Ducati Monster Forum

Moto Board => Tech => Topic started by: accludetuner on May 04, 2011, 07:49:30 PM



Title: Ducati ECU Tuning Resources
Post by: accludetuner on May 04, 2011, 07:49:30 PM
I don't have any specific questions right now, but I've been searching for in-depth Ducati ECU tuning resources. I was a mechanic and tuner for cars for over 10 years and wanted to start venturing into that territory with the Duc. Problem is that I can't find any great resources. Tid-bits of information here and there, but no in-depth resources.

Any one know of any sites where I can get things like:

list of ECU model per bike model and what's compatible/interchangeable (with the right chip of course)
Good software (besides the usual TunerPro RT) and basemaps available for download
ECU hacks and mods
known issues and things to watch out for when tuning
typical "safe" fuel/ignition specs to create basemaps
datalogging (if it can be done pulling sensor readings from the ECU instead of buying aftermarket units)
well, you get the idea of what I'm looking for!!!


I have all my tuning stuff for cars (EPROMs, burner/reader, LAMBDA, EGT, laptop setup for tuning, various semiconductors, soldering station and other stuff) but I want to read up on it before I dissect my first Duc ECU!!!

Any help is appreciated!


Title: Re: Ducati ECU Tuning Resources
Post by: accludetuner on May 05, 2011, 03:30:22 AM
No one so far?

Well then, aside from hacking the stock ECUs, what is everyone doing for tuning? PCIII or what


Title: Re: Ducati ECU Tuning Resources
Post by: ducpainter on May 05, 2011, 03:34:00 AM
Most are sending the ecu's out to the various retailers for reflashing.


Title: Re: Ducati ECU Tuning Resources
Post by: accludetuner on May 05, 2011, 03:44:02 AM
Well that's what I'm looking to do...but not retail...just for myself and maybe a few others.

So what I'm hearing is that I should make friends with a retailer that re-flashes and hound them for the information I'm looking for. :(


Title: Re: Ducati ECU Tuning Resources
Post by: ducpainter on May 05, 2011, 03:47:48 AM
Well that's what I'm looking to do...but not retail...just for myself and maybe a few others.

So what I'm hearing is that I should make friends with a retailer that re-flashes and hound them for the information I'm looking for. :(
Good luck with that.

From what I understand the Marelli 5.9 ecu is a nightmare and anyone that put money into developing a hack is going to be less than forthcoming with the secrets.


Title: Re: Ducati ECU Tuning Resources
Post by: accludetuner on May 05, 2011, 04:19:33 AM
That seems to be the norm, except for a few communities that highly encourage open source solutions and collaboration. Those communities also seem to advance the quickest and offer the most and best solutions to tuning. PGMFI.org is a good example for the Honda/Acura community. TONS of info, software, basemaps, and people to learn from.

So, I think I see a void in the Duc community that needs to be filled. I just registered ductune.com and will work on building a community in my spare time to collaborate and share info until the Ducati community has some effective and free (or at least cheap) DIY tuning solutions. I'll probably get it added as a sponsor once it gets a little established and has some content. Hopefully this actually goes somewhere.


Title: Re: Ducati ECU Tuning Resources
Post by: ducpainter on May 05, 2011, 12:14:53 PM
Good luck with your venture.

Don't forget that Ducati now uses a Siemens ecu so in order to have good coverage of the product line you'll need to hack more than one type of /hardware/software.

The early injected bikes used a few different versions of Marelli hardware to add to the fun, and the old carbies could use some lovin' in the ignition area too.

This thread might be of interest to you also...http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=48442.0 (http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=48442.0)


Title: Re: Ducati ECU Tuning Resources
Post by: Speeddog on May 05, 2011, 12:47:40 PM
 [coffee]

<bookmark>


Title: Re: Ducati ECU Tuning Resources
Post by: accludetuner on September 22, 2011, 01:19:57 PM
I'm working on the site and should have it available soon.

One way you all can help is to take hi-res pictures of the ECU boards, front and back. Also, if any of you have a chip reader, snag the chip out and make a copy of the stock bin files on them. Thanks!


Title: Re: Ducati ECU Tuning Resources
Post by: Speeddog on September 22, 2011, 02:59:19 PM
You know that all of the Monster ECU's are sealed units, right?


Title: Re: Ducati ECU Tuning Resources
Post by: accludetuner on September 22, 2011, 03:18:08 PM
Nope. I'm new to Ducati ECUs. Been tuning automotive ECUs for years though. This is the kind of stuff that will be on the site.

As for being sealed, there's gotta be a way to open them. They got the board in there so there's gotta be a way to get it out.


Title: Re: Ducati ECU Tuning Resources
Post by: Speeddog on September 22, 2011, 04:40:19 PM
I guess I should have been more specific.

AFAIK, the case is glued together at assembly.
So 'opening' the case would be destructive.

Additionally, the Magneti-Marelli 5.9 ECU is surface mount, so the chip doesn't slip out.
Pretty sure the newer Siemens ECU is the same construction.



Title: Re: Ducati ECU Tuning Resources
Post by: Meerkat on September 22, 2011, 05:10:38 PM
JP has programs the read, edit and write some of the ECUs: http://ducatidiag.xooit.com/index.php (http://ducatidiag.xooit.com/index.php)


Title: Re: Ducati ECU Tuning Resources
Post by: accludetuner on September 22, 2011, 05:53:25 PM
Speeddog - I'll take a closer look at the next monster case and see for myself. I'd be willing to bet that there's a way to open it and reseal it without destroying it.

As for the surface mount chips, I have no issues desoldering it and soldering in a zif socket. Do you know the chip size for those by chance?

Ducatician - Thanks for the link! Checking them out now to see what's currently available. Eventually i'd like to write my own program for altering the bin files and hopefully for datalogging as well.


Title: Re: Ducati ECU Tuning Resources
Post by: Speeddog on September 22, 2011, 10:04:16 PM
I've not opened any ECU's, so no idea of the chip size or other info.

Grab yourself some and have at it.



Title: Re: Ducati ECU Tuning Resources
Post by: accludetuner on September 22, 2011, 10:25:52 PM
I'm trying to find info on the distinct ECU "families." Like the sbk's are all in one "family" with the 996 being the one real oddball. Anyone have a good refernece on all the different families of duc ECUs?

Also, anyone interested in helping with the site? Moderator or something like that? Maybe give some input on site setup before it goes live?


Title: Re: Ducati ECU Tuning Resources
Post by: Speeddog on September 23, 2011, 08:00:51 AM
If you Google "ducati ecu models", you'll find some good info.

Like this:

http://www.ducati.ms/forums/11-ducati-motorcycle-chat/60175-model-ecu-list.html (http://www.ducati.ms/forums/11-ducati-motorcycle-chat/60175-model-ecu-list.html)


Title: Re: Ducati ECU Tuning Resources
Post by: adduncan101 on September 27, 2011, 08:40:48 AM
accludetuner,
This is something I really loved about my sporty. There are not as many easy ECU mods for these scoots. There is a dude by the name of "Rico" on the XL Forum that is a wiz with the HD units, he helped me a ton. I have a Daytona TC88 module in the Sporty and it is easily programed with the TC88 software. There has to be an easy hack for the Ducs. Please let me know if I can help.


Title: Re: Ducati ECU Tuning Resources
Post by: CDawg on September 28, 2011, 05:54:22 AM
<bookmark>  [popcorn]


Title: Re: Ducati ECU Tuning Resources
Post by: greenmonster on September 29, 2011, 03:38:25 AM
Not much f free out there I think.
Takes a lot of time & skill to crack ECU`s, maybe not surpricing few are giving the knowledge away.

Here is one, though, f 1.6:
http://ftp.pwp.att.net/w/a/wayneorwig/utils.html#ecuedit (http://ftp.pwp.att.net/w/a/wayneorwig/utils.html#ecuedit)

I think the best way of getting info is having something to share, info the tuners could use in exchange f their knowledge.
You must also consider ECU tuning/modifying is a part of their business.


Title: Re: Ducati ECU Tuning Resources
Post by: accludetuner on October 04, 2011, 09:47:07 PM
Just a quick update for anyone curious....

I've copied the stock 748 memcal to my laptop and have started dissecting it.

I also have all the documentation for the MC68HC11 MCU that's within the 16M ECU (and I suspect many other Duc ECUs as well).

I'm going through and picking apart the bin now and have made some very serious progress. I also found a very incomplete, yet functional XDF for the 16M ECUs (thanks for Desmo over at Speedzilla.com) to allow tuning through TunerPro which I am very familiar with and have used to tune several cars in the past. Using that XDF as a base and my bin file, I've found all the NECESSARY stuff to perform basic tuning on the 16M ECUs. I'm still working on finding other tables and options within the bin to allow for more advanced tuning and to figure out proper datalogging and emulation capabilities.

The site is basically done, but I'm working on setting it up with all of the knowledge I currently have, as well as all the files, software, documentation, and other things that I have so that once it goes live, it's a great starting point for anyone interested in tuning themselves, or helping out with hacking the Ducs ECUs to expand the community.

Keep in mind that I'm working on this in my spare time (which is not a lot right now) so it might take some time for me to fill up the site and post it live, but I'd rather it be a solid start that's organized and presentable than a terrible clusterF like most sites.

Bottom line is that I'm already at a point that I can tune my own Duc with my own computer and since I had all of my old tuning stuff it cost me $0. Now I'm looking to expand the current DIY tuning possibilities for the 16M ECUs and to make the same tuning options available to all of the FI Ducs :)


Title: Re: Ducati ECU Tuning Resources
Post by: accludetuner on October 05, 2011, 12:25:44 AM
Also,

IF THIS CODE:

Code:
A8B0 15 22 10        LA8B0 bclr L0022, #%00010000
A8B3 13 20 04 15      brclr L0020, #%00000100, LA8CC
A8B7 14 20 0C        bset L0020, #%00001100
A8BA 14 0B 10        bset TMR_OCR1d, #%00010000
A8BD DC 0E            ldD L000E
A8BF FD 20 E2        stD L20E2
A8C2 F3 01 B5        addD L01B5
A8C5 DD 1C            stD TMR_OCR3d
A8C7 15 20 04        bclr L0020, #%00000100
A8CA 20 2A            jr LA8F6
;
A8CC B6 01 73        LA8CC ldaA L0173
A8CF F6 01 C3        ldaB L01C3
A8D2 3D              mul
A8D3 8F              xgDX
A8D4 B6 01 74        ldaA L0174
A8D7 F6 01 C3        ldaB L01C3
A8DA 3D              mul
A8DB 89 20            adcA #$20
A8DD 16              tAB
A8DE 3A              aBX
A8DF 8F              xgDX
A8E0 FD 01 A7        stD L01A7
A8E3 F3 20 E4        addD L20E4
A8E6 DD 1C            stD TMR_OCR3d
A8E8 DC 0E            ldD L000E
A8EA B3 20 E4        subD L20E4
A8ED 1A B3 01 A7      cmpD L01A7
A8F1 25 03            bcs LA8F6
A8F3 14 0B 10        bset TMR_OCR1d, #%00010000
A8F6 7F 01 6F        LA8F6 clr L016F
A8F9 FC 01 73        ldD L0173
A8FC FD 01 76        stD L0176
A8FF B6 01 72        ldaA L0172
A902 B7 01 75        staA L0175
A905 B6 20 EA        ldaA L20EA
A908 B1 01 3C        cmpA L013C
A90B 26 18            bne LA925
A90D 14 AC 08        bset L00AC, #%00001000
A910 13 20 20 06      brclr L0020, #%00100000, LA91A
A914 15 20 10        bclr L0020, #%00010000
A917 14 0B 20        bset TMR_OCR1d, #%00100000
A91A 15 B0 40        LA91A bclr L00B0, #%01000000
A91D 15 AA 10        bclr L00AA, #%00010000
A920 BD B5 B8        call LB5B8
A923 20 1B            jr LA940
;

makes any sense to you, then I could certainly use your help reverse engineering this thing. There's about 8 thousands lines of code to go through and doing it in my spare time will take forever. Plus I've tuned cars before, but that was using existing bin files and existing definitions. This is my first time digging down to the assembly level to make it happen. I've got a decent grip on it, but I'm very slow and have to do a lot of research as I go. Some help commenting out the disassembled file would certainly speed things up!!!


Title: Re: Ducati ECU Tuning Resources
Post by: CDawg on October 05, 2011, 05:17:04 AM
Wow!  Cool progress.  Sorry I cannot help as I have no relevant skills.


Title: Re: Ducati ECU Tuning Resources
Post by: nicholasv on December 30, 2011, 11:41:19 PM
So I have started to get interested in this as well.  Seems there just isn't any info on hacking the Ducati ECU like in the auto world.

From looking at Ducatidiag and learning a little bit about the OBD protocols, it looks like its just a matter or learning what Standard PID's are supported on the various ECUs (like RPM, and temp) and what proprietary Magnetti-Marelli or Ducati specific PID's are needed to access everything else.

I am assuming that Ducatidiag writer is also using OBD to flash the ECU, reset the immobilizer, etc.

I have mixed feelings about paying €100 for the writer software.  I kinda feel like that should be shared openly (at least the protocol / PIDs etc) and maybe one should ask for a donation for upkeep and development of the software.

Anyway, I might spend some time on an Android app to do some of this.  Your site would be a great place to share infomation about all this.


Title: Re: Ducati ECU Tuning Resources
Post by: HotIce on January 01, 2012, 10:11:37 AM
I hope you like hacking because the time of doing that starting from zero will account for far more than hundred bucks.
Unless Syneject M3C ECU sheets will leak (I failed in finding any traces), you have to start from zero.
First, you have to understand the protocol used to read/write image files within the ECU. Could be KWP2K/ISO, but you don't know.
If you have something which is already able to read/write, you have to sniff the transaction (serial, CAN, K-line, ... - depending of the HW interface of the tool you have) and see the traffic which is going on.
This will likely include some sort of "authentication" between the tester and the ECU, probably based on some "seed" passed by the ECU to the tester.
Once you understand the protocol to read/write, you might want to be very successful in reading the existing images and writing them back, unless you want to run over many bricked ECUs.
Once you are able to do that, you are at 1/3 of the way.
Then the joy starts, and you have to be able to reverse engineer the image file, understand what zones are code, and what zones are maps.
And the maps, there is more than one, so you have to understand which one controls what. You are going to be looking at a very wild Monster otherwise.
When you are perfectly able to understand which maps are for what, you need to have something which allows you to extract them and edit them easily (as they are a few thousand values arrays).
Final part, you have to reverse engineer the checksum used by the ECU to validate the image file.

Or, you can bribe some Chinese/Taiwanese at Synerject and get the specs  ;D

http://www.synerject.com/contacts.html (http://www.synerject.com/contacts.html)


Title: Re: Ducati ECU Tuning Resources
Post by: HotIce on January 01, 2012, 10:29:33 AM
Also,

IF THIS CODE:

Code:
A8B0 15 22 10        LA8B0 bclr L0022, #%00010000
A8B3 13 20 04 15     brclr L0020, #%00000100, LA8CC
A8B7 14 20 0C         bset L0020, #%00001100
A8BA 14 0B 10         bset TMR_OCR1d, #%00010000
A8BD DC 0E           ldD L000E
A8BF FD 20 E2         stD L20E2
A8C2 F3 01 B5         addD L01B5
A8C5 DD 1C           stD TMR_OCR3d
A8C7 15 20 04         bclr L0020, #%00000100
A8CA 20 2A           jr LA8F6
;
A8CC B6 01 73        LA8CC ldaA L0173
A8CF F6 01 C3         ldaB L01C3
A8D2 3D               mul
A8D3 8F               xgDX
A8D4 B6 01 74         ldaA L0174
A8D7 F6 01 C3         ldaB L01C3
A8DA 3D               mul
A8DB 89 20           adcA #$20
A8DD 16               tAB
A8DE 3A               aBX
A8DF 8F               xgDX
A8E0 FD 01 A7         stD L01A7
A8E3 F3 20 E4         addD L20E4
A8E6 DD 1C           stD TMR_OCR3d
A8E8 DC 0E           ldD L000E
A8EA B3 20 E4         subD L20E4
A8ED 1A B3 01 A7     cmpD L01A7
A8F1 25 03           bcs LA8F6
A8F3 14 0B 10         bset TMR_OCR1d, #%00010000
A8F6 7F 01 6F        LA8F6 clr L016F
A8F9 FC 01 73         ldD L0173
A8FC FD 01 76         stD L0176
A8FF B6 01 72         ldaA L0172
A902 B7 01 75         staA L0175
A905 B6 20 EA         ldaA L20EA
A908 B1 01 3C         cmpA L013C
A90B 26 18           bne LA925
A90D 14 AC 08         bset L00AC, #%00001000
A910 13 20 20 06     brclr L0020, #%00100000, LA91A
A914 15 20 10         bclr L0020, #%00010000
A917 14 0B 20         bset TMR_OCR1d, #%00100000
A91A 15 B0 40        LA91A bclr L00B0, #%01000000
A91D 15 AA 10         bclr L00AA, #%00010000
A920 BD B5 B8         call LB5B8
A923 20 1B           jr LA940
;

makes any sense to you, then I could certainly use your help reverse engineering this thing. There's about 8 thousands lines of code to go through and doing it in my spare time will take forever. Plus I've tuned cars before, but that was using existing bin files and existing definitions. This is my first time digging down to the assembly level to make it happen. I've got a decent grip on it, but I'm very slow and have to do a lot of research as I go. Some help commenting out the disassembled file would certainly speed things up!!!
Here's the S12X manual, which should be is the main CPU within the M3C ECU:

http://www.freescale.com/files/microcontrollers/doc/ref_manual/S12XCPUV1.pdf (http://www.freescale.com/files/microcontrollers/doc/ref_manual/S12XCPUV1.pdf)



Title: Re: Ducati ECU Tuning Resources
Post by: accludetuner on January 01, 2012, 03:04:49 PM
I hope you like hacking because the time of doing that starting from zero will account for far more than hundred bucks.
Unless Syneject M3C ECU sheets will leak (I failed in finding any traces), you have to start from zero.
First, you have to understand the protocol used to read/write image files within the ECU. Could be KWP2K/ISO, but you don't know.
If you have something which is already able to read/write, you have to sniff the transaction (serial, CAN, K-line, ... - depending of the HW interface of the tool you have) and see the traffic which is going on.
This will likely include some sort of "authentication" between the tester and the ECU, probably based on some "seed" passed by the ECU to the tester.
Once you understand the protocol to read/write, you might want to be very successful in reading the existing images and writing them back, unless you want to run over many bricked ECUs.
Once you are able to do that, you are at 1/3 of the way.
Then the joy starts, and you have to be able to reverse engineer the image file, understand what zones are code, and what zones are maps.
And the maps, there is more than one, so you have to understand which one controls what. You are going to be looking at a very wild Monster otherwise.
When you are perfectly able to understand which maps are for what, you need to have something which allows you to extract them and edit them easily (as they are a few thousand values arrays).
Final part, you have to reverse engineer the checksum used by the ECU to validate the image file.

Or, you can bribe some Chinese/Taiwanese at Synerject and get the specs  ;D

http://www.synerject.com/contacts.html (http://www.synerject.com/contacts.html)


ALL good info and that's the point of the site......to get a COMMUNITY EFFORT in making all of this stuff work.



I don't have anything on M3C's but does this give you an idea of what I'm working with for my 16M from my 748?

From the full 8k lines of assembly code I posted above, I was able to figure out enough to make a definition file for use with TunerPro. The bin has no checksum so I got lucky with that. Here's my VERY BASIC, yet functional bin file being edited in action It's FAR from complete, but it is to a point that you can tune with it :)

(http://www.ductune.com/tunerpro_chart.JPG)



Here's the same table thrown into a spreadsheet and a chart made for it:

(http://www.ductune.com/ecuedduc_spreadsheet_chart.JPG)



And this is both of the charts side by side. The spreadsheet is primitive but it's the same data and there are several ways to manipulate it:

(http://www.ductune.com/ecuedduc_tunerpro_charts.JPG)


Title: Re: Ducati ECU Tuning Resources
Post by: HotIce on January 01, 2012, 03:16:36 PM
Did you try to upload your map?
Because, that's where the check-sum comes into place. It seems really strange that any firmware of that kind, allows you to drop an image into Flash/EPROM without any kind of validation. If not for anti-tempering, only for simple data verification.
Just to be clear, check-sum is not encryption, but validation, so the fact you can look at clear-text data does not mean that you will be able to push your edited image into the ECU (without compiling the proper check-sum field into the image file).



Title: Re: Ducati ECU Tuning Resources
Post by: accludetuner on January 01, 2012, 03:20:54 PM
I have burned the stock bin to another chip, re-read that new chip to the computer, and then compared it against the original bin file and there were no conflicts. That's telling me no checksum. Again, this is for my 10+ year old ECU and the newer ones may be (and probably are) different.


Title: Re: Ducati ECU Tuning Resources
Post by: nicholasv on January 01, 2012, 03:33:22 PM
So right now I am most interested in the last generation, IAW5AM.

It looks like from tools (DucatiDiag, TuneECU, TuneBoy, Rexx ECU)
reading and writing the flash can be done via OBD commands.

I am very curious if anyone knows how these guys (especially the free tools) figured out what OBD PIDs and formats to use for various things.

From what I can tell from DucatiDiag, the MM IAW uses a proprietary mode 21 for most of the behavior.
So besides just trying every number you can and trying to reverse engineer things, I am hoping there is something quicker.  


Title: Re: Ducati ECU Tuning Resources
Post by: HotIce on January 01, 2012, 03:40:10 PM
I am looking at another problem ATM.
I am trying to have anything OBD2 hooked up to my Monster 1100 EVO, and everything I tried seems to fall flat.
The FIAT 3PIN (in my bike, there are actually two lead cables, not three) do not show any activity, both when using the KKL 409 cable and when using one of the ELM327 based ones.
I am using the FIAT 3PIN to OBD2 adapter with the two extra GND,+12V cables.
First thought, cables are junk (fine Made in China crapware).
The ELM327 talks to me using minicom on Linux, so at least the serial USB part of the circuit is fine.
But no matter how I tried (trying any kind of ELM327 protocol/initialization), the other side seemed dead.
I then remembered that my Camaro 2SS has an OBD2 port, so I plugged the ELM327 cable there, and I am indeed able to see traffic.
So cables should be fine IMHO.
A little bit of Google Fu revealed that the port where I plugged the FIAT 3PIN adapter under the seat, is not even supposed to be there.
I do not have the service manual for my 1100 EVO, but I have been told a recent 696 one is pretty similar from an electrical POV.
Here it is:

http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/9421/m696schemaelettrico.pdf (http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/9421/m696schemaelettrico.pdf)

There is no mention of such port, and the way the 696 service manual talks about it, it seems that both DDA and DDS need to be plugged into the DDA port.
After a little bit of digging in Italian forums, I have found that the DDA adapter for 696/1100 EVO (at least) are FCI brand, with these codes:

Brand: FCI
Connector: 673-7789
Pin: 673-7868

(http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/7097/p1000733iw.jpg)

Even though if the connector looks like to be a Tyco, no one seems to have been able to find the matching part, and the FCI has been reported to be matching.
Looking at the wiring diagram above, these are the connections from the DDA port to the power/ECU (looking at connector from front, latch on the upper side, left to right):

1) +12V
2) Ground
3) ECU B1 pin / CAN Hi
4) ECU C1 pin / CAN Lo

And this is the M3C ECU connector pin out as coming off the service manual:

(http://img269.imageshack.us/img269/7642/m69609m33005615.jpg)

(http://img.auctiva.com/imgdata/7/9/1/8/2/8/webimg/541532582_o.jpg)

Would be nice to know what these B1 and C1 pins map into the ECU, but looking at this sheet, it looks like these are CAN signals:

http://www.freescale.com/webapp/sps/site/taxonomy.jsp?code=S12S12X (http://www.freescale.com/webapp/sps/site/taxonomy.jsp?code=S12S12X)

So my next step is to try to get an FCI connector, and hook the pin #3 and #4 to my ELM327 to see if it sees anything.
Having an oscilloscope would help, but I do not have one (maybe it is time to buy one  [roll] ).



Title: Re: Ducati ECU Tuning Resources
Post by: HotIce on January 01, 2012, 03:42:00 PM
So right now I am most interested in the last generation, IAW5AM.

It looks like from tools (DucatiDiag, TuneECU, TuneBoy, Rexx ECU)
reading and writing the flash can be done via OBD commands.

I am very curious if anyone knows how these guys (especially the free tools) figured out what OBD PIDs and formats to use for various things.

From what I can tell from DucatiDiag, the MM IAW uses a proprietary mode 21 for most of the behavior.
So besides just trying every number you can and trying to reverse engineer things, I am hoping there is something quicker.  
The Magneti Marelli should be easy, as they have been hacked by some time.
Ducati Diag already has all the bits figured out.


Title: Re: Ducati ECU Tuning Resources
Post by: HotIce on January 01, 2012, 03:43:58 PM
I have burned the stock bin to another chip, re-read that new chip to the computer, and then compared it against the original bin file and there were no conflicts. That's telling me no checksum. Again, this is for my 10+ year old ECU and the newer ones may be (and probably are) different.
Did you reboot your ECU (not in boot mode, but in operational mode - that is, attached to a bike)?
Did the bike work after the new image upload?
ECU might not fail the upload, but when the ECU boots up, it might puke if check-sum is not matching.


Title: Re: Ducati ECU Tuning Resources
Post by: accludetuner on January 01, 2012, 03:49:52 PM
 [bang]I'll verify but I'm almost positive there's no checksum on mine.


This is starting to get more interest. I was trying to wait until I had DucTune filled with good content before I make it live, but perhaps I'll finish up the site functionality stuff and leave it be for now. You'd be more likely to get specific details and answers on a site designed specifically for technical ECU stuff.

I'll work on getting the site live soon but I may migrate to another server first.


Title: Re: Ducati ECU Tuning Resources
Post by: nicholasv on January 02, 2012, 11:46:13 AM
The Magneti Marelli should be easy, as they have been hacked by some time.
Ducati Diag already has all the bits figured out.


That works, and JP has done a great deal of work.  However he charges money to use the writer to flash new Maps.  I can't fault him for asking for money.  I can't help but wonder though if things would move faster (like with newer ECU's) if people shared their experiences with other ECU's.  (In the same way that HotIce was sharing his experience with car ECU's)

I think it would be nice to allow anyone to use an android of iphone app to reset the TPS and monitor their ECU.  Writing an app to do that is not that hard, *if* you are famliar with the Ducati specific use of ISO9141 (for example).


Title: Re: Ducati ECU Tuning Resources
Post by: HotIce on January 02, 2012, 12:19:14 PM
The TPS AFAIK is auto-reset on the Siemens M3C, and clearing the trouble-codes should be as simple as issuing a 0x04,0x00 on the bus. Which is OBD2 standard.
It is when you get into the internals of the ECU update, that you fall into the undefined (by the standard) territory.
Even if KWP2K/ISO14230 define data transfer protocol messages, there are a bunch of addresses and IDs, which are left by the standard as manufacturer specific.
Which means that you either have a Synerject/Ducati M3C spec (easy path, not likely), or you have a tool which is already able to do that, and you sniff and reverse engineer the traffic.


Title: Re: Ducati ECU Tuning Resources
Post by: HotIce on January 03, 2012, 05:30:37 PM
BTW, does anyone have an existing (as in, vanilla, unmodified) firmware binary file for the M3C ECU (696, 1100EVO, doesn't matter)?


Title: Re: Ducati ECU Tuning Resources
Post by: HotIce on January 03, 2012, 06:21:34 PM
GCC, Binutils (which has objdump, which is the disassembler - unfortunately IDA Pro does not have an S12X front end) for S12X:

https://github.com/seank/FreeScale-s12x-gcc (https://github.com/seank/FreeScale-s12x-gcc)
http://www.msextra.com/tools/ (http://www.msextra.com/tools/)

Freescale CW and related tools (eval versions available):

http://www.freescale.com/webapp/sps/site/prod_summary.jsp?code=CW-HCS12X# (http://www.freescale.com/webapp/sps/site/prod_summary.jsp?code=CW-HCS12X#)



Title: Re: Ducati ECU Tuning Resources
Post by: HotIce on January 16, 2012, 06:54:56 PM
There is a parallel thread on the Ducati Diag web site, with similar scope.
These information come form the Diurdac user on the DucatiDiag forum:

http://ducatidiag.xooit.com/t186-Siemens---Continental-ECU.htm (http://ducatidiag.xooit.com/t186-Siemens---Continental-ECU.htm)

(http://img269.imageshack.us/img269/301/ducatimoster696fiedsch3.jpg)

(http://img73.xooimage.com/files/f/c/b/conector-3098d19.jpg)



Title: Re: Ducati ECU Tuning Resources
Post by: HotIce on January 17, 2012, 07:55:20 AM
According to the information which came up in the DucatiDiag forum, it seems this is the pinout of the DDA connector:

1) +12V
2) Ground
3) CAN Hi / ECU B1 Pin
4) CAN Lo / ECU C1 Pin



Title: Re: Ducati ECU Tuning Resources
Post by: HotIce on January 19, 2012, 07:56:48 AM
Is there anyone which by any chance has a picture of the circuit board of the M3C ECU?
Or that has a fried/bricked one which can crack open to show the internals?


Title: Re: Ducati ECU Tuning Resources
Post by: HotIce on January 21, 2012, 06:59:32 PM
Here it is the ECU pinout and connector information (thanks to chrisw member in DucatiDiag forum):

(http://img831.imageshack.us/img831/9684/ecupinout.png)


This is the connector:

http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Molex/98650-2002?qs=xc6tm2qnjABzyWASYfRASdrW2w9wbBWI (http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Molex/98650-2002?qs=xc6tm2qnjABzyWASYfRASdrW2w9wbBWI)

Mouser also lists the DDA connector in their web site, but it seems not stocked, and with 16 weeks lead time (which is same as they do not have it  :-\ ):

http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/FCI/211PL042S0011/?qs=HumNWfwekiGi%2fm%252b6TKSg%2fw%3d%3d (http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/FCI/211PL042S0011/?qs=HumNWfwekiGi%2fm%252b6TKSg%2fw%3d%3d)



Title: Re: Ducati ECU Tuning Resources
Post by: HotIce on January 25, 2012, 07:39:54 AM
Is there anyone which by any chance has a picture of the circuit board of the M3C ECU?
Or that has a fried/bricked one which can crack open to show the internals?
Diurdac on the DucatiDiag forum has crack opened a 696 M3C ECU:

(http://img67.xooimage.com/files/3/8/8/m3c_pcb-30e70c3.jpg)


And FreeScale CPU manual:

http://cache.freescale.com/files/microcontrollers/doc/ref_manual/MC9S12XS256RMV1.pdf (http://cache.freescale.com/files/microcontrollers/doc/ref_manual/MC9S12XS256RMV1.pdf)



Title: Re: Ducati ECU Tuning Resources
Post by: HotIce on February 01, 2012, 04:29:34 PM
An update on this. On the DucatiDiag Forum, Diurdac has plugged an oscilloscope  to the CAN Bus lines coming off the DDA port, and it seems it is a 500Kbps CAN Bus protocol.
Which means that IMO, with proper cable, it should be possible to plug a $20 ELM327 OBD2 tool to it, and reset the service light (plus look at the error codes, and other information published on the OBD2 layer).


Title: Re: Ducati ECU Tuning Resources
Post by: HotIce on March 11, 2012, 10:42:07 PM
There are a few more things happening here:

http://ducatidiag.xooit.com/t186-Siemens---Continental-ECU.htm?start=345#p9870 (http://ducatidiag.xooit.com/t186-Siemens---Continental-ECU.htm?start=345#p9870)

I was able, via an Arduino Uno plus a CAN bus shield, and custom software (which I will make available for everyone), to get CAN frames out of the DDA port.



Title: Re: Ducati ECU Tuning Resources
Post by: Christian on March 12, 2012, 12:00:54 PM
Cool stuff! I am definitely tracking this thread and just wanted to chime in and say thanks for posting updates. I dig this stuff. :)


Title: Re: Ducati ECU Tuning Resources
Post by: HotIce on March 12, 2012, 06:23:31 PM
There are a few more things happening here:

http://ducatidiag.xooit.com/t186-Siemens---Continental-ECU.htm?start=345#p9870 (http://ducatidiag.xooit.com/t186-Siemens---Continental-ECU.htm?start=345#p9870)

I was able, via an Arduino Uno plus a CAN bus shield, and custom software (which I will make available for everyone), to get CAN frames out of the DDA port.
Here's the sketch code I used to poke the Ducati CAN bus via Arduino Uno plus CAN bus shield:

https://github.com/davidel/ArduinoAVR (https://github.com/davidel/ArduinoAVR)



Title: Re: Ducati ECU Tuning Resources
Post by: krista on May 03, 2013, 03:34:07 AM
Oh wow! subscribed


Title: Re: Ducati ECU Tuning Resources
Post by: accludetuner on May 03, 2013, 03:39:14 AM
Working on a device driver for my Moates Ostrich to allow RTP with the SBK ECUs. I've been slacking but hopefully I'll have a significant update soon.


Title: Re: Ducati ECU Tuning Resources
Post by: ungeheuer on May 03, 2013, 03:50:09 AM
 [clap]

I think  :-\

 ;D


Title: Re: Ducati ECU Tuning Resources
Post by: chipripper on May 05, 2013, 09:59:43 AM
Thanks for sharing your code HotIce. I have been daydreaming about porting torque for android to my monster using arduino as a compatibility layer. My initial attempts involved my VDST cable and a bluetooth serial adapter. This worked for VDST on win mobile but not for torque. I would love to get an android dash/hud going that could replace my stock gauges.

John


Title: Re: Ducati ECU Tuning Resources
Post by: Bill in OKC on May 06, 2013, 10:36:37 AM
I've been reading good things about Rexxer:
http://www.rexxer.eu/e_index.cfm (http://www.rexxer.eu/e_index.cfm)


Title: Re: Ducati ECU Tuning Resources
Post by: Yogi on May 08, 2013, 05:25:59 AM
An update on this. On the DucatiDiag Forum, Diurdac has plugged an oscilloscope  to the CAN Bus lines coming off the DDA port, and it seems it is a 500Kbps CAN Bus protocol.
Which means that IMO, with proper cable, it should be possible to plug a $20 ELM327 OBD2 tool to it, and reset the service light (plus look at the error codes, and other information published on the OBD2 layer).


Yep I can confirm this as I have done this on my 1100S using Bluetooth Elm327 (Chinese) a lead supplied by Chris (Ducatidiag) and some beta software from the same.


Title: Re: Ducati ECU Tuning Resources
Post by: ungeheuer on May 08, 2013, 12:51:35 PM
I've been reading good things about Rexxer:
http://www.rexxer.eu/e_index.cfm (http://www.rexxer.eu/e_index.cfm)
There are a couple of in depth Rexxer threads around here already.....  

this here is some impressive looking owner development....

Yep I can confirm this as I have done this on my 1100S using Bluetooth Elm327 (Chinese) a lead supplied by Chris (Ducatidiag) and some beta software from the same.
... and its getting mighty interesting indeed  [thumbsup]

 [popcorn]


Title: Re: Ducati ECU Tuning Resources
Post by: Bill in OKC on May 08, 2013, 01:55:47 PM
There are a couple of in depth Rexxer threads around here already.....  

I figured there must have been something before I posted that but a search didn't find them.  I've been reading about them on some Guzzi discussions


Title: Re: Ducati ECU Tuning Resources
Post by: ungeheuer on May 08, 2013, 05:57:39 PM
I figured there must have been something before I posted that but a search didn't find them.  I've been reading about them on some Guzzi discussions

Its a saga from go to whoa but here ya go....
http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=43335.0 (http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=43335.0)

And another...
http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=41934.0 (http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=41934.0)



Title: Re: Ducati ECU Tuning Resources
Post by: JackBug on August 28, 2013, 05:53:32 PM
Yep I can confirm this as I have done this on my 1100S using Bluetooth Elm327 (Chinese) a lead supplied by Chris (Ducatidiag) and some beta software from the same.

Yogi,
 I had been relying on a version DucatiDiag to be released that is capable of working on the Seimens ECU that is fitted to the 696/796/1100 Monster range but with JP ceasing further development of DucatiDiag my hopes have been dashed.

Any chance of obtaining a copy of the beta software that you have used?

Regards,
John


Title: Re: Ducati ECU Tuning Resources
Post by: Atom1974 on October 30, 2014, 06:32:56 AM
What software r u using to connect and make checks?
Tks

Federico


Title: Re: Ducati ECU Tuning Resources
Post by: Duc796canada on December 28, 2014, 07:41:36 PM
So, Im under the impression that the 2009+ Monsters can't use the Scantwin app due to connection issues? Has anyone been able to get a 4 pin connector and if so, will the app work? Thanks.


Title: Re: Ducati ECU Tuning Resources
Post by: krista on January 26, 2015, 09:01:19 PM
I would love to get an android dash/hud going that could replace my stock gauges.

This is currently possible with bluetooth ELM obd dongle and a safe fiat->obd connector.

So, Im under the impression that the 2009+ Monsters can't use the Scantwin app due to connection issues? Has anyone been able to get a 4 pin connector and if so, will the app work? Thanks.

Siemens ecu has CANBUS data lines (& protocol), whereas marelli ecus have historically used K-Line protocol.

...

Work is afoot.


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