Ducati Monster Forum

Moto Board => Tech => Topic started by: d3vi@nt on August 16, 2020, 10:30:50 AM



Title: Patching a hole in the engine cover
Post by: d3vi@nt on August 16, 2020, 10:30:50 AM
I'm not sure exactly how, or when this happened, but that's another story.

I'm wondering what folks' thoughts are on JB Weld for this spot. I've never used it before and am not sure how I feel about it. I understand that prep is critical.

I've also not found any good videos on patching a hole like this. Most patches have some backing intact to keep the stuff in place. I feel like I'd just be jamming a bunch of goop into an open hole without much to support it and only edges to adhere to.

Pic here (I hope):

https://photos.app.goo.gl/q5wqMjRtMUxL94oX8 (https://photos.app.goo.gl/q5wqMjRtMUxL94oX8)


Title: Re: Patching a hole in the engine case
Post by: ducpainter on August 16, 2020, 10:39:57 AM
It's difficult to tell from your photo...how large is the hole?

As far as JB Weld...it will definitely work if you can clean the area sufficiently, rough up the surrounding area to ensure adhesion, and somehow keep the epoxy from running off the area or into the cases.

Just a thought, but some putty stuffed into the crack/hole might keep the epoxy from running inside. As far as running off...and I'm serious...hang the bike from the rear wheel. Alternatively, a dam made with tape might work.

You want to use the original JB Weld...not the quick.


Title: Re: Patching a hole in the engine case
Post by: d3vi@nt on August 16, 2020, 11:11:19 AM
It's difficult to tell from your photo...how large is the hole?

As far as JB Weld...it will definitely work if you can clean the area sufficiently, rough up the surrounding area to ensure adhesion, and somehow keep the epoxy from running off the area or into the cases.

Just a thought, but some putty stuffed into the crack/hole might keep the epoxy from running inside. As far as running off...and I'm serious...hang the bike from the rear wheel. Alternatively, a dam made with tape might work.

You want to use the original JB Weld...not the quick.
The hole is about 1/2" at its widest and not quite 1" long. I'm not sure if there's supposed to be gasket there between the case and the cover, either.

I thought about using JB Weld to stick a small plate on the inside as backing and then putty over it once cured. The thought of the plate potentially letting go inside the case gives me pause.


Title: Re: Patching a hole in the engine case
Post by: ducpainter on August 16, 2020, 11:39:15 AM
The cover uses 3 bond type sealer. Ducati didn't use a gasket. I see better now what's broken. It isn't the case, but the alternator cover.

If done correctly the plate won't fall off.

You can likely find a used cover on ebay for not too much.

What size motor?


Title: Re: Patching a hole in the case cover
Post by: d3vi@nt on August 16, 2020, 12:00:11 PM
Thanks for the replies.

It's a 1200 ('13 MTS). Yes, you're correct --it is the cover. I corrected the title.

Undamaged ones seem scarce. There's one on e-bay for $220, but it's for the 10-12 model. That part was superseded, but no idea why.

I think if I were to remove it, I'd just have it welded. My hope to avoid that project is conflicting with my better judgement to have it repaired properly.


Title: Re: Patching a hole in the engine case
Post by: ducpainter on August 16, 2020, 12:09:39 PM
If you have it welded, you'd also have to have the sealing surface machined flat. You'd be getting close to the cost of a used one at that point. A sheet metal/epoxy repair could be filed flat pretty easily.

There are other sources for used parts besides ebay. I've used Ducati Depot in the past, and I'm sure there are others that don't have every item they have listed on ebay. Did you price a new one?



Title: Re: Patching a hole in the engine case
Post by: d3vi@nt on August 16, 2020, 02:13:57 PM
Hmm. Well... seems in order to get a good repair, I'm going to have to take it off anyway. I never found the piece(s) of metal. With my luck, it's probably temporarily lodged in the case, waiting for the opportune moment (e.g. middle of nowhere) to drop.

The new OEM part is around $952.

Been searching other sources, but not finding much. If I was sure the superseded 10-12 cover would fit, I'd have more options.


Title: Re: Patching a hole in the engine case
Post by: Buhgaboo on August 16, 2020, 06:30:20 PM
JB weld is some otherworldly stuff...watch some project farm YouTube videos and you will be a convert...leave it in place...clean it with brake cleaner...mix the jb weld and brush it into the nooks and crannies...let the remainder begin to setup and just plop it into the void once it holds it's shape...that part of the case isn't under any pressure or undue stress...you are literally making a plug...jb weld will hold...there isn't any rotating body immediately around that area and if there is or it becomes in contact with one, it will file it away on its own...

Clean it...cake it...start it up after it's set...then let it be until it's cured...I think you will be fine


Title: Re: Patching a hole in the engine case
Post by: ducpainter on August 17, 2020, 02:51:52 AM
Hmm. Well... seems in order to get a good repair, I'm going to have to take it off anyway. I never found the piece(s) of metal. With my luck, it's probably temporarily lodged in the case, waiting for the opportune moment (e.g. middle of nowhere) to drop.

The new OEM part is around $952.

Been searching other sources, but not finding much. If I was sure the superseded 10-12 cover would fit, I'd have more options.
The price for new is entirely stupid.

I agree with buhgaboo in that JB weld is amazing, but I'd take the cover off to repair it.


Title: Re: Patching a hole in the engine case
Post by: He Man on August 17, 2020, 03:44:58 AM
had a hole about half the size in the same case. I JB welded as a temporary fix and was intending on a solder repair later in the future but i rode my motorcycle like that for about 4 years before i blew the entire engine out for unrelated reasons. It'll work if you do it properly!


Title: Re: Patching a hole in the engine case
Post by: pitbull on August 17, 2020, 04:26:33 AM
Yeah, I would also take the cover off to repair it. Fill in the gap with JB weld and take your time sanding it down flush, checking frequently with a short, steel ruler or some similar straight edge.

You could then take your time looking for a used cover for a decent price on ebay.


FWIW, I've patched two holes on two different monster 900's from broken chains. Both were on crashed monsters I picked up cheap and rebuilt. The JB weld filled holes were fine and never leaked.

In my case I replaced the stator side case cover as they're cheap on eba and patched the main engine case in the manner described above. Both bike were ridden for several thousand miles after with no issue or leaks.


(https://brettmccallum.smugmug.com/Mandies-Monster/n-jzWcW5/i-xKDtDkX/A)

(https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-8rM39zB/0/77907862/M/i-8rM39zB-M.jpg)

(https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-xKDtDkX/0/85c6660f/M/i-xKDtDkX-M.jpg)


Title: Re: Patching a hole in the engine case
Post by: pitbull on August 17, 2020, 04:33:02 AM
I should add, in the second picture I added a little thin aluminum patch to help me line up a straight edge on the outside of the case. I did it on one and not the other and it didn't make much of a difference and I don't think it adds much protection.

I should just by a case saver.


Title: Re: Patching a hole in the engine case
Post by: Speeddog on August 17, 2020, 08:35:30 AM
My reference says that '10-'15 MTS1200 alt covers are all the same.

IMO
Take the cover off.
The aggro of working on that part while it is still on the bike is not worth the time saved by not removing it.
Even at the same time investment, it's so much better to know you've got it clean and done the best possible repair you could.

The normal JB is about like maybe creamy peanut butter on a hot day.
So needs dams.

I'd apply one layer of masking tape to the mating surface of the cover, and slap it up against a piece of glass.
That'll give you a bit of material to final finish.
Orient the glass vertical, and the cover rotated ~135 CCW so that area is up.
Use tape for a backer on the inside, butter it up and let it cure overnight, then bake it in direct sun for the day.



Title: Re: Patching a hole in the engine case
Post by: DuciD03 on August 17, 2020, 01:11:39 PM
JB weld is amazing stuff; Ive used it on several metal repairs; I think the cases are vacuum cast aluminum with silica as a filler / hardener (some are magnesium).

I used the jb with metal; there's also the putty; in thinking this one through, the way id do it is;

… take off case, as you identified; its oily & dirty, specially where the damage is located; 1st clean whole case with WD 40 to cut and lift oil (asides any bushings or bearings); then clean with dove detergent in hot water and stiff nylon brush;  clean again with dove detergent again in hot water; rinse in hot water, the case casting can be porous and absorb oil, then use break cleaner; then id gently heat to see if any oil seeped out; file, remove surface finish, and roughen to bare metal around outer edge of hole, both sides, removing any surface finish; then reclean with break cleaner … but Duc painter would maybe know more.

Once your case is super clean Id build a thin dam with the JB putty, holds and sets fast; building the dam so jb metal can be applied beyond hole on both sides, (and maybe aluminum sheet) then fill that in with the JB metal, leaving slightly high on the mating surface and as its curing Id install while still pliable; maybe while the bikes still warm … then let it cure for specified time; then remove go back and gently shape and do a surface finish to match the rest of the case, or refinish the whole case.

reinstall with gasket sealer as mentioned above … all is doable, but time consuming to do it right. let us know what you did with a pic or 2.

An aside, local duc mechanic recommends "Devcon" but is had to get and super expensive; JB should work.

Cheers  [Dolph]


Title: Re: Patching a hole in the engine case
Post by: Buhgaboo on August 17, 2020, 04:52:18 PM
JbWeld... it's all in the timing...it doesn't flash over into a solid...there's a good 20 minute window where you can shape it and mold it...do a small amount and play with it...than do a larger amount and fill the void..sure taking the cover off will allow you to sand it down and really mimic the casting...but in this instance...I think it's a touch overkill...painting the perimeter will allow for a real good seal ...then wait...and then using the remainder at a silly putty consistency to fill the void...godspeed


Title: Re: Patching a hole in the engine case
Post by: d3vi@nt on August 17, 2020, 06:56:07 PM
Wow. Awesome. Thanks for all the replies, I really appreciate it.

I've committed to taking the cover off. Mostly because I still don't know where the broken pieces ended up, but also to be sure I can get it clean and, as speeddog mentioned, is a bit of a PITA to get to.

@speeddog; '10-'12 part was 24220901BC, superseded by part 24221092AC starting MY '13 and same for '14.

'15 went to part 24221321A which was superseded by 24221322A.

Seems like '10-'14 should be good, but I'm wondering if '15 is a no-go? I'd be really curious to know if there's any real differences in the part, besides the number.

Thanks again, all.



Title: Re: Patching a hole in the engine cover
Post by: d3vi@nt on September 05, 2020, 06:45:22 PM
I finally got the cover pulled and cleaned up. Not too bad --more work removing plastics, draining coolant and removing hoses than anything. Cover came off without to much protest.

There are a couple of sets of bearings in the cover; two for the water pump assembly and one for the stator.

Anyone have any ideas how long these last? They seem to spin without issues. The bike is getting close to 40k miles. I'm wondering if these are the 'last forever' kind, or replace early kind?


Title: Re: Patching a hole in the engine cover
Post by: d3vi@nt on September 13, 2020, 05:52:43 PM
Funny thing, as I was about to put it back on, I noticed the part number: 24231031A

Looks like it's from a '14 Streetfigher or '15 Hyper.

I'm the second owner and I have no idea if it came that way from the factory, or if it was replaced at some point.

As far as patching, I was able to clamp a piece of plastic (typical rewards/grocery type card; smooth plastic) on the inside, and another against the case edge, which I was most worried about as it's the mating surface. It filled in well with the JB Weld and the plastic clamped to the edge kept the surface nice and even. I touched it up with a second round after it cured for a few days.

I was worried about sticking, so tried wrapping the backing pieces in plastic wrap, but I couldn't keep the wrinkles out, which made for a poor surface. Turns out the plastic cards without wrap didn't stick any way, so wasn't an issue.

The outside doesn't look great, was more difficult as there are curved edges, etc. I could sand it down and paint it if I really cared, but it's back by the sprocket and won't be visible any way.

Got the cover back on; finger tight bolts, wait an hour, then final torque. Will button up the rest hopefully some time this week and see if it holds oil!


Title: Re: Patching a hole in the engine cover
Post by: Speeddog on September 13, 2020, 10:06:55 PM
Part number in a casting or forging is usually the 'blank' number, it will get used for multiple different finished parts.
Seldom a 'valid' part#.

JB is some pretty nice stuff, it gets way better with a day baking in the sun (it may get there after a week sitting at normal room temp, I don't know)


Title: Re: Patching a hole in the engine cover
Post by: d3vi@nt on September 14, 2020, 04:37:35 PM
Ah, interesting. Thanks for that info, makes sense.


Title: Re: Patching a hole in the engine cover
Post by: ducpainter on September 15, 2020, 11:58:06 AM
<snip>                             

JB is some pretty nice stuff, it gets way better with a day baking in the sun (it may get there after a week sitting at normal room temp, I don't know)

Any heat will speed the full cure, but it will fully cure even at cool temps


Title: Re: Patching a hole in the engine cover
Post by: booger on October 27, 2020, 09:38:03 AM
My choices:

1) Replace with a used part. Why dick around with JB Weld though it is very useful stuff.
2) Bernzomatic no-weld aluminum rods to fill, then lap on a piece of float glass. Touch up the outside with a Dremel.
3) New cover
4) JB Weld. Though it's very handy, not the caliber of repair I'm willing to employ on my Ducati, so it's in 4th place. The '13 MTS is a nice bike! Deserves better than JB Weld.


Title: Re: Patching a hole in the engine cover
Post by: d3vi@nt on October 27, 2020, 02:26:04 PM
My choices:

1) Replace with a used part. Why dick around with JB Weld though it is very useful stuff.
2) Bernzomatic no-weld aluminum rods to fill, then lap on a piece of float glass. Touch up the outside with a Dremel.
3) New cover
4) JB Weld. Though it's very handy, not the caliber of repair I'm willing to employ on my Ducati, so it's in 4th place. The '13 MTS is a nice bike! Deserves better than JB Weld.
It ended up being a fairly simple decision matrix. Used parts were questionable for fitment (different part #'s, etc.), around $300 and up, and usually had some rash, scratches, etc. I have no welding skills or tools and don't know anybody that does, nor anyone that could recommend one locally. New cover was close to $1k with tax and shipping.

The hole was in an area that's not visible and at a high point, so not constantly sitting in oil and not in a spot that would seem to impact structural integrity.

I paid $5k for the bike, and given its 40K miles, resale value is probably about the same. Given the clutch MC issues I'm having, coupled with the now frequent fuel sender errors (known issue with 6 part revisions), I'm not so enamored with the bike that I'm willing to shell out for expensive fixes.

So far the JB is holding fine. Time will tell whether I made a bad decision (or bad repair)  [beer]


Title: Re: Patching a hole in the engine cover
Post by: booger on October 28, 2020, 08:47:10 AM
I paid $5k for the bike, and given its 40K miles

How did you find a bike like that for $5k?  [Dolph]


Title: Re: Patching a hole in the engine cover
Post by: d3vi@nt on October 28, 2020, 09:31:42 AM
How did you find a bike like that for $5k?  [Dolph]
It had 31k on the clock and was overdue for its 30k Desmo service. So in reality I paid $6k for it given that expense.

The PO said his local dealer that did all the maintenance on it would give him $4k for it in trade so he figured he'd sell it for $5k. He listed it on CL with no pics and it was located a bit off the beaten path. Coupled with high miles that tend to scare some folks, I'm sure it didn't generate much interest.


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