Ducati Monster Forum

Dudes,

It is actually about the lever I guess. At 63,000 miles and climbing I guess a clutch issue shouldn't be a shock, huh? Anyhoo, the bike has occasionally started to creep a bit (VERY lightly) when I have the lever pulled all the way in, but not all of the time. I was thinking I would just move the little adjustment pin a bit to account for that and buy myself some more time. I went for a nice ride yesterday and when I got home I swear that the lever is "bottoming out" earlier than it had before. I think it used to come all the way back to the grip, now it is fully 1/4" away from the grip before I meet strong resistance.

Is there something odd going on or is this a case of "Um, you got nearly 65,000miles outta the clutch, replace that shit!"?

Mark

Most likely a slave issue if you have bled the clutch lately.

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http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=73379.msg1351052#msg1351052

Be worth looking at the clutch slave for a slow leak and the basket and plate tangs for chewed up wear that makes for a dragging and grabby clutch. Does the fluid level mysteriously drop? Leaks behind the slave? Check the pressure plate bearing too.

Well that was a short lived endeavor.........

I opened the reservoir and it seemingly isn't low on fluid, though it has been a long time since I have had it open. I figured I'd remove the slave and check it for signs of leakage. 2 of the 3 bolts broke away easily, and........ you guessed it, the 3rd MF'r stripped. It is the top left one if you are looking at the slave. These bolts are recessed in the slave so the ONLY thing showing is the rounded head, nothing to grab from the outside.

Any suggestions?

Mark

A pic would help heaps. I'm thinking helicoil or Timesert thread repair or if its wrecked a new, used cover. Those bolts are not a high torque job. Has the bike been down?

By "broke away" you mean unfastened? If the thread is stripped that bad it might come off by unfastening and pulling on the slave at the same time.

If the problem is just that the hex is stripped out you might be able to get it out by hammering in a torx, as koko said, it shouldn't be tight.  Another alternative is a left hand drill.  Also, something like this  https://www.sears.com/craftsman-7-pc-drill-out-screw-out-power-extractors/p-00952157000P  or this  https://www.toolpan.com/Irwin-Hanson-1876225--6-Piece-Impact-Screw-Grip-Double-Ended-Screw-Extractor-Set_p_30601.html?gdffi=d5de8d975e554fe98677ff5f83efd439&gdfms=1689B914BFEA4C598238F1F25999890F

I'm thinking it's the hex that's stripped, and pounding in a torx bit will typically work on a low torque fastener like that.

Another option is to use a drill to just remove the head of the screw and then vise grips to remove the threaded portion.

What DP said on the Torx, I think that's actually what the torx was designed for.

Next, Howie's extractors if one will get a grip in the fuxxored hole.

Failing that, a left hand drill in the size appropriate for the extractor.

If the drill doesn't get it, then the extractor.

If still no, then 5.5mm drill is good to remove nearly all of a 6mm shank and a little bit of brute force on the head it'll pop off.

At that point, shank should twist out by hand or with pliers.



If the shank won't come out, report back and that'll be phase 2.



I've seen weird stopping of the lever when the clutch basket nut gets loose and starts backing out.
The master and slave will happily adjust out to follow it until the slave bottoms out, which gives the early lever stop.

Thanks for all of the advice, I'll try the Torx first and I'll keep you posted.

I did take a picture but my Photobucket account seemingly doesn't exist anymore. What are we currently using to post pictures?



Mark

Photobucket hijacked everyone and all their pictures. Pay or else  [bang]

Flickr or postimage or ........

Torx to the rescue! This is why I couldn't get a hold of the head of the bolt, it sits recessed inside the slave:

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50406243651_446911dd89_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2jNeb7p)20200929_191435 (https://flic.kr/p/2jNeb7p) by Mark Hanis (https://www.flickr.com/photos/190469199@N06/), on Flickr

Anyway, all looked normal with the slave, no appearance of leakage of fluid.

Here is what my basket looks like, I know I am on borrowed time with this:

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50406239971_e873f07f67_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2jNea1X)20201001_191501 (https://flic.kr/p/2jNea1X) by Mark Hanis (https://www.flickr.com/photos/190469199@N06/), on Flickr


Here is a quick video, it seems to me that the plate simply isn't moving out enough:

(https://live.staticflickr.com/31337/50405532398_2bcce5e7b8_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2jNawFq)20201001_191515 (https://flic.kr/p/2jNawFq) by Mark Hanis (https://www.flickr.com/photos/190469199@N06/), on Flickr

Thoughts?

Mark

I guess I cannot make the video load inside the board?

Mark

Theyre buggered.
The tangs will drag in the slots causing clutch drag. Time for a new basket and plates and maybe a hub/drum.

What he said ^

I use Barnett baskets and OEM or Ferodo plates.

At 63k a hub would not be a bad idea, those wear under the star washer and eventually get funky.

Not knowing shit from shinola, just looking at the basket I thought to myself, "We'll, that ain't good!". I figured the plates were getting stuck in the ridges of the basket.

Well phooey.

Mark

 [thumbsup] [laugh]

It's no small thing getting that mileage out of a dry clutch.
Usually the tang and basket wear jacks up the function and it gets grabby and shrieky just uncooperative.

There are 48 tooth clutch plates and baskets that are more durable, quieter and smooother.

So I've been doing a bit of looking around and I am bummed that Monsterparts isn't around anymore as Jeff would have been my first stop! Anyhoo, is 48 tooth the way to go?

So new basket, new hub and the plates. I'll need the clutch "hold" tool as well. Since Jeff is out, where is my first stop for this stuff?

Mark

^^^^ that guy  [Dolph]

Do you mean Speeddog?

If yes, I didn't know he sold parts, just service for those lucky enough to be in his neighborhood.

Mark

Yes - maybe he doesn't know it yet, but he's perfect for it  [clap]

I haven't talked to some of the usual suspects lately so not sure what all I can get my hands on but I'll ring em up and see.
I likely do not have a decent OEM hub with 6 posts.
Aftermarket hubs are all solid IIRC and that may not be a good idea on a DS.
Will check and see what's available.

So while I am waiting for some parts from a poor individual who was doing nothing more than sitting around, minding his own business when he was unknowingly volunteered (thanks Lars!), I have a couple of questions.

1. The push rod came out with the pressure plate. Will that need to be re-inserted from the clutch slave side? There are 3 rubber seals on it and to my mind they need to be all the way to the left on the rod which would mead inserting it from the left and not the right.

2. Should those seals re replaced since I have the rod out.

3. Ditto the bearing in the pressure plate, should I replace that as well?

Mark

Considering the mileage, now is the time and they don't cost much.

I tend to agree.

But the rod question remains; install from the slave side or doesn't matter?

Mark

I prefer from the slave side.

Slave side, and lube them thoroughly before you cram them into the gear shaft.

Only replace the bearing if it doesn't feel smooth.

No need to fix what isn't broken.

Thanks boys!

Mark

There's 2 O-rings on the left end, I've got good viton ones for that.

There is a seal that goes in the end of the transmission shaft on the right side.
I've got that as well.

Has anyone heard from Speeddog recently? He was helping me source parts but he has gone radio silent over the last several weeks. With all the shit going on I was wondering if anyone has had contact with him recently.........

Mark

He's around, maybe working on the Salsa moves or watering the tomatoes  [thumbsup] Mayb even a small vacation :o

He's logged on the forum, so he's still kicking.

Maybe he doesn't like you anymore. ;D

He’s around.  Try a PM..

Mark, I'm very sorry about how this has worked out up to this point, and I apologize for going radio silent.
I've been largely unable to exclude the general chaos, and my efficiency is at an all time low.
I'm making some changes expressly to eliminate some of the chaos and improve my efficiency.

No worries 'Dog. I am in manufacturing and I certainly understand the chaos, this has been an absolute beating of a year.

I was just wondering where we stood.

I'm glad you are OK!

Mark

Any idea where we stand?

Mark

So I have my stuff and the clutch plates arrived "stacked" and in order. For the life of me I cannot identify anything different between the regular 1.5mm steel plates and the concave 1.5mm plates. Is the concave part small enough to not be noticed?

And the instructions say to degrease the steel plates, but I don't feel anything on them. Will a simple wipe down suffice?

Mark

Wipe them down with a solvent. Brakekleen works great.

Sometimes there is a stamped dot on the curved or convex plate. It is often 0.5mm or so thinner than the other plates.

Am I supposed to clean ALL of the discs or just the plain steel ones?

Mark

If the discs were packaged with steel against fiber, clean them all. If the fibers were packaged separately, you can install them as is. Cleaning with brakleen won't hurt them either way.

So, it isn't working...... >:(

The lever actually feels exactly like it did when I started having trouble, it is like the lever will not pull in far enough to push the rod all the way out. This is all of the movement I am getting.

(https://live.staticflickr.com/31337/50963457688_7e00951a76_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2kDt3qY)20210220_175559 (https://flic.kr/p/2kDt3qY) by Mark Hanis (https://www.flickr.com/photos/190469199@N06/), on Flickr

Is that the necessary distance? Is it possible that there is something wrong with my slave or master? It just doesn't feel "right" like I said, the lever feels just like it did when I started all of this.

Mark

Had you done any of those PP mods just prior to having trouble? Do you still have the stocker you can swap in?

You don't need much movement for a clutch to disengage.

Nothing was changes for several thousand miles before I started having trouble. I just too the opportunity to replace the pressure plate and springs since it was all going to be apart.

I'll try the previous pressure plate and derby back.

Is there a minimum movement measurement?

Mark

No hard number that I've ever seen.

Missing a spacer in the slave cylinder, or is the pressure plate button different to the one removed?  Just looking for a few mm somewhere  ;D

...or perhaps the old PP bearing was bad causing the pushrod to 'drill' it's way into the slave piston?

Yep, a few mm there, and strange feel.

I have been wracking my brain over the last couple of days about this. Back when all of this started I had the feeling that there was something wrong on the lever side, it didn't feel like it was working right at all. The furthest I could pull it in was about 1" from the handlebar. I cannot remember for sure, but I believe it used to come all the way in and rest on the handlebar.

Anyway, that is what got me to looking into everything to begin with. If you go back and look at the first set of images you'll see where the basket and tangs (tabs?) on the clutch plates are worn terribly and VERY rigid. What I assumed was happening was that the tangs were getting bound up in the ridges of the basket and when I pulled in the lever there was not sufficient space being created between the plates.

I know believe that that thought process was wrong. I believe that the old plates only worked because they were THAT much thinner than the new ones and while the "push out" was reduced there was just enough clearance to allow the plates to mostly space apart. The new plates, being just a c-hair thicker, don't work because the pressure plate isn't going out far enough.

Which in my mind brings me back to the master or slave.

If the rod had pushed back into the slave a few MM, do you think it would show wear on the end of the rod?

Koko, for the life of me I cannot come up with any missing parts,

Sorry for the long winded post, I just wanted you guy to see my train of thought.

Mark

Sorry I'm not right there with the beers to see.

The pushrod is steel. The piston in the slave is likely aluminum. The wear will be in the slave piston, if any. You might be able to remove the slave and carefully remove the dust boot to check the piston surface. It will be concave by design, but if it has an impression the exact size of the pushrod, you've found your issue.

Beers are on me if you can make it to a nicely thawing Texas!

I've gotten a vacuum pump so I’ll give it a bleed to eliminate that as a problem.

And see what I can see inside the slave.

Mark

I’ve seen the pushrod adhere itself to the button in the pressure plate many times.  And by adhere, I mean just short of weld itself to the button...

Check it *all* before making a judgement...

I appreciate you jumping in, but I am afraid I don't understand what you are saying. Can you clarify?

Are you saying that the rod has gone deeper into the button, basically making the rod too short?

Mark

Not that it makes the push rod shorter per se.  The push rod digging into the slave cylinder is more likely.

Well boys, it was loaded up and brought to the dealership yesterday, I have thrown in the towel.

A buddy came over and bled it over and over and when all was said and done the clutch lever felt EXACTLY like it did when all of this started.  :P

So I am currently of the opinion that there is something wrong with the master or slave and that slow failure is what lead me to look at and replace the plates. Clearly they were needing to be replaced sometime soon so I don't feel like I wasted the money, I just didn't fix my problem by replacing them.

The guys at the dealership agreed that the lever didn't feel "right".

I'll let you know what they determine.

Mark

It turns out my slave failed. It was an Oberon. Do you guys have a preference on a replacement: Oberon again, Ducabike?

Thoughts?

I ordered a Ducabike slave.

Mark

Glad it got figured out. Did they say what the failure was?

Oberon have a good rep, but mine failed in a very short time. Strangely, I've have good luck with late model oem.

He said that the piston wasn't pushing out far enough, nothing more detailed than that. Should I ask for clarification or something like that?

Mark

I wish I could remember how long I had my Oberon on that failed. We'll see how the Ducabike treats me.

Mark

Oberon parts are covered by lifetime repair warranty.....

Well shit.

Mark

So after installation of the Ducabike slave all is well again, I am back on the road!

Thanks for everyone's help. I will contact Oberon and see what is involved with their warranty. I guess better to have an extra laying around, huh?

Mark