Ducati Monster Forum

Moto Board => Tech => Topic started by: Curmudgeon on October 08, 2011, 04:57:26 PM



Title: 2011 M796 ABS Cold Start Issue
Post by: Curmudgeon on October 08, 2011, 04:57:26 PM

Looking for feedback and enlightenment from M796 owners who have the same issue. Others need not apply.  ;)

Since about 500 miles my 796 does not start on the first try as it did when new. It now has 1,200 miles and has had its ECU adaptive functions and TPS reset at the first service at 900 miles three days ago. No codes present or stored, all systems and sensors functioning and all parameters nominal.

After leaving the bike for a day or so, it takes 15 - 20 cranks with maybe 5 - 10 key (ECU wake-up cycles) before it will run and maintain 1,200 RPM. Initially it fires once, RPM to 400, and quits. Finally after ~ 15 attempts it catches. It takes no throttle until it's running. Neither my dealer, who is good, nor Ducati tech are familiar with this issue.

Normally after I go for a ride, I clean up the bike, top up the tank and pop on a Battery Tender Jr. until it's "green". Fuel is non-ethanol 93 (M+R/2) and/or 260 GT 100 unleaded racing fuel. I top up tanks to reduce condensation as I always have but have left an air gap between the fuel and filler neck as per the manual. (Since my first service, the evaps canister is removed, eliminating that as an issue).

When the bike has been run recently, it starts as when new, i.e., fires immediately and the RPMs go to 2,000 briefly and then settle to the nominal 1,200. When it is being "cranky" (no pun), when it finally decides to start, it fires and idles at 1,200. If I then stop it and restart, then it does the "correct" start with the revs rising to 2,000 before settling to 1,200.

Neutral switch, clutch switch, side stand switch all working. Immobilizer also fine both on the Ducati computer and because it fires once or twice before it dies.

Am I missing a protocol here or failing to observe something? Today, after sitting for two days it refused to start. I had intentionally not topped up the charge on the battery when I put it away because I'd reasoned that the ECU might have a protection circuit for higher voltages. Today it was reading 12,6 volts when I tried to start and failed.

Of course, it always starts eventually, but not only is this annoying but also can't be wonderful for the starter... :(

Any similar experiences, insights?


Title: Re: 2011 M796 ABS Cold Start Issue
Post by: elgallo73 on October 08, 2011, 05:25:48 PM
Are you using the fast idle lever?  We just hashed this it in another thread for the Monster 696 and here is what we came up with.

Insert the key and turn to the "On" position with the fast idle lever in the "Off" position, after initialization (screen shows "Monster 796" message and then reads odometer), turn the fast idle lever to the "full on" position (all the way back).  Then give it a try.  The bike should start and head upwards of 2,000 ~ 2,500 rpm.  You can then adjust as necessary to give a reasonable warm up idle speed, I usually use around 1,000 ~ 1,500 rpm.

An alternative method, which I use, particularly when it is cold outside, <60 degrees fahrenheit, is to go through the initialization procedure as described, then press "Start" while rolling the throttle back 1/4 to 1/3 turn.  The bike should start and head upwards of 2,000 rpm.  You can then move the fast idle while holding the throttle at a reasonable rpm.  Release the throttle and adjust the fast idle as necessary.

If it helps, my 696 behaved much the same way and is not too different from your 796, so these steps should work for you unless something is seriously wrong...

Hope this helps and your mileage will vary...

Regards,

Garry


Title: Re: 2011 M796 ABS Cold Start Issue
Post by: Curmudgeon on October 08, 2011, 06:06:29 PM

Thanks. Nice try. ;) The 796 is a completely different bike and has no cold start lever. The ECU obviously has totally different protocols and cold start strategies prior to the Lamda sensor being hot enough to work. This I observed on the Ducati computer.

Throttle also has zero effect until the engine is running. 696 cold start issues/procedures are well known. I'm looking for feedback on 796. M1100 and 1100 evo are also different bikes.

My 796 has no fueling issues once running, unlike the 1100's, except abrupt throttle response in 1st gear after downshifting through all the gears coming to a stop. That one can be tricky, like an accelerator pump x3. Once bitten, I'm now aware. Kevin Ash noted it in his review. http://ashonbikes.com/content/ducati-monster-796-review (http://ashonbikes.com/content/ducati-monster-796-review)


Title: Re: 2011 M796 ABS Cold Start Issue
Post by: elgallo73 on October 08, 2011, 06:33:08 PM
Sorry, my apologies, was not sure how different the bikes were and if they were similar, thought it might help...


Title: Re: 2011 M796 ABS Cold Start Issue
Post by: thought on October 09, 2011, 05:59:01 PM
no issues here for me once i got out of my break in period... but i also got termi's/ecu/air filter installed at 400 miles so that might have changed the fueling.

it did happen to me when i first got the bike though, but it's since gone away.  at around 6000 miles now... i'm also running 5w-40 rotella though, maybe try a lighter weight oil and see if that helps at all?


Title: Re: 2011 M796 ABS Cold Start Issue
Post by: Curmudgeon on October 09, 2011, 06:51:30 PM
no issues here for me once i got out of my break in period... but i also got termi's/ecu/air filter installed at 400 miles so that might have changed the fueling.

it did happen to me when i first got the bike though, but it's since gone away.  at around 6000 miles now... i'm also running 5w-40 rotella though, maybe try a lighter weight oil and see if that helps at all?

All input appreciated! At least your experience indicates that cold starting doesn't have to be an issue on 796. Would hope to avoid going to the full ECU kit as I'm retired and my pockets are not as deep as they once were, nor do I need any more "go".  ;) Passing traffic is pretty effortless. If you tell me that you also have more torque and at lower revs..., then I might need to have a word with Santa. Did you leave your db-killers in?

If you don't mind, ask your man at Trebor what he did when he set yours up, and also when he installed the kit. This one I presume? http://www.motovationusa.com/mvstore/Scripts/prodView.asp?idproduct=791 (http://www.motovationusa.com/mvstore/Scripts/prodView.asp?idproduct=791) How much additional noise from those slip-ons and air filter. I'm going deaf as is. (Not amusing.) Wear your earplugs! For too many years obviously I didn't. :(

Thanks Again!


Title: Re: 2011 M796 ABS Cold Start Issue
Post by: thought on October 10, 2011, 03:52:37 PM
just the slip ons, not the full system... db killers out and the sound isn't deafening.  once you hear it with the db killers out, you wont want to put them back in.  i also ride with earplugs all the time though.

in terms of the diff btwn the ecu/air filter with and without, it makes a immediate difference in low end smoothness.  couldnt really tell for the top end, but the bike def felt better overall... sorta feels like how it should have felt from the factory.  and i cant really tell much from the butt dyno, but like i said, it's more the smoothness than power.

and also, i installed them myself... did that along with the caswell at the same time since i had to pull up the tank to get to the ecu/air filter.


Title: Re: 2011 M796 ABS Cold Start Issue
Post by: Curmudgeon on October 11, 2011, 08:22:32 AM

Thanks "thought", Good news and bad news; all good info though.

Are we the only M796 owners here..., or are they just shy?  8)

Smoother yet would be good, but quite a ticket to get that. Your less restricted rig suggests to me also richer fueling. I know what you mean about the rumble but not sure if I could deal with no db-killers..., even if I can find my ski mask.  ;) Had an NCR pipe on my Paso Limited for a while but had to ditch it. Positively mind-numbing sound after 1/2 hour. The reverse cone megaphone sound is the one I enjoy most if it isn't too loud, particularly on the over-run...

Was your installation totally plug-and-play? Not thinking of doing the Caswell yet as I have access to non-ethanol 93 and GT 260. Will freely admit that's a PITA though. The race gas is 30 miles and the non-ethanol is 70 miles, out near the Blue Ridge Parkway. 20 gallons in race cans lasts quite a while with Stabil and I can top up the bike there if I ride that direction.

No doubt you are aware that the Sunoco on Rt. 46 just down the hill and east of your dealer carries 260 GT? I used to pick mine up there on the way home from work. So convenient then; only a 3 mile detour off I-80.


Title: Re: 2011 M796 ABS Cold Start Issue
Post by: thought on October 11, 2011, 08:47:59 AM
didnt know that about sunoco... but i live about 45 min away from trebour so that kind of kills that for me.  but thanks for the info :)

and yeah, it's def richer... duc's just come lean from the factory now for emissions.  even if you dont get the termi's i highly suggest getting some slip ons (arrow etc etc), reflashing the ecu to dp spec, and getting a k&n and cutting your airbox lid.  you save some cash going that route.

install is pretty much plug and play for the slip ons.  basically you slip off the old cans, slip on the new ones, remove the tank plastics, lift up the tank and then the ecu/air filter is right in front of you.  pop off the old ecu, pop on the new one, pop off old air filter cover/filter, pop on new one (dont forget to oil the filter before you do though, i did and had to pull everything back off in order to oil it), and you're done with the hard parts.  after you get it back together, all you need to do is cycle the ignition on and off 3 times (allow the full scrolling text to complete, then off and then on x3) to reset the TPS, set the speedometer settings back to the US settings (instructions can be found on the site or the workshop manual... removing the ecu resets it back to the stock EU settings aka KPH instead of MPH) and you're ready to ride.  if you dont want to spring for a 796 workshop manual, the pretty easy to dl 696 workshop manual works fine for those actions.  all the parts are the same between the two for those sections.

removing the headers for the full system will be a bit more annoying, but it's still within reason with hand tools.  i took a look at it as i was going to get the pipes ceramic coated but then found out that the flapper motor doesnt really let you do that unless you either a) get a 696 midpipe/duc.ee or b) just coat it anyway which will basically lock the flap in the open position and get a duc.ee

i'm in the process of selling my bike right now and i think i'll probably be taking the termi's off.  i'll post them up in the for sale section if i do, along with other random parts i have.  i'll send you a pm if i do :)


Title: Re: 2011 M796 ABS Cold Start Issue
Post by: Matiasneto on October 11, 2011, 09:11:09 AM
i have a 796 and have not had any cold start issues. when i had the original exhaust i would turn the key and press the start button and it would fire right up. Now with the termis it does the same. the only think that is kind of strange is that sometimes it will shut off when cold as soon as i downshift to a light.


Title: Re: 2011 M796 ABS Cold Start Issue
Post by: Curmudgeon on October 12, 2011, 09:38:14 AM
 
Thanks, "thought". I'd prefer right now to get a band-aid or workaround for this unless the DOW suddenly surges to 14,000.  ;) Yesterday my dealer e-mailed all my observations along with his readouts to DNA Tech. Let's see what they say. They like him a lot, so you never know. No doubt it's the cold start strategy combined with something above since all systems and sensors check out 100%.

I've recorded the procedures you listed for future reference. I get the first part, but since I'm dull sometimes, could you be a little clearer or specific about resetting the TPS? I didn't follow "then off and then on x3". Seems like you're just repeating what you said prior. Sorry... ???

I did find Raux's market reset instructions which were also not crystal-clear but could probably dope it out by trial and error. If I screw something up though, my dealer is three ugly hours from here by trailer. If I did ultimately decide to do the DP kit, I'd probably have my dealer do it as he's very quick and careful and I doubt he'd hit me for more than an hour or so and he'd do it while I wait. Interestingly, so far he's had no other 796's pull this stunt. Go figure..., unless everybody is fitting the kit at delivery or the first service.

Actually I'm OK with the look of the 796 stock cans and shields because my bodywork is silver blue and it blends. The sound is not terrible for stock either, maybe slightly "tinny". I'd frankly be OK with the stainless 696 DP cans from the "looks" standpoint. Weight couldn't be vastly different than carbon either. I'd be OK with losing the flapper as it gets warm occasionally. (Had many BMWs with heated grips before but never a heated seat!  ;))

Do you think you'll really sell your bike up there going into winter? It'll be a LOT "hotter" in April as 796 supply seems to be pretty tight. PM me anyway if you do.

If DNA comes up with zip, I'll probably give Larry Ferracci a call and see what he suggests. My dealer and Eraldo are close from their racing days, so that doesn't hurt. Only had one EFi Ducati before and that was an early 851 with one of Larry's chips and cans. Eraldo set that up from scratch on delivery and it had zip issues for four years. I only sold it because I lost my death wish.  ;)

Rubber side down!


Title: Re: 2011 M796 ABS Cold Start Issue
Post by: Curmudgeon on October 12, 2011, 10:33:02 AM
i have a 796 and have not had any cold start issues. when i had the original exhaust i would turn the key and press the start button and it would fire right up. Now with the termis it does the same. the only think that is kind of strange is that sometimes it will shut off when cold as soon as i downshift to a light.

Thanks for chiming in. How many miles on the bike when you fitted the DP kit? I don't have your cutting out issue but M1100s did from research I've done. I have the opposite issue when hot if I downshift through all the gears down to first at a stop light. If I crack the throttle, it jumps like an accelerator pump x3. I can live with it but a newbie would dump the bike if that happened to them! Otherwise, mine fuels perfectly.

Read my first post please and tell me what you do/did differently from what I wrote. I'm analysing variables. Also, how many miles on your bike now?

Thanks!


Title: Re: 2011 M796 ABS Cold Start Issue
Post by: thought on October 12, 2011, 04:50:29 PM
the 796 does surge a bit at lower revs... like when you're just toeing through traffic.  like what ash said in his review, i think it's just a 796 thing.  pretty sure getting a 14t sprocket in would get rid of it as you would just move past that rev range right away.

and for the tps reset, even if you did mess it up it would just run a bit rough till you fixed it, you wouldnt have to trailer it to the dealer you could ride it.  and really, it's pretty impossible to mess up.

just insert the key, and then turn it to starting position.  you'll see the lights turn on and the scrolling text go across your screen.  wait for that to finish.  and then turn the key to the off position.

repeat that process 3 times and you're done resetting your tps.  the old ecu's required you to go to the dealer and have them reset the tps, but the new monster ecu's do it themselves.

also, you're still pretty much in the break in period.  my bike got a lot smoother after 2k miles and just feels better and better once you get more miles on it.  it was around 4k miles that it just felt great all the time.

and for selling it... i'm going to pick up the sf848.  haha, i have a deposit down right now on it and i'm ok with trading it in but i would get a bit more selling it on my own (tax etc).  if i do trade it in the termi's would come off too so we'll see what happens ;)

havent tried that hard to sell yet, only been posting it on forums... i hate dealing with people on craigslist and would prefer to sell to a member etc.  i figure after this month i'll toss it up on ebay/craigslist and see what happens.


Title: Re: 2011 M796 ABS Cold Start Issue
Post by: Curmudgeon on October 12, 2011, 06:54:50 PM

Hello "thought",

No fueling issues like surging. It isn't an R1150 BMW.  ;) Fitted the 14T before delivery after riding a 696 demo. Clearly it was geared for EC Type Approval, not the real world. Had done this with my 600 SL back in the day, even though that bike was "tuned". The issue Ash reported I do have and many with no "old school" riding habits might not even notice. It happens mainly in first gear when hot, downshifting through the gears to first while rolling up to a red light, etc. If you then so much as crack the throttle, the bike lurches as if you'd grabbed 1/2 throttle, like an accelerator pump x3. Got my attention the first time. Now I know!  ;) Otherwise, no fueling glitches whatever. I think they mapped it that way in reaction to stalling on earlier Siemens bikes. I'd rather not have it, but I'm happy not to stall either...

I understood what you said above in the first part. Any time delay between turning the key off and then on, or time after the scrolling stops before shutting off? I didn't follow why you had said to do the three scrolling cycles twice. Did I miss something?

Actually I was more concerned about the market reset, going into the service menu and screwing up something in there!

Yes, mine's a lot smoother than it was when new already and I figured that it would get better up to ~ 2,000 miles. Smoother still and I wouldn't complain. It's still a little "gritty". Many of my Dellorto Ducatis were almost turbines. I jetted those, so maybe it's partially the lean tune on this one. If this bike spontaneously heals itself, I wouldn't gripe too much. This is my 33rd bike and 9th Ducati however, but the first which doesn't reliably start on the first crack. If the damn thing didn't have a sealed ECU, I'd just get a pal too cook a better cold start chip like the one in one of my cars.

When is the SF848 due? I just thought your timing wasn't ideal going into winter on a bike which will still be scarce in April. I understand the 7% tax scenario well. I sold expensive vehicles in NJ for 40+ years and have the scars to prove it.  :) If you go the eBay route, I'll send you some links to a few of my son's bike auctions. He writes his own HTML but should you follow his example, you still might get lucky. His success rate is pretty high. Timing though...

If DNA doesn't come up with a workaround for me shortly, I'm wondering whether there is a way to order the DP 796 ABS ECU but use the stainless cans they market much cheaper for the 696. I presume the air filter pieces DP offers in all those kits is the same? MUCH cheaper!

Thanks again!


Title: Re: 2011 M796 ABS Cold Start Issue
Post by: thought on October 12, 2011, 07:18:41 PM
just turn it off after the scrolling ends... you might not even need to wait for the scrolling but i did it just in case.  and sorry if it was confusing, i meant to just do the on/off cycle 3 times.

changing the US/EU setting is a piece of cake too, it's explained well in the workshop manual which is generally what is repeated here.  once you get to the service menu you'll see how easy it is.  you can test it out right now if you have the instructions.

getting the ecu direct from ducati is like $900... they overcharge like crazy to make you pay for the whole kit instead.  if you're just interested in the ecu, you can always have it reflashed to dp spec for $250.  make sure you cut your air filter lid and get a k&n if you do reflash as i've heard that the new ecu settings are based more on the greater amt of air flowing in rather than the more open cans.  i know proitalia used to offer a free reflash when you buy a set of aftermarket cans from them, but i'm not sure if they still offer that.  try calling them and asking them about it.  also make sure they are flashing it to be a 796abs, not a normal 796.

btw, the termi's btwn the 696/796/1100 are interchangeable along with the air filters/lids.  it's only the ecu that is different.  so if you find a used set, all you would need to do is get a ecu reflashed.

and yeah, my timing sucks... haha.  i know this is the worst route to go, but well... the sf848 is just too much of exactly what i want out of a bike.  the only thing it would need is abs and it would be perfect.

and i'll def send you a pm if i do go the ebay route ;)


Title: Re: 2011 M796 ABS Cold Start Issue
Post by: bodybag on October 13, 2011, 12:49:21 PM
I have read other Ducati forums where others have had similar problems, but I have had only 1 problem that occured twice with mine.

Twice I had it die while idleing, but both times it started right back up but since those two times, it has not occured again (knock on wood).

I have just over 2300 miles on it since March, 1st service was late - really late due to my local (well, only dealer in the state) having a backlog of service calls. I have made no modifications (but not for lack of wants).

I usually wheel it out of the garage, turn the key on, wait for the fuel pump to kick-in (usually 3-4 seconds after turning the key to on) and press the start button. I don't think I do anything special, I have not connect mine to the battery tender as I am still riding it almost everyday (in Indianapolis) weather dependent - I usually park it outside while at work and on cold mornings (~45F) it cranks a few more times before firing but idles and runs fine...I know that I would send it to the dealer until it was fixed - good luck.


Title: Re: 2011 M796 ABS Cold Start Issue
Post by: Curmudgeon on October 13, 2011, 01:48:32 PM

Thanks for the feedback, "bodybag".

No stalling problems whatever, just getting mine to catch. Once it catches, it idles. I have been turning the key and letting the display scrolling complete before I hit the starter just in case the ECU needs to wake up. What have you been using for fuel?

Just guessing but it seems the starting strategy in the software in the 796 Siemens ECU is a bit on the lean side. You shouldn't have any more issue in starting at 45 F than at 80 F. The bike has sensor inputs for that variable as well as barometric pressure.

My dealer is good, but no point in going the three ugly hours back there until he knows what's causing this and has a real fix. He agrees. I'd be happy with a band-aid protocol if DNA can come up with something. We already know from the computer readouts that all sensors and inputs are working correctly. It "appears" that the issue is in the software at this point.

Appreciate the input!


Title: Re: 2011 M796 ABS Cold Start Issue
Post by: Arachnosold1er on October 14, 2011, 10:40:50 PM
The only stalling issue I had was due in part by the evap can. There was a kink in the fuel tank vent hose that I think was causing a vaccum condition in the tank. I took off the evap can and found the slight kink and re-routed the hoses. I had just bought the bike and it was mid summer. I also had an issue with pressure building up in the tank when it got hot (100+ deg days) which led me to find the kinked vent hose. I would open the tank to vent the pressure, then as fuel was consumed and the tank cooled, a vaccum condition was created. I know this sounds strang but after I fixed the kink I have had no starting or stalling issues. Good luck with your bike. I hope you get it figured out soon!


Title: Re: 2011 M796 ABS Cold Start Issue
Post by: Curmudgeon on October 15, 2011, 06:56:17 AM

Thanks! That's actually a good tip for others. My evaps is removed and no vacuum in the tank, but I do recall reading on some forum or other that opening the cap cured one gent's cold start issue on his M1100. No doubt a kinked vent line was the cause.


Title: Re: 2011 M796 ABS Cold Start Issue
Post by: cyberswine on October 15, 2011, 10:31:13 AM
My 796 ABS has not given me any of the problems described in this thread..... yet (touch wood).  The temperature is just dropping now locally so I've had no experience with cold weather starts.  Anything I might have suggested has already been covered by other members so all I can offer is my condolences.  I feel your pain, very very frustrating.  Good luck!


Title: Re: 2011 M796 ABS Cold Start Issue
Post by: Curmudgeon on October 15, 2011, 02:14:47 PM

Thanks! It hasn't been chilly in Toronto yet?  ;) It was 45 F here last night but 70 F later.

So far, once started, my 796 has restarted normally with the first attempt. If it didn't, that would be totally unacceptable. My issue seems to be cold starts the next day after the immobilizer warning has stopped flashing. (Unrelated I'm told.) Since I know it will start eventually, the present problem is mainly an annoyance. It's inconvenient and it bugs me that I haven't so far devised a workaround. (Never had this with a Ducati or anything else before.)

The bike has been parked since Sunday because it poured all week and today it cleared but 40 MPH gusts. Next two days are nice, so I'll take a long ride out to the Blue Ridge Parkway to leaf-peep and have a good lunch at a brewery nearby.

If the bike starts right up, fine and dandy. If it doesn't, I'm going to throw on the Battery Tender Jr. until it has a full charge and then hit the starter. (Some M1100's needed a stronger battery.) If it's reluctant then, I'll wait for DNA to suggest something since my dealer showed me on the Ducati computer that all systems were "go". Very odd... If DNA has no suggestions, I'll ask for another 796 ABS ECU since this appears to be a cold start strategy / software thing.

Will keep you posted.


Title: Re: 2011 M796 ABS Cold Start Issue
Post by: metroplex on December 13, 2011, 09:34:52 AM
Any updates?


Title: Re: 2011 M796 ABS Cold Start Issue
Post by: metroplex on December 16, 2011, 03:37:48 AM
What is this PCV fix that you speak of?

I know that when the engine is running, I can feel vacuum through the charcoal canister breather hose which suggests that the intake is pulling in "unmetered" air via that canister or can lean out the mixture.


Title: Re: 2011 M796 ABS Cold Start Issue
Post by: Arachnosold1er on December 18, 2011, 08:28:21 AM
Ok, So now all of a sudden I have the same problem. When I ride to work when it is warm (3pm) and then go to leave work when it is cold (2 am) my bike does not want to start. It has been a bit "cold natured" since I changed the exhaust to Arrow Darks (no db killer) but now it can take many (5+) times to start and then warm up before I can go. I think that maybe the temp change is the culprit but I'm not sure how. I know that for some reason the pipes are also contributing to the issue. My best guess is that the cold air and nearly open exhaust are causing a fueling issue. Its a bit embarrasing when a Harley owner can jump on their heap and I am sitting trying to start my Duc. Any ideas on this yet?


Title: Re: 2011 M796 ABS Cold Start Issue
Post by: Curmudgeon on December 18, 2011, 09:01:54 AM

You just installed the slip-ons but not the DP Race ECU, right? The jury is still out on this but I suspect the Euro 3 cold start strategy is too lean on the stock ECU. I'm still not sure whether 215 CCA on the stock battery is sufficient or whether the bike needs a richer map.

For now, turn the bike on and wait for the mileage to come up and hold the start button while you crank it. If the bike won't start, wait 5 minutes while you get your gear on, etc. and then repeat the process. Mostly mine has started then whereas just trying to crank it over and over takes forever.

See what you find and report back. Maybe a Fat Duc would correct this but they don't appear to make one for our bikes. "thought" didn't have this issue running the DP ECU and Termignonis on his 796 and I'd guess that ECU is richer.


Title: Re: 2011 M796 ABS Cold Start Issue
Post by: metroplex on December 18, 2011, 09:31:19 AM
I have the DP Race ECU and Termi's on my 696, and the cold starts are problematic. I found that waiting 20+ seconds after the LCD scrolling text helps with the cold starts for some reason.


Title: Re: 2011 M796 ABS Cold Start Issue
Post by: Curmudgeon on December 18, 2011, 09:56:28 AM
I have the DP Race ECU and Termi's on my 696, and the cold starts are problematic. I found that waiting 20+ seconds after the LCD scrolling text helps with the cold starts for some reason.

Maybe post that on a 696 cold start thread somewhere. Your bike has a cold start lever which implies a very different cold start strategy in the ECU. A 796 has a lot more in common with an M1100 and 1100evo including many shared components. Any similarity between a 696 and 796 is probably coincidental rather than substantive IMO.


Title: Re: 2011 M796 ABS Cold Start Issue
Post by: metroplex on December 18, 2011, 10:09:32 AM
You keep saying that, but doing a Google search for "Ducati Cold start" shows a large number of Ducati models ranging from the 1098/1198 Superbikes to the Monster experiences cold start issues. Whether or not they have an idle air bypass motor or not doesn't seem to be the mitigating factor.

I found that the fast idle lever is not really used for cold starts contrary to the owner's manual, but rather is used to let it idle faster and reduce warmup time in the cold. I have an easier time starting my 696 with that lever fully shut/closed. If I follow the owner's manual at 20F-30F, it won't start until 15 minutes of cranking rituals. If I keep that lever shut, I can maybe get the engine to start AND idle within 5 minutes.

What Arachnosoldier described fits my 696 to a "T", FWIW.


Title: Re: 2011 M796 ABS Cold Start Issue
Post by: Howie on December 18, 2011, 10:15:04 AM
I wonder if, as metroplex pointed out elsewhere, the EVAP canister might be at least part of the problem.  It is indeed a vacuum leak though small.  The canister is a North American EPA compliance bolt on.  Closed loop would have no problem dealing with this, but on start up and initial warm up the bike might be a bit lean.  A h, I see metroplex posted again.  This could also explain why the fast idle is a starting hindrance rather than a starting aid.


Title: Re: 2011 M796 ABS Cold Start Issue
Post by: Curmudgeon on December 18, 2011, 10:42:15 AM

I had the problem on the 796 with the evaps and it continues unchanged without the evaps. I'll wager $0.05 that it's the Euro 3 spec and the Siemens ECU. More CCA might overcome it anyway. TBD...


Title: Re: 2011 M796 ABS Cold Start Issue
Post by: ungeheuer on December 18, 2011, 09:52:20 PM
Looking for feedback and enlightenment from M796 owners who have the same issue. Others need not apply.  ;)
I posted some thoughts earlier....  and then deleted 'em after I realised you're only interested in hearing from M796 owners.  But I'll risk a second shot  :).

The jury is still out on this but I suspect the Euro 3 cold start strategy is too lean on the stock ECU. I'm still not sure whether 215 CCA on the stock battery is sufficient or whether the bike needs a richer map.
I'm absolutely convinced that the cold starting issues on both M796 and M1100 are due to the overly lean fuelling of the stock mapping.  They have regulations to meet, and its starts eventually so thats all the criteria met  ;).  Hard to please the Eurocrats and the owners  ;).  If you take a look around here you'll find that the issues you're now discussing have been discussed and tackled by M1100 owners previously.  I'm sure that the issue is the same.  Richer fuelling is required.

"thought" didn't have this issue running the DP ECU and Termignonis on his 796 and I'd guess that ECU is richer.
I'm not convinced that Siemens DP ECU fuels any richer at start-up.

Maybe a Fat Duc would correct this but they don't appear to make one for our bikes.
Curmudgeon, I have a pair of redundant-to-me Fat Duc type O2 "optimisers" which richen the fuelling target in closed loop from stock 14.7:1 to 13.6:1.  They're designed for M1100 and came with my PCV as Dynojet's workaround for their inability to tune in the stock closed loop. I've since had my ECU reflashed and so have no current use for them. If you'd like to give them a try on your M796 I'd be happy to drop 'em in the mail to you.  Although I dont believe they will make any difference at cold start-up, they will smooth out any part throttle hesitations as a result of the stock leanness.  To cure your cold starting issues, you need to get more fuel in there. 


Title: Re: 2011 M796 ABS Cold Start Issue
Post by: Curmudgeon on December 18, 2011, 10:25:57 PM

Many thanks but Fat Duc says, "Please note O2 Manipulators are not compatible with 2009 - 2011 Monster 696/1100 and 2010 - 2011 Hypermotard 796/1100."

What did the M1100 owners do? I did a few searches but mainly came up with obsevations on other fora for M1100. I've tried a few but have not isolated the issue yet.

Thanks for the input!



Title: Re: 2011 M796 ABS Cold Start Issue
Post by: metroplex on December 19, 2011, 02:31:06 AM
From the monsterparts site:
Quote
O2 Manipulators are not compatible with Ducati Performance ECUs (as supplied with Termignoni exhausts) or other controllers that bypass the factory oxygen sensor. They are compatible with the following models using Ducati Oxygen/Lambda Sensor Part #552.1.111.1A:

I just found this old posting from Desmoworks where he says the DP Race ECU still retains the O2 sensor function for closed loop function.

Does the Ducati start in closed loop? Usually cars start in open loop.


Title: Re: 2011 M796 ABS Cold Start Issue
Post by: Raux on December 19, 2011, 02:38:37 AM
Many thanks but Fat Duc says, "Please note O2 Manipulators are not compatible with 2009 - 2011 Monster 696/1100 and 2010 - 2011 Hypermotard 796/1100."

What did the M1100 owners do? I did a few searches but mainly came up with obsevations on other fora for M1100. I've tried a few but have not isolated the issue yet.

Thanks for the input!



Like Ungeheuer said, the Powercommander V comes with two O2 manipulators. I'm using them now without even running the PCV. It enriches the closed loop portion of the map.



Title: Re: 2011 M796 ABS Cold Start Issue
Post by: ungeheuer on December 19, 2011, 02:39:22 AM
Many thanks but Fat Duc says, "Please note O2 Manipulators are not compatible with 2009 - 2011 Monster 696/1100 and 2010 - 2011 Hypermotard 796/1100."

What did the M1100 owners do? I did a few searches but mainly came up with obsevations on other fora for M1100. I've tried a few but have not isolated the issue yet.

Thanks for the input!
Pay attention  [cheeky].  I know that Fat Duc doesnt make anything for your bike or mine.  

The items I'm describing are not made by Fat Duc.  Fat Duc type.... as in: a similar thing to that which Fat Duc makes for other bikes but designed for M1100/M696 by Dynojet.  Dynojet's O2 Optimisers come as part of the PCV kit for M696 and M1100 (and presumably M796), but there's no reason at all why they couldnt be fitted as a stand-alone Fattener within the closed loop, sans PCV.




Title: Re: 2011 M796 ABS Cold Start Issue
Post by: Raux on December 19, 2011, 02:40:09 AM
Pay attention  [cheeky].  I know that Fat Duc doesnt make anything for your bike or mine.  The items I'm describing are not made by Fat Duc.  Fat Duc type.... as in: a similar thing to that which Fat Duc makes for other bikes but designed for M1100/M696 by Dynojet.  Dynojet's O2 Optimisers come as part of the PCV kit for M696 and M1100 (and presumably M796), but there's no reason at all why they couldnt be fitted as a stand-alone Fattener within the closed loop, sans PCV.




lmao... we were reading at the same time.  [thumbsup]


Title: Re: 2011 M796 ABS Cold Start Issue
Post by: ungeheuer on December 19, 2011, 02:43:29 AM
 [laugh] [clap]
I'm using them now without even running the PCV. It enriches the closed loop portion of the map.
^^ See?  ;D



Title: Re: 2011 M796 ABS Cold Start Issue
Post by: ungeheuer on December 19, 2011, 03:21:31 AM
How would we get our stock ECUs reflashed for richer low temp cold starting? I wouldn't necessarily make it run richer in closed or open loop because that is when the engine is fully warmed up. The cold start fuel tables are usually separate from open or closed loop AFR - at least on all of my Fords and GMs. Unless of course we know our stock/DP ECUs are programmed for leaner than 14.7:1 in closed loop?

You can have your ECU reflashed with whatever modified criteria you see fit.  Or you could fit a PCV which allows you to add fuel at start-up.

Some info here:
http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=41934.0 (http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=41934.0)
http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=43335.0 (http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=43335.0)
http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=53037.0 (http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=53037.0)



Title: Re: 2011 M796 ABS Cold Start Issue
Post by: metroplex on December 19, 2011, 03:48:38 AM
Thanks. I dug up the instructions for the 696's PCV:
Quote
Install the O2 Optimizer in the tool kit area.
The O2 optimizer for this model controls the stock closed loop area. This area is represented by the highlighted cells shown in Figure N. The optimizer is designed to achieve a target AFR of 13.6:1. To use this optimizer you must retain your stock O2 sensors.
It is important to have values of 10 in the highlighted area of your map.
If using the Auto tune system do NOT input values in this area in your Target AFR table.

Unless the Siemens ECU does it differently, cars generally start up in open loop mode and apply a cold start fuel table based on coolant/cylinder temp and air temp. They rarely if ever start in closed loop.

The problem we all seem to be experiencing is with cold starts, but I do notice my 696 exhaust popping when I close my throttle and wouldn't doubt it runs lean.

BTW I thought I even saw "Deka" written on the side of my 696 injectors, they look like the short form version of the Siemens Deka injectors on late model Fords (Marauder, S197 Mustang, etc...)


Title: Re: 2011 M796 ABS Cold Start Issue
Post by: Howie on December 19, 2011, 05:56:06 AM
From the monsterparts site:
I just found this old posting from Desmoworks where he says the DP Race ECU still retains the O2 sensor function for closed loop function.

Does the Ducati start in closed loop? Usually cars start in open loop.


Open loop.  The O2 sensor will not operate until they are heated to 600oF.


Title: Re: 2011 M796 ABS Cold Start Issue
Post by: Curmudgeon on December 19, 2011, 09:49:02 AM
Pay attention  [cheeky].  I know that Fat Duc doesn't make anything for your bike or mine.  

The items I'm describing are not made by Fat Duc.  Fat Duc type.... as in: a similar thing to that which Fat Duc makes for other bikes but designed for M1100/M696 by Dynojet.  Dynojet's O2 Optimisers come as part of the PCV kit for M696 and M1100 (and presumably M796), but there's no reason at all why they couldn't be fitted as a stand-alone Fattener within the closed loop, sans PCV.

Thanks! Missed that. My brain must be turning to Swiss cheese.  ;) Where did you get the "ungeheuer" handle BTW?

"Frost on the pumpkin" last PM, so this is not a hugely pressing matter although we DO get 70 F days in VA out of nowhere sometimes. I may take you up on your kind offer at some point. While I have no major complaints with the stock 796 fueling, a bit richer might be nice as I suspect it would run smoother at lower RPM. At this point I plan to keep it stock as I'm short of "mad money" and it goes plenty fast for around here. Tricking the O2 sensors won't do anything for cold starts either, right? Is that a fixed enrichment on the Dynojet units or adjustable like the Fat Duc?

I read that first link you attached and got a headache.  ;)

For now I'd like a quick fix for just the cold start issue. It didn't do this for the first 400 miles. Hard to comprehend as many 796's don't have this apparently...


Title: Re: 2011 M796 ABS Cold Start Issue
Post by: ungeheuer on December 19, 2011, 02:11:03 PM
Tricking the O2 sensors won't do anything for cold starts either, right? Is that a fixed enrichment on the Dynojet units or adjustable like the Fat Duc?
Correct, tricking the O2 sensors will do nothing for cold starting, so we're getting a little off your original topic I realise. The Dynojet items come pre-set to fuel at 13.6:1 and I found that a vast improvement over stock.  But they do have VRs so that you can alter the story they tell to the ECU (I've never opened mine up and so never attempted to adjust them from the Dynojet pre-set - I believe Raux is your man in that department).

Generally, it seems that both the Siemens stock ECUs and DP ECUs fuel these bikes on the lean side.  There are a number of ways to up the fuelling rate.  And its my firm opinion that getting more fuel in there at start-up will solve your cold start issue. 

Where did you get the "ungeheuer" handle BTW?
Long story  ;).  I spent some time living in Germany.... harks back to those crazy days  ;D.



Title: Re: 2011 M796 ABS Cold Start Issue
Post by: metroplex on December 19, 2011, 02:25:36 PM
How about using lower octane fuel and iridium spark plugs? I've been using 93 octane (US, PON/AKI) while the manual calls for 95 (I assume to be RON) which I found out is more like 89 octane PON/AKI. However, I have cars that are required to use 87 octane start perfectly fine with 93 or 94 octane.

I read a few reviews for Denso plugs where the original owners had the same NGK copper plugs and noticed the Denso iridium allowed for easier starts.


Title: Re: 2011 M796 ABS Cold Start Issue
Post by: Howie on December 19, 2011, 08:59:26 PM
How about using lower octane fuel and iridium spark plugs? I've been using 93 octane (US, PON/AKI) while the manual calls for 95 (I assume to be RON) which I found out is more like 89 octane PON/AKI. However, I have cars that are required to use 87 octane start perfectly fine with 93 or 94 octane.

I read a few reviews for Denso plugs where the original owners had the same NGK copper plugs and noticed the Denso iridium allowed for easier starts.

Lower octane may help, most stock 2 valvers run fine on 87.  Yes, the 95 in the manual is RON.


Title: Re: 2011 M796 ABS Cold Start Issue
Post by: Curmudgeon on December 19, 2011, 09:54:36 PM
Correct, tricking the O2 sensors will do nothing for cold starting, so we're getting a little off your original topic I realise. The Dynojet items come pre-set to fuel at 13.6:1 and I found that a vast improvement over stock.  But they do have VRs so that you can alter the story they tell to the ECU (I've never opened mine up and so never attempted to adjust them from the Dynojet pre-set - I believe Raux is your man in that department).

Generally, it seems that both the Siemens stock ECUs and DP ECUs fuel these bikes on the lean side.  There are a number of ways to up the fuelling rate.  And its my firm opinion that getting more fuel in there at start-up will solve your cold start issue. 
Long story  ;).  I spent some time living in Germany.... harks back to those crazy days  ;D.

I'm aware that ~ 14.7:1 is the current "ideal" for catalysts and can see that 13.6:1 would be a lot fatter, but having an "old school" brain, I'd love to know what the ppm CO is for 14.7 and 13.6. It would certainly increase my comfort level. ;)

My Deutsch is weak these days. Never realized that enormous can also be "monster".  8) Most amusing!


Title: Re: 2011 M796 ABS Cold Start Issue
Post by: Curmudgeon on December 19, 2011, 10:11:32 PM
Lower octane may help, most stock 2 valvers run fine on 87.  Yes, the 95 in the manual is RON.

Minimum fuel requirement for the newer bikes is "95 RON (at least)", so I doubt 91 - 92 RON with all the crap in U.S. fuel is going to hack it. Besides, from the major oil companies, only the premium leaves the distributor with the best additive packages and is usually the cleanest.

As for your '01, you might well be right. One sure way to tell this is to measure your fuel mileage on 87 and 93. If you get no mileage improvement, then you're correct. On an newer EFi bike with O2 sensors, I'd wager the mileage would be 5% - 10% better on 93 M+R/2.


Title: Re: 2011 M796 ABS Cold Start Issue
Post by: Arachnosold1er on December 20, 2011, 12:06:51 AM
It did it again! Not as bad as last night though. I always wait for the txt scrolling to stop before starting and if it does not start I turn off, then back ,and  try again til she does. It is my full belief that a lean fuel condition at start is causing this. I have some "pop" on decel and low speeds but not enough to warrant any concern. However, this is a bit annoying. I stalled it at the light leaving work because it was still cold. Started to take off like I always have for the last 4k miles and BLAP, she fell straight on her face. I guess this gives me a good excuse to buy a tuner and performance air filter! [bacon] 


Title: Re: 2011 M796 ABS Cold Start Issue
Post by: Raux on December 20, 2011, 12:19:25 AM
are you waiting until your bike is idling evenly at 1200rpm?


Title: Re: 2011 M796 ABS Cold Start Issue
Post by: Howie on December 20, 2011, 02:32:47 AM
I'm aware that ~ 14.7:1 is the current "ideal" for catalysts and can see that 13.6:1 would be a lot fatter, but having an "old school" brain, I'd love to know what the ppm CO is for 14.7 and 13.6. It would certainly increase my comfort level. ;)

My Deutsch is weak these days. Never realized that enormous can also be "monster".  8) Most amusing!

CO does not equal fuel ratio, from engine to engine.  It is used for emissions testing at the state level and for tuning a particular engine.  The feds test CO in ppm and ppm is used in state dyno testing, but % is more commonly used for state tailpipe testing and adjusting.


Title: Re: 2011 M796 ABS Cold Start Issue
Post by: Curmudgeon on December 20, 2011, 09:19:57 AM
It did it again! Not as bad as last night though. I always wait for the txt scrolling to stop before starting and if it does not start I turn off, then back ,and  try again til she does. It is my full belief that a lean fuel condition at start is causing this. I have some "pop" on decel and low speeds but not enough to warrant any concern. However, this is a bit annoying. I stalled it at the light leaving work because it was still cold. Started to take off like I always have for the last 4k miles and BLAP, she fell straight on her face. I guess this gives me a good excuse to buy a tuner and performance air filter! [bacon] 

Did you try waiting for 5 minutes before the 2nd attempt? I'd be curious to see what you get.

BTW, I doubt your slip-ons have much influence on start-up but less back pressure when you are taking off with a cold engine might be more problematic.

Popping on trailing throttle is just as often unburned fuel in the muffler as it is any indication of a lean condition. Hard to know sometime exactly what is going on with these bikes. It's down to the map. For instance, if I downshift through all the gears up to stop light and it changes before I stop, if I then roll on the throttle, the sucker takes off like an accelerator pump x3!!! That's a LOT of fuel.  ;) Understanding this Siemens ECU is a challenge...


Title: Re: 2011 M796 ABS Cold Start Issue
Post by: metroplex on December 20, 2011, 09:23:48 AM
Riding the 696, I can often smell the waft of fuel in traffic, at lower speeds, or when the wind blows the right way. When I finally get it started in the cold, there is a large puff of blue exhaust followed by a strong smell of fuel or an un-catalyzed exhaust.


Title: Re: 2011 M796 ABS Cold Start Issue
Post by: Curmudgeon on December 20, 2011, 09:29:17 AM
CO does not equal fuel ratio, from engine to engine.  It is used for emissions testing at the state level and for tuning a particular engine.  The feds test CO in ppm and ppm is used in state dyno testing, but % is more commonly used for state tailpipe testing and adjusting.

After 40 years in the high-line car biz, trust me, I'm aware.  ;) (Incidentally, we are equally ancient! 8)) Until the mid-90's, ALL FI and EFi final tuning was done with CO, so with those numbers, I know what is likely to be too lean, what is fat but OK, and what is likely to be so rich that it screws up the CATs or leads to carbon on the intakes. As I said, "old school".


Title: Re: 2011 M796 ABS Cold Start Issue
Post by: Curmudgeon on December 20, 2011, 09:36:55 AM
Riding the 696, I can often smell the waft of fuel in traffic, at lower speeds, or when the wind blows the right way. When I finally get it started in the cold, there is a large puff of blue exhaust followed by a strong smell of fuel or an un-catalyzed exhaust.

Would you mind posting this on a 696 thread or start your own somewhere?! Not a whole lot in common between a 696 and 796 which, in turn has tons in common with an M1100 and 1100evo. This is my 796 cold start thread. OK???


Title: Re: 2011 M796 ABS Cold Start Issue
Post by: metroplex on December 20, 2011, 09:41:51 AM
Not a problem bud, it doesn't sound like you're getting any closer to a solution anyhow. The cold start problem extends to a wide variety of Ducati's, and not just your 796, FWIW. And the new 796 that is coming out for the Asia market is basically a 696 with a slightly larger engine.


Title: Re: 2011 M796 ABS Cold Start Issue
Post by: Arachnosold1er on December 21, 2011, 01:47:12 AM
are you waiting until your bike is idling evenly at 1200rpm?

My 796 NEVER idles at 1200 RPM. My bike idles closer to the 7-900 RPM range. It will idle a bit higher at first then bounces around 900 RPM with a nice little "lope". Sounds truly amazing through my Arrows! I did not ride today as there was a chance of rain. Its no fun riding home wet at 2am. I should have rode though. It stayed dry all day and was fairly warm. I will take the bike out some more this week and see if my problem persists. If it does, I will probably re-install the db killers and see if that changes anything. Maybe an increase in back pressure will make a difference. BTW, I was suprised at the amount of vacuum that is present at the evap can vent hose. That thing will definitely have to go now. I planned on eliminating it, but a louder exhaust seemed more important at the time. 


Title: Re: 2011 M796 ABS Cold Start Issue
Post by: Raux on December 21, 2011, 02:40:32 AM
check your sticker on your bike. the one that says Vehicle Emission control information. it will give you the correct idle speed.
sounds low at 900


Title: Re: 2011 M796 ABS Cold Start Issue
Post by: Curmudgeon on December 21, 2011, 07:56:27 AM
check your sticker on your bike. the one that says Vehicle Emission control information. it will give you the correct idle speed.
sounds low at 900

Only left the "E" sticker on mine but saved the rest on wax paper. It reads "Idle 1300 +/- 100 RPM   Non-Adjustable" Mine has always been 1200. Guess he needs to get to his dealer and have it set up on the Ducati computer.


Title: Re: 2011 M796 ABS Cold Start Issue
Post by: ilovemyduc on December 25, 2011, 08:19:12 AM
Hi Curmudgeon,

I actually have somewhat of the reverse problem.  I bought my 2011 M796 in May~ish of this year and it has always started right up when cold.  However, when I turn it off after it's been warmed up and then attempt to turn it on after about 15 to 20 minutes, it revs up to 1200 RPM or about and then just falls until it dies.  If I give it some gas or just start riding, it's fine after 15 to 30 seconds of gas/riding and will idle fine without dying.  My dealer in Charlotte NC witnessed this and said it was nothing to worry about.  The problem only occurs if I actually wait 15 or so minutes.  If I turn it off and start it up immediately or so, it will start fine.

It was stock up until a couple of weeks ago when I installed Arrow Ti/carbon slip-ons, 3100 miles.

Edit: It idles at 1250/1300 if I watch the digital rev counter.  I have never done the TPS reset but I have disconnected the battery to install a USB port for charging my phone.


Title: Re: 2011 M796 ABS Cold Start Issue
Post by: Curmudgeon on December 26, 2011, 01:23:14 PM

Thanks for the input. No doubt the cold start circuit / protocol is ragged-edge lean. My production date is 6/2011. Yours? What fuel are you running too?

Mine runs OK after it fires. Takes a while for the O2 sensors to kick in after which it runs on the normal map. With the stepper motor and other sensors, it's hard to predict what causes your stumble but I'd guess the voltages / outputs from that junk is just enough different to cause your stumble. Maybe something will wear in and it'll go away...

Too cold for this wimp to ride today but I'm thinking that my best fix is a battery with more CCAs (cold cranking amps). For giggles I plugged in the Battery Tender and gave mine a full charge after sitting for ~ 2 weeks. It fired right up with the tender still connected. Will take a few more starts like that to confirm but appears promising. This stock battery has 215 CCAs and a smaller Shorai has 270 CCAs. TBD...

Probably a Euro switch with on/off for the headlight would eliminate this too. Not easy to source though.


Title: Re: 2011 M796 ABS Cold Start Issue
Post by: ilovemyduc on December 26, 2011, 02:15:42 PM
My production date is 11/2010.  I run 93 octane and recently over the last 500 miles or so have been using Star Tron.  Oh, in my previous post I meant that I bought it in the May~ time frame of _this_ year, not last, anyways...

Interesting that it may be the battery, but yet you can crank it multiple times without it going 'dead'.  I guess that's more the CCA than the overall charge?  I don't know much about batteries.  Hope that works out for you. 




Title: Re: 2011 M796 ABS Cold Start Issue
Post by: Curmudgeon on December 26, 2011, 04:53:00 PM

Thanks! I'm burning 93 as well, but pure gas, not E-10, with Stabil this time of year. If you are burning E-10, watch this space as K100 may actually be the best option if you are concerned about your tank swelling.

All this is pure theory but the real "fix" is probably a richer flash from DNA for both of us. Since that is unlikely to happen, I've been trying to find a workaround. A stronger battery may do the trick. This remains to be seen. And yes, the stock battery has enough juice to crank indefinitely but possibly not as fast or as hot as needed to kick mine into life. We'll see... A couple of cars I used to sell had the same problem if a 66A was fitted but an 88A or 90A would fire it right up after the 6 seconds of cranking the ECU required @ 750+ RPM before it turned the fuel on. (Similar but not identical.)


Title: Re: 2011 M796 ABS Cold Start Issue
Post by: ilovemyduc on December 27, 2011, 01:38:14 PM
Figured this might be interesting to you:
http://www.ducati.ms/forums/42-monster/124643-diy-696-796-1100-battery-cable-battery-upgrade.html (http://www.ducati.ms/forums/42-monster/124643-diy-696-796-1100-battery-cable-battery-upgrade.html)


Title: Re: 2011 M796 ABS Cold Start Issue
Post by: Curmudgeon on December 27, 2011, 04:35:57 PM
Figured this might be interesting to you:
http://www.ducati.ms/forums/42-monster/124643-diy-696-796-1100-battery-cable-battery-upgrade.html (http://www.ducati.ms/forums/42-monster/124643-diy-696-796-1100-battery-cable-battery-upgrade.html)

Interesting. Some of the same info has been covered on this site as well. 796 does appear to be closest to..., but not identical with an M1100. For example, mine won't continue to crank if it fails to start. Different logic.

To me at least, both the cable and battery are workarounds, not fixes. The "fix" is a richer cold start protocol. Yet to be conclusively proven, but I'm fine with leaving the Battery Tender attached on start-up, as long as it will start first time as it did yesterday. That is also a workaround since this should be totally unnecessary.

Unlike some, my 796 will always start immediately for 12+ hours after it's been running, typically with the immobilizer still flashing. It's been overnight that my hard start first appeared.

"Plan B", if the above fails, will be to have the battery replaced under warranty (although mine reads 13.5V when cranking) and have a big Shorai and Shorai charger pigtail installed. DNA can pay for the labor. I'll buy the Shorai bits. That's 270 CCA vs the stock 215 CCA.

If that fails, I'll quickly build a lemon law file. Had this checked out at the first service, so that's strike one and the clock is ticking. It's evident that no two 796's are completely identical. Will post results here of course...

BTW, on this site, the Ballistic batteries have some issues and bad feedback. The Shorai seems OK but does need to be recharged on a Shorai charger unless they changed the design because a Battery Tender will only charge the first cell. Nothing is perfect I guess.


Title: Re: 2011 M796 ABS Cold Start Issue
Post by: ilovemyduc on December 29, 2011, 08:04:43 AM
I was going to ask why not make 3 (or whatever it takes) separate appointments with the dealer and when it isn't fixed the last time, lemon it, but I figured that's already gone through your head.  Sucks to have to do that for a starting issue when it runs fine, but at the same time I believe that's one of the more basic components of a motorcycle and should probably work.  Would they successfully give you shit for your mods?


Title: Re: 2011 M796 ABS Cold Start Issue
Post by: ducatiz on December 29, 2011, 08:07:32 AM
VA law says it has to be within 18 months of receiving the vehicle -- initial purchase.

http://www.dmv.state.va.us/webdoc/citizen/vehicles/lemonlaw.asp (http://www.dmv.state.va.us/webdoc/citizen/vehicles/lemonlaw.asp)


Title: Re: 2011 M796 ABS Cold Start Issue
Post by: Curmudgeon on December 29, 2011, 12:40:59 PM

ducatiz, thanks for the link. Believe I looked at it a while back. Trust it won't come to that but I've handled ~ 20 buy-backs or substitutions during my former career and know the drill.

ilovemyduc, we'll see. All "mods" are no issue and were performed by my dealer..., a very GOOD dealer, but he doesn't write software, unlike Larry Ferracci. And if I had to swap bikes, DNA has to pay to have my mods swapped over.

As I've said above, the cold start protocol is probably just too lean. Many who buy these bikes fit the DP ECU and Termis before or shortly after picking up the bike. Mine is stock and that's fine by me. Makes plenty of noise and other than this cold start issue, fuels fine with no major glitches. I'm sure a bit richer would be nice and make it run smoother, so may take ungeheuer up on his offer if we can get the cold start sorted. Otherwise, the bike couldn't handle or ride much better the way it's set up without serious expense. Unless the DOW hits 15,000 next year, I'm not up for that! ;)

No doubt, the bike should start first time, every time. All my others which were starter-equipped did. If mine didn't while on a ride, you would be able to see the smoke wherever you are.  ;) The dealer is aware.

DNA wants me to leave the bike with him so that he can take multiple readings and measurements with the bike stone cold. That's not exactly convenient right now as I'm 140 miles from him. If DNA knows I'm serious though, they might brew up a richer ECU. If they don't and the bigger CCA battery doesn't resolve it, then they'll have a hassle on their hands. I'd also rather the dealer didn't have to go through that as he's a nice guy, and these buy-backs always cost us money too.


Title: Re: 2011 M796 ABS Cold Start Issue
Post by: Armor on December 29, 2011, 03:18:30 PM
From my experience, Ducati's do not like to start when it is cold.  Get another Ducati and you will have the same problem.  I think you need to find the strongest battery that will fit.


Title: Re: 2011 M796 ABS Cold Start Issue
Post by: ducpainter on December 29, 2011, 03:37:32 PM
Minimum fuel requirement for the newer bikes is "95 RON (at least)", so I doubt 91 - 92 RON with all the crap in U.S. fuel is going to hack it. Besides, from the major oil companies, only the premium leaves the distributor with the best additive packages and is usually the cleanest.

As for your '01, you might well be right. One sure way to tell this is to measure your fuel mileage on 87 and 93. If you get no mileage improvement, then you're correct. On an newer EFi bike with O2 sensors, I'd wager the mileage would be 5% - 10% better on 93 M+R/2.
Not to be argumentative...

the info in the manual is BS, and I'd wager your bike will run better and make more power with less octane.

Humor an old guy and try some 87 octane.

The compression ratio of your 796 does not require the fancy fuel you're using.


Title: Re: 2011 M796 ABS Cold Start Issue
Post by: Curmudgeon on December 29, 2011, 04:17:44 PM
Not to be argumentative...

the info in the manual is BS, and I'd wager your bike will run better and make more power with less octane.

Humor an old guy and try some 87 octane.

The compression ratio of your 796 does not require the fancy fuel you're using.

Hmmm... If the compression ratio were no higher than 9.5:1, I'd be game for a mix since the bike has no knock sensors. However, the manual says 11 +/- 0.5:1 and 95 - 98 RON. That makes sense to this feeble brain.

I presume the compression rato was lower on the Magneti Marelli bikes?

Would be cool if it had an accelerator pump and I could give it a good squirt with the twist grip.  ;)


Title: Re: 2011 M796 ABS Cold Start Issue
Post by: ducpainter on December 29, 2011, 04:27:33 PM
Hmmm... If the compression ratio were no higher than 9.5:1, I'd be game for a mix since the bike has no knock sensors. However, the manual says 11 +/- 0.5:1 and 95 - 98 RON. That makes sense to this feeble brain.

I presume the compression rato was lower on the Magneti Marelli bikes?

Would be cool if it had an accelerator pump and I could give it a good squirt with the twist grip.  ;)
Ducati has been recommending 95 ron forever...

and it's been too much.

You've been around long enough to recognize pinging.

Give it a shot.

If I'm wrong it will ping.

If I'm right maybe your bike will start when it's cold out.


Title: Re: 2011 M796 ABS Cold Start Issue
Post by: Curmudgeon on December 29, 2011, 06:15:20 PM

Sitting on 15 gal. of stabilized pure gas 93. Nearest 87 non-ethanol is 70+ miles. Full tank on the bike. When is April?  8)

So..., what's the compression ratio on your '96 M900?


Title: Re: 2011 M796 ABS Cold Start Issue
Post by: ducpainter on December 29, 2011, 06:35:11 PM
Sitting on 15 gal. of stabilized pure gas 93. Nearest 87 non-ethanol is 70+ miles. Full tank on the bike. When is April?  8)

So..., what's the compression ratio on your '96 M900?
I can't find the manual right now, but did find it listed at 9.2:1 on line...you were close.

My 996 (base model) is also listed as 9.2:1 with the S at 11.5 :1.

I know people that run regular in S models with no pinging.

In my mind, if it doesn't ping it's the correct octane.


Title: Re: 2011 M796 ABS Cold Start Issue
Post by: ungeheuer on December 29, 2011, 08:55:39 PM
If DNA knows I'm serious though, they might brew up a richer ECU. If they don't and the bigger CCA battery doesn't resolve it, then they'll have a hassle on their hands. I'd also rather the dealer didn't have to go through that as he's a nice guy, and these buy-backs always cost us money too.
Forgive me.  I mean well....

I live in a land where there are no lemon laws, so I clearly have no idea what I'm talking about.  But that doesnt usually stop me from having an opinion  ;) 

You've been in the business, you know the ropes and understand your rights regarding raising a Lemon claim with DNA.  But.....  as you say... the dealer is a good guy who you'd rather not put through the wringer... you say yourself that the buy-back will cost both of you....  And I do understand that you're doing this to apply pressure on DNA.... but IMO they're not gonna come up with an EPA infringing ECU remap just to make you go away.  They wont do it, coz they cant solve your issue if to do so would create compliance issues.

So again, I know you are on the side of right.  But my suggestion is that you arrive at a pragmatic.... "settlement".... which provides you with funding to do what DNA will not; have your ECU reflashed for better fuelling. 



Title: Re: 2011 M796 ABS Cold Start Issue
Post by: Curmudgeon on December 29, 2011, 09:14:50 PM
I can't find the manual right now, but did find it listed at 9.2:1 on line...you were close.

My 996 (base model) is also listed as 9.2:1 with the S at 11.5 :1.

I know people that run regular in S models with no pinging.

In my mind, if it doesn't ping it's the correct octane.

My '09 EFi T-100 is 9.2:1 and will burn 87 but runs better on 91. I'll try a mix on the 796 when the buds pop on the trees in the spring. Bit of a generalization but premium from Shell, BP, Chevron, Sunoco (not Gulf or Exxon, at least in the East), are usually cleaner and have better detergency. (Had a client who was a research chemist at Linden Lab in NJ where all the fuel for NY Metro gets mixed out of the pipeline by the major oil companies.) This was also our experience in the dealership where I worked, selling 1,100 vehicles/year and servicing 5,000+.


Title: Re: 2011 M796 ABS Cold Start Issue
Post by: Curmudgeon on December 29, 2011, 10:02:00 PM
Forgive me.  I mean well....

I live in a land where there are no lemon laws, so I clearly have no idea what I'm talking about.  But that doesnt usually stop me from having an opinion  ;) 

You've been in the business, you know the ropes and understand your rights regarding raising a Lemon claim with DNA.  But.....  as you say... the dealer is a good guy who you'd rather not put through the wringer... you say yourself that the buy-back will cost both of you....  And I do understand that you're doing this to apply pressure on DNA.... but IMO they're not gonna come up with an EPA infringing ECU remap just to make you go away.  They wont do it, coz they cant solve your issue if to do so would create compliance issues.

So again, I know you are on the side of right.  But my suggestion is that you arrive at a pragmatic.... "settlement".... which provides you with funding to do what DNA will not; have your ECU reflashed for better fuelling. 

Hello ungeheuer!

There you go being logical.  ;) And yes, I know the system and could tie DNA up in knots they may not have yet experienced. Cost to me is time and inconvenience. Even reasonable transportation costs may be their responsibility. Yes, my dealer is a good guy who means well. He'd get stuck with the bike at a reduced wholesale figure which could cost him. Sometimes they go to auction though and he'd be off the hook but I doubt DNA has those resources.

As for a special map, reflash or chips, several boutique car companies I represented did these for problem cars. I even have a factory special cold start chip in my V8 Defender 90.  ;) Installed that mainly to delete the speed restriction though.

For convenience, these bikes are delivered here in Euro 3 trim. CARB (California tree-huggers) might require a tune this dire, but the US EPA does not. I'm aware of one case where DNA provided a richer ECU but it came from the factory. Unlike the little car companies, I doubt DNA has an engineer in CA who can cook chips and write software. Siemens is a major PITA too. This I know from the single car model we had which ran Siemens for several years.

DNA has a responsibility to deliver a product which operates as intended, so they have to supply a fix which works, or buy the bike back or replace it with one which does if the customer wishes. This response from the manufacturer is not optional. Sometimes you have to build a fire under them to get the proper response. What they won't do is to sanction and pay for an aftermarket solution. No way, no how! ;)

I'm not familiar with Australia but I do know the U.K. has "fit for purpose" standards. They don't even require the three attempts to correct the issue before that kicks in. Are you sure you don't have something like that?


Title: Re: 2011 M796 ABS Cold Start Issue
Post by: Raux on December 30, 2011, 12:32:58 AM
Do you know about these guys?

http://www.alientech-to.it/ (http://www.alientech-to.it/)


Title: Re: 2011 M796 ABS Cold Start Issue
Post by: ungeheuer on December 30, 2011, 01:55:51 AM
I'm not familiar with Australia but I do know the U.K. has "fit for purpose" standards. They don't even require the three attempts to correct the issue before that kicks in. Are you sure you don't have something like that?
We have "fit for purpose" consumer protection laws, but they'd rarely go so far as to get you a vehicle replaced or refunded.  Suppliers under Australian law must guarantee that goods are of "acceptable quality (safe, durable and free from defects, acceptable in appearance and finish and do all the things that the goods are ordinarily used for) and are fit for any disclosed purpose" 

So if a motorcycle never started, then its not a viable means of transport and so would not be fit for purpose.  If it was a bit of a pain in the arse to start, but did in fact start, then it would be fit for purpose IMO.  So yeah, we do have some consumer protection but nothing as clearly defined as your lemon laws.


Title: Re: 2011 M796 ABS Cold Start Issue
Post by: Curmudgeon on December 30, 2011, 08:33:12 PM
Do you know about these guys?

http://www.alientech-to.it/ (http://www.alientech-to.it/)

Hello Raux,

No idea. Who are they? Do they do work for the factory? Mine is a warranty issue on an essentially stock bike. I'm not looking to re-engineer it. Not my problem.

If and when my cold start issue is sorted, I might look into ungeheuer's Dynojet O2 "optimisers" because I imagine they'd smooth the bike out and sharpen response. I'm not unhappy with the bike as is..., provided it would start reliably when cold.

Regards!


Title: Re: 2011 M796 ABS Cold Start Issue
Post by: Curmudgeon on December 30, 2011, 08:54:15 PM
We have "fit for purpose" consumer protection laws, but they'd rarely go so far as to get you a vehicle replaced or refunded.  Suppliers under Australian law must guarantee that goods are of "acceptable quality (safe, durable and free from defects, acceptable in appearance and finish and do all the things that the goods are ordinarily used for) and are fit for any disclosed purpose" 

So if a motorcycle never started, then its not a viable means of transport and so would not be fit for purpose.  If it was a bit of a pain in the arse to start, but did in fact start, then it would be fit for purpose IMO.  So yeah, we do have some consumer protection but nothing as clearly defined as your lemon laws.

Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but it's my understanding that the Brits get a refund (buy-back) if the vehicle won't start and the issue can't be corrected. A vehicle which starts "eventually" is not acceptable.

And yes, pretty much "cut and dried" in the U.S. Over here, sometimes a manufacturer can be a bit slow to respond to a dealer, but they get moving when a customer calls and opens a file. Now that I'm retired, I can tell that I've carefully coached several clients in just what to say.  ;) Works like a charm!

If a client of mine had a vehicle which required 10 - 15 attempts to get started and we couldn't resolve it, I wouldn't blame him if he drove it through the front door of the showroom, even if WE didn't make the beast. Thankfully it never came to that. We did spend huge hours on a couple of vehicles though installing totally new wiring harnesses. Maybe you know, but a modern luxury vehicle has more wires and fiber optic cables than an old telephone exchange!  ;)

Regards!


Title: Re: 2011 M796 ABS Cold Start Issue
Post by: Raux on December 30, 2011, 09:14:01 PM
Actually funny you mntion wiring harness

Ithink at least one person had theirs replaced on here for issues

do a little search.


Title: Re: 2011 M796 ABS Cold Start Issue
Post by: Curmudgeon on December 31, 2011, 10:23:06 AM
Actually funny you mntion wiring harness

Ithink at least one person had theirs replaced on here for issues

do a little search.

A little search indeed!  ;) If you mean the poor bastard whose gf's 696 had the mystery LAMB fault code, yes..., finally. Also found some service advisories which was not a bad thing. I checked mine for the one with the wire touching the fins of the vertical cylinder and mine has an air gap of 3mm - 5mm with no sign of contact, so I'll keep an eye on it. No real convenient way to zip tie that one which might not also create chaffing issues. No other obvious signs of harness rubs although I didn't disassemble anything.

Was thinking about taking a little ride today as it's warmed up a bit, but no sooner did I get the gear out than it started gusting to 20 - 30 MPH! OK, call me a wimp, but not my idea of fun... Maybe tomorrow before it starts freezing again....


Title: Re: 2011 M796 ABS Cold Start Issue
Post by: metroplex on February 07, 2012, 07:00:46 AM
Are you still having cold start issues with your 796?

I fired up my 696 in one push of the button when it was 5 degrees outside (5F), and I'm running 93 octane with probably 10% ethanol (whatever is mandated in Michigan). I have repeated this throughout the months after I figured out the problem. Your mileage may vary. It starts as easily as any of my EFI/MPFI/Direct injected automobiles.

Here's the new 795, and how little engineering was involved to plop your 796 into the 696 chassis:
http://www.moneycontrol.com/news/wheels/ducati-monster-795-first-ride_663620.html (http://www.moneycontrol.com/news/wheels/ducati-monster-795-first-ride_663620.html)

The Monster 1100 engine is quite different though, with a dual spark system for starters (4 spark plugs total).


Title: Re: 2011 M796 ABS Cold Start Issue
Post by: thought on February 10, 2012, 11:59:25 AM

Here's the new 795, and how little engineering was involved to plop your 796 into the 696 chassis:
http://www.moneycontrol.com/news/wheels/ducati-monster-795-first-ride_663620.html (http://www.moneycontrol.com/news/wheels/ducati-monster-795-first-ride_663620.html)

The Monster 1100 engine is quite different though, with a dual spark system for starters (4 spark plugs total).

FYI, the same frame is used for all the monsters from the 696 to the 1100, hence you can fit any engine you want into the frame.  What curmudgeon was trying to tell you is that the engine internals are different and will probably react differently.

Not sure why you keep on bringing it up in his thread.


Title: Re: 2011 M796 ABS Cold Start Issue
Post by: metroplex on February 10, 2012, 12:16:59 PM
I looked through the 796 parts manual as well as the 1100 manual. The main difference between the 796 engine and 696 engine is the 796 uses a stepper motor, or what I'd call an idle air bypass valve or idle air controller (IAC) similar to what is used on most pre-05 fuel injected cars (05-up are generally drive by wire and use a motor for the throttle control). The 1100 has 2 extra spark plugs, making it quite different from the 696/796 although I'm sure someone will argue about the actual part numbers.

I did about a year's worth of research on the 696 cold start problem, and the solution I found indicated it wasn't related to the engine internals, Siemens EFI, ECU, DP/Race ECU, ambient air temperature, battery, starting/cranking voltage, spark plugs, spark plug wires, octane of fuel, ethanol content of fuel, not being broken in yet, etc... (basically all of the complaints I have read from other 696 owners). My 696 now starts in the winter like a Japanese bike or a fuel injected car. I figure this probably applies to the 796 and 1100 (if they experience cold start issues) as well, since this problem was inherent straight from the factory/dealership and was not a user-caused issue or difference in engine design.


Title: Re: 2011 M796 ABS Cold Start Issue
Post by: Curmudgeon on February 10, 2012, 01:09:40 PM
What curmudgeon was trying to tell you is that the engine internals are different and will probably react differently.

Not sure why you keep on bringing it up in his thread.

Hi "thought",

Correct..., as stated many times above. The ECU starting protocol is a lot different in the 796 vs. the 696, and the engine is higher compression, much like the 1100 evo with similar heads.

There is some combination of parameters, i.e. voltage, crank position, and the like, which is slightly off since ~ 500 miles.

There is a trick which works on the M1100 which I have been using, since it's utterly pointless to crank the bike again and again if it fails to start first time. Namely..., if she won't start on the first try, come back in ten minutes. It then always fires and continues running.

Last weekend I charged up all the batteries in the garage since none of the toys had been out for weeks. For giggles I tried the 796 with a full charge and the tender attached. No start... Came back in 10 minutes and it fired right up.

Two days later here and it was warm enough for a ride. Hit the button and it fired right up. Go figure. Obviously the stars were aligned.  ;) (Or crank sensor?)

Recently an 1100 rider had a stalling problem on cold start which turned out to be a couple of tight valve adjusters. Unlike the 796, the evo ECU doesn't shut everything down if it fails to fire immediately. You had a 796, so you know that ECU conks out instantly if it doesn't like what it sees.

I'll get the bike to Donnie when it's convenient. Meanwhile, the M1100 trick works..., and for the rest of the day the bike starts normally whether hot or cold. Next day is another matter...

Stay warm up there! We may get a flurry or two tomorrow night. I hope not or they'll drop the salt/sand/dirt mix they use down here which stays in the corners through July! At least the stuff you have in NJ is mostly gone after a good rain or two.


Title: Re: 2011 M796 ABS Cold Start Issue
Post by: Bishamon on March 23, 2012, 06:36:37 AM
I had a similar issue yesterday with my 796.  Since new it would occasionally not start on the first attempt, but it would only take another try or two and once it started, it would run fine.  Yesterday the problem was different.  It would start, then shut off.  I would start it again, and it had the same problem....  it would try to idle really low for a second and then shut right off.  I tried turning the key to the off position, waiting 30 seconds or so, and tried again...  no go.  I tried revving the throttle immediately after starting, but as soon as I let go it died again.  Finally I had to hold the throttle after starting and then keep it revved a little when stopped and in neutral for fear that it would stall again.  The bike was running fine, otherwise, with no warning lights or unusual behavior.  After a few minutes of riding I took a chance and let it idle on its own at a stop, and it was just fine.  It acted normal the rest of the way home.

It was quite warm out at a little over 20 Celsius, and it had fired up just fine in the morning for the ride to work and then sat for about 9 hours.  The bike had been on a tender prior to leaving in the morning as well, so the battery was fully charged.  I have been running ethanol-free Shell V-Power since new and the bike currently has under 3000kms on the clock.

Hopefully when I start it today it will be fine, but who knows?  Maybe I should try resetting the TPS, but I don't know why I should have to.


Title: Re: 2011 M796 ABS Cold Start Issue
Post by: Curmudgeon on March 23, 2012, 06:53:55 AM
Next time it won't start and run on the first attempt, wait five minutes to try again. Currently this is working on mine. I figure it has something to do with the ECU starting protocols. There are so many possible variables. Your fuel formulation may have just changed for summer too? The above trick I learned from an M1100S rider. BTW, mine always starts fine if it's been ridden and restarted within ~ 12 - 24 hours.


Title: Re: 2011 M796 ABS Cold Start Issue
Post by: Bishamon on March 23, 2012, 01:41:23 PM
It started at the first attempt today, though it seemed to rev a little high for a brief moment before settling into its normal post-start idle.


Title: Re: 2011 M796 ABS Cold Start Issue
Post by: Curmudgeon on March 23, 2012, 02:01:13 PM
It started at the first attempt today, though it seemed to rev a little high for a brief moment before settling into its normal post-start idle.

Ideally it should rev to ~ 2,000 briefly before the stepper motor settles it at ~ 1,200. If that's what happened, that's ideal.

Mine hadn't been out in 10 days, so this AM I used the method I suggested to you above. No start, wait five minutes, try again. It starts on the 2nd attempt and idles at 1,200..., or at least mine does. If you then immediately shut it down and come back in two hours, it will fire instantly and do as yours did today. Something obviously has to wake up in that ECU apparently

Keep me posted on yours.  ;)


Title: Re: 2011 M796 ABS Cold Start Issue
Post by: CFM on March 26, 2012, 07:29:59 PM
I own a 2011 monster 796.  I bought it used.  It had around 5000 miles on it.  I was having starting issues in the morning when i bought it.  A bunch of forum reading and research didn't do me any good.  I ended up changing the oil and that helped for a couple of weeks.  Then it started again.  Albeit less frequently.  Then i deleted the evap canister and that seemed to help again.  Now the starting issues are very intermittent.  Did the service one myself minus throttle body sync, which i wish someone knew how to do so they could teach me. Anyway after that the starting issues went away, BUT NOW the bike will start and idle for around 2 to 5 minutes and then randomly cutoff.  So i don't know what the problem is.  Nothing has changed, haven't installed or done any work.  Hope that helps people out there.  Good luck.


Title: Re: 2011 M796 ABS Cold Start Issue
Post by: Curmudgeon on March 26, 2012, 07:59:48 PM
Where are you? The bike is still under warranty, so if I were you, I'd call customer service at DNA and ask them to recommend a GOOD dealer who can plug into the ECU and check all the parameters. IMO a bike that new should not need throttle bodies synced. If the worst problem you have now is the bike stalling at idle as the O2 sensors are warm enough to cut in, just ride the thing. It starts when warm no issue, right?

Reading your other posts, there is no way a shade tree mechanic is going to be able to do everything on that bike IMO. There are LOTS of variables that Siemens ECU will be processing constantly and the Euro 3 mixture is already ragged edge lean. This is not a carbed bike with no emissions. Think modern sports car data processing but without knock sensors.


Title: Re: 2011 M796 ABS Cold Start Issue
Post by: CFM on March 27, 2012, 01:41:47 PM
I'm located in oahu. Temps in my area are around the 60s in the morning and after the sun comes up its warm enough. My issues however occur on even the hottest of days. I don't trust my dealer and because it's an island they are the only one. If what you say is true I may have to bite the bullet and see what they say.


Title: Re: 2011 M796 ABS Cold Start Issue
Post by: CFM on March 28, 2012, 08:26:34 AM
Update:  Yesterday when i got off work, the bike had beed sitting covered under a parking garage for several hours.  When i got off around noonish temps were in the 90s and when i went to start the bike it fired right up.  Then about ten seconds into idling it stuttered and almost cut off, then it continued to idle fine for another 20 seconds and stuttered a second time and almost cut off.  After that it idled fine and i rode off.  I wasn't touching the motorcycle nothing had changed, i don't understand why its doing this.


Title: Re: 2011 M796 ABS Cold Start Issue
Post by: Curmudgeon on March 28, 2012, 08:32:13 AM
Possibly because the O2 sensors were warming up. The bike is on a cold start map until the sensors are warm enough to provide data. Then the ECU adjusts the mixture to operate with that data. Usually you wouldn't notice because you'd be riding as the switch-over occurs.


Title: Re: 2011 M796 ABS Cold Start Issue
Post by: Nxtr6 on March 29, 2012, 06:16:20 PM
CFM, Mahalo... Hey I have an 09 1100S same issues you having, I have the termi slip ons and ecu, along with canister delete tried everything that has been mentioned, and found the fix that works the best is to open the gas cap prior to inserting key. I have had about a first time start 90% success rate, I did however finally have one of my buddies ask why I always open my tank before i started my bike, told it ways part of the security system disarm, HAHAHA...

No for the good news, the other morning i was struck with the 10%. I went through the motions turn off the stop run switch, turn off the key then decided what the heck. I turned the key back to on, and forgot to hit the run switch, and pushed the start button...

And... of course it didn't start...

But something happen that I have never seen, or may have missed discussed previously about the hard starting issue...

I always leave my high beams on, (being seen is worth the cost of a bulb) anyhow i noticed the the high beam light and indicator on the dash both shut off. additionally the fuel pump began whirring. I was like hmmm never done that before, so I then turned the run switch to start, and the high beam and indicator stayed off. My first thought was oh well, finally burned it out and proceeded to thumb the start button a wouldn't you know it she fired right up and the high beam and indicator came back on... now haven't had a false start since the other day, been trying to induce it by not using my open the gas cap trick to no avail... as soon as it happens again I'll post an update as to what happens...

Give it a try if it happens to you and let me know what your results are...

Has anyone else tried this?

Nick...   


Title: Re: 2011 M796 ABS Cold Start Issue
Post by: Curmudgeon on March 29, 2012, 07:06:24 PM
The gas cap trick is well discussed on the 1100S but no idea why it should matter with a canister delete. Gas cap has no effect on my 796 BTW. (Today it started instantly after a week anyway; go figure!). Using the kill switch or not has no effect on a 796 either, but I understand it can on an 1100S if you use the kill switch before turning off the key. The 1100S is Siemens I guess, but has a lot of other differences and is twin spark, right?

The headlight / kill switch thing sounds like a coincidence to me, but let us know how this pans out for you. As I've stated above, on my 796, if it won't fire on the first attempt, if I then wait five minutes before trying again, it always starts these days. Something obviously has to "wake up".


Title: Re: 2011 M796 ABS Cold Start Issue
Post by: CFM on March 30, 2012, 05:47:17 PM
UPDATE: I rode my motorcycle from work to my house, six miles, and to the dmv, three miles.  It is 81 degrees today.  When i came back outside after about 2 hours i tried to start my bike and it wouldn't even turn over.  it would try to catch and the rpm inidicated around 500 but it would just sputter out and die.  it took me 4 tries before it finally started.  There was another rider who was next to me while this was happening.  He asked if i get my gas on base and he said they put water in it.  He said to try and let it run dry as much as possible and fill it with fresh gas from a station that doesn't use water.  If the problem goes away then the starting issue was water in the fuel.  I have no idea why this would be happening to a new 2011 bike.  so im going to try it and post the results.


Title: Re: Re: 2011 M796 ABS Cold Start Issue
Post by: gitter on January 01, 2013, 02:27:28 PM
I read through this thread so if this has already been posted I apologize. I have the cold start issue on with my 2012 monster 796.

Here's what I have noticed: When I turn the key into the on position, sometimes I dont hear the exhaust valve motor (located under the seat) cycle. When the exhaust valve motor doesnt cycle the bike wont start. Usually if I play with the motor / cable, and turn the bike off and back to the on position, the exhaust valve will cycle and the bike will fire right up.

The only time my bike has not started when its been cold, have been the times that the exhaust valve doesnt cycle prior to attempting to start the bike. I havent figured out a solution to it yet.

For those of you with a 796 and this issue, I would be interested to know if your exhaust valve cycles before your bike doesnt start.

Gitter


Title: Re: 2011 M796 ABS Cold Start Issue
Post by: Curmudgeon on January 02, 2013, 08:49:15 AM
That's a really interesting observation! On mine I'm fairly certain the motor is cycling while I wait for the display to completely initialize. Maybe I'm just hearing the fuel pump though and not the distinct motor sound too. As it's 35 F here, it might be a while before I dig the bike out again, but I'll definitely listen carefully and report back here. So far the five minute wait between starting attempts has always worked.

Your bike must still be under warranty too, so perhaps get that whole assembly replaced while you can! If I find that valve motor is not cycling on mine, you can be sure I will have DNA replace mine before next July. ;)

My dealer is 140 miles from me, so I was hoping to get everything sorted at the 7,500 mile service when I could leave the bike for several days or a week. That service involves for me a minimum of two 280 mile trips and another driver, or more costly..., two trips with my son's big pick-up and bike trailer...


Title: Re: 2011 M796 ABS Cold Start Issue
Post by: freeclimbmtb on January 02, 2013, 11:15:09 AM
My '11 796 has a midpipe from a 696 so no flapper valve and a duc.ee motor eliminator so no CEL, I also have Arrow slipons with db killers removed.  No other engine mods (air filter/box, reflash, etc) I had cold start problems when it was less than 1000 miles or so, but since the exhaust mods, it fires no problem even down to 30F or so.  (Ill give it a start when I get home today as its about 20-25F out today.)



Title: Re: Re: 2011 M796 ABS Cold Start Issue
Post by: Howie on January 02, 2013, 11:43:07 AM
I read through this thread so if this has already been posted I apologize. I have the cold start issue on with my 2012 monster 796.

Here's what I have noticed: When I turn the key into the on position, sometimes I dont hear the exhaust valve motor (located under the seat) cycle. When the exhaust valve motor doesnt cycle the bike wont start. Usually if I play with the motor / cable, and turn the bike off and back to the on position, the exhaust valve will cycle and the bike will fire right up.

The only time my bike has not started when its been cold, have been the times that the exhaust valve doesnt cycle prior to attempting to start the bike. I havent figured out a solution to it yet.

For those of you with a 796 and this issue, I would be interested to know if your exhaust valve cycles before your bike doesnt start.

Gitter

You might have something there, I'm anxious to hear from 796 owners.

You might have something there, I'm anxious to hear from 796 owners.


Title: Re: 2011 M796 ABS Cold Start Issue
Post by: gitter on January 02, 2013, 03:07:36 PM
If it turns out to be the case, I think a duc ee is in my future as it seems like that is the most painless option. (and I can get rid of the dead weight)


Title: Re: 2011 M796 ABS Cold Start Issue
Post by: crush02342002 on January 02, 2013, 06:38:46 PM
13' m796 here with some start/stalling issues. a few times iv started my bike up in the morning and let it idle while i get my gear on (5-10min) after five min it dies but starts right back up. a hand full of times it was hard starting as if the batt just lacked the juice to turn the engine over. got a tad bit over 1k miles on it with no mods unless you count the plug for my heated gear. the stalling though has happend even before I installed the heated gear plug. Told my dealer about it at my 600mile service and they told me it will go away after the service. I wondered how a simple oil change would stop the stalling issue, felt a bit more confident when i was told they would upload updates to the ecu. when they finished I asked if there were any new updates loaded and they said that I had the current updated already.

Ill pay more attention to the exhaust valve and take notes. who knows


Title: Re: 2011 M796 ABS Cold Start Issue
Post by: Curmudgeon on January 02, 2013, 07:52:49 PM
Crush,

Can't comment on your hard start as I've never had a cranking issue, but your bike dying after idling for 5 minutes is not abnormal particularly. My guess, the O2 sensors are kicking in as they get hot enough and the initial sensor settings the ECU received are no longer appropriate. Restarting also resets the ECU for the "outside" vs garage conditions.

If you take off one day and the bike isn't running just right after a few minutes, pull over and shut down for ~ 15 - 20 seconds. When you restart, the ECU resets and It'll be running just the way you want. Siemens is just like a car, only missing a few sensor inputs. That creates some of these issues.


Title: Re: 2011 M796 ABS Cold Start Issue
Post by: cyberswine on January 02, 2013, 11:50:55 PM
Never had cold starting problems on mine (so far) but to refresh an issue with the exhasut valve:  if you think it may be causing a problem just disconnect the drive cable from the motor.  The valve defaults to open and as long as you leave the electrical harness connected you will not have any EXV errors.  It really is that simple, it's worked for me for over 13k klicks and others have reported the same thing.  The only thing a Duc EE would do for me is save a few ounces in weight by removing the motor. 


Title: Re: 2011 M796 ABS Cold Start Issue
Post by: freeclimbmtb on January 03, 2013, 04:13:04 AM
...The only thing a Duc EE would do for me is save a few ounces in weight by removing the motor.  

(It'll also let you run a 696 tail tidy for an even cleaner flatter tail. Not that I did this...but I'm just saying...you could...) 

My main motivation for junking the exhaust flapper was to use a clean (flapperless) midpipe (for aesthetics...theres a lot on this subject but the gist is that the flapper is only shut for idle and i think 200rpm above idle for noise, once your on the throttle, it goes wide open), and if the motor isn't doing anything at that point...why have it at all...hence the Duc.ee  It just so happened I forgot all about the cold start issue some time after I did the mod.

I did start the bike last night, fired with NO issue or hesitation at all.  It was about 30F in the garage. (woke up to 5F with a windchill down to -20F today.  FML, why did I leave San Diego?!)


Title: Re: 2011 M796 ABS Cold Start Issue
Post by: gitter on January 03, 2013, 03:45:56 PM
So if i remove the cable and leave the motor in there it could possibly take care of the problem? Is there anything in the ecu programming that would prevent the bike from starting if the exhaust valve motor doesnt cycle prior to attempting to start the bike?


Title: Re: 2011 M796 ABS Cold Start Issue
Post by: Curmudgeon on January 03, 2013, 10:12:36 PM
That remains to be seen. Toss a coin.  ;)

If your supposition about your bike not starting when the flap motor fails to cycle is correct, then that would tend to indicate that the ECU doesn't like it. You already know as a 796 owner that the ECU shuts down either the fuel or spark whenever the bike fails to catch almost immediately. Pity really, as I think it would catch with a few more revolutions.


Title: Re: 2011 M796 ABS Cold Start Issue
Post by: cyberswine on January 03, 2013, 11:31:58 PM
To clarify, if the drive cable is removed from the motor and the electrics are connected the motor itself still cycles, it just spins idly and does it's thing and then tells the ECU all is good.  It may or may not help the specific starting situation, who knows.
I now have had a reflash done which eliminates the whole thing anyway and that could possibly be another answer if one was on the horizon anyway?


Title: Re: 2011 M796 ABS Cold Start Issue
Post by: freeclimbmtb on January 04, 2013, 03:44:13 AM
...You already know as a 796 owner that the ECU shuts down either the fuel or spark whenever the bike fails to catch almost immediately. Pity really, as I think it would catch with a few more revolutions.


????

Never heard of this.  Back before I did any exhaust mods and had the cold start problem, it would fire after 30 or so seconds of cranking but not catch, then after that it would usually catch after 5-10 seconds of cranking if I held the throttle at 5% open or so...

Ive never heard (or experienced) the situation described above...


Title: Re: 2011 M796 ABS Cold Start Issue
Post by: Curmudgeon on January 04, 2013, 08:19:37 AM
????

Never heard of this.  Back before I did any exhaust mods and had the cold start problem, it would fire after 30 or so seconds of cranking but not catch, then after that it would usually catch after 5-10 seconds of cranking if I held the throttle at 5% open or so...

Ive never heard (or experienced) the situation described above...

Obviously your bike has carbs. ;D

And BTW..., anyone who cranks any starter more than 10 - 15 seconds max will be buying a new one soon. Touching the throttle will also achieve nothing but confusing the #%@* out of the ECU..., unless you ride a 696.  [roll]

This thread is about a 796 cold start issue on a stone stock bike. They really are supposed to start or DNA is obliged to rectify it. This thread is not about mods I can do to eliminate the issue entirely. It's fairly well established that the race ECU, filter kit and Termi's do. Personally I neither need that expense nor like the looks..., unless DNA wants to give me the homoligated titanium kit gratis. Not happening in this lifetime I'm pretty sure. 8)


Title: Re: 2011 M796 ABS Cold Start Issue
Post by: freeclimbmtb on January 04, 2013, 08:21:55 AM
This thread is not about mods I can do to eliminate the issue entirely.
Then I clearly have no idea what this thread is about.

To each their own I suppose.  15k miles on my starter, never had an issue.  Best of luck solving your problem.


Title: Re: 2011 M796 ABS Cold Start Issue
Post by: Howie on January 04, 2013, 09:58:42 AM
Obviously your bike has carbs. ;D

And BTW..., anyone who cranks any starter more than 10 - 15 seconds max will be buying a new one soon. Touching the throttle will also achieve nothing but confusing the #%@* out of the ECU..., unless you ride a 696.  [roll]

This thread is about a 796 cold start issue on a stone stock bike. They really are supposed to start or DNA is obliged to rectify it. This thread is not about mods I can do to eliminate the issue entirely. It's fairly well established that the race ECU, filter kit and Termi's do. Personally I neither need that expense nor like the looks..., unless DNA wants to give me the homoligated titanium kit gratis. Not happening in this lifetime I'm pretty sure. 8)

If you read freeclimbmtb's signature you will see he has a
Quote
2011 Monster 796 ABS


Title: Re: 2011 M796 ABS Cold Start Issue
Post by: Curmudgeon on January 04, 2013, 10:32:43 AM
If you read freeclimbmtb's signature you will see he has a
Without a doubt, and also far from stock. ;)


Title: Re: 2011 M796 ABS Cold Start Issue
Post by: gitter on January 04, 2013, 03:43:59 PM
Just an update: removed the cable. Turned the key to the on position, servo motor cycled as normal (sans cable) bike started right up and idled fine. Will report back once I have more info / data.

Side note to the o.p. - if you want this to be a cold start thread about strictly stock bikes and rectifying the issue through DNA let me know and I would be happy to start my own thread.


Title: Re: 2011 M796 ABS Cold Start Issue
Post by: bob795 on January 04, 2013, 08:08:33 PM
Curmudgeon, have you find the fix for this issue?

I have similar problem, posted mine in different thread cause I wasn't aware of this thread. Anyway, my bike is 2012 monster 795, and the past two days (yesterday and the day before) my bike was hard to start, when cold. Similar symptom with what you described. Strange thing is it only happened (both times) when I was about to leave the office in the evening. On both days, the bike started right away with no problem in the morning.
This, morning after I wash the bike, it also started right away with just one push in the starter button.


Title: Re: 2011 M796 ABS Cold Start Issue
Post by: Curmudgeon on January 04, 2013, 08:46:07 PM
Not sure the issue is the same. Mine fails to start after sitting for a day or more. Never had an issue with starting on the first attempt when it has been ridden already during the day and/or while the immobilizer light is still flashing. I presume your engine and ECU are identical but I'm not completely sure.

How many miles on yours? Had your first service? Sometimes odd quirks disappear after 1,000 - 1,500 miles. A couple of throttle quirks I had did disappear.

Is your dealer local? You could have him hook up the hand tester and look for any odd readings while you try to start. If he's far away, you could always reset your TPS and see if that makes any difference. To do this on Siemens, just turn your key on until the odometer display comes up, turn it off for a few seconds and then repeat this process two more times. Do NOT hit the starter or move the throttle when you do this. THEN try to start the bike.

No simple answer as ~ 40 things can produce your symptom.


Title: Re: 2011 M796 ABS Cold Start Issue
Post by: bob795 on January 04, 2013, 09:43:26 PM
Thanks Curmudgeon.

My bike has 2600 km and had its first serviced at 1000 km. I ride it everyday, except those days between Christmas and new year, when I was on leave. I left the bike in the garage and didn't start it until January 2d, that's when it happened for the first time. 
Anyway, the dealer is local and I plan to take my bike there if it happens again.
Thanks again Curmudgeon.


Title: Re: 2011 M796 ABS Cold Start Issue
Post by: Curmudgeon on January 05, 2013, 02:33:11 PM
Keep us posted. Even though your issue is different than mine, if it recurs and you find a solution, others here may also benefit.

While you're at it, mail me some of you 90 F weather for a few days!  ;) Freezing in VA at the moment!


Title: Re: 2011 M796 ABS Cold Start Issue
Post by: subin on January 07, 2013, 11:03:49 AM
Mine is 2012 M796 with about 450 mi and the cold start issue happened twice. Once at around 100 mi and the symptom was that when I pressed the start button, it cranked for a couple of seconds and then stopped. I then OFF/ON the ignition (wait for the display to scrolled through) and tried again, but the same. I did this 3 times and finally decided to just hold the starter button and it cranked for 3 seconds and started. Keep in mind that the battery is fully charged with battery tender jr.

After that, I had the ECU reflashed and this happened again at about 400 mi. This time, I did not OFF/ON the ignition switch and it took me three tries (pushed start button) to start the bike.
I only ride on the weekends, so the bike was parked inside the garage after each ride for about six days in between rides. I have not experienced when the bike is warm or if there are an hour or two between the ride. It is not a concern yet, but I am keeping an eye on it.


Title: Re: 2011 M796 ABS Cold Start Issue
Post by: Curmudgeon on January 07, 2013, 01:03:13 PM
OK, that sounds virtually identical to my symptom. Of course, hold the starter button until it quits. If mine didn't start the first time, it never then started without the on/off, scroll ECU reset unless I cranked it 10 - 15 times..., which I did not feel was "healthy".

For chuckles, if yours doesn't fire on the first attempt on cold start, wait five minutes and try again. So far that has worked for me 98% of the time. It seemed to me that something in the ECU needed that time to reset.

How far are you from your dealer? Mine is 140 miles and "less than convenient". If your issue persists and DNA finally figures out a fix, let us know here! Let your dealer also know that you are not the only one with this identical issue.

Like yours, mine always re-starts when it has been ridden that day. When I had this checked out at 900 miles during my first service, the dealer also found no immobilizer issue, but naturally that day the light was still flashing. BTW, mine's a 2011 with 4,000 miles currently. No ethanol gas and evaps canister removed, although it had this issue from ~ 400 miles and the canister delete had no effect on this cold start issue.

Good info!


Title: Re: 2011 M796 ABS Cold Start Issue
Post by: cmejia1978 on January 07, 2013, 01:05:41 PM
I have an old Monster ( 2002 ) but since I've shopping around for a new LiOn - rechargeable Battery I have read on several sites that for temperatures below 40F - 45F they recommend a 12 cell battery not the standard 8 cell, don't know if this is your case but maybe this helps...


Title: Re: 2011 M796 ABS Cold Start Issue
Post by: Curmudgeon on January 07, 2013, 01:12:01 PM
I have an old Monster ( 2002 ) but since I've shopping around for a new LiOn - rechargeable Battery I have read on several sites that for temperatures below 40F - 45F they recommend a 12 cell battery not the standard 8 cell, don't know if this is your case but maybe this helps...
Never say never..., but probably totally unrelated. The engine management and design are just very different. Older bikes also benefit hugely from upgraded battery and starter cables, so they appear to have had a voltage problem.

On these 796's, the cranking can be VERY healthy and the voltage reading high, and STILL no start.


Title: Re: 2011 M796 ABS Cold Start Issue
Post by: gitter on June 29, 2013, 10:24:12 AM
I posted in this thread a while back. I was having the cold start issue. I removed the exhaust servo motor and cable, replaced it with a duc.EE and I havent had a cold start issue since. I'm not sure how the exhaust valve would have and effect on cold starts, but I found this to be noteworthy.


Title: Re: 2011 M796 ABS Cold Start Issue
Post by: Matiasneto on June 14, 2014, 02:15:20 PM
hi guys sorry to bring back this old thread. i am having the same problems as was stated before. I am out of warranty so the dealer is out of the question. The voltage on the battery seems fine, don't know what else it could be


Title: Re: 2011 M796 ABS Cold Start Issue
Post by: Curmudgeon on June 14, 2014, 02:27:35 PM
hi guys sorry to bring back this old thread. i am having the same problems as was stated before. I am out of warranty so the dealer is out of the question. The voltage on the battery seems fine, don't know what else it could be

If it doesn't catch on the first try and your battery is fully charged, wait 5 minutes and try again. Mine always starts then. Never a problem with warm restarts or restarting the same day. Only if mine sits more than a day.


Title: Re: 2011 M796 ABS Cold Start Issue
Post by: Matiasneto on June 16, 2014, 12:49:16 PM
I have a check engine light on. its the exvl code


Title: Re: 2011 M796 ABS Cold Start Issue
Post by: Curmudgeon on June 16, 2014, 01:19:21 PM
Have you been doing mods or playing around with anything?! [roll]

http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=63190.0 (http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=63190.0)


Title: Re: 2011 M796 ABS Cold Start Issue
Post by: Howie on June 16, 2014, 11:30:43 PM
Exhaust valve code.  I have no idea why this affects starting, but it seems it does.


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