Ducati Monster Forum

As some of you might know, my first Ducati was a Monster 900, bought almost new in 2002. As I got hooked on track day riding, it got more and more track-day oriented mods, and at some point it was no longer a very good street bike.

(https://c7.staticflickr.com/9/8417/30333816526_c1108c9b43_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/NduJQE)DSC_0566 (https://flic.kr/p/NduJQE) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

So, in 2008 I bought an ST4s to use as a basis for an ST2-motored track day bike. Seemed like a not too-bad idea at the time, since chassis-wise everything I´d made or aquired for the Monster would fit, and the ST2-motor could be made a little stronger than the 900, and most motor components would also fit both ways.
In parallel with this, my wife decided she´d take a drivers license for bikes, so after some deliberation I bought a Monster 800 Dark in 2005, for which much of the same parts would also fit.
As is so often the case, life got in the way with house projects, kids school, work, …. So this is how far the ST2 project got before it was canceleled:

(https://c4.staticflickr.com/6/5819/29737333443_4e8b123ee9_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/MiMBcz)P2220007 (https://flic.kr/p/MiMBcz) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

While visiting a friend, who was building a 749R / Hym 1100 / Radical project, it turned out he was in much the same situation; his project had also sort of petered out, and after not too much haggling, I was the proud owner of a barely-running project with a lot of potential.

(https://c5.staticflickr.com/8/7721/30072154460_b885b89b1e_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/MPnDPJ)P5100020 (https://flic.kr/p/MPnDPJ) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

Since my wifes riding plans also more or less petered out, and since my 900 was mostly in track day trim, I´d taken to riding the 800 more and more, and found it more and more enjoyable. After fixing the worst glitches (suspension and exhaust), it´s actually an enormously fun little bike to ride, even on track days, and I can´t recommend the Bridgestone S20 tyres highly enough.

(https://c3.staticflickr.com/8/7718/26580812930_dd32115465_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/GuRBC7)P5060034 (https://flic.kr/p/GuRBC7) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

Well, so much for background.  As you will see, also half-finished projects means a lo of work, and a lot of money. The only marginally cost-effective way to get performance is to buy it from the manufacturer, in form of one of the very competent sports bikes available these days. Boring as that would be.   

More to follow, but it´s time to hit the bed now.

Subscribed [thumbsup].

 [popcorn]

 [popcorn]

Well,
this thread will be a little back and forth along the timeline.

The Carillo rods arrived recently, so I had to split the spare motor to get at the crank, all now on their way for balancing.

Rodswise, Ducati claimed the following upon introduction of the DS motor:

The 94mm pistons are linked to the crankshaft with new connecting rods, made from a new material composition (30NiCrMo4) that has exceptional flow characteristics during forging. This allows Ducati engineers to design a more optimal shape to the connecting rod cross section because of the consistent and flaw-free characteristics of the new material during the forging process. In cross section, the new rod is thinner side-to-side, but wider fore-to-aft (a more advanced I-beam) which is stronger and lighter for increased reliability and performance. Additionally, the rods have been mechanically and chemically surface stress relieved resulting in a smoother and imperfection-free surface for higher reliability and strength.

Be that as it may be, digging out all rod versions I have:

(https://c1.staticflickr.com/6/5739/29935721224_64c676eece_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/MBjoYy)20161025_174900 (https://flic.kr/p/MBjoYy) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

From left to right:

Autoverdi (398.5 g)
Carillo (418.5 g)
HYM 1100 (490.0 g)
M / ST / SS (494.5 g)

Interestingly, the Autoverdi is even lighter than the CArillo, and I was slightly surprised at the very slender-looking small end of the Carillo rod. To some extent, it may be appearance deceiving the eye, since they are differently designed:

(https://c8.staticflickr.com/6/5499/29933427863_dba4f69131_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/MB7DeR)20161025_175244 (https://flic.kr/p/MB7DeR) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

Presumably, Carillo knows what they are doing  :)



 

 

Thanks for the update. What are you going to do with your other projects?

Well,
I don´t really know what to do with them. On the other hand, there aren´t really that many. I´d like to test out the ST motor, so sooner or later that will end up in the rain bike. I thought the 80K or so km motor currently in the rain bike was about to give up, but we´re servicing that right now and it seems healthy enough.

For the M800, I´ll probably leave that pretty much alone. For some reason, they seem to work well enough like that ..... but I will fix the rear, and make some footpegs that won´t drag my feet all the time. Should not affect reliability that much, I suppose ....

As for the current project, the Pistal hi-comp pistons also arrived some time ago, and Pistals always look nice:

(https://c1.staticflickr.com/6/5762/30284215600_af01b2d19e_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/N97wdh)20161025_203025 (https://flic.kr/p/N97wdh) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

(https://c7.staticflickr.com/6/5684/30284214150_4e4d17aac4_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/N97vMh)20161025_203100 (https://flic.kr/p/N97vMh) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

(https://c2.staticflickr.com/9/8626/29949675313_f28770d259_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/MCxV3i)20161025_203231 (https://flic.kr/p/MCxV3i) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

The stock piston with rings and pin is 457.5 g, the Pistal is 434 g, not really that much in it weightwise.   

The crank would be a prime candidate for a lightening action, but I decided to leave it, apart from balancing. I forgot to weight the crank, but it´s not light.

(https://c1.staticflickr.com/6/5680/30547307296_65e6e694b4_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/NxmWd1)20161024_193948 (https://flic.kr/p/NxmWd1) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

Cool.
What compression ratio are those Pistals?

I have no idea, really. The Pistal catalogue only says "xx mm hi comp" etc. I'll check stock and Pistal when I get them back from the balancing.

In order to keep the motor as cool as possible, I´ll use double oil coolers, so I need to fabricate ned cooler mounts (again ...).

Can´t help but wonder how much clearance there should be between front wheel on full bump and motor / cooler etc:

(https://c4.staticflickr.com/6/5658/30739977915_ba3399e173_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/NQoqte)20161102_205239 (https://flic.kr/p/NQoqte) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

There´s even some travel left in the forks .....

(https://c6.staticflickr.com/6/5582/30739979365_797ac45763_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/NQoqUe)20161102_205227 (https://flic.kr/p/NQoqUe) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

... but Ducati also don´t seem to be too particular about clearance on full bounce, this is the travel stop:

(https://c8.staticflickr.com/6/5612/30739974215_dbd1ea7f50_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/NQopnr)20161102_205326 (https://flic.kr/p/NQopnr) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

It´s not a Duc fender, but I don´t think it´s taking up any more space than a duc one.

Any ideas on clearance, someone?
   

^^^ Feeler gauge clearance. ;).

I'd say at least 1/2" at full bump.

Yeah you gotta allow for tyre growth and fork flex. You dont want to get black flagged for a shattered guard or ruptured oil cooler.

Especially not  a ruptured oil cooler .... so back to the drawing board.

What's the best source of oil cooler hoses and fittings;  preferrably in Europe?

To clarify, at least 1/2" between the tire and any hard parts.

Business card between the fender and triple is fine.  ;D

One of the main projects over last winter was a ne exhaust. The one that came with the bike was custom made, but not very well suited to track riding and also had a few constrained sections:

(https://c3.staticflickr.com/6/5690/30657543362_60c4794c04_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/NH6VxQ)HPD_R 1100 (https://flic.kr/p/NH6VxQ) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

Luckily, my pal has a TIG welder that is first rate. For me as a welder, it´s mainly on-the-job training; I am now reasonably confident i will not just burn a hole, but those beautiful welds of the experts I can only dream of.

Anyway; I wanted a 2-1 system, mainly because I like them, partly because I had one silencer, and partly because that´s what fits on a bike, leaving the chain easy to reach etc.
Header diameter is 43 mm inside, and both headers are roughly the same length, chosen based on experience and reasonably accepted rules-of-thumb. As an amateur, that´s about as far as you come, design wise.

Unfortunately,the rear exhaust more or less collides with the suspension linkage, so it´s not an ideal design but not much alternative:

(https://c8.staticflickr.com/6/5535/30774482255_6042531f35_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/NTrgpD)PC290025 (https://flic.kr/p/NTrgpD) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

Also, it´s not easy to get the 2-1 junction at the same length of both headers and not hitting something, like swing arm as it moves. I think a deep-sump block would have made this a little easier:

(https://c8.staticflickr.com/6/5465/30774448975_94bcbff359_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/NTr6vR)P3250005 (https://flic.kr/p/NTr6vR) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

In the end, it came out OK, with some ugly welds, but nothing has broken or cracked during the season:

(https://c1.staticflickr.com/6/5656/30737816096_17b5773344_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/NQckQu)P4120020 (https://flic.kr/p/NQckQu) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

It turned out to be a major job, and caused some aquisitions (like a tube cutter and a belt flat grinder), and I have learned that when TIG welding thin-wall tubing, joint preparation is absolutely vital. Any amount of time saved by preparation short-cuts is payed tenfold in welding and correcting time. Of course, using inert gas on the inside of the weld is also very important as stainless gets very ugly on the inside otherwise; the welding is also easier.   



       

 [thumbsup]
Tricky job.

Wow!   I applaud you.  I'm scared of even standard welding!

One other big job was fixing the wiring. With the bike came 2 HYM wiring looms (luckily, as it proved, more on that later). Since theHYM is a much bigger bike than the 749, and since a lot of functions are not needed on a track bike, there were some left-overs:

(https://c6.staticflickr.com/8/7463/27328382493_91a6f6272c_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/HCV71v)20160623_220838 (https://flic.kr/p/HCV71v) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

A lot of wires have been removed, and all wires into the ECU or instrument connectors were removed completely. Even so, quite a bit remained:

(https://c5.staticflickr.com/6/5560/30838065756_cea724d148_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/NZ49yU)P5290041 (https://flic.kr/p/NZ49yU) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

After a lot of trimming, this is what remained:

(https://c8.staticflickr.com/6/5625/30785937471_e951a8136f_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/NUrYDn)20160623_213802 (https://flic.kr/p/NUrYDn) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

There was quite a bit of work necessary to establish exactly what could be removed and what could not, and as I learned the motor will not start without the iunstrument connected. The wiring diagram does not actually show this, but 2 of the wires between ECU and instrument are also CAN communication lines, and without these the motor won´t start. If I remember correctly,  just connecting the 2 pins won´t work, and adding the customary 120 Ohm resisitors to the CAN pins also does not work. With the instrument, it´s fine.

Incidentally, the wiring diagram in the Ducati HYM workshop manual has an error; the CAN lines goes directly from ECU to instrument, with only a branch-0ff to the data recording connector. Since I was not going to use this, I removed them, and the bike, as mentioned, would not start. Upon re-installing as per wiring diagram, it still would not start. After much head-scratching, I finally found ot that the wires were crossed-over in the diagram. After switching - over in the ECU connector, the bike started again. This took quite a while to figure out ...
     
The ECU is on rubber mounts on the valve cover, Monster style, I´m a bit concerned vibrations and heat may be too much anyway. Time will show, if anyone has info on this, it´s welcome.  

      

  

is the fact that the bike wont start without the gauge related to the immobilizer? 

I've flashed my ECU to ignore the immobilizer and run the bike gauge-less with no wiring mod, just unplugged it.

Thats a lot of spaghetti removed.

No.
More info later,  party time right now  [drink]

 [beer] [shot] [drink] [wine].
Enjoy, you've worked hard.

Thank you very much; I did, and my head is starting to clear again ... [coffee]

As a matter of fact, in the post I got a little ahead of events; it was still in the dry test stage and the motor was not started. With the 2 CAN lines correctly connected, the starter would turn the engine; with the CAN lines crossed, or without the instrument, the starter circuit was completely dead. There was an error message on the instrument, indicating a CAN line error.

The engine was run last summer with a stock wiring harness and the same ECU, so it wa only by finally comparing last years loom with the one I had modified I finally identified the error in the Ducati HYM wiring diagram

The immo function was already de-activated as I ran the bike last summer, and was not touched over winter.

One thing that is often overlooked when doing or planing a project is all the little things you need toorganize and fabricate:  Brackets, spacers, etc, as well as finding a place for all the little thigs needed to make a bike out of the collection of parts you have. A few examples:

Ignition coilis:
(https://c7.staticflickr.com/6/5322/30655762630_f54895efbf_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/NGWNcy)20161113_151058 (https://flic.kr/p/NGWNcy) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

Rectifier:
(https://c6.staticflickr.com/6/5532/25321577269_9f99cb0f94_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/EzzGJr)20161113_151032 (https://flic.kr/p/EzzGJr) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

Oil cooler(s); this is version #2, will have to be a version #3 which I hope will be OK. I also need some hoses for this installation. Any suggestions?
(https://c7.staticflickr.com/6/5644/30603716822_3ed4538bc6_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/NCm3N3)20161027_201239 (https://flic.kr/p/NCm3N3) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

Subframe and battery box; since I did not want to use the 749 / 999 toaster silencer, the subframe needed modifying; again, I´m not proud for the welding but at least it has not fallen apart:
(https://c4.staticflickr.com/8/7373/27391125171_51cb37d583_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/HJsFdP)20160604_195900 (https://flic.kr/p/HJsFdP) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

The seat is for a Triumph 675, chosen just because I liked the looks, originally for the terminated ST2 project. I have no idea about working with plastics, but my mate Thomas has and helped me with the cut-out for the silencer:
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/6/5635/30840835672_92b5b5c2c6_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/NZikY5)20161113_151200 (https://flic.kr/p/NZikY5) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

I´m looking for a top / half fairing that will reasonably match the seat unit, but have so far found nothing. Suggestions are welcome.

With all the stuff, big and small, that needed to be done before the bike was ready to run again, time was running out and I missed the first couple of track days, using (again ...) the rainy track day SSie900 as a back up.

Around midsummer, the time had come for the first start. Having fixed the CAN issue, I was not too worried but it still is an exciting moment when the first start-up is about to take place. Pressing the starter button produced the familiar rumble so I was pretty happy. That was about to change, however, after about 20 seconds roof-high flames erupted on the other side of the bike. After a few moments of disbelief, I realized i had to get the bike out of the garage at all cost, so ran around and jerked the bike off the pit stand. In doing so, I lost balance and dropped the bike away from me; it landed on the garage stool, next to the half-empty gas canister I´d just filled a few litres of gas into the bike tank from. Looking around the garage, I grabbed a few of the daughters horse blankets I´m usually griping abiout but felt real happy about on the occasion, and managed to put the fire out. When the smoke had cleared, this is what the scene looked like:

(https://c7.staticflickr.com/8/7626/27311383214_40510801db_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/HBpYHu)20160625_190105 (https://flic.kr/p/HBpYHu) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

The fire lasted maybe 20 to 30 seconds, and never really caught, but still managed to destroy or damage quite a lot of stuff; mainly my new wiring loom and new K&N filters. It also blacked an incredible amount of frame and other stuff, and the garaged stinked for days. It also destroyed the horse blankets, for me that was a fair price to pay, I´m not so sure about the girls ....

Anyway, some carnage:

(https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5446/30868550881_c3cf524a66_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/P2KoJv)20160626_112756 (https://flic.kr/p/P2KoJv) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

(https://c7.staticflickr.com/8/7390/27662496510_1ed156bcc3_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/J9rwt1)20160626_142810 (https://flic.kr/p/J9rwt1) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

(https://c1.staticflickr.com/8/7580/27644944960_ab15c24d2b_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/J7Tz15)20160626_172335 (https://flic.kr/p/J7Tz15) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

I had "Scuderia Carbonara" scribbled in the soot on the belly pan; it´s mostly worn off by now.

I now believe the cause was brake cleaner spay I had used a short while before I started the bike, on the oil cooler and hoses, some probably ended up on th front header and maybe pooled in the belly pan. When the header heated up the brake cleaner ignited and set off the fire.  

Having escaped this potential catastroph with most things intact, (and an intact house ...) I now take the fire hazard more serious than ever: I have a 6 kg CO2 extinguisher and a fire blanket in the garage (powder is more effective, but will destroy anything it gets close), I never do a first start in the far end of the garage, and certainly not with the bike hung from the roof as it often is when I´m working on it, and I´m very careful with the brake cleaner.
 
We also always bring a fire extinguisher and fire blanket in the track day trailer.

Also, I was lucky when I dropped the bike; any "high" object, like a bike or a person, burns from the bottom up. Laying it down will make it much easier to extinguish. Except for bikes maybe sleaking gas from the tank .... to the stool was maybe the saviour in this case.  

I can only urge you to learn from this. If you haven´t seen it, you would not believe how narrow the time window is when you can still put out a fire.    
          

 :o
Glad you minimized the damage.
Horse blanket = fire blanket ;D

Sad news indeed.  But the bike survives!!!

Lucky escape ... Yes, good advise not to do first time starts in the garage. I made that mistake when I rebuilt/first started my old Triumph Thunderbird, tickled the carb and kicked it over without the airfilter, it coughed back and erupted in flames. Good fortune was on my side and it escaped with some burnt wiring and a toasted side panel, it could have turned out very badly. Always kept a man sized  extinguisher from a garage forecourt in the garage since that disaster ... Tasty looking bike  [thumbsup]

Well, glad you got away with nothing more than a scare ... as I did. British bikes and wiring is a topic all of its own I believe, fire or no fire :-)

Since gasoline, or diesel, is such a commodity, one tends to forget the destructive potential of just a bike tankful of gas, should it end up somewhere where it should not be, and meet with something ignite-ive.

I try to keep this in mind; at least that imroves the odds.
 

I´ve just sent the crank / Carillos / Pistals off to the Crank Man for balancing, and when I get them back (eventually ...) I need to get the Carillos properly attached to the crank. My experience on mounting con rods is purely car and very old. What´s your best tips on assembling the conrods, and how to get the correct bearing clearances?

I will of course check the Duc workshop manual, but shurely there´s a lot of experience out there, and I´d like to get this right first time .... your advice would be most appreciated.   

Although you are very skilled, I would consider having the bottom end put together by an expert who will shim up the bottom end and gear box to track specs and finish the top end yourself. You will have plenty of other work to do I'm sure.:) But that's just me.

             ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
                   This!

Ducati bottom ends have a fair amount of black art associated with them.

Well, you flatter me by sayaing I´m skilled, but basically it´s mostly a matter of finding decent info, and letting things take the time they take. One should also no forget that mostly things that went well will end up in a forum thread like this one, the screw-ups tends to get less publicized  :-[ 

Anyway, I´ve actually already made a couple of bottom ends, with the help of some advice from Brad Black, and a lot of time. It was my plan to write a manual for myself and next time, when I had the process in fresh memory, which I of ourse did not do .... but getting the shimming set-up pretty OK is not so much black magic, really. I´ll put some info in this post as I go, and we´ll see if you find that rerasonable.

But I have so far not made the big ends, so any advice on that would be much appreciated.   

+1

The last bottom end rebuild I did was a '78 Corona [laugh]

Well, memory deteriorates with age, so I´ve had to ponder this for a few days before I could say too much about lower end assembly. When I was in the process of building my track-ST2 motor, I discovered more metal on the magnet plug than I really liked, so eventually I ended up with the motor completely disassembled. I found nothing amiss, but I ended up assembling 2 motors in pretty short succession.

Since I had an ST2 disassembled at the same time, and since the M900 has a close-ratio gearbox and the ST a wide-ratio one, I decided to swap sine I never liked the close-ratio for the street. So I had 2 lower ends I had to assemble.

At the same time, my mate was also assembling lower ends, so it turned out to be a bit of a common do-and-learn thing, with the odd advice kindly provided by Brad Black. In the end, it´s not so much a black art as patience and some proper tools (and some proper advice).    

Many years ago, I read an article by Kevin Cameron in Cycle Magazine, where he described a cure for hard-to-shift gearboxes:  …. Set a few hours aside, dissemble your motor …. And gearbox …. And lap the gear dog end faces ….”. I always wanted to test this, so I did it when everything was in pieces anyway.  

(https://c3.staticflickr.com/6/5535/31200995466_a187a42296_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/Px8fVG)DSC_0191 (https://flic.kr/p/Px8fVG) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

(https://c5.staticflickr.com/6/5492/31201173916_f64f5ed3e8_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/Px9aYq)Dogslipning01 (https://flic.kr/p/Px9aYq) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

(https://c3.staticflickr.com/6/5447/30415769914_f10938a73c_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/NkJLJ7)Dogslipning2 (https://flic.kr/p/NkJLJ7) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

As always, some learning is done the hard way, especially when you do things you knbow will not end well, and do them anyway …. Always use the right sort of pliers for the locating rings; some parts of the shaft are very brittle:

(https://c3.staticflickr.com/6/5348/31092835322_e37ac0d1b9_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/PnyUFC)Utgående axel (https://flic.kr/p/PnyUFC) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

There are quite a few shims needed to get it right; it helps that my mate has a small flat grinder

(https://c6.staticflickr.com/6/5786/30429903133_a18dfa3c33_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/NmZd3i)Shimsning (https://flic.kr/p/NmZd3i) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

I will have to re-learn the proper order of doing this, I seem to remember that the shift drum is assembled with (at least) upper-tolerance clearance, then proper clearance is done one shaft at the time with the shift drum and associated fork(s) in place, and in the end everything is installed to get as much gear overlap as possible which might require shifting shafts this way or that but I don´t quite remember anymore. It will be trial-and-error again I suppose.

The 900 motor ran and shifted very well after the re.build, the ST has not been started yet ….

(https://c1.staticflickr.com/6/5744/31200963896_785ed908fc_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/Px86xo)DSC_0002 (https://flic.kr/p/Px86xo) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

Was the dog-grinding worth the trouble ….? Naah…., don´t think so, really.

I have also heard afterwards that it is possible to shift the gears for 5th atnd 6th and the box still works, a friend is said to have discovered this on the dyno when the shift pattern turned out to be 1-2-3-4-6-5. I hope I have not done so on the ST, but I can´t be sure until I start the ST motor …. the 900 was OK  :) 

Bugger. Good to have handy mates.

Great thread, thanks!

What surfaces are the "gear dog end faces"?

Thanks, I hope someone will find something useful somewhere in my ramblings.

Gear dog end faces:

(https://c3.staticflickr.com/6/5672/31268367866_2382b55884_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/PD5yoN)Dog markerad (https://flic.kr/p/PD5yoN) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

The idea is that by polishing these surfaces, the will slide easier when they are brought in contact when you change gear, thereby making shifting smoother. When I tried them by hand, on the shafts, it did feel smoother, but I can´t really say if it was any better on the running motor.   

Cool, thanks!

 [thumbsup]
Maybe you might feel the difference when making clutchless up shifts. I have to remember that you have a substantial off season to work on bikes.

Believe it or not, it´s too short .... :o

When I bought the bike, it came with the stock 749R linear rear linkage and shock, and a new but not 749R-spech Öhlins front fork.

Trying out all the adjusters, it turned out the rebound adjuster on the shock would just turn half a turn, so I had to dismantle the shock, really all the way, to get at the rebound adjuster. As it turned out, the adjuster wheel has got a good whack that had destroyed the adjuster:
(https://c4.staticflickr.com/6/5710/31396379715_c6de26ccc4_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/PQoDRD)P6290024 (https://flic.kr/p/PQoDRD) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

(https://c3.staticflickr.com/6/5680/31360154146_dc4327635c_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/PMbZfS)P6290024 (2) (https://flic.kr/p/PMbZfS) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

A bit of work, but once diagnosed, just a few spare parts away.

I don´t have too much experience with shock shimming, but from what I know, the shimming seemed very stiff:

(https://c5.staticflickr.com/6/5330/31252732292_797f66476c_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/PBGqtW)P6270044 (https://flic.kr/p/PBGqtW) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

The five shims closest to the piston is quite a lot .... but not having ridden the bike, I left it all in place.
 
Springwise, both ends came with stupendously stiff springs, 10.5 N/mm front and 120 N/mm rear. That might be OK if you´re in the 100 kg leage, but I´m 62 or so, and on the first track day, on a small twisty track, the bike would chatter as soon as we went anything but straight ahead. Presumably, the tires were doing the suspension work as well, so that would be mostly some springiness but no damping.

Digging into my pile of used springs, I found some 9.2 or so N/mm fork springs, and a 100 N/mm rear spring, and the improvement was immense. The rear shock, however, really is very stiffly damped, so that will have to be corrected during the winter. Some correction here, and the suspension should be quite OK.     

Wow, a 120 spring and that shim stack.
I think the previous owner nicked that shock off of a dump truck.  ;D

That sort of shim stack seems pretty common, I have yet to see any reason for it.
PM me when you open it up and we can discuss what you've got.

Speeddog, I will. I have most of the info somewhere, just have to find it.

Anyway, jumping back and forth a bit, back to the gearbox.
Apart from the oil left in the motor (bought from a car breaker), everything looks almost like new, the gearbox could have been new, pistons look like they have just been run in ..... so I decided to keep all the bearings unless I find something contradictory later on.

Theoretically, since I keep everyting, the shimming should be OK, on the other side, you never know what Luigi might have been up to when assembling the engine, so better safe than sorry. Checking end float is no big deal, provided some basic tools are available: Dial gauge, magnetic foot, and a substantial, flat steel bar.

You have to start sommewhere ....

(https://c1.staticflickr.com/6/5813/30599508664_df215a868f_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/NBYtRA)20161201_205733 (https://flic.kr/p/NBYtRA) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

Checking end float could be done like this ....
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/6/5609/31051635160_2de912e1ae_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/PiVKj1)20161204_170737 (https://flic.kr/p/PiVKj1) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

It´s convenient to use the appropriate nut since you need something to take hold on when levering the shaft up and down in order to establish the end float:
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/6/5566/30599506304_1ed93b9004_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/NBYt9U)20161204_173714 (https://flic.kr/p/NBYt9U) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

As it turned out, all the end floats were in the middle of the respective range, but the workshop manual recommends shift drum end float to be at the top of the range, and shaft end float to be at the lower end so some re-shimming will have to be done.

Furthermore, the manual says that the "middle gear" on the input shaft should be placed so that the clearande between the dogs of the neighbouring gears should be equal:

(https://c4.staticflickr.com/6/5805/30613674883_9c03b39a62_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/NDe5YK)Dogavstånd (https://flic.kr/p/NDe5YK) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

That will be next, have not checked that yet. I also need this to rest a little, memories from last time are re-appearing, but not very quicly .... [roll]   
          

Looking at the components, it´s obvious Ducati has spent some effort on the compont engineering.

While grinding shims for the gearbox, I noticed a slight difference on the shift drums:

"Other" Duc:

(https://c3.staticflickr.com/6/5570/31098308250_5073d32e3a_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/Po3XAs)20161206_203711 (https://flic.kr/p/Po3XAs) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

Hym 1100:

(https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5527/31354132881_4d0cb818d8_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/PLE8kX)20161206_203657 (https://flic.kr/p/PLE8kX) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

Quite nice weight saving on such a component. More holes, and a bigger inner diameter to save weight.

On this gear, the "female dogs" are 2-stage: Presumably, the oblong part presentd a bigger target for the opposing, male dogs to when the gear is moved sideways during shifting, then the male dog slides into the curcular opening, minimizing drivetrain lash.  I have not analyzed the gearbox so I know how many gears this gear is locked to the next, but the lash reduction should be quite noticeable.  

(https://c5.staticflickr.com/6/5330/31323543772_5178af4374_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/PHXmgw)20161023_180212 (https://flic.kr/p/PHXmgw) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr
 

Again, jumping back and forth in time a bit, this summer really was a bit of ups and downs as far as this bike was concerned: First I did not manage to get the bike ready in time for the track day season, then, when it was almost in rideable condition I almost burnt it up. Eventually, it did get to track and worked quite OK for 4 straight track days, but overnight to the 5th day it developed a quite bad misfire which ruined 3 days on track. Well,not on it´s own, rain too bad even for the rain bike did it´s bit.

(https://c7.staticflickr.com/1/599/31456502342_f4a23918d3_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/PVGNdE)20160805_111935 (https://flic.kr/p/PVGNdE) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

Trying a second W-M ECU brought no solution, so in the end I had to resort to (expensive) parts swapping: A new pump module offered at a fair price (but still pricy!), and a Microtec ECU:

(https://c8.staticflickr.com/1/499/31603451575_700e4b122c_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/Q9FX78)20161202_191927 (https://flic.kr/p/Q9FX78) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

As far as the ECu was concerned, maybe this was the excuse I needed, I was pretty fed up with the hassle of having the stock ECU re-programmed on a hunch and not really going anywhere. With the Microtec, solving that incredibly lean running at low revs was easily cured. It´s a wonderful piece of kit, and very easy to work with.

Everything was dandy again until another trackday or two, when I started noticing the slipper clutch relly slipping, both ways. Lending the bike to an experienced 999 pilot didn´t help, and for the second time this season I had a bike that emitted smoke even though the engine was not running. Took about 5 minutes until it finally stopped, and the clutch did not look promising:

(https://c5.staticflickr.com/1/622/30762167444_8766f9bef0_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/NSm9Dj)20160915_210125 (https://flic.kr/p/NSm9Dj) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

A was a bit fed up with that, so I only took it apart the other day, and I was, and still am, a bit confused by what I found, and what I did not find: I had expected to find some oil causing the slippage, but the clutch is completely dry.

Pressure plate and 1st friction disc are pretty worn:

(https://c3.staticflickr.com/1/506/31230454850_d51530d798_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/PzJfb7)20161212_192753 (https://flic.kr/p/PzJfb7) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

(https://c5.staticflickr.com/1/307/30761705844_8e5a6b9694_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/NSiMqG)20161210_182732 (https://flic.kr/p/NSiMqG) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

Most steel discs look pretty unused:

(https://c2.staticflickr.com/1/751/31487113121_08eda054bf_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/PYpFJH)20161210_182558 (https://flic.kr/p/PYpFJH) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

A few look really worn:

(https://c5.staticflickr.com/1/751/30761709444_e3d2ef8903_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/NSiNuL)20161210_182639 (https://flic.kr/p/NSiNuL) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

It looks like spring pressure did not get through to the whole disc pack, which I can´t really understand. And, if the clutchs slips, all discs slips so it should all be worn .....
It seemed to work OK as a clutch, riding in an out of the pits forked fine, shifts worked fine.

The hub centre and outer basket aren´t like new but nowhere nearly as badly worn as the other STM I´ve used for years on the Monster900. Disk pack height is also within recommended limits.

Well, any suggestions are welcome, I´ll think a while before next action with the clutch.            

I think you're on the right track, seems a friction or a steel is hanging up on the basket or hub.

I've had no experience with Evoluzione slippers.

The few I've worked on were coil spring type, so they require a steel up against the pressure plate.

I will check the STM instructions, I suspect I may have gotten that wrong this time.

EDIT: Found it .... should´ve been a steel disc next to the pressure plate. Just because you´ve done it before does not mean you do it right next time if your mind is elsewhere ....  [bang]

What a difference 0.2 mm makes ... :)

(https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5604/31667338785_46b93c206a_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/QfkoxK)20161215_212731 (https://flic.kr/p/QfkoxK) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

Much better!

I think that will have to do, after some further tidying-up; oil cooler bracket.3

(https://c6.staticflickr.com/1/540/31791139365_4d4198830f_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/QrgU9v)20161221_210802 (https://flic.kr/p/QrgU9v) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr 

0.3  ;D
That's a fair bit of cooling surface there. [thumbsup]

Not much action over Christmas Holidays, and a belated Merry Chriatmas to everyone :-)

I did take one cylinder head apart, I wanted to check on the camshafts since I´ve heard somewhere that not all 2V plain bearing cams are alike. It seems my stock and Duc perf cams are compatible:

(https://c2.staticflickr.com/1/418/32010166921_36a007c8fd_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/QLCtpF)20170105_185246 (https://flic.kr/p/QLCtpF) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

It also seems that with the big 2V motors, the stock half ring set up is beyond it´s limits ...

(https://c3.staticflickr.com/1/673/32090019346_d52b266963_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/QTFJKC)20170105_190732 (https://flic.kr/p/QTFJKC) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

It´s a good thing that Mike Guidera decided to design his MBP retainers; another order is on it´s way.

There's some model-year distinction in those cams.  Something about the snout where the pulley drives it being longer or shorter or something like that.  Someone will chime in I'm sure and give relevant details.

Brad says there's two styles of left hand end, thin and thick, with corresponding end caps.
Note #8, 2V cams in : http://bikeboy.org/duccamspec.html

I do have some recollection of different lengths on the snout for the pulley, but can't remember what or where.

I've seen a lot of broken half rings on DS1000 motors, usually the intakes.
I put it down to heavier heads, as they're larger.
I suspect the loose guides that are common don't help.

Thanks fpr the tips.
I´ve checked the cams, the lenghts are all the same, but my stock cams have LH bearings 8 mm wide, the DP cams are 9 mm. Since the end caps are not just flat o the surface facing the cam bearing, it´s not just a matter of turning them down 1 mm. I think, saturday night and all.
  
Maybe simplest to get the corresponding end caps ....

...... or take another look tomorrow. If the cams are really the same length, and the bearing is wider, it seems it be wider inwards, not outwards ..... which would be OK, maybe?

Edit sunday morning:

I´ve checked both cams in a cylinder head, and they appear to be compatible.

"Flange depht" on the LH side is the same:
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/453/31806706680_5afd93c8e6_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/QsDFLu)20170108_113919 (https://flic.kr/p/QsDFLu) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

"Protrusion length" on the RH is same:
(https://c5.staticflickr.com/1/280/32143707076_7202e7c8e6_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/QYqUf9)20170108_114236 (https://flic.kr/p/QYqUf9) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

Should be OK, I think  :)

A bit of a lull in activities right now, waiting for the crank to come back from the balancers.

As for the cams, with the help of my  Duc club friend and fellow forum member HNRacing, it seems that the cams differ in the distance between the axial bearing distance:

(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/264/32389570432_24fda2bc92_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/Rma1Rw)IMG_1199 (https://flic.kr/p/Rma1Rw) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

This distance is either 56 mm or 58 mm; mine are both 58 mm, so no problem there  :)

This NCR info might also be of interest:

(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/776/31698388094_b877ee14a7_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/Qi5wqE)NCR Cam Spec (https://flic.kr/p/Qi5wqE) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr       

 [popcorn]
How's it going?

Well, not too well at the moment, still waiting for the crank to come back from the balancer, and waiting for some response from the company that could supply oil cooler hoses. And I´ve realized that ever so slowly the winter is coming to an end, and if I want to have the bike rideable in time I should concentrate on that for now.

One item is I´d like to have is some kind of a half fairing, and so far the top half of a 1098 fairing seems like the best bet:

(https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2299/32124358683_60368425de_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/QWHJDa)20170212_190654 (https://flic.kr/p/QWHJDa) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

It does not fit perfectly, so in the end I might use this fairing as a starting point for a bespoke fairing. For instance, this one has air outlets from the rad where I´d like to have air inlets for the rear cylinder, but that will have to wait until next winter.

I´m also thinking about making a crankcase ventilation catch tank in the seat unit, lets see.

Right now, the shock is in pieces for re-shimming. Seems I´ll have to improve on my de-aeration tecniques ....

(https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2944/32898554496_c4204d2199_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/S88G5Q)20170214_201719 (https://flic.kr/p/S88G5Q) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr     

Perhaps try something besides beer?  ;D

I´ll think about it ... [beer]

It's taking shape [thumbsup]

Well, yeah ... I´m not entirely convinced about the shape it´taking, but it´ll have to do for now After all, it´s a rolling project  :)

Well, summer is drawing close, ad I have to concentrate on stuff necessary to have the bike running; the fairing project hs been shelved for the time beeing.

Right now I´m working on a cranckcase ventilation catch tank. Im moving the reed valve to after the tank, on the assumption that more volume is better:

(https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2860/33760094736_9143b14cf0_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/TrgiYU)20170402_201438 (https://flic.kr/p/TrgiYU) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

As mentioned before, on a special like this, everythng takes time since everything has to be fabricated. The air hose nipple for the idle stepper motor interefered with the frame cross-member, so a little bracket to solve that needed fabricating:

(https://c1.staticflickr.com/4/3938/32937528534_5de194c4ef_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/SbzrH1)20170331_173812 (https://flic.kr/p/SbzrH1) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

Other than that, not much progress lately. Lots of work, and other stuff needing doing.     

Well,
this started out as a standard 749 / 999 rear sub frame. I think, now it´s mostly TIG weld. Or attempted TIG weld, just as the exhaust last winter was my learning project for thin-wall stainless TIG welding, this has been my project for learning alu TIG welding. Tacky welding apart, it has been getting (slightly) better, at least I´m pretty sure the metal will fuse (as opposed to just melting), and again I´ve learned how important weld preparation is. Any irregularity in the seam pre-weld will show up in the weld.

(https://c1.staticflickr.com/4/3946/33594834530_9323e9280e_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/TbEiT1)20170411_195100 (https://flic.kr/p/TbEiT1) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

When I bought the alu sheet, I thought the white surface was protetctive foil, but it turned out to be very stubborn paint, renants of which contaminated the weld area, and maybe using sanding wheels also use for other metals does not help.

Anyway, it´s in place now, oil cooler hoses next, I ordered hoses and connectors yesterday.      

For TIG welding aluminum, clean weld area with a degreaser, specifically non-chlorinated product.

Scary story:
http://www.brewracingframes.com/safety-alert-brake-cleaner--phosgene-gas.html

I scrub the weld zone with a stainless steel wire brush, which is used only for that task.

Gas lens to promote better Argon coverage.

Practice, practice, practice.
And do a bit of welding on similar size scraps beforehand to warm up and get the welder setting correct.

After almost torching off my bike, probably due to brake cleaner igniting on the exhaust, I´ve gotten even more cautios about chemicals than I was. Over here, thrichlorethylene was a common degreaser before it got banned on carcinogenic suspicions. It was preferred over hydrocarbon-based fluids due to beeing non-flammable, but on hot surfaces it would de-compose into chlorine gas .... nasty stuff of WW1 (in)fame.

My welding deteriorates seriously when my patience drops off, especially since preparation effort also drops off .... with alu and TIG, it´s fascinating what can be covered up with a bit more filler ... but it shows.

It´s also hard to weld bigger pieces without a gas pedal, it´s a pretty huge difference at the start and the end of the weld due to the initially cold work piece getting warmer and warmer. Beeing gifted would help ... but at least I can get more careful with preparations.

But I think TIG (and oxy-acethylene) welding is fun, so I practice when I can. 

And Speeddog, thanks for the tips  [thumbsup]          

Well,

it´s off for the first track day of the year tomorrow. The bike still has the old motor, but the new crankcase ventilation, rebuilt and re-valved shock, hopefully functioning slipper clutch, and, just barely, the new oil cooler arrangement:

(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4179/34606850886_67167a131c_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/UJ6a5S)20170513_181419 (https://flic.kr/p/UJ6a5S) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4156/34606850096_1f875af880_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/UJ69Rf)20170513_224944 (https://flic.kr/p/UJ69Rf) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

Not that I need it, the way the weather is looking today ... but hopefully it will be a summer eventually this year as well.

 I was trying get hoses done with press fittings as that makes for smaller parts, but in the end I had to revert t good ol´Goodridge. Quite good kit, actually, but it is not easy t get teh angled couplings angle the right way.

I also think I will try a 90 degree bend for the motor block inlet, the 45 degree did not come out as I had expected.     

 [popcorn]

The hopefully functioning slipper clutch turned ot to slip as happily as ever, so I just did a few trundle stints to get the feel of the bike. Apart from the clutch, everything seemed to work, at least at no-slip-provoking low revs and trundle tempo.

I really don´t see what´s wrong with the clutch. I have now compared it really closely with the old STM I had on the Monster 900. Even though quite a few of the part numbers are different, it seems that the actual parts are identical to the old one, so now the new clutch is assebled exactly as I used to have the old one on the M900. I also have the old main spring to swap with, and as a last resort, a complete standard clutch with everything needed to change; in an hour that should be possible, even in the pits.

Next track day is Wednesday next week, let´s see if I can get the STM to work or if it will be the standard clutch ...           

Is it a coil spring or diaphragm type?

My vote would be to run the standard clutch next week and thus be able to see how the rest of the bike works at speed...

It´s a diaphragm type.

I´ll run it first stint, if it does not work I´ll swap it for a standard clutch.   

Good luck. [thumbsup]
Will be watching how she goes. [popcorn]

Track day done, eventual success, it seems. But not straight away.

The first stint gave the same results as last time: Clutch slips.
Since the weather was very uninspiring, I decided to embark on a step-by-step problem investigation, even if some steps seemed like chasing foregone conclusions.

Second stint: With the spring from my old STM clutch, used on my old M900 for years without problems. It´s marked "150 kg" as opposed to the "slippers" 160 kg spring. Presumably, these numbers have some relation to the stiffness of the spring; if this would work, the 160 kg spring is faulty.
Well, it did not work. I suppose beeing able to activate the rev limiter just by turning the twistgrip a few more degrees could have some bright aspects if accompanied by some effects like accelleration, tire spin, wheelying.... but not when nothing happens. Obviously, the 160 kg spring is not the culprit.     

Third stint: Having anticipated something like this after after the problem first appeared, I had ground a steel plate down slightly, from 1.5 to 1.2 or so mm, in case I might need something other than 1.5 or 2.0 mm. I installed one this extra steel disc next to the pressure plate, with the 160 kg spring. This throws clutch package thickness over the STM max limit, but what the hell ... and it worked.

Due to weather, crashes, etc, the 3rd stint was actually the last stint of the day. I´m also working on a very abrupt throttle response going from engine brake to slight throttle opening; and the bike demands beeing ridden almost hands off, but on the laps when I managed to get everything (including myself) working, it´s really nice to ride. And no clutch slippage this stint.

Suspension still seems a bit stiff, but I need a bit more speed and decent riding before I can judge on that. Next track excursion is last week of june at Gotland Ring on the isle of Gotland in the baltic sea. Hopefully, 4 consecutive track days will bring some progress.           
       

Did the clutch slip when it was supposed to slip?

Yes, the back-torqe slip function seened to work quite OK. I'll need more than that one stint to know exactly.

A good shop might have a spring tension tool  https://www.benchmarkarizona.com/rimac-valve-spring-tester-used_8_83_252.html   You would need to know the correct compressed spring height for the test. Maybe STM can supply specs.  My experience is usually if they are bad they will not sit square.  Or, if all functions fine, just leave it.

I think I leave it for now ... but I´ll order a spare, and bring the clutch toolkit to the track days.

I´ll see if I can use my suspension spring tester for these springs as well, at least a comparative measurement could be possible. Another little miniproject  [roll] 

Perhaps the secondary spring is cracked?

No, this clutch has the spider type secondary spring, and it´s ok.

On the M900, with the old STM cluth, I ha a cracked main spring once, but did not notice until I dismantled the clutch in the winter season. or maybe it acted a bit funny, don´t remember really, but at least no bad enough for me to start looking what was going on.   

I had some money on my Paypal account from the sale of my Radical stuff ... can´t have that  ;D

Got some new carbon instad:

(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4212/35380779325_731f22aa7b_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/VUtK3D)20170618_142019 (https://flic.kr/p/VUtK3D) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

 ;D
It looks the business now. [thumbsup]

Hello everyone, long time no hear… so I figured an update could be of interest.
It´s been 8 track days since last, and there has been some developments.

First excursion was the 4 days at Gotland Ring, a really nice track but awkward to reach due to it´s location. First day started off pretty well; I haven’t been to the track for two years so some re-familiarization was necessary. Things seemed to work pretty much OK, until halfway thru day one the clutch started slipping again.  I had prepared for this and brought everything I needed to put in a stock clutch, so that´s what I started to do. When disassembling the STM, this is what I found:

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4023/35264176680_4506eb57e3_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/VJb89d)20170626_162628 (https://flic.kr/p/VJb89d) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

The spider spring should not really affect the drive part of the clutch, so I don´t know how this might be related to the slipping clutch, and I frankly don´t know what´s the matter with this clutch. For now it will stay in the “useless, but too expensive to scrap” part of the bin. For now, the STM 48T basket and plates, and Duc stock centre etc works just fine, but there are instances when I really miss the slipper function.

With the clutch working again, things worked pretty well except for the lambda plug falling out; I was sure I had lock-wired it, but apparently not …. But it was still in the belly pan, so quickly fixed.

Then, after the second stint of the 4th day I noticed this:

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4130/34810139294_c6b59e6c90_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/V344Dq)20170629_113653 (https://flic.kr/p/V344Dq) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

Since the weather was none too good, and I was pretty done for, really, I decided to call it a day; don´t want to risk anyone being hit by silencer parts dropping off the bike.  
Back home, a pal welded the crack (I´ve never welded titanium), and some extra support to keep things on the bike if it did crack …

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4100/35573801372_c01f2d0db3_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/Wcx2LY)20170705_210718 (https://flic.kr/p/Wcx2LY) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

Basically, the bike behaved well, but one major problem got very evident during the days at Gotland Ring: The abrupt throttle response in the transition from engine brake into the turns to drive out of the turns. Work kept me from doing anything about it and at the next two days at Anderstorp Raceway, the longest track in Sweden with mainly straights and wide, banked constant-radius turns it got even worse. The long turns, however, made it very obvious that depending on what RPM I cracked the throttle, response would be slightly more or slightly less bad, so doing something to the mapping would be next step.

Adding 5% fuel at  0% throttle and interpolating up to 6% throttle did a world of difference, and adding another % even better. It´s still not perfect, but perfectly tolerable.
Additionally, I swapped for a throttle I modified from “quick" To "progressive" years ago when I had the same problem on the M900. The mapping is the main cure, but I think the really slow opening from closed throttle helps a bit, too.

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4291/35219809233_3c676ada67_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/VEfJfe)Schnellgas (https://flic.kr/p/VEfJfe) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

With these measures, the last two track days at the small Kinnekulle Ring were a relief, fo the first time everything seemed to work at least acceptably, and riding the bike made great fun.

With no other niggles to distract, and with speed and lean angles increasing, it became obvious that the suspension still is not quite OK; in turns there is still a faint but obvious chatter. It´s OK for this summer, but something I will have to look into over the winter. Sag values seem pretty OK, but the sensation when riding the bike is one of a stiff set-up, even with compression adjusters way out.
It may partly be the linear rear linkage giving another feel that I´m not used to, but  I´ll have to do something about the chatter.      

Bravo. [clap]
Dyno time now for some fine tuning and some suspension work.

Hopefully, the tuned engine will be finished in time for the fine tuning .... the suspension seems to offer an opportunity for learning a thing or two :-) 

The broken fingers can roam around and possibly get into a position where they can jam against the pressure plate, holding it 'open' a bit.

Hello, everybody.

Quite a while since I updated here, reason beeing partly that not much has really happened, and since I´ve been busy with other stuff, like retiring from professional life.So I now have more time for doing whatever I like, but less money to do it with ....

I did some modifications to the front fork, allowing me to use the shorter (240 mm) springs for the last track day of the summer. However, I only ran a coupe of laps a couple of times each day, three laps or so into the stints the drizzle started, and the rest of the day it rained.

Anyway, I´ve just come back from Reactive Suspension in York, England after two days of suspension dyno seminar, and two days of further dyno testing at the suspension school (suspensionschool.com). Highly recommended for anyone with an interest in suspension.

Quite a few revelations over the days, and also actual test traces from the shocks of my M800, and of my track day bike.

This one shows the spread of the damping forces on compression (the positive traces):

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4582/38183806174_0b163d8d3a_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/21baZgL)Skärmklipp 2017-12-07 21.45.31 (https://flic.kr/p/21baZgL) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

And this one shows the spread of the damping forces on rebound (the negative traces):

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4550/27123417179_064492442c_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/HjNAXM)Skärmklipp 2017-12-07 22.27.16 (https://flic.kr/p/HjNAXM) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

The clicker positions can be seen to the left in the graphs.
The red / purple traces is the track bike, the blue ones is the M800.  

This really gives a completely new fact base to base re-shimming on. Had I had more easy access to the dyno, I could really design the damping I think I want, and see what difference the changes makes. But this is also far better than previous guesswork.

I and another seminar participant ran a lot of tests on the Penske shock. Both Gareth (Reactive Suspension´s owner) and my seminar mate (semi-professional, with his own dyno) rate the Penske highly, and I am inclined to agree: Good performance on the dyno, dead easy to work on, very good information material on their homepage, etc. The only negative is a slight tendency to develop shaft seal leaks, due to seal design. If I lived in the US, I think a Penske would be at least as natural a choice as an Öhlins is for me living in Sweden.

//Torbjörn.  

I'll be back later with at least a hundred questions.

I´ll try my best ... a seminar does not make a master :-)

Well,
some people think we have a long winter here in Sweden, but from a project perspective it sure isn´t too long ....

My tuned motor project is put on hold for a while, since every little item I touched has turned into a little project of it´s own. So I´m concentrating on the little niggles that always seem to be planned for "later".
As already noted, suspension has been slightly revised, and changing fork springs is now very quickly acomplished. Damper removal should also be easier now, previously I had to remove the exhaust to get at it, and to get at the exhaust I had to remove the belly pan .... should be possible now without removing anything except the shock.

Underslung caliper bracket an new brake hose for the rear:

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4668/40220371602_b7dbee67b1_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/24h8VdN)2018-01-31 19.43.22 (https://flic.kr/p/24h8VdN) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

New brake fluid container bracket and new brake hoses for the front:

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4695/40220370392_ea72a46756_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/24h8URW)2018-02-14 16.08.47 (https://flic.kr/p/24h8URW) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4663/38454356930_7d2e868264_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/21A5CzY)2018-02-14 16.09.01 (https://flic.kr/p/21A5CzY) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4709/40220368572_b988448bfd_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/24h8Ujy)2018-02-14 16.09.21 (https://flic.kr/p/24h8Ujy) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

One colleague in the club had a quite big crash last summer when (for some reason) the front fender came loose and was ripped off the bike by the front tire. Along with it came the brake lines, however this did not become apparent until the tight turn after the back straight .... so I wanted to get the brake lines away from the fender. I hope this will do.  

Well, assuming some interest might be there for this seemingly never-ending project, I´ll provide an update on what´s happened so far during 2018. I already did this on the german forum Ducati1.de, so if someone is on both forums, this will be mostly known already.

Anyway, in a very short version, the summer 2018 could be compiled in two short headlines:
Tops ….

(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1919/30337328497_7431b17b17_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/NdNJPT)Pokal (https://flic.kr/p/NdNJPT) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

….. or flops.

(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1906/44364315545_f5205dd737_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2aAjHoa)2018-06-25 12.29.06 (https://flic.kr/p/2aAjHoa) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

But that would not be very fair, after all the summer was more eventful than this.

I´ll actually start with the M800; as already shown elsewhere on this forum,  I finally found a workable design for rearsets, with the basic aim of moving the footpegs as close to the center of the bike as possible, and finding a good position for the pegs themselves. They now sit some 50 mm further back, and recognizing my age, actually slightly lower than stock 😊 Even so, knee pucks are now first on the tarmac, not the boot sliders.
The pegs themselves are from german supplier LSL; they have very neat folding footpeg kits for the passenger.
In practice, it all worked very well, and the not-more-so-dark M800 Dark on Bridgestone S21´s is actually great fun on the mostly short and tight swedish tracks. Interestingly,even though I have the suspension set up for comfort on the street for me (63 kg + gear), it works well on track, and even for faster riders 30 kg´s heavier. I suppose the 800 motors relative lack of power is a factor here, but nevertheless, it does indicate that my belief premium suspension does not have to be perfectly set up to work at least well is correct-ish.  It´s not Marquez territory, but still …

(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1917/43541579450_6514a665f3_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/29kBYB5)2018-08-15 14.31.43 (https://flic.kr/p/29kBYB5) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

As anyone will know, with an 800 motor, no records will be broken, but there is a special attraction to beating the shit out of something. Marquez-type talent lacking, a bike with limited potential is the key, and with the nature of most swedish track you can have a lot of fun on such a bike. Of course, anyone will kill you on the straights, but you see a quite a lot of people again at the next corner ...
    
Back to the trophy … in the swedish Duc club we run a club championship, basically in 2V and 4V classes, run together and in WSB format (2+2 races at two different tracks).  Not considering myself to be a racer, and not riding too well at the trackday before the first race, I had no intention to participate.  However, I was persuaded to participate. In the first race, I followed behind my buddy (on our rain bike 900 SS with slick tires) to get up to speed, and ended up 4th  (out of 6, I think). In the second race, I was a bit more ambitious, had a good start and finally ended up 3rd, bettering my lap record by 4 or so seconds (to 1:53 or so, one of the possibly two longest tracks in Sweden). Competition does change how you percieve things, like risk evaluation … but it was great fun, especially beating my buddy.

Then, to the flops … the 4 track days on the track in Gotland, Gotland Ring.
For some reason, the first stint felt really awkward, and before the second stint I asked my buddy to pull me along. That was a mistake; towards the end of the lap there is a left-hander over a crest and I saw too late that my buddy was approaching a slower rider. I suppose I eased my pace and lost a bit of focus, anyway the next thing I knew I was tumbling in the “limestone trap” (Gotland is a limestone isle).  Shit … especially as I´ve made exactly the same thing many years ago, also behind him “pulling me along” in my first lap around the Cartagena track in Spain. Suppose there is a lesson here... If nothing else, leave “pulling along” until things at least feel OK if not fast.  
No big harm done, ribs mangled, and the outer joit of the middle finger still fat and tender. Bike not too bad, really, at least I laid her on the cheap side, but I went back to Old Faithful, our rain bike, for the rest of the week.    


After the gotland excursion, not too much out of the ordinary has happened this summer, apart from the  ordinary Duc club track days. As in the rest of Europe, the summer was so hot that a lot of the track days sort of petered out after lunchtime with only the most enthusiastic still riding in the late afternoon.  I also was affected by this, and though I´m usually among the “enduring” riders I also often called it a day early. I suppose old age is starting to catch up with me now at 63.
From a technical point of view, also not too much has happened. I still had some chattering early on, so I´ve slightly modified the fork so I can quickly and easily swap springs, and I´ve installed a cross-over shim in the shimstacks to get a softer initial response.

(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1957/45306592612_011eecc75d_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2c2A8wu)20171220_130435 (https://flic.kr/p/2c2A8wu) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

At the rear I now have a 90 N/m spring (down from 120 N/mm), and I´ve also gone down another mm on the clamp shim diameter.  
Both front and rear really should be too soft by now, but it felt fine so far, so it´s a good starting point, I believe.
For the winter, I have quite a few projects planned, time allowing. A new motor with some tuning bits, new rear subframe for a slightly lower seat, possibly clip-ons with rearward position of the ends, and tank further back for better support during braking. I know this is not what a racer should be like, but all the riding on the Monster this summer has convinced me that “ass high” is not my thing, and for a while I even considered modifying the track bike towards a street fighter configuration. However, when the riding does work out, the “racer” style really is better for track riding.

So, let´s see what time, money and inspiration will suffice for over the winter; first steps are already ongoing.      

(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1903/43419093770_a6e6630ea1_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/299NcT1)2018-10-06 14.10.54 (https://flic.kr/p/299NcT1) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

Bravo [clap]
Thanks for sharing.
Heal up soon.

Eh, not so good to scrape both of you up, but sounds like some solid progress, and you're on the way back!

Is the 90 N/mm spring on the 800 or the track bike?

Good to hear you are pretty much OK.  To quick and complete recovery, both you and the bike  [beer]

Thanks for the well-wishes. I´m healing fine, and this was way back in late June, so no problem, seems I made it sound worse than it was. I suppose it served me right as punishment for a piece of really shit riding.

Anyway, the rear spring on the track bike is a 90 N/mm, on the M800 I have a 95 N/mm spring (stock from an ST4S).

On the track bike, I think that really is too soft, or at least should be, and the travel indicator I have on the shock shaft is always pushed down to the bump rubber which is at least an indication.
At the front I also have soft springs (8.75 N/mm as a mean) and still can´t even come close to bottoming the forks even with the rear in the air. Even though I think this is also too soft.     

That said, it does feel fine but I need more time on it to really tell, and to know if it has changed the chatter situation. I hope to be able to ride a little quicker and more consistently next summer, and adapt the suspension accordingly.

I personally think it´s easier to start with too soft suspension and work up to a sensible set-up, but this bike has me slightly mystified. One thing I will test at the rear is maybe a 100 N/mm spring and compensate with a little less static ride height, and at the front with a little more spring and less oil to reduce the progressive action of the forks. 

I'm running one each of progressive and straight rate in the forks on my M750.
Softens the midrange travel and still ramps up enough to not blow through the travel.
Makes setting preload a bit finicky, can't just do same turns both sides.
(Well, you can, but removing the axle the forks shift and reassembly gets maddening.)
The springs are ~0.75 kN/mm equivalent full stroke.
I'm running /100 Ohlins spring or 600#/in Hyperco recently.
I'm ~75 kilo + gear, and I'm on the street, so I'm not riding track level aggression.
OTOH, I try to get the spring to do the most work possible and just enough damping to keep it from getting crazy.
I suspect it'd be too soft in pitch for tracking.

I'd say, unless you've got cornering ground clearance issues, you could drop some travel at each end, from the fully extended position.
That gets more weight on the front end quite naturally for steady state cornering, and can allow you to sit more upright.

Depends also on if you've got other riders intended for the bike... I've forgotten.  :P

Well, that´s an idea, never tried t run one each. I assume your progressive springs are true progressive, and not the more like dual stage Duc stock springs?

On the track bike, I will start with the soft set-up and see where that takes me. With a lower seating position I will have some more scope to vary ride height; ground clearance is not a problem.

On the M800, I´m not sure what springs I have right now since springs have been swapped around some to test various set-ups between my 2 bikes and one or two others. I think I´m at 8.0 N/mm, suppose I should check. Eventually :-)

With the 2-1 exhaust and footrest hangers, ground clearance is not a problem. If I find decent speed in left-handers as well, the side-stand might become a problem but has not been so far.

Both bikes are almost only ridden by me, and not much two up on the M800 either.     
 

Krya på dig. [thumbsup]

"on the M800 I have a 95 N/mm spring"

Isn`t that a too heavy spring for your weight?

What`s done to the Rain Bike suspensionwise? Adapted for rain use?

Tack, det är OK  :)

The 95 N/mm is pretty OK, maybe I´ll try the 90 N/mm springs sometime, just for a test. I did try an 85 N/mm spring on the M900 (same bike, basically), that was definitely too soft.

The rain bike is pretty basic, since it is beeing used by people ranging from about 60 kg to about 100 kg, and used in the wetand dry, depending on weather and what bikes might be running (or not) .... but the forks are adapted as per Showa Blues (part 1-2), and the shock is a standard Öhins from a SS1000DS. Somewhat surprisingly, that seems to work for everyone, even if I can sense some slight chatter in some situations.

   

I'm lost just a bit....

3 bikes; rain bike, M800, and 999-based track bike, yes?

Referring to the previous post: Basically yes. M800, 900 SSie rain bike, 749R-based track bike. :) 

OK, I'm not as addled as I thought.  [beer]

Well,
ever so slowly things are moving on. Not as fast as I´d like, but still … moving on.
One might think that having retired from professional life,  you´d have any amount of time for other endeavours. As a matter of fact, you do, but the endeavours might not all be the ones you thought … for instance, a lot of my time is devoted to walking the woods with the dog. This time could of course be used for something else, but I´m glad for the company and for the exercise, both of which I´d not have without him. He´s my friend in retirement 😊  

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4865/45981495954_d2be0c4047_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2d4ebM1)IMG_0277 (https://flic.kr/p/2d4ebM1) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr
 
So or so, the new bearings are finally in the cases. I don´t like this kind of jobs; I do them not very often, they might require a certain amount of violence, quite simply not my cup of tea.I suppose if you´d do it often, it would become routine, but this is my second go in 10 or so years.
Anyway, my pal with all the workshop equipment also has an oven where the cases could be more or less melted. In his experience, 180 to 200°C will cause the old bearings to simply drop out if you clop them on a sturdy table ; in my case not so … the bearings still had to be hammered out.
We also for the first time experienced the new style of crank main bearings; no separate sleeve with a channel for the piston cooling oil, it´s all in the outer bearing race.
Even with this tight fit, some movenment seem to take place, this is what the bearing and bearing seat looked like.

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4812/45371837035_83ee02f304_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2c8mwqk)2018-10-25 17.47.49 (https://flic.kr/p/2c8mwqk) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4862/46234336912_67d2c7245e_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2drz4zS)2018-10-25 17.05.25 (https://flic.kr/p/2drz4zS) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

After I posted this on the german Monster forum, a forum member in whom I place a lot of faith recommended using the MIG welder to remove the bearings; with a bit of weld on the inside of the race it will shrink enough to drop out, especially if you heat the cases as well. I have seen this done on wheel bearings, will try it next time on a crankcase. As welders go, MIG welders are close to violence in my book, but a hammer and chisel is worse ….

When assembling the new bearings, I heated the cases to 130°C, and had the bearings in the freezer for days. I expected some violence to be necessary (having prepared by making some drifts with proper outer diameter to press on the outer races, and center guide to fit the bearing iD. To my surprise, the bearings all dropped into place, except on of the cam drive bearings where some pursuation was necessary.
As always, when I use the press, it´s not alright. In this case, the bearings seems to have got stuck on the seeger ring groove, and got slightly cocked. I got the bearing out again, made sure there were no raises edges or whatever, and pressed a new bearing in (at 130°C), and gad a slight go at all the other bearings to make sure they were properley seated, while the cases were hot.  Should be OK now.

With the bearings done, next up is shimming the gearbox shafts and the crank. This is still ongoing, I´ll be back when I´m done. You can spend a lot of time to get this “perfecr”, so I´ll be back wheni think I´m done :-).  

 [thumbsup] Thanks for the update. [popcorn]

I know a few people capable of shimming Duc lower ends.

I'm not one of them. [thumbsup]

Hello, all.
It´s been a while again, so I suppose an update would be prudent, just in case anyone is still interested.

Starting with the gearbox, I somehow ended up with more parts than I needed, and did not really know what to do.Then I did quite a lot of suspension work for a friend who had a broken 848 motor. We struck a deal where I got the gearbox as a partial payment for the suspension work.
In the end, I used the standard HYM1100 shafts, and I think 1st and 2nd gear sets (I have it noted somewhere …) and the rest is 848 close ratio.
I´ve noted that if you just use a plier to spread the lock trings on the shafts, they actually deform and don´t sit as tight in the grooves as they might. I use some welding rod and other bits and pieces to ease the rings in place. A bit fiddly, but judging by the ring gaps, it works.

(https://live.staticflickr.com/4585/38643920056_4e465d1d41_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/21SQc6J)2017-11-28 13.19.50 (https://flic.kr/p/21SQc6J) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr
    
Doing the shimming really is not that difficult, but you need to be systematic. First time around, I wasn´t, so I had to re-start the process. This time I started with the Ducati standard values (not so many shim thicknesses to chose from in the new motors), then adjusting to get everyhing as good as possible (i.e., equal dog engagement, shaft end play towards the lower tolerance, shift drum towards the upper tolerance).
Starting with one shaft (or the drum) at the time, then adjusting in whatever direction seems appropriate. In the end, and after lots of crankcase openings and closures, hopefully a good compromise can be found. In this case, shaft end float is 0.09 and 0.11 mm respectiverly, shift drum is 0.40mm, and crank pre-load is 0.20mm.

Next up was the crank. Since I have never really done a crank all the way myself, I had to do a lot of investigation before I knew (or had an idea, rather …) what to do, I´ve had the crank balanced with the Carillo rods and Pistal pistons, and in order to do the rod assembly properly, I decided Carillo probably knows what they´re doing and did as they recommends, using rod stretch for correct rod cap assembly.

Rod bearing clearance was next to decide, and varous Ducati mnuls give various values, from a bit over 0.02 mm up to slightly less than 0.07 mm. Consulting with a friend at Volvo engine design, I decided to go for generous clearance in order to get more oil through the bearing, thus having as much cooling effect as possible. In order to establish correct measurements, some tools had to be organized:

(https://live.staticflickr.com/7869/46283093034_1840455b36_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2dvSX5E)2019-01-31 17.12.30 (https://flic.kr/p/2dvSX5E) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr  

With the yellow-marked  Duc bearings, I got clearances of 0.55 mm and 0.60 mm respectively.
The rod bolts were tightened to 0.11 to 0.15 mm elongation with torque between 38 Nm and 41 Nm, as per Carillo recommendation.

(https://live.staticflickr.com/7927/46329030794_eeaf05a35d_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2dzWoM1)2019-01-31 17.10.57 (https://flic.kr/p/2dzWoM1) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

The cylinders measured up nice straight and round, and piston clearance came out as 0.55 / 0.60mm, and ring end gaps were small but within Ducati recommendations.

Using standard 0.4 mm gaskets both between cylinder and crankcase and between cylinder and head, squish came out as 1.2 mm. I would have liked something closer to 1.0 mm, but I did not need the hassle. Compression was on the high side for an air-cooled motor anyway, at 12.0:1, so getting slightly lazy these days I decided that would have to be good enough.
Valve pockets are pretty generous, so with custom-made pistons even more compression would be possible.

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48051268986_ce82138860_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2gd8jbW)2019-04-10 Hor insug 1 (https://flic.kr/p/2gd8jbW) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr      

I pondered for a long time what to do with the cylinder heads, in the end I sent them to Biggelaar in Holland for some porting (stock valves). It does look nice, but on the other side not very extreme, so I´m not sure just how much good it does, but with the more agressive cams it should be positive.

(https://live.staticflickr.com/7923/40403924743_eb0b328fea_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/24ymFb8)2018-11-20 09.36.01 (https://flic.kr/p/24ymFb8) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

One of the guides was a bit worn, so they put a liner in it. Luckily I saw it looked a bit strange, turned out these guides are not suited to that kind of repair; the material left after boring out the guide is very thin and consequently not very strong. This one cracked and I had to have it renewed.

(https://live.staticflickr.com/7915/33493307588_2c8cc46e4b_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/T2FXsu)2019-03-03 18.58.07 (https://flic.kr/p/T2FXsu) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

Finally, the motor was complete, unobtainium DP cams (timed at 114° lobe centers to keep cylinder pressures slightly lower) and all. So far, I have run it for two track days, spending more attention to listening to the motor than trying to go fast.

Still, the motor is totally different, where the stock motor feels a bit slow, this one goes and does not get lazy at high revs.

I have now changed oil, and made a cranking pressure test. Vertical showed 14.2 bar, and the horizontal 13.0 bar. That´s more of a difference than I´d have liked, so I´ll keep an eye on that. The stock motor showed 10.5 / 10.0 respectively; I would have liked a similar difference on the new motor.
Well, so far, so good as far as the motor is concerned.

On the bike side, I´ve built a new rear subframe to get the angle of the seat down a bit. I felt it was too much arse-up before, and I think this is better.

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/46918828535_61c100c8d0_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2eu4g6z)2019-05-12 17.20.27 (https://flic.kr/p/2eu4g6z) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

It´s also good to have attentive friends join you at the track ….

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/47966710961_e0ff79e6dd_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2g5DW2X)2019-05-29 14.17.33 (https://flic.kr/p/2g5DW2X) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

I'm assuming you were already aware of the split-cage needle bearings in the transmission?
Nearly lost my mind when I saw them the first time.

Love your snapring install solution, consider it stolen.

Did you re-cut the valve seat after the new guide?
Perhaps that's the weak cylinder?

Doggo has a nice jacket!

Good work [thumbsup]

Nice breather box too. So you Evo'ed the motor really 8)

Yes, I was aware of those bearing strips. When I first encountered them, I asked a friend who´s been working for a Ducati dealer more than 10 years if I should put new ones in a gearbox I was working on, but he said he´d never had anyone (including their workshop) exchange one .... so I suppose they are OK.

No need to steal, the snap ring installation is free. It´s a bit fiddly, but here´s the reason I use it (new rings in both pictures):

Pliers only:

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48053937997_096fa7f3c6_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2gdmZAn)2017-11-18 11.37.11 (https://flic.kr/p/2gdmZAn) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

"Slide" method:

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48053890723_62214d2a9e_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2gdmKxi)20171128_132528 (https://flic.kr/p/2gdmKxi) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

It may not make too much of a difference, but it feels better, and it´s what it looks like when Ducati factory has done it.

I first had a 1098 box off Ebay assembled, when I noticed that the dogs leading edges were pretty rounded-off:

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48053846371_6cefdf9eeb_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2gdmwmB)2017-11-18 11.41.33 (https://flic.kr/p/2gdmwmB) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

I suspect a quick-shifter has been at work here .... the 848 box I now have has no such signs, and had never had a quick-shifter fitted.

The new valve guide was installed by a very experienced Ducati mechanic, who also told me to bring the valve since the seat has to be re-cut. Pretty obvious when you know it, which I didn´t . I try to make notes of "everything", but  can´t find any note of which head it was, and I don´t remember .... suppose my age is catching up with me.   

I suppose I have more or less Evo´ed the motor, and hopefully slightly more .... I´m told the Evo cams are somewhere in the middle between stock and DP.

Incidentally; I don´t like to start a new engine without having oil pressure first. After quite a while on the starter I still had no pressure. I took out the oil pressure sensor nd forced oil down the bore (into the oil pump) with a pump-type oil can. Oil pressure arrived quite quickly after that. Same phenomenon appeared after the oil change, so I did the same .... just feel better that way :-)   

Next part-project: Several years ago I bought a second-hand Innovate LM2 exhaust analyzer which I´m trying to bring to life before the next track day. Let´s see how that goes.

As long as the shaft and gear surfaces are nice, IMO yes, leave 'em be.
If any of the 3 looks scruffy, the whole set is scrap.

Those snaprings are broadly uncooperative.
I'm sure the factory has the same sort of tool concept.

On all snaprings that I install, I've taken to grinding a bit of an angle to the ends so they aren't trying so hard to slide off the pliers.


Those dogs and slots are hammered.

Hmm, if they had the valve while doing the guide, and cut the seat, it should be fine.
A leakdown check would help determine the guilty part(y).

If it's a fresh build, or a motor sitting dry for a while, the pumps don't prime well.
I've backfilled through the oil cooler delivery line, and turned the engine backwards so the pump fills it's supply gallery.

It´s a bit strange, I´ve read about leak down testers mostly in american magazines, and I have a description from a Practical Sportsbike mag on how to build one. However, I´ve never seen one over here, and I don´t know anyone who has one or has used one. Maybe now is the time to look up that Practical Sportsbike description ... 
In your experience, it´s a useful tool?

I´ll try your pump priming method sometime, it may be more effective than  just pushing oil backwards into the pump.

I had no idea it was a "local thing".
More than happy to help start a trend!  ;D

Mine is a Yother brand, bought it ~early 90's.
No idea if it's notably better than any other brand, a good friend had one and said it was really nice so I went with it.
It's not much more than a particular selection of off-the-shelf parts, so making your own is pretty straightforward.

Mine looks largely the same as their current offering, other than mine has liquid filled gauges.
https://yother.com/collections/tools/products/yother-dual-gauge-leakdown-tester

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48073132661_ea90fcb9ba_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2gf4nuR)

Referencing the pic:
Air supply comes in from the left into the pressure regulator, there's no quick-disconnect coupling on the one in the pic, it's a "fit your own to match your air hose" deal.
There's ~4 common kinds of QD used here.

A safety suggestion from my FHE in using this tool.
Select a hose quick disconnect pair (end of hose and right side of the tool) that is *different* from your shop air hose.
I used mine frequently when I was racing, and as racing goes, the operator can be very very sleep-deprived.
Under those conditions, it's easy to lose focus and directly connect shop air to the cylinder without the tester in between.
That is a nasty surprise at best, the engine *will* try to turn quite forcefully.
That can increase the scope of repairs or cause a leak/defect in shop staff.

The pressure regulator is a relieving style, so you can adjust the pressure both up and down.
http://wilkersoncorp.com/faq_frl4.shtml

Ideally, you can select two gauges that read exactly the same, but it's not mandatory.
Just makes it easier to use in a sleep-deprived state.
Mine differ by ~3psi, I just have to account for that when reading them in use.


The black 'brick' in between the gauges has a small orifice, I've no idea of the actual size.
Essentially it allows comparing the 'leak' of the orifice to the 'leak' of the engine.

The usual method requires over 100 psi of shop air, such that the regulator can be set to supply 100 psi.
Then one merely reads the gauge on the right, if it's 97psi then the engine has 3% leakdown.
Can be used effectively at 50psi, just have to double the pressure difference to get the leakdown %.

Thanks for the info.

They are available over here as well, but in "my circles" have not been a cmmon diagnostic tool.

I´ll get one, however, and pay some extra by buying in Sweden so i can have emtric units a well. Helps when used in sleep-deprived circumstances :-)   

 ;D

Hi again.

I got the leak-down tester today, real quick delivery. I did some googling before Iordered,and settled for one made by OTC Tools which acc to the net is an american company. However, when I opened it and read the info inside, there was the dreaded "made in China" in small print .... hope it will work properly. By buying locally, and from a known tuning outfit, I hoped to avoid China-made, but that´s how it is.

Anyway, I´m off for a qouple of days of track riding, and will try the leak-down test when I get back (assuming we´re all in one piece ...). I do have a couple of questions form the beginner to the experienced user:

1) The instructions say I should run the motor warm, then remove spark plugs etc and do the testing. However, I assume that in order to hear any potential valve leakage I´d need to remove  headers and air filters in order to hear anything, which would mean a cold test. Is that an issue, or what do you recommend?  

2) Should I use something to enhance whatever sound there might be, like a stetoscope or similiar?

3) I´ve always wondered how it will work with maybe 5 or 6 bar pressure in the cylinder. Won´t that want to turn the crank, even if I manage to hit TDC exactly?

4) Any other useful hints will be muc appreciated.

Kind regards,

  

Yah, difficult to avoid root sources sometimes.

1) I suppose using it on a warm motor will give a more consistent reading, as everything's oiled up and thermal effect on valve clearances and such more closely mimic running conditions.
    I think Howie can give realistic feedback on that.
    I've always done it cold.
    You can listen at the end of the exhaust, listen to the intake on the airbox, and listen at the oil fill hole. No need to remove anything besides the oil fill cap.

2) A stethoscope would be useful if any of the above 'ports' are difficult to access with your ear.
    And if you test hot, less likely to burn your ear.  ;D

3) Even with 1 bar it will turn the crank if it's not real close to TDC and not restrained.
    I enlist a volunteer to slowly ramp up the pressure while I hold the motor at TDC with a 1/2" breaker bar and socket on the ringnut on the layshaft.
    At low pressure, I rock the crank back and forth a bit to find TDC, once found, I have the assistant then turn it up higher.   
    I don't use the standard crank turning tool, as they're easily ruined that way.

4)  This is sort of the standard fundamentally unsafe activity that's often done in a shop.
     Make absolutely sure the regulator is set to zero before attaching it to the motor.
     On an 1100 with the crank at ~90 degrees off TDC and at 7 bar, it's near 300 ft-lb at the layshaft.
     Sooooo, just keep it near TDC and it's fine.
     You can test by yourself with the crank at BDC. That does not test for ring/bore seal at TDC, so it's not the best.

Thanks :-)

Happy to help!  [beer]

First, OTC is a top quality company.  IMO, in this case "Made in China" would be more of a political problem than a quality problem.  

Do expect a bit more leakage on a cold engine.  You should hear (and feel) fine just with the lid off.  Apply air pressure slowly.  If the crank starts to rotate, as Speeddog said...   Usually the tool manufacturer recommends a pressure.  No recommendation, I would suggest 6 BAR or a little less.

Actually, I never did a leak down test on a Ducati.  I have no idea how well the valves seal with just the helper springs.  If you do get valve leakage I would suggest tapping the closing rocker with a plastic mallet to help seat the valve before condemning the valve.

As far as leakage into the crankcase, particularly on a cold engine, cylinder difference is more important than the actual number.  10% would be a pretty good standard for commercial standards.  Race engine?  I'll leave that one for Speeddog.

As a basic diagnostic test the old fashioned compression test still rules.  Cylinder leakage gives you a much better idea of engine condition before tear down.  Excessive blowby might mean you wouldn't want to do that valve job on your well used rusted out Lada.

Hope this helps.

Thanks for all the input, I´ll attend to this later, starting with another compression test.

I got back yesterday evening after two days at Mantorp Park, a rather typical swedish race track. The bike ran immaculately, starts at the touch of the button and compared with two other similiar 2V bikes it does not lose out anything in terms of speed or accelleration. The front straight is slightly uphill, but the braking area is slightly downhill for maybe the last 300 m.  I roll off at the 200 m mark, almost hitting the rev limiter in 5th (I think ...); the GPS showed a best top speed of 214 km/h.

At this event, the club also organizes a club championship, which this year was a two-heat event with some 25 participants in total. Due to the new Duc models that has arrived over the last years, there are now several sub-classes, 2V bikes beeing one of them.

I´m not normally a very competitive person, but when the red lights go out, something does happen. In the first race (day 1) I lowered my best lap time by two seconds, and in heat 2 (the next day) with another second. As it happens, I won both heats and am now the custodian for a year of the rather cumbersome (and fragile ...) trophy:

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48102077946_ddb3892dda_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2ghBHVu)2019-06-20 23.07.15 (https://flic.kr/p/2ghBHVu) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

To put things in perspective, we were 3 participants in the 2V cathegory, and the 3 top candidates have all eliminated themselves before the race with mechanical and/or medical issues.

My best lap was 1:33:19, the all-out winner (on a Panigale) ran a 1:21:something, and a lot of 4V riders are around the 1:30 mark.
I know where I could gain time, for instance over a blind crest followed by a lefthand corner where I know I could keep the gas open significantly longer and still make the corner .... but I just can´t. I suppose that´s what separates the real racers from wannabee´s like me :-)

Today is swedish midsummer, which is more or less the inofficial swedish national holliday. It´s a remnant from out pagan past, and a celebration to fertility (booze beeing a close second). In the christianization process which started about at thousand years ago many old pagan celebrations were taken over by the church and filled with christian content. However, they never made it with midsummer, suppose they struggled to find a concept that could compete with fertility ....

Anyway, in the link below ther is some info on midsummer if anyone´s interested. There´s a short video a bit down on the page:

https://sweden.se/collection/celebrating-the-swedish-way/article/midsummer/

Happy Midsummer :-)


  

    

Well done [thumbsup] [beer]

Excellent!  [Dolph]
Slicing 3 sec off a lap time is no small thing!

They could doll up that trophy with a wider base?

Incredible  [beer]

The trophy is quite light, so it´s not as instable as it looks, but yes, it could do with  wider base.

Anyway, there seems always to be something to think about, and ways to do thigs better. I had a bit of time with nothing particular to do, so I figured I´d do that next cranking pressure test. The bike has been resting since the track days; I took the plugs out and pressed the button. Oops, 11 bar .... was 14.2 last time ....

First start in the morning is a bit slow, after that it was at the touch of the button. Today, the cranking was pretty slow even with one plug out, and switching to a big car battery did no difference.
Plugs back in, and the bike started and sounded as it did last time out. 

I don´t remember the exact circumstances when I did the cranking test last time (after all, I am sliding into the geriatric portion of the population). What is your recommendation on a procedure to make repeatable cranking pressure tests? Any advice will be much appreciated.

As for the leak-down test, I think I´ll rig the old motor as a guniea pig to test procedure on. All cold motor then, of course, it´s on a wooden storage stand.

BTW, I noticed sparks between the cam drive side plug cap and the CF cam belt cover. Maybe that´s the source of that irregular "ticking / crackling" noice I´ve noticed but could not pinpoint? Organizing new plug leads will be an urgent matter, I don´t want free-air sparks that close to the gas system. One fire is plenty enough, thank you ....       

Congrats to the trophy.


Had this issue on my MTS 1100 last summer. Was really causing powerloss and intermittent firing.
Had to baby the throttle home several times. Very noticeable and must be fixed. All energy to spark system is irreguralrly cut/wasted
and therefore no spark to any plug.
My dad, car electrician in the sixties, noticed it and just rolled the plug and cable w some electrical tape!
Worked fine in the sixties and fine rest of the season for me.
Replaced the plug and cable (only 870 SKr, ouch...) this spring, works fine now.
And very easy operation, slide old out and push new in.

Hi MonsterHPD,
How do you end up with suspension setting?

I read somewere that you weight 62kg, i weight 61kg in summer riding gear [coffee] and i am trying to figure the correct spring rate on a 02 monster 900.

Actually i have 8.3Nm on andreani fork cartige and have to choose 90 or 100Nm on ohlind du321

100 seem harsh but 90 seem unbalanced with forks..

Hi, Dadouzzu.

My first Ducati was a M900-2002, for which I pretty soon bought an Öhlins. It came with a 100 N/m spring, which is what used most of the time. I did try an 85 N/mm spring, but that was way too soft.

On my present road bike, a M800 -2003 (essentially the same bike as the M900), I also run an Öhlins shock, but with a 95 N/mm spring. I think any of those would be OK for you. I think 90 N/mm would be too soft, though.

In the forks I have 8.75 or 9.0 N/mm springs, can´t remember exactly (I think I have one 8.5 and one 9.0).  8.3 N/mm as in your case would be slightly on the soft side, but much better than the 2-stage stock springs, which start at 6 N/mm.   

 

For reference, I currently weigh 80 kilo with all gear, and I'm riding a '98 M750 that's ~400 lb dry.

Penske emulsion shock, spring 600 lb/in (105 N/mm).

Monster forks with TiN legs and SBK cartridges, so travel is 140mm+.
Combination of fork springs, 0.86 kg/mm straight rate and 0.6/0.86 OEM progressive.
5wt oil at 160mm.

Sounds reasonable, and really well sorted out for your needs, shows you can really tailor your personal set-up.
However, I have to ask: 140 mm+ fork travel; really ...?

I'm hoping to get that much travel for my Scrambler M750 and trying to follow Speeddogs example. Spare forks are with the suspension shop at present and they are modifying for extra travel for broken back roads and dirt roads, kind of scrambler/dual sport style. Different to the needs to a road race bike.

Wow, 9Nm on both track and street bike?

Maybe for the stiff damping of Andreani cartridge but it feels a lot stiff even compared to a 07 gsxr600 and stiff compared to the shocks with 100Nm springs.
With 135mm of oil i can't use the last 35mm even with fully open compression and lifting the rear wheel on brake.

On shocks i use only the first half of the stroke but with the 90Nm on the exit of turns it squat and run wide....🤔


With both andreani and ohlins with 100Nm every little bump upset the bike or make it loose traction

Maybe i have to remove a lot of shims 😂😂

I've found oil level tricky and tedious and its annoying how there isnt a standard for fork oil weights across the industry. Like others have said, completely draining usd forks is also tricky and the residual oil buggers up your oil levels. Aside from a spring or oil change, nowdays I focus on other jobs and give the forks to specialists.

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48484141031_5f48b42007_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2gSnTY4)

Not that I think you wouldn't believe me without a pic, just wanted to make sure I wasn't spreading disinformation!  [laugh]

That's fully extended condition, and I regularly use that amount of travel ~125mm.
every ride I've got a rather severe driveway dip and have to also go up and down a curb.
At full hard bottom, it'll push that oring all the way down, so 147-3=144mm travel.

Oh, previous spring info was wrong, I'm using one linear 0.83 and one 0.62/0.86 OEM dual rate.

SBK cartridges are really nice, didn't have to do any mods to get that travel.
I did check very carefully to make sure they didn't serve as a bottoming stop..... there's not a lot of free space.
And there's not many 17x0.15 shims left on the base valve.

----------------edit-----------------

Forgot, swingarm is extended 50mm longer than OEM steel too.

No problems, Speeddog, I trust you 100% :-)

I´ve never checked max travel of the Showa SBK cartridges, and beeing not the tallest of persons I´ve tended more towards keeping my bikes low. Having said that, I do know that some of the steel cartridges used on Monsters etc, and also on earlier SBK´s, do not have any excess travel. I once had to do a lot of minor machining to avoid the cartridge bottoming before the forks when installing a K-tech piston / shim kit in a monster fork. In the end I got about 118 mm and fork tubes bottoming first, if memory serves. 

I´m also slightly surprised the stanchion does not bottom against the top nut until 140+ mm. Are the fork legs stock components?

Some advice to folk reading this (once again). Although quite capable of learning the dark art of suspension tuning and quite adept at setting up suspension for a rider, I pull the forks/shock out and send them to people like speeddog and hpd, Traction Dynamics, or whoever specializes in this area. If youre time poor or busy specializing somewhere else it makes sense.

My local guy is brilliant (Dave and Co at Kroozetune, Melbourne) and he will machine up and implant whatever is required to turn manky old oem Marzocchi's into functioning forks. It will cost me a grand for plug and play, perfect fit, outwardly oem forks for my M750, but that's reasonable here like a 500-600 buck job in the States. SBK forks alone here in Australia could cost 500+ before any work, let alone triple clamp, wheel, brake and axel compatability issues. It is definitely worth paying a specialist as it usually saves time and money in the long run.

When you change 1 step springs or add/remove one shims can be better or worst, but when you do a big change or swap entire fork or shocks is more a start of a project that will require time and money to be completed  [bang]
Obvusly the help of an expert is essential to start near as possible to the end of the project ;D

When a ohlins broker tell that the shocks will be tailored to the driver wheight it mean that ohlins shim and spring it or that simply the broker change the spring?

Did you reshim the shocks yoursef? There are some instruction manual or at last a part list with the internal component drawings?

Edit: monster >2002 inner and outer tube are about 30mm short than <2001 and sbk, so if you put a sbk cartridge iside you endup with about correct fork lenght but longer travel unless the rebound valve hit the compression one first

Edit2: in this configuration you alse reduce the bushings overlap. Is possible thay you increase the already horrible sticktion and outer tube anodizing wear?

The uppers are the ones that came on my '02 S4, which I bought brand new straight from a dealer.
I hard-black anodized them in 2010 (which BTW still looks great, no fading at all, and they've seen a lot of sun).
The lowers are from a customer S4R that I bought after he yardsaled it, no evidence of anyone being inside them prior.
SBK cartridges from '01 748 forks bought here on the DMF from EEL, IIRC they were virgin internally as I had to drill the peen marks to get the base valves out.

All of the extra travel comes from the SBK cartridges, they're longer overall than the S4/S4R yet have barely enough travel to work with the shorter upper and lower.
So it's just that they're extended further.
I had no idea of it until I did a dry fit, I was very concerned until I confirmed the cartridges weren't a bottoming stop, then I was super chuffed!  [drool]
I spent the late 70's early 80's on MX bikes, ~last half of which was on 12" travel suspension, and I'm about 185cm tall, so even 140mm+ feels quite stingy.  [laugh]

IME, when they say 'tailored to your weight', yes, it's only that they fit a spring that they think is appropriate for your weight.
I think some Ohlins vendors will revalve, but that's at added cost, not within the normal 'retail' price.

Also, IME, aftermarket and even OEM Ohlins shocks have too much damping, especially on high speed compression.
I think partly due to it being slightly safer than too little damping, and for aftermarket shocks they've got no idea what folks will do with them.
The aftermarket Ohlins for my S4 and the OEM M900s Ohlins I've run on my M750 were both really stiff as delivered.
Customer's S4Rs same way.
One can adjust the knobs, but those are low speed only (unless it's a top shelf one that has hi/lo compression adjusters).
That results in a bouncy/sloppy ride that's still too harsh on sharp-edged bumps, and that's not much of a solution.
I've reshimmed Ohlins and dramatically improved the response to sharp bumps.

There are parts diagrams floating around, searching for 'ohlins shock manual' or similar and then examining the results will get you those.

I've got a set of 2001 Monster forks off a M900s, and they're the long outer/long inner/short travel version Showas.
They've only got 113mm of travel.
Really pissed me off, as I hard black anodized the outers and assembled them with the best RaceTech gold valves before I realized that shortcoming.  [bang]


The long travel forks I concocted have TiN coated lowers that had 32k miles on them when I fitted them, and I've put 22k miles on them since.
Will confirm today, but the TiN still looks good from memory.

I use the SKF seals that are not sticky and are long wearing, they don't seem to have any catchy trade name.
The rubber compound was developed to survive in oilfield drilling application, which is about the nastiest environment possible short of some saltwater beach hell.
The motocross boys love em, and they usually favor the natural green color (personally I think it's awful  [puke]).
Be sure to specify the black version when buying, unless you REALLY like all shades of green.

Yes, i am a big fan of skf, black version, since about 2 years.
I am on my third fork outer tube (40kkm) because of anodizing wear, no problem with the inners.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/jstj8crxyw2yjo1/20190602_182320.jpg?dl=0
Last time i rework the bushing lands like modern mx forks to try to get better mileage [bang] and less sticktion.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/hfrpgd8k28a4l3l/20190616_135945.jpg?dl=0

I agree with the sloppy bouncy than harsh on bumps settings on both ohlins and andreani.
The last one suggested me to remove one of the 3 0.15mm compression shims.
After that i will look at the shocks (feel bad to open a new shocks that take 2 month and half to arrive directly from ohlins [bang] set to my weight :) [bang])

Appreciate all the contributions to this thread. Good reading and the information really assists potential decisions about suspension tuning. [thumbsup]

Hello,
back home again after a few days of vacation with wife, daughter and dog :-)

As mentioned, lots of interesting info available from the contributors in this thread (as in many others, of course). I would like to know more about this (from Dadouzzous post):

Last time i rework the bushing lands like modern mx forks to try to get better mileage bang head and less sticktion.

Exact what is this rework? I may have an idea, but some more details would be much appreciated.

Anyway, to comment on some of the above:

I do my shock work myself, but only started doing that after I´d attended the suspension seminars at reaction Suspension (York, UK).
Even so, some time ago I noticed a small oil puddle under the bike. I was worried this might come from my new motor, and spent some time looking for the source (in vain, which was a good thing, at least as far as the motor is concerned).  Then, at one of the track days, Hanna (member of the track day committee) pointed out it actually came from the shock.  Back home again, I disassembled the shock, changed the seal etc in the seal head of the shock,and put everything back together. All nice and clean, also during (and after) the next track day. However, arriving at the next track for the next track day a week later, I was greeted by this sight:

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48503267196_8c82b5877d_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2gU4Vvw)20190728_204358 (https://flic.kr/p/2gU4Vvw) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

Much worse than the previous leak ….. The shock is now apart again, no obvious problem visible, so I suppose I manage to mangle the seal ring when I put it all together. Since this shock has been apart many times, and the object of much procedure experimentation on my part, I´ve ordered a pre-assembled seal head from Öhlins; seal, support ring, bushing, the lot, so that´s one variable removed. Shaft polished, and extreme care on assembly, fingers crossed …. Knowing roughly what you´re doing does not help if you don´t do it well. Good thing it was my own shock, and not on someone elses bike at  track day in Spain. Doing this kind of work on a spare-time basis does have it´s risks.

Anyway, all the experimentation has resulted in a shim set-up much softer than the stock 749R; I´ve removed 3pcs 38x0.2 (out of 5) and one 36x0.20 (from 2), and reduced clamp shim diameter (the shim at the bottom of the stack, defining the ”bending diameter” of all the other shims) from 19 to 18 mm.
The shock on the M800 has also been softened, by removing one each od 38 and 36 x 0.20 mm shim, and reducing clamp shim from 18 mm to 16 mm.
From this you may deduce I agree on the view that the Öhlins shocks are on the stiff side as they come …    

For my needs, this shock (and fork along the same lines) work well enough on track, I never worry about bumps when I ride this bike on track.

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48503628362_135d33d893_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2gU6LSw)67882104_10220237295433533_8103222915127836672_o (https://flic.kr/p/2gU6LSw) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

Old man, doing his best to look like a track rider. It´s the fun you have that counts :-)
  
 

I think he's 'barrel-shaped' the surface under the bushing to avoid tube flex induced cocking of the bushing.

Sounds plausible.

I think Gareth (of Reactive Suspension) showed a fork leg where the buhing recess had a higher, rather narro center band on which the bushing was supposedly "swivelling"; I suppose that would be the same basic idea.

BTW,
I´ve also used the SKF seals since 2013, don´t think I´ve had to change one due to leakage.

The M900s OEM Ohlins had 3 of 38x0.20 and 2 of 38x0.25.
I think someone grabbed a setup sheet from Iveco or DAF.

That´s really stiff. One 0.25 shim equals 1.96 0.20 shims, so that would equal almost 7 pcs. 0.20 shims. Pretty stiff ... my DU5034 (for the Monster RS, I think) had 2x38x0.20, and 2x36x0.20, not nearly as stiff as what you had (also depending on the rest of the stack, and particularly the clamp shim), but still too stiff for me.   

It´s almost 2 years ago now that I attendedd the suspension dyno semainar at Reactive Suspension; it was very enlightening to actually get numbers on whatever change you made. The dynos have become more "affordable", but still beyond my means ....

Hi, i'am also in vacation with my family so i write now that my son is sleeping  :)

Yes, i reshaped the bushing land in a barrel shape instead of stock cilindrical.
The idea is to leave the bushing free to rock in the land to tolerate fork flex and freeplay.
I read some advice in a forum long time ago, maybe from an australian guy (terry hay?).
When i see the worn outertube and a perfect bushing with only minor worn on the edge i decided to try.
He write to do an interference plug on a lathe and cut the land at 1' degree leaving 8mm flat portion in the center.
My lathe was probably build before the II world war  :) and is not very accurate so i build a conical plug and rounded the land with a hand file, slowly and continuosly cecking with a dial gauge:)
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ol8z22orea20j7o/20190605_194604.jpg?dl=0
I removed up to 0.07mm of radius on the external part of the land and that finished it with sandpaper.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/j9hect2a0ek8pui/20190616_114206.jpg?dl=0
The stiction became 4-5mm instead of 15-20mm (but i also swap springs and cartridge and regreased the seals..), for the anodizing wear i have to wait this winter to see if is better.

I'm the only one that have found this type of wear/sticktion (on a sraight and aligned fork)?
Here most of the service change oil and don't even take a look inside [bang]

The shocks has about 500km so i don't have to remove the seal head [thumbsup] but i haven't found any manual so i don't know the level of separator (du321 is a monotube) and the proper filling procedure [thumbsdown]

Very general manual:
http://www.smartperformanceinc.com/ohlinsttxshockservice

I have a set of Showa forks for service, that turned into trying to get one set of good forks out of two forks; can just hope the other fork will be in better condition.

These forks had worn thru the chrome on the stanchions, presumably where the lower bushes load them the most:

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48510535046_a399576cdf_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2gUHaZh)2019-06-29 12.19.38 (https://flic.kr/p/2gUHaZh) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

My more experienced suspension friends tell me this is a common occurrence, even though I have not come across it before.

I had not really looked at the outer legs for internal wear, but they show the same type of wear patches from the bushings. I suppose if I have to re-use legs like these, I´d have to turn them 90° .... I´ll see what my contacts might have to say about this problem.

  

And here´s one for the monotubes:

https://www.scribd.com/document/98723156/Ohlins-General-Workshop-Manual

Don´t know how it works with membership etc; I think I have a pdf if you send me a pm. 

Single disc bike?

Huge mileage?

Prolonged running with twisted forks?

All of the above?

I've not seen that, even on some high mileage bikes.
I'm suspecting some sort of extenuating circumstances there.

Thanks for the manuals, now the only info missing is the separator level that should be in the settings card.....maybe i can measure it when i open it. Edit: not possible, the shaft should be removed before the head [bang], i will search..

About the fork in the pic i can only imagine the outer tube worn :-X
My last one become a pile of crap in 10kkm with inner tube almost perfect.

I've also found that on <2002 fork tube can't be set parallel.
They can be set in the same plane (with glass plate etc) but when you tight the upper plate clamp it act on very thin part of the tube, deforming it about 0,2mm per side.
The result is a A shaped fork tube with about 0,5mm out of parallel for every 20cm of lenght.
Maybe ducati has solved this issue in rev b or c of fork plates.(they also increased the axle thickness in b or c)
Or maybe that working on aerospace market i simply became to picky :)

 ;D [thumbsup]

Not sure, really .... the forks came off a bike (900 SSie, double disc) which I know was written off by the insurance company after an excursion beside the road. Not obviously bent, no idea about mileage.
Edit: One more strange fact: The worn spots are about where the lower bushings will be with the forks fully extended. I would have expected them somewhat lower ....

In fact, the fork was one of the first modified as per "Showa Blues", with parts designed and manufadtured by me and my pal in 2007 or so. Not sure if they have been apart since (until now).  

Anyway, I will keep an eye on this condition in forks I do from now on.

Check the manual, they inform how to set the separator piston.

I´m not sure I fully understand the out-of-parallell situation ... but it´s late here now. Maybe tomorrow ...

Don't worry, is also late here in italy :) i will retry tomorrow to find the poor man internal reservoir shocks separator level [thumbsup]
[thumbsup].

I try to reword the parallel tube issue ;D
The problem is that on 2002 bikes with fork cap flush to the upper triple tree clamps, the clamps crush the tube even with 15-18Nm and so the fork legs became out of parallel

Edit: i know, i know, my english is crap :)

A general question about front and rear springs rate balance:
How do you prefer?
Ohlins base rate are 9Nm Front and 100Nm rear.
S4rs for example match 8.5 front with 105 rear

I tryed 8.3 front and 90 rear and seems little understeering

Sorry for late response, I was a week with wife on Sicily (trying just a little of my evening-course italian on unsuspecting local people....) and some projects around the house before winter sets in....

Anyway, I have no formula for balance, I just try to set reasonble sag numbers and take it from there (and experience, If it´s a bike I´ve worked on previously). Don´t remember your weight, think it was about the same as me at 60-some kilos w/o gear; if so I´d say that 8.3 front / 90 rear would be on the soft side. If you feel understeer, that might well be rear ride height too low (by linkage adjustment and / or excessive sag).

For some reason, heavier riders seem able to "bounce" the suspension by standing on the footpegs to see if the suspension sags equally fron and rear, but when I try that, nothing seems to happen ..... which is also "equal", but not very informative. It is otherwise a good indication if the balance is good or not.

As mentioned, I have 95 rear and about 8.5 to 9.0 front on the M800, which is a slightly lighter bike thn the 900 despite beeing basically the same bike (I think mine is appr. 168 kg dry, but will measure more exactly soon). For me, that works very well on street and track.

Perfetto, quindi posso rispondere in italiano? :)
Last week i was in china and buyng the (right ;D)food was very difficult with the local language  ;D

Anyway I have to discard the 100Nm because my ass can't tolerate it anymore (with stock valving & bad road & no available compr register)
I weight 62 with gear and the bike 185 with full tank ( 91f 94r)

I have also reduced the fork compression damping and plan to reduce oil height

Did you think that can be a problem if the oil level is lower than the little hole for lower bushing lubrication?

No, usiamo l'inglese per qualche altro anno, e scusate per il ritardo :-)

This discussio has twisted and turned  bit, so I´ve lost track a little bit. I´m happy to discuss suspension, but in order to get bac to the No-monster topic, maybe it´s better to move this discussion to my other "live" thread, "waste of money", which is about the M800 anyway ... OK? That hread has also branched out quite a bit, but at least it´s the right kind of bike. 

Well,
Over here riding season is over for most of us, time for an update on the HYM1100 track bike.
I have been waiting for one of my pals here to get his dyno up and running, and it has been so for some time now. Since it measures consistently, but with notoriously low (or honest …) numbers, we needed to get some different bikes tested in order to have some reference points.

I´ve also not managed to get the graph viewer SW sorted on my computer, so I only have a screen-dump of the curves from my M800, the HYM1100, and my pals 999r. For refernce, the 999r gave 142 hp on a Dynojet at a major Duc dealer.

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48933315328_6722df3f07_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2hy52Qu)Dyno plot (https://flic.kr/p/2hy52Qu) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

The curves for the 2V bikes are pretty typical 2V curves, I think, and I would really like to be able to ”extend” the torque curve  for maybe another 500 revs, which woud really help the power. I´m told, that´s a major undertaking, so maybe later ….

For reference, I´ll show the curves froma header length test I did on the M900 some years ago (it has been on this forum in another thread, but it´s relevanther, I think). The M900 had HC pistons, ported heads (origin and quality unknown) and the usual intake and exhaust mods:

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48930509143_2d34f9ba3d_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2hxPDDZ)Header length comparo_M900 (https://flic.kr/p/2hxPDDZ) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

Interestingly, the header lengt changed the shape of the torque curves, but not the engine speed for max power, or power level, significantly. I had planned to test bare 700 mm headers as well, but that would have melted the rear tyre. I don´t really know why the 700 mm with collector and silencer is significantly better.

If I can find time and opportunity this winter, maybe I´ll try short headers and open megaphones, just to see (and hear …) what happens 😊

Thats a really good example of moving the torque curve around the rev range. Street Vs Track. [thumbsup] It reminds me of short Vs long inlet manifold tests.

Nice illustration of tuning to win, not for numbers.

Well,
numbers are fun, passing someone is more fun :-)

Anyway, I´ve had some input from members on the german forum, where 2V projects like this one are more common than here. It indicates that the inlet ports, even when "conventionally" ported, are limiting power at high revs. This also makes me wonder if this is the reason that max power revs are so similiar at the M900 test, regardless of header length.

So, as a long-term project, I´ll look at doing a pair of down-draft heads. Long-term .... 

Hello, everyone.

Winter over here (more like constantly bad weather), so time to attend to some projects.

I´ll see if I can get the ST2 cams installed in the M800 with standard pistons, and when the heads are off, I´ll do some porting as well (for better or worse ...) and decided I needed a work station, so this is my prototype (height adjustment and vacuum connection still pending):

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49184122231_5a0dc54f1c_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2hWetZr)20191207_171734 (https://flic.kr/p/2hWetZr) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

With the M800 motor on the engine stand, I will take the opportunity to test the leak down tester, so all the tips I got earlier are very much appreciated now.

Kind regards,
Torbjörn.       

 [thumbsup]

Who is helping you with the porting?

Well,
I have some plans to do it myself. If that will be a help or not, remains to be seen .....

I will do some testing with welding and cutting on this cylinderhead, which is ruined anyway, and take it from there.

First actual work will be on the M800 heads (depending on what I learn as described above), and a bit further down the road (if I do not screw up big time) will be a set of down-draft(ish) heads for the HYM1100 motor.  If that could help to maintan the torque for another 500 rpm or so, power would benefit quite substantially.

So, it will be a process of doing, (hopefully) learning, and finally getting some useful hardware.

As someone cynically put it, any tuning can be considered a success as long as you do not lose more than 25% of what you started with .... I hope to better that, at least :-)     

 [laugh]

You trying DP or Evo cams? Maybe Kaemna 47mm inlet valves?

It'sa,bit of a long-term project (aren't they all ....), the m800 heads beeing this winters project.
The HYM heads would be for the track day bike, so hc pistons and dp cams. No big valves, at least not first time around. Time will tell :-)

Hello, all.

The track bike has been in a corner of the garage for the winter, no specific plans for changes for the coming summer. However, after some discussions on the german Ducati forum, I´ve realized I´m relly prety tight on piston ring end gaps .... I just checked what was stated in the HYM1100 workshop manual (0.2 to 0.6 mm), with 0.25 or so mm I did notthink any more about it. It is, however, quite tight, something like 0.4 would be more appropriate. So far, it seems nothing´s gone wrong, but I would like to correct this.

In order to make the work more orthwhile, I´ll try to correct the squish clearance, now at 1.2 mm. I might get away withjustremoving the 0.4 mm base gasket, but I don´t want that much compression, so a compromise would be 0.2 mm base gasket, which do not exist.

However, a few hours with a base gasket, some mm paper and CAD, I had 2 steel templates cut with high pressure water jet. hopefully, 0.2 mm sheet brass base gaskts will do the trick, and give me a 1.0 mm squish. I just have to find the time to do the job .....
 
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49569911803_b87397a8f2_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2iwjKMM)20200222_195855 (https://flic.kr/p/2iwjKMM) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr 

         

Nice job there!!

I wouldn't adjust the ring end gap. If you have adequate gap, you have adequate gap. It will get larger as the rings wear.

Be very careful with squish. I lost a motor from one being built too tight. 1.0 mm is minimum.

Depending on the nature of the tracks you visit, have you considered Kamna Sport cams Vs DP cams? Are the tracks tight or with long straights?
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49575308001_f08ab8fc44_h.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2iwNpTF)nockenvergl (https://flic.kr/p/2iwNpTF) by Tony Kokonis (https://www.flickr.com/photos/150482584@N03/), on Flickr

I guess very high quality (expensive) conrods are required for more rpm with a 71.5mm long stroke motor. Also, regarding high rpm power, even the Evo cams are milder than 900V cams, so is there an issue with controlling the mass of the large valves, or is the issue valve to valve clearance? Are Ti valves being used with the 47mm size?
What do Kamna think about this?

Yeah, I know, and I´m not panicking over the end gaps, but I´d like some more margin should the motor run very hot for some reason.
For squish, I´m aiming at 1.0 mm, I don´t bother to test the limits .... my pal once built one with 0.7 mm as part of a later-defunct E85 project. It broke down for other reasons, but you could see the piston classification "A" in the soot in the head, suppose that was as close as it gets.   

I have not considered other cams than the DP cams, basically because I have them, and I´m exploring other venues to useable power. A frien here is building a motor with Kämna cams, don´t know anything about them now except that they have lots of lift (13.something mm), which I do not think will help power unless you have really good porting. If his motor turns out very good, maybe I´l reconsider eventually.

Our tracks are (with one exception) short with short straights, and the long one has a problem with neighbours surprised by the noice from the track they moved close to ...     

Well, I suppose Carillos or similar gives some peace of mind, at least. I was also slightly surprised by the very nice running caracteristcs of the motor with some lighter rods and balanced crank/ rods/pistons assy. 

With big valves, valve-to-valve clearance will certainly be an issue, presumably timing vs. lift will always be a compromise in the overlap phase.
I suppose Ti valves are available, but have not investigated since I´ll stick with stock valves until I see a real need for something larger. I suppose I´d be too old to do something about it by then anyway .... 

Its good having the Germans so close to consult, they are doing great parts and making good power with 2 valve motors. [thumbsup]

Yes,
there are many 2V track bike projects in Germany (as well as Kämna, of course;; I have not checked in detail but presumably because of a suitable race series. One bike for sale now, not very dissimilar to mine, but based on an 848 frame, weighs in at 136.5 kg dry, motor 51.8 kg. Corresponding numbers for mine are about 162 kg / 62 kg, respectively.
That shows 1) the difference in weight between up-to-999 Ducatis, and 848/1098 onwards, and 2) the difference between a determined effort to focus on weight, and a more relaxed approach (mine).

Still is interesting to see the difference. Basically my 749-based bike has all the "normal" light parts, and compared to a 749 /999 it´s pretty light, but not compared to what could be achieved. Next time .....

Anyway, Covid19 diversion project is ongoing, ring gaps (and squishy) to be adjusted. First observation upon dissasembly: My goal to start rich / safe seems to have been achieved ...

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49829180386_5602ff39c1_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2iVeziL)20200427_194333 (https://flic.kr/p/2iVeziL) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr   

Lookin’ good otherwise!

Impressive power to weight numbers.

Just in case someone´s still interested, time for an update.

As I took the top end apart, I noticed that one of the rails of one oil ring looked a bit strange, and closer inspection showed it was half broken. Presumably the damage was done when assembling the motor; since the lower end of the liners in a HYM motor is irregular in shape, getting the pistons with rings to enter the cylinder without one or other ring end snap out and snag on the liner was very tricky, and very frustrating. And obviously not entirely successful.

Anyway, looking around for piston rings, it turned out that I could buy a set from Kämna, but they did not have them on stock, and Pistal could not deliver until mid-june.
At the time, Covid19 was at its height in many countries, including Italy, so I had my doubts about that delivery promise.
Here in Sweden, track days were cancelled with no re-start plan, so I decided to park the track bike for this year.

As it turned out, the package from Kämna arrived in late June, and track days have been carried out pretty much as usual from early july onwards.  But by then, I had already decided to park the bike, and started investigations to make a pair of down-draft cylinder heads for the HYM motor.
I found some inspiration in a thread on the Ducati.ms forum, and I´ve had a lot of info from the person behind that thread.

https://www.ducati.ms/threads/my-aircooled-1100-downdraught-heads.728303/#post-7050557     

As I have a scrapped cylinder head from a friend to try this out on, I have started to do some CAD drawings for a cylinder head jig to hold the head on the milling machine. If this test ends favourably, I will go on with the proper heads during the winter. If not, I´ll assemble the motor again as-is, more or less.

I have alredy started hoarding parts, first up a set of throttle housings from the RS Monster:

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50304680807_4ede5bec27_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2jDfD1T)2020-07-30 17.19.26 (https://flic.kr/p/2jDfD1T) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

If I decide to go on, I will probably order cams and valves (inlet +2 mm, exh. +1 mm) from Kämna.

 And, to (hopefully) avoid the assembly problem next time, I´ve made an improved (?) version of the piston ring compressor sleeve:

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49939716997_18af54e709_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2j616Zp)20200526_200917 (https://flic.kr/p/2j616Zp) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

As there will be lots of small issues to solve and parts to fabricate, and it may not be finished in time for next summer.
Further, the motor in our trusty old rain bike decided it was finally time to go (80k or so km, last 20k or so as a track bike).

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50245111028_27643d1d91_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2jxZjZJ)2020-07-22 19.52.47 (https://flic.kr/p/2jxZjZJ) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

So we are now working on some necessary modifications in order to fit the tuned ST2 motor I´ve had in the corner of the garage since that project petered out around 2012, 2013. That should hopefully be enough to be fun on our tracks, and a bit faster than the M800.

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50304475206_87ba393eea_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2jDezU3)2020-08-19 19.21.46 (https://flic.kr/p/2jDezU3) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

Hopefully, at least one of these projects will be in working order for next summer  :)

Nice update!  I’m curious to see what becomes of the cylinder heads

Well, so am I :-)

Ouch!
What happend, valve broke off?

Yes, a valve broke, after some persuation by the piston ....

It was actually a bit strange. The cam pulley had worked loose, but the nut was still in what seemed the normal position on the cam, and it was not loose, still
green-Loctite locked to the cam. It´s been there since 2007, so it did come as a bit of a surprise .... ??? 

Hello, all.

Covid still raging, I hope you are all well out there.

I suppose it would have been possible to get more done in this time, but as noted before, life is not just motorcycles.

I have progressed a bit with the down-draft project. The jig parts have arrived and worked as planned:

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50614943367_6b8cb636a6_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2k7EPgn)20201117_195912 (https://flic.kr/p/2k7EPgn) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

The machining on the scrap head also went more or less as planned:

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50830985887_d66f59b71d_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2krL6bp)20201229_183719 (https://flic.kr/p/2krL6bp) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

I´m now waiting for some 6060 or 6068 alu bar to arrive to machine the weld-in stub. I will let this take it´s time, I plan on building a flow-bench so I´ll have some numbers to guide me while doing the finishing job.

For the coming summer, I will use the heads from a bike that ran on our track days 8 or so years ago, and via several owners landed in the hands of my buddy. The were made by a then-wellknown person and ran very well. They are ported and inlet valve is +1 mm, otherwise stock. Interestingly, the exhaust ports have also been filled out slightly so the port is effectively slightly raised.

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50831052157_f5199f299d_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2krLqSZ)20210106_152233 (https://flic.kr/p/2krLqSZ) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50830220933_45fffb2ccc_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2krGaMx)20210106_152607 (https://flic.kr/p/2krGaMx) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50830228813_648c45e1e8_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2krGd8p)20210106_164717 (https://flic.kr/p/2krGd8p) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr
  
If you want to know more about this motor, you can check this thread:
https://www.ducati.ms/threads/graphs-of-the-1123cc-sc.86311/  

In the meantime, I decided to clean up the electrics and get rid of all the extra length of wires. The unused wiring was already removed, but the HYM wiring has a lot of wire in it ...

Start:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50400325466_761ff69e0f_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2jMGQQJ)2020-09-30 08.48.12 (https://flic.kr/p/2jMGQQJ) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

Intermediate:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50830156093_297fdee30e_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2krFQvB)20201225_215108 (https://flic.kr/p/2krFQvB) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

Final (hopefully):
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50830156053_b415c908da_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2krFQuV)20210102_183953 (https://flic.kr/p/2krFQuV) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

It never turns out quite as nicely as you´d hoped ...

Well, that´s about the current status. Stay well, all.
  

Thanks for the update. Interesting links.

Fascinating.  Thank you for sharing.  Soooooo glad this forum exists and that I get to pick the brains of some REALLY talented people.

 [bow_down]

Thanks for the kind words. Don´t think I´m that talented, it´s mostly a matter of having been doing this sort of things for a long time, and taking good advice where it is to be found. I hope you may find this interesting, and welcome views and discussions, for me it has much to do with learning and echanging knowledge and experiences.

Abyway, I´ve machined a stub an done some test porting:

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50959592487_1276441962_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2kD8erz)20210131_183835 (https://flic.kr/p/2kD8erz) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50959497106_4c75a461cf_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2kD7K65)20210212_094757 (https://flic.kr/p/2kD7K65) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

I have now started maching the "real" heads, somehow that made me much more nervous ..... crossing my fingers for my next workshop session :-)

For this summer, I intend to run the Proservice heads. I was a little concerned I´d have to machine the valve pockets, but I think I got away with it ....

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50959587797_141f38dc01_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2kD8d3H)Ventilfickor motor (https://flic.kr/p/2kD8d3H) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50959587772_0ce6083510_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2kD8d3h)Ventilfickor mått (https://flic.kr/p/2kD8d3h) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

The garage season is passing by very quickly, hope to have the bike in running condition when the riding season starts.

Kind regards,
Torbjörn.  

Great stuff. This reminds me of the Bye-Tye Therapy bikes downdraft heads and Carlo Benati's work.

Well. I´ve had inspiration from many sources. I´ve benn thinking about a down-draft modification for a long time, and when my bike buddy suddenly foun himself with a HYM1100 motor he had no (obvious) use for, I bought it off him and so had to gt more specific.

Before then I had got the scrp head from another Duc club friend, and having done some tig welding tests on that I´ve come to realize I´d better find a solution with as little welding as possible.

At about that time, I found this thread on "the other" forum:

https://www.ducati.ms/threads/my-aircooled-1100-downdraught-heads.728303/#post-7050785

It sort of cathalyzed my thoughts on how to do it, and even though I will do the actual mod a bit differently, the general idea is the same. Unless I screw up along the way, the general goal is also the same, and I will most likely do NO welding on the head.

Highflyer (of the thread mentioned above) has been extremely helpful with advice and comments (and patience ...), and that has saved me a lot of time, effort, and probably cost. That also illustrates my statement above; I invite comments and discussion on anything I write, in order we all learn something in the process. The learning thing is the main driver for me.

I have not tried to pick the brains of Bythetherapy and others, they are after all commercial players and (probably ...) not interested to tell too much of what they know. I try to stay on the conservative side of things, and hope I will not learn too much the hard way .... fingers crossed :-)
      

While focus currently is on getting something running for this summer, I´m tinkering on the down-draft project as well. Somehow, the new projects are more interesting than messing around with the old stuff ...

Anyway, in order to assess if I can possibly do most of the port shape, or base material, in alu and use JB Weld or similiar just to fill out any gaps, I´ve made a cast of the raw port and the test stub: 

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51003981235_94dc915d65_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2kH3JEP)2021-03-26 09.22.03 (https://flic.kr/p/2kH3JEP) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

It seems a bit tricky, but I´ll try and see if I can make a filler piece (part of the bottom bit of the cast in the picture) that I can weld to the front of the stub, and then hold it all in place with the stock flange screws. It will depend on if I can find a way to machine that odd-looking piece (without a CNC mill ...), and if it will then be possible to wiggle it all in place in the cylinder head.

Well, since there´s nothing particular going on at the moment, maybe time for an update.

The bike is up and running, with the Proservice-modified heads and the 50 mm throttle bodies.
It took a lot of work to get squish and compression where I wanted them. However, “squish” is a relative term on these heads since the combustion chambers are pretty much hemispherical. Presumably, this is done for emission reasons, since squish-type combustion chambers are worse for HC emissions. So “squish” really becomes the minimum clearance at the outer edge of the piston.
Anyway, after a lot of measuring and finally some piston machining in combination with the 0.2 mm base gasket gave a “squish” of 0.9 to 1.0 mm, and a compression ratio of 12.2:1. It´s about as high as I´m prepared to go on an air-cooled big-bore motor.

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51297561740_de195f9962_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2m9ZpVE)2021-03-10 17.22.30 (https://flic.kr/p/2m9ZpVE) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

The 50 mm throttles from the S4RS took quite a bit of tinkering to get I place. With a bit of luck (and help from a friend) I had found some inlet rubber that fitted the throttle housings exactly, but I had to manufacture the inlet stubs, and adaptors for the filters.

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51297414134_bd144fb17c_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2m9YE3J)2021-04-09 11.49.50 (https://flic.kr/p/2m9YE3J) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

In the end, it fitted quite nicely (just …) inside the frame rails; I had to re-locate the rectifier, but no big deal.

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51280446421_35e5e47064_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2m8tG8X)20210428_105114 (https://flic.kr/p/2m8tG8X) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

The actuation was more of a problem, since the wire wheel on the master throttle is permanently fitted on the throttle shaft.  In the end I managed to fix a secondary wire wheel to the primary wheel and keep it reasonably centered.

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51279704022_6ef9b34547_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2m8pTrY)20210428_101139 (https://flic.kr/p/2m8pTrY) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

The secondary throttle has a very long protruding shaft with an M8x1 thread that does not extend all the way towards the throttle housing. I did not see this as a problem, until I tried to extend the thread; since the shaft is machined flat from 2 sides, there is not enough Ø8 mm shaft left for the thread die to get a continuous grip. The resulting installation is not too pretty, but it works ….

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51299109910_63fe3d9f5f_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2ma8m9f)2021-06-30 10.45.04 (https://flic.kr/p/2ma8m9f) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

The connection between the 2 throttle bodies has to be made with a wire, there´s no way to get the shafts aligned, and one of my priorities was to keep the inlets as short as practically possible.
I´m not really sure that the 50 mm´s really do that much good on this motor, but another priority was to test this installation out this year, so I can concentrate on the downdrafts for next summer. So far, that aim has been achieved, and I hope the 50mm´s will do some good then.  

So far, there´s not been that much track day riding this year, and pretty much the first thing that happened was the annual club championship. In the race I found myself in a group of 3: one other 1100-engned bike, a 749R, and me. My bike was just slightly quicker than the other 1100 (which has hi-comps, DP cams and ported heads), but the 749R pulled a couple of bike lengths towards the end of the straight. I had only done a crude map by adjusting the values acc to the difference in injector flow values. I´m pretty sure there is something to gain here, since it felt very rich. I had hoped to get the bike dyno´d and mapped by now, but that has not happened yet. So for the next track day I have borrowed the Microtec road-tune kit from my friend. Some 0-load testing in my garage has indicted A/F values of 10 or 11:1, and adjusting that to 13:1 or so has improved the feel while trundling up and down the street in front of the house. Let´s see, and hope it will not rain 😊

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51279691007_a9613b879a_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2m8pPzz)2021-06-19 10.27.50 (https://flic.kr/p/2m8pPzz) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

For next year, I hope to have the downdrafts with with proper squish combustion chambers and these parts in them on the motor.    

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51280588830_9193fc5493_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2m8uqth)2021-05-06 09.13.15 (https://flic.kr/p/2m8uqth) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

Kind regards,
Torbjörn.

Great work! Thanks for the update. [beer]

So first a test in principle of 50mm TB's , then the downdraught version with updated heads. Exciting project. I'm very interested in the dyno results that's for sure. It will be interesting to see if there are changes in power characteristics/engine character rather than just an increase in peak/high rpm hp.
I wonder about the potential of fitting Corse Dynamics/WASP style velocity stack to those TB's.

Great work!!

Well,
it´s a test of the 50 mm TB´s and the Proservice-modified heads (ported, +1 mm valves inlet and exhaust). The ports look different to much of what I have seen, so I was curious now that I had the opportunity to test them.
As for the TB`s, I wanted to get the operation part of the TB´s tested and out of the way before I try the downdraft heads.

I have been thinking about an installation along the lines of the WASP installation, and did as much as I could while retaining the K&N filters I already have. I did not want to buy new ones that might not fit later. But the WASP installation seems to be using K&N filters, I´ll have to see if I can find those filters (conical, with a large mounting flange) ... thanks for the tip.

Kind regards,
Torbjörn.   

How are the ports different?

I posted some pics of the Proservice-modified ports earlier in the tread, and the main points as I see them:

Same diameter (more or less) at the flange as the stock port, port floor filled out and the small turn / port floor turn towards the valve made very gradual. Both valves are +1 mm.

In contrast, the Biggelaar-ported heads have the inlet at the flange taken out to approx 45 mm (if memory serves), mostly at the bottom, and not too much change close to the valve.

I don´t know which is best, but to my amateurish eyes, the Proservice approach should be the better one. I had hoped to have dyno´ed the bike by now, but is has not happened, so I have had my first attempt at a road-tune mapping (at load) at a track day earlier this week, using the Microtec equipment (pic above).

The first results inidcated my finger-in-the-air map for the 50 mm throttles with the bigger injectors was wildly rich also at bigger throttle openings and higher revs, at points around 20% rich. I hope a proper A/F at around 12.8:1 will give some results power-wise , but you really need a dyno session to really tell if / how things have changed.

Well, that´s another summer done, and considering the circumstances with Corona and so on, it´s been a good summer as far as track day riding is concerned.

The next few trackdays after the club championship I ran the Microtec road-tune kit on the track bike, and it works really well. Of course it has it´s drawbacks as well, since you can choose any one out of maximum 3 of pre-defined AF values in any of the ECU map throttle / RPM points. So any mapping will just be as good as the AF values chosen, but it´s a very good start. Unfortunately, the dyno facility has not been available so far this year, so I may have to be content with the bike running well, no idea just what the engine work may have resulted in. It could be worse.

The starting behaviour of the bike has also improved; the Microtec ahs starting enrichment maps that can be manipulated, and I have leaned them out pretty extensively. This, in combination with an external quick-connect starting battery to help the on-board Li-Ion battery in the morning with a cold motor has helped immensely.

There was a problem with ignition cables and CF belt covers; there was quite a bit of sparking-over between the cables and the covers. Since the originals are so expensive I´ve tried to find an alternative, but in the end I gave in and bought new cables for the cables on the cover side. However, upon investigating all the part numbers for the various cables, it turned out that Duc part # 67110221A cost “just” approx. EUR22, while all the others were approx. EUR 65 or so. Probably someone at Ducati made an error, since the very normal cable on the other side is approx. EUR 65 …. 
Since I don´t particuarily care for the CF covers, I put on the originals, not so pretty but not electrically conductive.

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51445391971_66cb90f452_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2mo45GK)2021-08-16 15.30.41 (https://flic.kr/p/2mo45GK) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

As already reported, I´ve had problems with the STM slipper clutch, slipping in both directions. However, the bike is really hard to ride on the twistier parts of a track with an ordinary clutch; any curve that need transiting to a downshift from an acceleration mode requires extreme caution with the clutch and throttle. Let the clutch out too soon, and / or with too low engine RPM, ant the rear wheel will send you pogoing towards the outside of the curve. So I decided it was time to give the STM another try.  Luckily, I have two similar clutches, one older that used to work perfectly on the old M900, and the newer one that started acting up halfway inte the season a couple of years ago.  As I laid out the parts side by side one detail stood out: The special steel plate that goes between the clutch basket and the slipper hub was worn on the old, and prisitine on the new one. Very likely the mechanic had forgotten the instruction from STM: “Start with a friction disc” and started with a steel disc as per normal Ducati practice. That will let the steel disc hang up on the stepped special plate on the STM, reducing spring pressure on the disc pack. I will have to have a word or two with that mechanic ….. anyway, it seemed to work well enough on these last two track days of the year.

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51504911445_1f39f0b832_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2mtj8Lz)20210823_184927 (https://flic.kr/p/2mtj8Lz) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

I have also added two teeth to the rear sprocket. On the advice of a fellow 2V rider, I had chosen final gearing to give (almost) the same overall gearing in 6th with the present close-ratio box as with the older wide-ratio box. With this gearing I almost never used 6th, and felt fine on the twisty track. It will be interesting to see how that will work out on the faster tracks next year.

I was due to visit the fastest track in Sweden, but they are also the toughest on noise. Having measured my bike on several tracks this summer, and seeing a worst of 98 dB(A), I decided to stay at home, they have a very sophisticated measuring system and a 95 dB limit. Actually, they have a “fill the bucket” system, with a limited amount of noise during each hour. Make a lot of noise the first 10 minutes, and no-one rides fir the next 50 minutes …. I did not want to risk that so I stayed at home. One project for the winter will be to try to add a pre-silencer while keeping headers equal-length without getting too long (while keeping the 2-1 layout, since I like that).

Last summer I did not ride the bike, Corona and piston ring problem (that mechanic again ….), but the summer before that I still had the chatter problems. To try another approach, I modified the compression pistons to get more port area and less “shim stick area” (narrower seal surfaces).

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49054376431_64012421cd_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2hJLv5T)20191111_213231 (https://flic.kr/p/2hJLv5T) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

I also went from a shim stack with a cross-over shim to one with a pre-load shim (a thicker ring shim and thinner centering shim next to the piston face shim). This pre-loads the shim stack, basically similar to how the suspension springs are installed with preload.
I also renewed the swing am bearings. They were not seized, but they sure were not pretty … another basic issue that gets overlooked when “bigger” projects gets all the attention.

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51281162949_ef72e80f3d_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2m8xn8T)2021-04-18 10.55.45 (https://flic.kr/p/2m8xn8T) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

Anyway, for whatever reason, there´s not been a hint of chatter this summer. Maybe I´ve just been slower, but not so slow as was sufficient to get the chatter going previously. So, suspension will stay the same for next year.   

I have been very unhappy with the VERY primitive mounting of the dash, and since it turned out to be about as much work to make a frame for the dash as to put the top fairing on as well, that´s what I did. In the end, it turned out to be a 4-day operation in the workshop of my pal, and I may need to adjust the position later, but it has worked OK without being in the way or anything. I may get another one later, but it will stay for now, hopefully with some paint next summer.                 

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51503970541_9bc7110961_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2mtej56)Sviestad 1 (https://flic.kr/p/2mtej56) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

A couple of weeks ago, the metereologists (don´t know if I got that spelling right … ) told us that the coming Friday would be the last warm day of the summer …. So I took the opportunity to take the M800 for a spin on the road, for a change. It turned out to be a really nice trip, ant the met´s were about right.

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51503958916_9892f89e63_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2mtefBE)Sensommar (https://flic.kr/p/2mtefBE) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr     

Well, that´s it for now. Back to the workshop 😊

Thanks for the update.
Yeah, I like a slipper clutch on the track but not on the street

The STM is not bad on the road, first time I thought I'd been fooled .... but I rode a friends 900ss with another make slipper. It was like beeing back in my old SAAB 96 with the free-wheel action. Not nice at all ....

Thx for writeup.

Where did you buy ignition cables?
Had the same problem on VE cover side,
Biscaya charged me 85 EU...

Biscaya. It's just that only part #  with the semi-sensible price.

Looking forward to further updates [thumbsup]. Thanks again for sharing.

Have you booked in some dyno time?
Any thoughts on how the 50mm TBs feel? Any difference in throttle response or corner exit? Or was the difference only in top speed on the straights?

You´re welcome, I hope you are not the only one to find this at least slightly interesting.

I have not booked any dyno time; the one where I could do the dynoing so far has not been available for a while, and the other one where I asked has not bothered to respond. I might skip that, since I have a lot of other things to do :-)

I can´t really comment on the 50 mm TB´s other than that (at the end of the summer ...) the bike was running very well, WFO on the track as well as trundling thru the pits. My main aim for this summer as fas as the TB´s are concerned was to get the basic function working: Throttle actuation, basic mapping with the bigger injectors, etc. From that perspective, I´m happy with the results so far.     

At least one more person is interested ;D  I'm sure there are others.

 [thumbsup]

How time flies …. For various reasons I have not run the bike since 2021, one reason being somewhat disappointing dyno results, another me spending a lot of time transplanting my tuned ST2 motor into the SSie frame of our rain bike.

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52377907482_d7d13716de_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2nNst5o)2022-05-08 11.05.13 (https://flic.kr/p/2nNst5o) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

It´s almost the same motor, but a lot of small things that should fit, didn´t without modification of some sort, like the rear header that suddenly interfered with the new crankcase:

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53063543837_f173cd1168_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2oR3wSR)20220215_154120 (https://flic.kr/p/2oR3wSR) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

However, most time consuming was adapting the ST4S loom to the bike, in order to use the Nemesis / Microtec ECUs on the bike:

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53064634608_f901179e8a_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2oR988f)20201027_154413 (https://flic.kr/p/2oR988f) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

In the end, the bike was ready for the start of the 2022 season, and I ran it at some track days thru May and June, adjusting suspension, and doing some on-track mapping. Unfortunately, during one such session, an overly enthusiastic Aprilia V4 rider decided to overtake 2 riders behind me at the end of the main straight, forgetting about the 90° right-hander at the end of the straight. Further, instead of taking the escape, he decided to try making the turn, but only partly managed the turn, but managing very nicely to torpedo me just exiting the turn. The ones he overtook estimated the speed differential to be something like “at least 70 kmh”, I just remember a dull “thud” and suddenly seeing my own feet against the sky.

All things considered, it ended far better than it might have, but the bike needs quite a bit of repair work, and I spent 2 nights in hospital due to some diplopia. I was subjected to al sorts of head scans etc., but the found nothing, whatever that might mean …

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53063512257_beefdac505_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2oR3nun)2022-07-09 10.48.32 (https://flic.kr/p/2oR3nun) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52379076653_8e09acae54_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2nNysCv)2022-07-04 14.20.38 (https://flic.kr/p/2nNysCv) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

Anyway, this left me with just the M800 to ride for the rest of the summer.

So, back to the HYM1100. After the track day season, I did get to dyno the bike, first with the Proservice / 50 mm TB combo, then (due to disappointing results) with the Biggelaar heads and stock TBs (with slightly less, but still disappointing results).

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53064289974_6814945325_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2oR7mFh)HPD1100 power (https://flic.kr/p/2oR7mFh) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

I do not have an explanation for this, other than that the various parts thrown together did not harmonize very well, and that I had turned the piston tops down slightly to lower compression a little. Which does not really explain the dyno result with the Biggelaar / Stock TB results, which were markedly worse than last time.
One thing that I can notice is that the torque curve is “wavy”, with a low point right where max power occurs, at about 8000 RPM. Running the bike with just the headers increased power by approx. 6 HP, so there´s something to be had by getting inlet and exhaust systems work im harmony with the rest of the motor.
At that point, I decided to not run the bike again until I had the downdraught heads on the bike, and that is now my main aim for the coming winter.  

For reference, below some flow numbers as measured on my flow bench:

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53066299583_14e9f5a948_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2oRhE4H)HYM_DS Flow measurements (https://flic.kr/p/2oRhE4H) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

On might think that the heads with the higher flow numbers would yield the highes power, and in an "optimized" combo the highest flowing heads might well have the highes power potential, but in this case it did not turn out to be the case. In fact, the "best" heads (Pro-service) with the biggest (50 mm) throttles turne out to show the lowest power on the dyno. It´s important to remember that the flow bench can only tell you what is most, not what is best. At least I hope that I have learned someting from this that I can use later.       

However, since I did not want to torture the M800 for another full track season, I decided to get the HYM motor running again. Which, hardly surprising, turned out to be more work than I had anticipated.

Last winter I had the Biggelaar heads skimmed 0.5 mm, in order to get a more squish-band type of combustion chamber:

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53064504345_ba55219e1c_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2oR8spk)2023-05-24 16.31.25 (https://flic.kr/p/2oR8spk) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

This, in combination with the Pistal pistons, gave a CR of about 13.5:1, which I found a bit over-optimistic. So instead the stock pistons were dug out and adapted; to get a decent CR, I decided to delete the base gasket, but this in turn necessitated the valve pockets to be machined for clearance. It also necessitated machining the squish part of the piston to get the proper squish clearance. In the end, the CR is somewhere slightly above 11:1.

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53063532297_8c49d454ad_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2oR3trT)2023-06-18 13.22.18 (https://flic.kr/p/2oR3trT) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

I had also intended to test the ByThe cams, but that did not work out; after I had ground the closer shims down to get 0 closer clearance, I had 0.6 mm opener clearance with the thickest opener shim I had.  So that will have to wait for the next stage 😊
    

While I was at it, I did some re-shaping of the combustion chamber, basically as a “de-shrouding experiment”, checking for changes in flow numbers as I went. I did see some slight improvement when opening up the chamber slightly on the “outside turn” side, but also some loss while opening up on the cylinder wall side of the chamber, behind the inlet valve so to speak (where the modeling clay is in the pic):

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53064509075_f9f49d2b3a_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2oR8tNT)2023-05-29 15.13.45 (https://flic.kr/p/2oR8tNT) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

With all said and done, I ran the bike at the latest track days. Due to rain and slick tires the first day was all M800, and the second day was mostly spent mapping to get the bike to run properly. The map I stared with was pretty OK at high load / WOTish load, but awful in the off-throttle/on-throttle situations, making exiting turns pretty awful. However, by the last session of the day, I´d managed to sort that pretty decently, and the last turn of the day was a real joy. Sooo nice to ride the bike in at least slight anger again. I´m looking forward to the next few track days.

Kind regards,
Torbjörn.                      

Thanks for sharing. It really shows how the different ingredients of the recipe have an effect and must be compatible. Cheers.

So summer is now over, at least here, and the "garage season" has started.  As expected, the bike did not not turn out to be a rocketship, but once I got the mapping reasonably sorted, it was very enjoyable to ride, nice to be back on the bike again.

At the Mantorp track with its uphill dragstrip (there´s a shicane leading in to the straight) the GPS showed a top speed of 215 km/h, and at the 1 km straight at Anderstorp the GPS showed a best top speed of 226 km/h, corresponding to roughly 8500 rpm in 6th gear.

Anyway, first rough installation mock-up of the horizontal cylinder with downdraught cylinder head. Obviously, unless I build my own frame, there will be some compromises  to be made ....

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53221895041_0888277848_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2p638b2)2023-09-29 16.05.19 (https://flic.kr/p/2p638b2) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr      

How did the winter build go?

Well,
the winter build has not happened yet. My plan was to have the downdraught heads finished and installed for the the 2024 summer, but this will most likely not happen. The downdraft project has reached a point where I need to investigate further before I decide how to proceed. So for now, my plan is to use basically the same set-up as last year, however I want to test the ByThe cams, and the bigger throttle bodies, this time with inlets tuned acc to (yet to work out) Lotus simulation results.  After all, I need something to ride this summer 😊

A lot of time after last summer has been spent on updating the flow bench. With the downdraught heads, the flow increased sufficiently to necessitate a 4th vacuum motor to maintain the 28” H2O suction level. I´ve also realized the worth of being able to check / manipulate what´s happening inside the inlet during testing, and a remark from Ducati.ms forum friend "Highflyer" provided the push needed to actually do that. Finally, the higher flows necessitated I move to the next bigger HFM size (internal Ø 62 mm, as opposed to 50 mm), now placed in the suction pipe instead of before the inlet.

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53458385627_3e1b8c042d_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2prWczV)2023-11-23 21.19.24 (https://flic.kr/p/2prWczV) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

Another item I´ve learned, is it´s very convenient to have some method to develop the porting without ruining the actual heads in case you take a wrong turn. Here also, Highflyer provided input, as well as a post by Tony Foale on the Facebook group “Porting & Gasflowing Cylinder Heads, Manifolds and Induction Systems”: Make a plaster cast of the port / combustion chamber, and work on that.
That took a few attempts, the first attempt was a genuine “plaster disaster”, the 2nd was half OK, the 3rd (the #2 in the pics) was pretty OK, and worked very well, maybe too well, on the flow bench. I also copied Tony Foales “shim system") to set valve opening, very convenient.

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53459608824_e283c6b4ab_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2ps3tcw)20231127_143323 (https://flic.kr/p/2ps3tcw) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53459431778_0c91bc6418_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2ps2yz1)2023-12-12 09.56.10 (https://flic.kr/p/2ps2yz1) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53459614999_e787a05910_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2ps3v2Z)Gips#2_25_231230 (https://flic.kr/p/2ps3v2Z) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

Anyway, flow bench results as per below. Flow numbers are in cubic metres / hour, as that´s what Bosch uses in their conversion HFM signal / air flow , and because it´s actually a better measure on air flow than CFM as related to engine operation.     

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53459236286_0ce4d0720c_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2ps1yss)Flow numbers_240112 (https://flic.kr/p/2ps1yss) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

It has been my target to see what flow is possible while keeping port dimensions as small as possible, and the “best” Plaster#2 port is remarkably “simple”.

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53459695854_73989828c8_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2ps3V53)2024-01-01 16.00.49 (https://flic.kr/p/2ps3V53) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53458465632_72c875a4d8_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2prWBnj)2024-01-01 15.57.34 (https://flic.kr/p/2prWBnj) by torbjörn bergström (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125016045@N02/), on Flickr

On the other hand,  it´s important to remember that the flow bench can only tell what´s more or less, not what´s better or worse. So it´s important to try to learn more, and I think Darin Morgan has a lot of good information in his Youtube videos, not least on the subject of wet flow, not much info to find on that, and not possible to test in my flow bench. 

Next thing to do will be another plaster model to try to translate as much as possible (within “aluminium limits” ) from the “Plaster#2” results.   Ideally, I would like to avoid any welding, but maybe it will be at least a tempting alternative …. On of the decisions delaying progress. Or at least further action 😊

Well, that´s it for now, I think.
Kind regards,
T

Thank you for sharing a fascinating journey. Appreciate it.

 :o :o :o :o :o

+1 [thumbsup]

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