now that I've done it with them off, I can't imagine doing it with the belts on unless you're just checking the loaded / unloaded gaps and everything with the closer gap is perfect.  (Even then, a measured closer gap of 0.00 doesn't mean there isn't any binding).  If anything needs to be adjusted (or if you're replacing the half-rings with MBP collets, there's no substitute when setting the closer gap to 0.00 than feeling minimal binding when rotating the cams by hand with the belts off and the opener rocker slid to the side and then sanding a few thou off the closer shim and having the binding disappear.  Bliss.

Preparation & Set-up:  I thought I could get away with leaving more stuff on the bike.  I struggled.  I swore.  Angry   Finally, I just ended up pulling stuff off the bike until I could see and get to everything easily.  ie: gas tank off, not just propped up, air box off, etc.  Surgeons call this "exposure".  It involves a little dissection.  20 minutes would have saved me 2 hours if I had realized this up front.
 
•   Remove the seat, shift into neutral.
•   Remove the gas tank. Don’t worry about which port/tube is “IN” and which is “OUT”, they're interchangable.  Check integrity of quick-release o-rings.
•   Disconnect the battery (negative side first).
•   Remove the battery & tray.
•   Remove the airbox.
•   Remove the battery mount frame. (nearly impossible to do with the airbox on... don't bother trying).
•   Remove the flywheel inspection cover & crank tool port.
•   Remove the timing belt covers. (short bolts at cam pulley ends, long bolts where covers mesh, medium bolt at the bottom of the horizontal cover)
•   Remove the spark plug from each cylinder.
•   Remove the vertical cylinder valve covers.
•   Save metal gaskets and reuse.
•   Place rags below the horizontal cylinder lower valve cover.
•   Remove the horizontal cylinder valve covers.
•   Put the squishy ear-plugs in the vertical cylinder oil return holes.
•   Attach the crank tool with the degree wheel to the crank.
•   Use White-Out to highlight all machined timing dots on all three pulleys and the corresponding marks on the engine case.
•   Rotate the crank using the crank tool counter-clockwise until all machined pulley dots, as well as the flywheel arrow are aligned with their corresponding marks.

o   The horizontal cylinder is now in TDC compression position.

Note: the next set of steps got me comfortable with the various timing marks and rotation of the engine.  I won't be doing all these machinations the next time I adjust the valves, but I'm glad I did this time.  Now that I know what I'm doing, instead of rotating only counter-clockwise, I rotate the engine backwards (clockwise) 90deg to lift the vert piston up to stop the vert valves from falling into the cylinder.

•   Tighten the nut on the degree wheel to align the flywheel mark to 0deg TDC.
•   Use White-out to place marks on the specific timing belt teeth that correspond to the machined marks on the pulleys/engine case. (this is not possible with the vertical (ie. inner) belt on the crank pulley side.
•   Tape the weighted fishing line securely to the shaft of the crank tool.
•   Rotate the crank tool counter-clockwise 270deg.

o   The vertical cylinder is now in TDC compression position.

•   Use White-Out and the red pen to mark all three pulleys where they correspond to the marks on the engine case.*** (Critical for setting the gaps on the vert cylinder once the belts come off!)
•   Make note of what appears in the generator cover inspection window. Is there another flywheel timing mark? [Yes]
•   Rotate the crank tool counter-clockwise 90deg and align the flywheel timing mark in the inspection window.

o   The horizontal cylinder is now in EXHAUST TDC position.
 
•   Make note of the flywheel window and pulley cams’ timing marks relative to the engine case. Same as before? [Flywheel window - yes, Pully cams' timing marks - no]
•   Rotate the crank tool counter-clockwise 360deg and align the flywheel timing mark in the inspection window.
 
o   The horizontal cylinder should be in TDC compression position again.
 
•   Unwind the fishing line on the crank tool shaft. (it should have gone around twice).
•   Remove, inspect and label the horizontal belt with an “H”.
•   Mark vertical belt tooth corresponding to the machined dot on the crank pulley with White-Out if not previously done.
•   Remove, inspect and label the vertical belt “V”.

Valve measurement / shim replacement:  (Repeat the next section 4 times, -- once for each valve.)

•   *Rotate the appropriate cam pulley so that it places the rockers in the TDC compression position (ie. for the horizontal cylinder’s valves, align the machined dot with the case mark; for the vertical valves, align the White-Out – red pen dot with the case mark).
•   Load the closer rocker arm by pushing down on the closer shim itself by hand, if there’s no movement, try using the closer rocker tool and push down to overcome the helper spring.  There should be no play or movement.  If there is, it’s loose.  If not, but it’s still possible to rotate the shim, it’s probably in spec.
•   Attempt to slide a feeler gauge between the closer rocker arm and closer shim.  Spec = 0.00 to 0.05mm (both intake & exhaust).
•   Confirm the measurement by first measuring the opener gap while pushing down the rocker arm, and then subtracting the same measurement without pushing down.
•   Calculate the (loaded) – (unloaded) gap: Spec = 0.00 to 0.05mm
•   Note the spacers’ positions on each side of rocker arm retention clip.
•   Remove the rocker arm retention clip.
•   Turn the cam pulley, and slide rocker arm over.
•   Remove the opener shim.
•   Spin the cam pulley and assess for binding. [Note: for each cylinder, both intake and exhaust opener rocker arms must be pushed to the side for the cams to spin freely when checking for binding-- also, if binding is felt, don't forget that it may be the "other" closer that hasn't yet been checked causing the binding, you may need to remove it before you can fully assess the first one you're working on.  Once the first closer is perfectly set to 0.00 with no binding, though, you can leave that one on while checking the second one.]
•   Raise the piston to TDC for that cylinder by turning the crank tool as appropriate.
•   Use the wooden wedge tool to hold down the closing rocker arm.
•   Slide the closing shim down the valve stem to expose the collets (tap with copper pipe tool if needed).
•   Remove the collets with magnetic tool.
•   Slide the closing shim off the valve stem (rotate the crank tool as needed to allow valve to lower).
•   Measure the removed closing shim using the closing shim measurement tool.
•   Calculate the appropriate closing shim size to achieve spec.
•   Select the appropriate closer shim size (sand down as required).
•   Replace the new closer shim.
•   Use grease to hold the first collet in place, then slide it around to the rear of the valve stem.
•   Place the second collet onto valve stem.
•   Raise and rotate the closing shim to seat the collets.
•   Remove the wooden wedge and release the closer rocker arm.
•   If using MBP collets, snap the closer arm against the shim to seat the collets on the valve. ***(if using the stock half-rings, this step probably isn't necessary, however, I found that it was impossible to get a consistent measurement unless the closer was well seated against the MBP collet which was impossible to achieve until I started snapping the closer rocker onto the bottom of the closer shim.  You don't need to compress the arm all the way down, just a quarter inch or so, then let it snap up.  I discovered this the first time by accident, then once I started doing this, my measurements became much more reproducible.  It didn't seem to harm anything valve-wise, I hope.   Undecided  YMMV.)
•   Rotate the cam pulley again, and check for binding.  Snap rocker arm again once or twice and see if the binding disappears.
•   Once closer is set to 0.00mm clearance and to just to the point where the binding disappears, replace the opener shim.
•   Rotate/jiggle the cam pulley and slide the rocker arm back in place.
•   Rotate the pulley cam to align the appropriate dot for TDC compression for that cylinder.
•   Measure the opener gap with a feeler gauge. Spec = 0.10-0.15mm (both intake & exhaust).
•   Turn the cam pulley, and slide rocker arm over.
•   Remove and measure the opening shim.
•   Calculate the appropriate opening shim size to achieve spec.
•   Replace the opener shim with the appropriately sized one (sand down as necessary).
•   Rotate/jiggle the cam pulley and slide the rocker arm back in place.
•   Rotate the pulley cam to align the appropriate dot for piston TDC compression for that cylinder.
•   Recheck (unloaded) opening rocker gap: Spec = 0.10-0.15mm
•   Recheck (loaded) opening rocker gap.
•   Confirm that (loaded) – (unloaded) gap: Spec = 0.00 to 0.05mm
•   Replace rocker arm retention clip (between the spacers as it was).
•   Move to the next valve and return to step*

[ ] Vert. Intake         [ ] Vert. Exhaust        [ ] Horiz. Intake          [ ] Horiz. Exhaust

Timing Belt re-assembly & tension adjustment:  This was probably the coolest thing... I can't believe that a cheap mic can pick up the harmonics so reproducibly!  It took some doing to get it just right, but the whole process made me proud to be italian.  Elegant.

•   Reconfirm that the flywheel mark is still aligned with the arrow in the generator inspection window.
•   Align the machined dots on all three pulleys with their corresponding engine case marks.
•   Replace the vertical timing belt.
•   Snug up the vertical tension roller and tighten it.
•   Reconfirm that the flywheel mark is still aligned with the arrow in the generator inspection window.
•   Reconfirm that the machined dots on all three pulleys align with their corresponding engine case marks.
•   Replace the horizontal timing belt.
•   Snug up the horizontal tension roller and tighten it.
•   Reconfirm that the flywheel mark is still aligned with the arrow in the generator inspection window.
•   Reconfirm that the machined dots on all three pulleys align with their corresponding engine case marks.
•   Gently rotate the crank tool counterclockwise, and ensure that the engine crank turns freely.
•   Turn engine crank several times.
•   Place crank in TDC compression for the horizontal cylinder.
•   Tighten the horizontal belt to spec using the microphone and acoustic software (record several "twangs", then use “Analyze” menu & “plot spectrum” function; set to “Spectrum”, “4096”, “Hamming”, and “log”) on the laptop to determine dominant oscillation frequency.  Spec = 110 Hz*. (see below – location 23). *Note: Ducati has updated this spec for the M695 from 145Hz in the service manual to 110Hz as per the service bulletin.



•   Place crank in TDC compression for the vertical cylinder.
•   Tighten the vertical belt to spec using the microphone and acoustic software on the laptop to determine dominant oscillation frequency. Spec = 110 Hz.* (see above – location 22). *Note: Ducati has updated this spec for the M695 from 160Hz in the service manual to 110Hz as per the service bulletin.


Final reassembly:
 
•   Replace the belt covers (Short bolts at cam pulley ends, long bolts where covers mesh, medium bolt at the bottom of the horizontal cover.)
•   Remove the squishy ear-plugs in the exhaust valve oil return holes.
•   Replace the valve covers reusing metal gaskets.
•   Replace the spark plugs and wires.
•   Replace the battery mount frame, drip tray, and reconnect the battery (positive first, then negative).
•   Replace oil lost when removing valve cover.
•   Replace the airbox, gas tank (Don’t worry about which port/tube is “IN” and which is “OUT”, they're interchangable.), and finally, the seat.
•   Reset the clock, check for gas leaks when the fuel pump fires up, reset the "Maint" indicator if it is on by holding the left button and keeping it held while turning the key until the needles are finished dancing.

Next, test ride... then beer.  Do not reverse the order of those last two steps.

 chug

Final comments:  I realize some of my steps are redundant and unnecessary, and I'm sure I've stepped on several toes, and people are going to come out and write "you don't have to do this" or "it's better to do it this way"... That's not my intention, this was just a record of my thoughts & observations.  Everything I've written here is one way or another posted or written somewhere else, I've tried to synthesize all that info with my own "first-timer" experience.  It looks easy when the heads are off the bike.  It's not easy.  I have to say, I was intimidated going into it, and now that it's over, I have a certain sense of relief and accomplishment that tells me that it wasn't easy.  It certainly isn't impossible, or beyond someone with a basic understanding of engines, knowledge of tools, and minimal hand-eye coordination, so I hope this will be helpful to someone taking this on for the first time.  The next one will be soooo much easier.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2009, 03:51:30 PM by Dirt Monster » Logged

"I came into this game for the action, the excitement... go anywhere, travel light,... get in, get out,... wherever there's trouble, a man alone... Now they got the whole country sectioned off; you can't make a move without a form."
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« Reply #1 on: February 08, 2009, 06:07:11 PM »


•   Tighten the horizontal belt to spec using the microphone and acoustic software (record several "twangs", then use “Analyze” menu & “plot spectrum” function; set to “Spectrum”, “4096”, “Hamming”, and “log”) on the laptop to determine dominant oscillation frequency.  Spec = 145 Hz. (see below – location 23).


•   Place crank in TDC compression for the vertical cylinder.
•   Tighten the vertical belt to spec using the microphone and acoustic software on the laptop to determine dominant oscillation frequency.  Spec = 160 Hz. (see above – location 22).


Great write-up   chug

You might want to double-check on the belt tension requirements.  At least for the DS1000 engine, those high frequencies (resulting in very tight belts) are only used while resetting the valve timing, which many say is not something you need to do.  Once the timing is set, the tension is supposed to be set much looser.  The so-called operating frequency should be around 105 Hz.  Again, this is for a DS1000, your application might be different.  I point this out because there has been a lot of confusion about this, and running the tension too tight can take out the bearings on the belt tensioner rollers (which can then cause the belt to shred).

There is some spectrum analyzer software (Virtins Multi-Instrument is one example) that will give you a real-time FFT plot from your sound-card/microphone. This gives you instant feedback on the tension.  No need to record and then analyze the sampled data.  It just makes life a little bit easier.  You might also want to calibrate your measurements against a known reference, the crystal oscillators that they use on most cheap sound-cards are not as accurate as one would think.  Mine was off by 8 Hz.

You stated that you turned the engine backwards 90* (clockwise at the turning tool).   I believe that you are not supposed to turn the engine opposite of the normal direction.

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« Reply #2 on: February 08, 2009, 06:36:10 PM »

Ivan, thanks for the feedback,
re: timing belt tension.  It must be that different bikes have different specs & methodologies of setting tensions.  For the 695... from the service manual; "Timing belt tension could decrease in time as a result of normal wear and tear. When checking belt tension, restore specified nominal values (Sect. C 1.1, Timing/valves) or in any case set tension to at least 80% of nominal values when reading is below 70 Hz."  and Sect. C 1.1 is the specs and methodology as I described; "145 Hz (horizontal)  160 Hz (vertical)".  Bottom line is that you've got to check the service manual for your bike.

re: calibrating mic / sound cards... good point.  All I can say is that I tried the same mic on a couple of computers and they were all spot on.  Regardless, I really couldn't manually feel the fine tuning differences in belt tightness and I'd guess that +/- 10Hz has to be insignificant when compared to the old methodologies of the spring/fish scale contraption or the 5mm allen wrench pass-through test.  The acoustic method is crazy precise and accurate.

re: acoustic software... recording and analyzing wasn't that big a deal... it was very cool to actually see all the harmonics and the software picks out the peak for you.  I demo'ed some guitar tuner programs that would spit out the major frequency as a number (Hz), but I didn't trust them so much.  Seeing all the peaks let me know which the major one was for sure.

re: rotating the engine backwards... I've read in various places both that it's not an issue, and that it's bad.  What I haven't read anywhere is a logical explanation why it's bad, nor any anecdotes about what bad things happened when the engine was slowly and gently rotated backwards 90deg with the battery disconnected, the spark plugs out, timing belts off and the tranny in neutral.  Other than it sounds funny... kind of whiney.  My bike fired up beautifully and seems none the worse for it.
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« Reply #3 on: February 08, 2009, 06:49:34 PM »

<snip>
re: rotating the engine backwards... I've read in various places both that it's not an issue, and that it's bad.  What I haven't read anywhere is a logical explanation why it's bad, nor any anecdotes about what bad things happened when the engine was slowly and gently rotated backwards 90deg with the battery disconnected, the spark plugs out, timing belts off and the tranny in neutral.  Other than it sounds funny... kind of whiney.  My bike fired up beautifully and seems none the worse for it.
The reasoning for not rotating the engine backwards is not that anything bad will happen, but rather since the layshaft is gear driven the play in the gears will allow the crank to reach the desired point before the timing marks on the shaft/align.

If you're doing it to make adjustments, they might not be as accurate as if the crank were turned in normal direction.
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« Reply #4 on: February 08, 2009, 06:52:12 PM »

Nice work  waytogo

How many miles on the bike when you took on the task?  How far off were the clearances?  How does it run post-adjustment?

BK
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« Reply #5 on: February 08, 2009, 07:10:39 PM »

Ducati has been reducing the tightness of the belt since the manuals were written due to bearing failures.  You might want to check with your dealer for the latest specs.
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« Reply #6 on: February 08, 2009, 08:09:08 PM »

yeah 145/160 hz is too tight, as howie said, they've lowered it quite a bit
while you were there did you check the to see if the valve guides were out of spec?  The guides on my 695 were WAY out of spec at 7,000 miles, luckily I caught it just before my warranty expired
the only thing I didn't see is that on the 695 there is a tool (just a threaded pin really) that is used to lock the camshaft in place.  Your supposed to lock the shaft in place when putting belts on, loosen the three bolts on camshaft pulley and rotate it backwards, then put the belts on and tension.  That keeps everything timed while you tension your belts while distributing the tension on both sides of the belt/pulleys  (I should mention the actual Ducati tool that locks the crankshaft in place is helpful here as well).
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« Reply #7 on: February 08, 2009, 10:03:35 PM »

Thanks, all good points.

ducpainter: that makes sense.  I wasn't reversing the direction to set the timing mark, only a little back and forth to lift the vert piston so the valves wouldn't fall in, then I'd scootch it back a little to lower it to get the closer shim to clear the opening rocker arm when removing it, then back up so the valve would stay higher to place the collets, etc.  It was easier than completing a whole revolution in one direction and having to keep track of TDC exhaust vs. TDC compression.  Before I reset the timing mark and replaced the belts I gave it a whole cycle forward.

BK: The bike has about 6200miles.  A little early, I know, but it's winter, eh?  I didn't want to have to stop riding when the weather warms and do this... I know I'd be rushing and sloppy 'cause I'd just want to go out and ride.  Once I realized that changing out the stock half rings for the MBP collets was going to change the closer clearances so much, I skipped the initial measuring.  I simply removed the stock closer, measured it, picked one 3 or 4 sizes smaller, and replaced it with the MBP collets.  Then I measured, and calculated the shim I actually needed based on that one.  Once I got the closers perfect with no play and no binding, I put in opener shims that I knew were a bit small, measured, calculated the opener size I actually needed, and fine tuned from there.  It runs great post-adjustment.  Haven't taken it for a long, hard ride yet.  Then again, it was running pretty good before as well.

howie:  I'll check with the dealer.  The guys at Ducati Soho have been great with advice & parts... they seem really supportive of folks doing their own wrenching.  Big difference from ManhattanBMW; when you walk in there and tell them that you're working on your own bike (my wife rides a F650GS) they give you attitude like you've raped their daughter.

woody: I just scanned the manual regarding checking the valve guides... I can't see how it could be done with the head on the engine.  Maybe i'm reading the wrong section.  What were the symptoms that inspired you to check them?  Now you've got me nervous. 

Regarding locking the crank and cam shafts in place... it really wasn't that hard to keep them from moving -- the pulleys would have to move quite a bit to even be one tooth off.  I never removed the pulley wheels, so I can't imagine the timing would end up any different from what it started out at unless I missed by a whole tooth.  I just went slowly, and kept checking that all the dots & marks stayed lined up and nothing had moved as I was noodge-ing the new belts back on.  After I tensioned and tightened everything, I rotated the crank several rotations and checked the tension again, and it was unchanged.  After I ride a few miles, I'll pop the covers and check again... by then I'll know the updated tension specs as well.  I'm not sure it's worth loosening those three pulley-flange bolts and risk effing up the timing.  Certainly you'd need those locking pins if you were going to set the tension that way... or had to remove/replace the pulley.  My interpretation of the manual is that they are describing a complete disassembly / reassembly of the timing system, so they don't already have the exact timing setting and have to go by the flange-hole pin-lock, and then tighten the pulleys to the flange based on that.
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« Reply #8 on: February 09, 2009, 07:43:23 AM »

good writeup!

Im currently in the process of doing my valves and belts.. well im actually just waiting for 1 exhaust closer shim and im done but after thinking about the belts... I dont remember if i rotated the crank with the belts off, i dont think i did but just to be safe, how can you tell if the horizontal piston is TDC compression or TDC exhaust without starting up the bike to find that it wont start  bang head
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woodyracing
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« Reply #9 on: February 09, 2009, 08:37:57 AM »


woody: I just scanned the manual regarding checking the valve guides... I can't see how it could be done with the head on the engine.  Maybe i'm reading the wrong section.  What were the symptoms that inspired you to check them?  Now you've got me nervous. 

Regarding locking the crank and cam shafts in place... it really wasn't that hard to keep them from moving -- the pulleys would have to move quite a bit to even be one tooth off.  I never removed the pulley wheels, so I can't imagine the timing would end up any different from what it started out at unless I missed by a whole tooth.  I just went slowly, and kept checking that all the dots & marks stayed lined up and nothing had moved as I was noodge-ing the new belts back on.  After I tensioned and tightened everything, I rotated the crank several rotations and checked the tension again, and it was unchanged.  After I ride a few miles, I'll pop the covers and check again... by then I'll know the updated tension specs as well.  I'm not sure it's worth loosening those three pulley-flange bolts and risk effing up the timing.  Certainly you'd need those locking pins if you were going to set the tension that way... or had to remove/replace the pulley.  My interpretation of the manual is that they are describing a complete disassembly / reassembly of the timing system, so they don't already have the exact timing setting and have to go by the flange-hole pin-lock, and then tighten the pulleys to the flange based on that.

I used the patented "wiggle the valve" method lol.  I was going to school at Wyotech in the Ducati course when I did the service and Bruce Meyers suggested I check the valve guides just in case.  Otherwise I wouldn't have even considered it.  It didn't have any problems I could specifically attribute to the valve guides as it came stock running way too lean.  I installed the DP ECU (+ exhaust & airbox obviously) at the same time so its hard to say if there would have been any noticeable issues with just the bad valve guides at that stage.

The way you did the timing belts will work fine, the way I mentioned is just the official way of doing it. 
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« Reply #10 on: February 09, 2009, 08:42:47 AM »

...how can you tell if the horizontal piston is TDC compression or TDC exhaust without starting up the bike to find that it wont start  bang head

Well, the section in the manual is this one:
Engine: 4.1 - Head unit: checks and adjustments
   -    Checking and adjusting valve clearance
   -    Checking engine timing

Reading through it, though a couple things stand out.  You first rotate the crank to find TDC.  Then you put the cams in the "rest" position.  Then you slap the belts on and tension them, then you rotate the crank forward and backwards(!) as per their instructions while measuring the intake and exhaust valve lifts.  It's not clear to me anywhere in that process how you're differentiating between TDC comp & TDC exhaust.  Could it be that the ECU detects the valve/cam/piston/crank position and fires the spark appropriately?  Additionally, I can't see how the timing marks on the pulleys would be lining up with the engine casing marks with their process -- it's not mentioned at all.  Huh?

It wasn't something I wanted to have to sort out, so I focused on avoiding the problem altogether.  There was a thread somewhere where someone had screwed up the timing on one cylinder to be 360deg out of exhaust / comp phase, they didn't know which it was, picked the wrong one and switched the other 360deg, the bike ran fine, but the timing marks were all off.  Finally took his bike in to get serviced if I recall.

BTW, apparently at least with the timing of one cylinder out of phase, the bike starts, but runs like crap and dies in a few seconds / minutes.
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"I came into this game for the action, the excitement... go anywhere, travel light,... get in, get out,... wherever there's trouble, a man alone... Now they got the whole country sectioned off; you can't make a move without a form."
--Robert De Niro as Archibald 'Harry' Tuttle in Brazil, 1985.
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« Reply #11 on: February 09, 2009, 08:59:28 AM »

IIRC it takes two revolutions of the crankshaft to turn the main belt pulley one full rotation so the dot on the main belt pulley aligned with the mark on the crankcase = Horizontal TDCC
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« Reply #12 on: February 09, 2009, 11:01:36 AM »

this thread gives valve job a +5 more intimidation points for me...
eek.
my dealership is reasonable thank god...
some day i will attempt this... maybe by 12000 miles i'll be up for it.
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« Reply #13 on: February 09, 2009, 11:09:23 AM »

IIRC it takes two revolutions of the crankshaft to turn the main belt pulley one full rotation so the dot on the main belt pulley aligned with the mark on the crankcase = Horizontal TDCC

 waytogo You're absolutely correct.  The only way to screw it up would be to remove the crank pulley and put it back wrong, which I'm not sure is possible since it's keyed.  The unlabled gear at the end of the crankshaft in the first diagram is the smaller timing gear labled #10 in the second drawing which meshes with it's mate at a 2:1 ratio.  The larger gear is connected to the shaft which drives the pulley.



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"I came into this game for the action, the excitement... go anywhere, travel light,... get in, get out,... wherever there's trouble, a man alone... Now they got the whole country sectioned off; you can't make a move without a form."
--Robert De Niro as Archibald 'Harry' Tuttle in Brazil, 1985.
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« Reply #14 on: February 09, 2009, 11:21:31 AM »

this thread gives valve job a +5 more intimidation points for me...
eek...

FWIW it makes a lot more sense when it's in 3D right in front of you.  There's definitely a learning curve though.  Like I said, the next one for me will be 100X easier, faster, and less stressful.  Taking a seminar or workshop where you could play around with a head on a bench sounds like a great idea and should go a long way to building confidence and developing technique for the tricky bits (holding / wedging closer arm down, removing and placing collets, etc.).

There's one on the list now: http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=18934.0
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"I came into this game for the action, the excitement... go anywhere, travel light,... get in, get out,... wherever there's trouble, a man alone... Now they got the whole country sectioned off; you can't make a move without a form."
--Robert De Niro as Archibald 'Harry' Tuttle in Brazil, 1985.
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