Ducati Monster Forum

Moto Board => Tech => Topic started by: koko64 on September 09, 2020, 07:07:45 PM



Title: M1100/Evo Showa/Marzocchi Forks
Post by: koko64 on September 09, 2020, 07:07:45 PM
Got a lead on some M1100 forks. Are they Showa on that model and rated better than the Marzocchi forks on the Evo1100? Are they a straight swap and is the valving and oem spring weight a better platform than the fancier looking Evo forks?.


Title: Re: M1100/Evo Showa/Marzocchi Forks
Post by: Moronic on September 11, 2020, 06:08:19 AM
Hi Tony, yes they are Showa. Not that flash and have the progressive springs I suspect. A friend has an 1100 and I wouldn't be rushing into a swap (although I've not tried the EVO version).

Main advantage I think is that replacement cartridges are much more widely available and easier and cheaper to fit.

We measured laden sag on the Showas with stock springs and with a rider who I would guess about 90 kg geared up it was nearly half the travel. Winding up the adjusters didn't help a great deal.

Don't know whether they would be a straight swap and question would be whether you'd be as well off spending more for new cartridges in what you have - assuming you can get some.

Others likely will chime in with more direct experience.


Title: Re: M1100/Evo Showa/Marzocchi Forks
Post by: koko64 on September 11, 2020, 08:34:42 AM
Hey Ian, I lost your number in my dead phone! PM me mate. Hope you're doing well in our lock down.  Thanks for the info. I can report that the Marzocchi forks in the Evo actually respond to both damping and preload adjustments, so that's something in their favour.


Title: Re: M1100/Evo Showa/Marzocchi Forks
Post by: ducpainter on September 11, 2020, 08:58:29 AM
The stock Showa valve is pretty poor on the street bike forks. The holes are tiny compared to the SBK, or Race-Tech valves.


Title: Re: M1100/Evo Showa/Marzocchi Forks
Post by: koko64 on September 11, 2020, 09:44:02 AM
Thanks Nate, that settles it. Cheers.


Title: Re: M1100/Evo Showa/Marzocchi Forks
Post by: Moronic on September 11, 2020, 08:51:51 PM
Looks like there are more options now for the 'zokes.

https://www.omniaracing.net/en/andreani-misano-evo-adjustable-hydraulic-cartridge-for-marzocchi-ducati-monster-1100-evo-2011201-p-19745.html

No idea what these are like but they're not stupidly expensive.


Title: Re: M1100/Evo Showa/Marzocchi Forks
Post by: koko64 on September 12, 2020, 01:25:54 AM
Thanks Ian.

I'm going to try oil and linear springs as the forks respond to adjustment which has made them tolerable with the wrong spring. If a used pair appeared I would work them and keep spares. I feel this will be my last Monster.
The Sachs shock otoh is both harsh and lacking control at times and my suspension guy hates them, so I'll run it by him. I might just service the forks with new springs and minor valve tuning and save for an Ohlins or other aftermarket shock.


Title: Re: M1100/Evo Showa/Marzocchi Forks
Post by: koko64 on September 12, 2020, 05:53:43 PM
I find it ominous that ebay is littered with used Evo fork internals and that Andreani and Matris kits keep showing up in every search  :P

I've got 8.5, 9 and 9.5 kg Gixxer springs that should fit. Seals, linear springs, a tube polish and oil would be a budget fix. I'm 200 without gear. Going quick on bumpy mountain roads is the plan.


Title: Re: M1100/Evo Showa/Marzocchi Forks
Post by: koko64 on September 20, 2020, 06:02:30 PM
To the suspension brains trust..

Servicing the forks on this Evo. I have found some 0.9kg Gixxer 43mm fork springs. If they fit ok I'm looking at trying them. I have spacers that can be cut down. I also have a single 9.5kg spring that I could use and leave the oem progressive spring in the other tube as a compromise street setting (speeddog has mentioned this option iirc).  I'm 200 in shorts, so am I in the ballpark with this bike?


Title: Re: M1100/Evo Showa/Marzocchi Forks
Post by: MonsterHPD on September 21, 2020, 12:41:17 AM
Hello,

I think with 200 + gear, I would try the gsxr springs first, and prepare the 9.5 + spacer so you could easily drop it in if you need to.

My guess :-)


Title: Re: M1100/Evo Showa/Marzocchi Forks
Post by: koko64 on September 21, 2020, 04:37:55 AM
Thanks for your advice [thumbsup]. Appreciated.


Title: Re: M1100/Evo Showa/Marzocchi Forks
Post by: Speeddog on September 21, 2020, 08:29:51 AM
What MonsterHPD said!  ;D

I used the 'one prog, one straight rate' springing for a couple reasons, only a few of which are relevant here.

The straight rate springs I had were pretty good, but I thought maybe I could get better compliance with a lower rate spring and raise the oil level to maintain bottoming resistance.
But then the trifecta: no softer linear springs on the shelf, lots of OEM progressive ones on the shelf, and at times I'm a really cheap and impatient bastard.
So one linear and one prog it was.
Worked great with a little fiddling.
It got me to where I wanted to go, but it's got some baggage.

Aggro is setting preload, depends on the topout springs.
If the topout springs are stiff enough, the forks want to be different free lengths unless they're preloaded enough to completely squash the topout springs.
So then the fork bottoms are misaligned and the axle really does not want to slide in or out.
This can lead to confusion as the axle went in/out fine before and that stuff didn't get changed.
So then hammers are being being picked up and that's often a bad approach for things that are binding.

If you're lucky the topout springs are soft and even at zero turns of preload they're squashed.

Since running into this issue more than once, along with the common 'axle now oval due to overtightened pinch bolts' syndrome, I check for a relatively free-sliding axle before I pick the wheel up and struggle to install.

I have a small pile of prog springs and it feels like a bit of a waste if they just sit there (tho I didn't manufacture these generally unsuitable parts, so I should feel no guilt).
Furthermore, there's likely some area for improvement in ride quality by optimizing the topout springs but I'm not going to fall down that rabbit hole.


Title: Re: M1100/Evo Showa/Marzocchi Forks
Post by: MonsterHPD on September 21, 2020, 11:59:35 AM
The Ducati forks with top-out springs that I have encountered have pretty soft top-outs, so If I want to measure sag from fully and surely extended forks I do so by screwing the pre-load all the way in. As you say, that will completely squash the top-outs.

The aggro with non-parallell front axle bores .... extremely annoying. Would probably not be half as annoying, if only one had 3 hands ....

I have managed to slightly improve oval front axles by mounting them 90° (no wheel ...) and give them a good tightening. I think part reason they get oval is that they always sit in the same position on the Showas with fork-bottom adjuster. I did not measure anything, but I think it got sligtly better .... :-\   


Title: Re: M1100/Evo Showa/Marzocchi Forks
Post by: ducpainter on September 21, 2020, 12:15:10 PM
How much difference in free length?


Title: Re: M1100/Evo Showa/Marzocchi Forks
Post by: koko64 on September 21, 2020, 02:05:57 PM
How much difference in free length?
Haven't pulled the forks apart yet. What's the limit on the difference in spring length for it to be viable?

Will try the 0.9's first I think and see how the ride quality stacks up. The bike has great front weight bias like a true sports bike, so most of my top heavy weight is over the bars.

The one fork with progressive or dual rate spring sounds like a good street bike option for bumpy mountain road riding. I note that the forks have 130mm travel which ain't bad. My Hypers 160 odd mm of fork travel was excellent on those roads.

Appreciate all the advice guys. Thanks heaps.


Title: Re: M1100/Evo Showa/Marzocchi Forks
Post by: Speeddog on September 22, 2020, 04:41:19 PM
The Ducati forks with top-out springs that I have encountered have pretty soft top-outs, so If I want to measure sag from fully and surely extended forks I do so by screwing the pre-load all the way in. As you say, that will completely squash the top-outs.

The aggro with non-parallell front axle bores .... extremely annoying. Would probably not be half as annoying, if only one had 3 hands ....

I have managed to slightly improve oval front axles by mounting them 90° (no wheel ...) and give them a good tightening. I think part reason they get oval is that they always sit in the same position on the Showas with fork-bottom adjuster. I did not measure anything, but I think it got sligtly better .... :-\   

Ducati axles are a bit too thin honestly I'd not mind hauling around another mm of thickness for much improved ruggedness.

Ducati's not great but it's heaps better than many other bikes where I need to use all 5 of my hands.
Very annoying as that means someone has to hold my beverage.

I've done dozens of Duc axles that way.
Check 'em for burrs first, and eyeball em to look for bends.
Then pinch on the 25mm diameter 90 degrees out they can be rounded up so they'll slide through the bearings.
Then do the fat end, confirm it'll slide through all.

The pinch bolts are easy to overtighten.
I've often thought that setup could do with some thin-shank bolts or M6's or something for some springiness.
Not much benefit being stronger than the axle it just crushes it.

I unwittingly dolled up a set of SS forks (I think) with black ano and SKF seals and nice valves for my S4 then realized they're short travel and they're pretty sucky.
I've got the springs and sag set good so it sits right and won't bottom.
But it's just stiff so it rides crappy.
[bang]

I forget what the forks on my 750 had, it was a lot.
The SBK cartridges and Monster legs squeezed the last mm out of it, I had to check carefully that I wasn't going to use the damper rod as a bottoming stopper.
I'll fit those to the S4 see if it'll calm it down a little.



Title: Re: M1100/Evo Showa/Marzocchi Forks
Post by: koko64 on September 22, 2020, 06:19:11 PM
Good stuff to know. It makes for a more meaningful conversation with my suspension guy. I often refer back to these posts when a suspension situation arises. It's very useful contextual knowledge and promotes informed rather than annoying questions when we discuss a job. [laugh]


Title: Re: M1100/Evo Showa/Marzocchi Forks
Post by: MonsterHPD on September 23, 2020, 01:22:18 AM
Quote

Ducati's not great but it's heaps better than many other bikes where I need to use all 5 of my hands.
Very annoying as that means someone has to hold my beverage.

 ;D

When I tighten the pinch bolts, I sort of don´t tighten them, I do them alternately a little at a time until the second in the sequence does not move more that the first one and both feel sort of nice and tight; I hope that makes sense.

Any fork with an SBK (or gsxr) cartridge will be better than a supersport fork with the crappy cartridge, but you already know my view on those ...

All Showa and Öhlins forks from the road / track bikes I´ve worked on have between 118m and 123 mm travel (with no hydralic stops). I suppose they have the same travel with the stops, but the last maybe 10 mm will be compronised by the stops.     


Title: Re: M1100/Evo Showa/Marzocchi Forks
Post by: koko64 on October 01, 2020, 04:17:02 AM
Forks needed a re-chrome after only 4000 miles.  [bang].
The hard chrome was not hard enough and in bad shape with deep stone chips that no amount of polishing could fix. My suspension guy diagnosed a poor batch of hard chroming which led to the decision to have high quality and durable hard chroming done by a respected local firm. Rechroming was half the price of new tubes. Premium seals, oil and the Ohlins 0.9kg Gixxer springs round out the package. I'm glad the Gixxer springs fit as they save $220.

Now to consider the shock.


Title: Re: M1100/Evo Showa/Marzocchi Forks
Post by: Speeddog on October 01, 2020, 08:35:58 AM
That's disappointing about the hard chrome.
Nice to have a re-chromer that is set up for forks.

I got a set rechromed for about the same cost as an aftermarket set outright.
It was a bit of an adventure but it closed the book on a refurbishment job that saw 2 sets of aftermarket tubes get rust barnacles in months.


Title: Re: M1100/Evo Showa/Marzocchi Forks
Post by: koko64 on October 01, 2020, 11:30:22 AM
Wow, two pair. I think the companies that handle industrial level hard chroming (for heavy hydraulic equipment, for example) are the go. I'm pretty sure the company here handles nation wide demand. They also did the 750 forks, for which I'm glad since it frequents dirt roads.


Title: Re: M1100/Evo Showa/Marzocchi Forks
Post by: MonsterHPD on October 01, 2020, 11:34:46 AM
If the hard  cromers do a good job, there's a good chance your fork legs will be better than new. A friends fork had the chrome worn through, and when I asked my pro friends about it, I was told that the OE hard chrome is the thinnest they can get away with. Every reason to treat your fork legs gently ....


Title: Re: M1100/Evo Showa/Marzocchi Forks
Post by: Speeddog on October 01, 2020, 03:50:14 PM
In my head I wrote the cost off as R&D but losing real money still hurts.

Fork leg refurbishment will become more common, hopefully the heavy equipment industry can continue to underwrite the repair infrastructure.

Pitted nonadjustables get replaced with good adjustables if at all possible.


Title: Re: M1100/Evo Showa/Marzocchi Forks
Post by: koko64 on October 01, 2020, 06:32:25 PM
In my head I wrote the cost off as R&D but losing real money still hurts.

Fork leg refurbishment will become more common, hopefully the heavy equipment industry can continue to underwrite the repair infrastructure.

Pitted nonadjustables get replaced with good adjustables if at all possible.
Note to self, rechroming will be better than brand new oem.
If I ever do a scrambler type fork mod again it'll be with Showa and not Marzocchi, that's for sure.


Title: Re: M1100/Evo Showa/Marzocchi Forks
Post by: booger on October 27, 2020, 10:10:10 AM
I sent my forks out ;D

Do NOT want to fuss with the rebuilding, shim stack this fluid level that. I rebuilt my mtn bike forks once and hated every minute of it. I have the grey S4R Testa which came with Showa adjustable forks.

Traxxion has them right now, installing an AK20 cartridge and anodizing the outer tubes grey. Inner tubes are getting TiN. I asked if I could get red TiN and never heard back. So I might assume they are going to be gold.

I tried for years to find some factory Ohlins or even some road & track forks they used to make. Nope and nope. 50% on the bay are S2R800 forks that people are asking $600 for. They cite the new part price from Ducati to justify their used price knowing full well the forks are garbage to begin with. Thusly there are forks on the bay that have been there for years unsold with zero watchers.

Question for Speeddog - are the M1100 Showa forks the same as what was used on the S4RT from the factory? They look the same.


Title: Re: M1100/Evo Showa/Marzocchi Forks
Post by: koko64 on October 27, 2020, 05:03:24 PM
Note to self, rechroming will be better than brand new oem.
If I ever do a scrambler type fork mod again it'll be with Showa and not Marzocchi, that's for sure.
Purely because the Showas are easy to pull apart and reassemble while the M forks are often staked in place. Showas are much cheaper to work on labour wise.


Title: Re: M1100/Evo Showa/Marzocchi Forks
Post by: koko64 on November 27, 2020, 07:59:18 PM
Forks are back and fitted. A turn less preload and a 1/2 turn more rebound damping feels good. Of course whenever you do work at one end the other end feels like crap.


Title: Re: M1100/Evo Showa/Marzocchi Forks
Post by: koko64 on December 13, 2020, 02:30:20 AM
Update.

The fork builder, Dontune, got the inner preload so close with the spacer length that I only used one turn of preload on the external adjusters, Edit: make that no turns out, the internal preload is spot on. With 0.92 springs for my 200lbs sans gear I ended up with rebound 1/4 turn out from max and compression damping 2 1/4 out. Oem damping was rebound 1 turn out and compression 1&1/2 turns out. The heavier spring gave me support with little preload and minimal comp damping for bumpy roads but needed more rebound to keep things tied down.

Very happy.

I can feel the budget nature of the Sachs shock and I'm running just one extra click of damping with 20mm spring preload from fully unloaded spring. Oem damping is 8 clicks out. I like 6 but it's harsh so have compromised at 7. I so want to seperate the rebound from the compression damping.

What I love about this bike is it's tiny, weighs nothing, has razor sharp steering, has 916 hp and 1098 torque.


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