Ducati Monster Forum

I'm thinking about having my local shop install some higher compression, larger pistons this winter.  They would also do some minor porting and valve seat work.  They say it will produce 10-15 hp more on top of where my bike is now & won't lose any of its current good nature (easy starting & good idle).  (Current bike is a M1000s with a Power Commander and termi pipes).  I really like my bike and this might be a bike that I hold on to for the long haul, but it would be nice to have a little more power at times.  The suspension is well sorted already and I love the look of the bike so I'm not looking to upgrade to the newer style yet.  

My question is why don't more people do this?  I've only seen 1 or two bikes with a 1078cc big bore kit on this forum over the years.  Upgrading to larger pistons and better flowing heads is so common in the HD world.  

My guess would be cost and/or they don't feel the need?

How will it effect reliability. Harley motors are pretty stout and put out less power than ours, they can take some hop-ups. Personally, if I had been after big power I would have looked at something else.

One of my customers has a 1078 M1000, with a light flywheel.

Very perky!  :o

How much is that going to run you?

Cuz it's not worth the money when you can buy the same model bike (same frame and largely the same look) with a liquid cooled beast of an engine.  For example, my not-remotely-stock M1000SS is pretty hopped up (your whole list plus more but w/o a big bore kit), but my housemate's '04 S4r with just an exhaust is faster.

I find it surprising that so few people do much internal engine work in the monster line.  You don't often hear people saying to just buy a bigger bike when some one asks about the 855 kits on the 748's.  If your just after the most amount of power you can get, a 2 valve bike isn't the best starting point, hell a ducati isn't the best starting point.  Looking at prices if you do your own disassembly/reassembly you can get the pistons and overbore for under $1K.  If you ultamatley want a 4 valve monster your better off putting that money towards it, but if you looking to keep your bike and just get more out of it go for big bore kit.  Just be sure to post before/after dyno charts  [thumbsup].

There are a lot of the older big Monsters - 900's with kits like this. There's the 944 kit which was...dare I say "common", and the 966 kit which was also available. Apparently, for the mild modders, perhaps faint of heart, there was a 924 kit as well.

So back in the day, you could make your 904 go up to a 924, 944, or 966 (964).
Markus is a member here who has a 966. I haven't really run across anybody who told me "don't do the 944 kit, reliability will suffer" - only "you are throwing money at the bike in the name of power, and you won't get much return on investment".

For me, I plan on doing the big bore kit on this bike and on another 900, just because its out there to do, and I don't find it will be a big problem. There's more heat generated, and with new (and also high compression) pistons, its a good idea to get the crank balanced (and why not knife edged and polished while we are at it). Might also consider some performance cams while you are doing some motor work - VeeTwo makes some and it would be a great time to drop 'em in if you are having the heads off for work.

At the same time, the big bore kit on a M1000 will likely make less power than the new M1100 motor, so you could just want to get one of those out of another bike that goes up for parting-out.

My last thought might be, with the expense paid for the engine work, it might be more cost effective to get an overall improvement (rather than simply an acceleration improvement from the motor) by getting a set of really lightweight wheels. Forged Magnesium or Carbon Fiber (BST, Dymag, etc).

What makes you think this?

Doesn't the M1100 use an updated head design over the 1000? (Displacements would be the same, yes?)

Updated head design I am thinking about be in here: http://www.ducatinewstoday.com/2009/11/ducati-2010-new-models-what-we-know/ (http://www.ducatinewstoday.com/2009/11/ducati-2010-new-models-what-we-know/) (at the bottom)

There's more than 100hp to be had out of a built DS motor that's for sure.

I'm guessing they revised port angle slightly and maybe put a slightly hotter cam in it.

Don't know as this is the first I've heard but I don't think they've fundamentally redesigned the head.

Has anybody heard about the Pistal DS 1123 pistons for the 1000DS engine? I wonder what the difference is between these pistons and the 1078 pistons other than the size.  Are there any additional complications or expenses?
http://www.ducshop.com/product_view.php?cat=6&pid=303 (http://www.ducshop.com/product_view.php?cat=6&pid=303)

You could call 'em - Ducshop kicks ass. I've talked with Kai in the past.

I'd ask them about how thin the 'liner' spigot will be with a 100mm bore, specifically the durability in that.

DS1k is a 94mm bore, making a 992cc.
98mm bore gives 1079cc.
100mm bore gives 1123cc.

That's 6mm up on the bore, so 3mm thinner on the spigot.

My customer with the 1079 DS motor asked me about the 100mm pistons.
I said that, IMO, the spigot would be too thin.

But I've not built and run an 1123 motor.
Perhaps it's OK for a street motor.

Perhaps they combine the 1123 pistons with the new 100mm cylinders that are also listed on their site.  This is purely speculation.  I haven't looked into this yet.
http://www.ducshop.com/product_view.php?cat=6&pid=280 (http://www.ducshop.com/product_view.php?cat=6&pid=280)
(http://www.ducshop.com/images/Cylinder_400.jpg)

Call, Lorin is who did the work on kopfjager's bike.

Thats a water cooled cylinder so I would not think they would use that.  There is a nemesis map for 1200cc 2 valve ds motors, so some one is getting some more displacement out of them.

There's a NCR 1200cc kit but it requires boring the cases to receive the new barrels.

One guy over at http://www.ducati.ms/forums/showthread.php?t=73437 (http://www.ducati.ms/forums/showthread.php?t=73437) has built a 1123cc SC.
It has steel sleeves.

Stew - is this based on what MBP has done with 900 heads, or something else?  Brad Black noted that the DS heads are 'superior' wrt flow, etc...which I think makes the biggest difference between the 900 and the 1000.  Is the DS head that amenable to flow improvements, plus hi-comp pistons and the DP racing cams?

Also, I would think the biggest deterrent to increasing compression ratio (on a street bike) is being pushed into higher-octane gas...

Compression (with regard to the dome of the piston and the size of the chamber) is tempered by the more agressive camshafts.  

Compression starts happening (OK...it's a little more complicated than this, but here's a overview) when the intake valve closes.  More aggressive camshafts hold the intake valve open longer so the piston has travelled up the bore a good bit before the valve closes and since compression is a ratio, that ratio starts when the valve closes the 'hotter' pistons are needed to keep a dynamic compression that's more useable.

12:1 pistons don't mean that the final dynamic (or running compression) ratio is actually 12:1 but may be as low as 9.5:1  with an agressive camshaft.  But your comment with regard to compression and octane is relevant and correct.  Also, more dynamic compression = more heat so the oil cooler would need to be upgraded as well.

The 100+HP quote I made is based not off of what MBP has done w/built 900 motors (966cc's BTW) but rather from what's posted and written about on the Ducati-Kaemna website and what I've seen when looking at a DS head and a 900 head.  The 900 head is just piss-poor with regard to flow as compared to a DEAD-STOCK DS1000 head nevermind the porting and larger valves.

Personally, I have a project in my shop ('07 S2R1000) that's going 1078cc w/the DP HM cams, head porting/polishing, and oversized valves too.  I fully expect 100+hp out of this motor when all the tuning and such is done.

You can go 1200cc big bore kit (http://www.desmoworks.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=524) from NCR (1194 actually). Comes with new cylinders.

(http://www.desmoworks.com/images/NCR.BIGBOR102.jpg)

You'll need some rods (how about ti) (http://www.desmoworks.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=518) that can take the power though.

(http://www.desmoworks.com/images/085015620331A.jpg)

And best to go with a billet crank (http://www.desmoworks.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=520) of F1 quality (stroked to attain the displacement).

(http://www.desmoworks.com/images/NCR.306.73.02.jpg)

Then there's cams, ti valves, head work, Nemesis ECU with custom tune, etc...

All for the low, low price of $11tyB!  [laugh]

That's gorgeous hardware there, that would be a really fun motor.  [beer]

Makes a person want to say something like... "GOOD GOOGELY MOOGELY"

That crank goes for something like 4k alone.

I would chuck babies into traffic all day long to put that on my bike.

The process has begun.  My bike is at the shop and pistons are on their way.  I'm going with the 1123 kit with Pistal pistons.  There will be dyno testing & tuning before and after so we can see the results. 

Which shop? This sounds awesome.

DucPond in Winchester, VA. 

My bike is in the shop with the heads and cylinders pulled off.  Cylinders have been sent for boring & replating.  My clutch basket was beat up, so I'll need a new one.  Here is what the bike looks like now.  They dyno tested it before taking it apart.  They said it had a high of 86hp.
(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm21/JonTravisKing/Ducati%202005%20Monster%)
(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm21/JonTravisKing/Ducati%202005%20Monster%201000s/20100109_9_1.jpg?t=1263090119)
(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm21/JonTravisKing/Ducati%202005%20Monster%201000s/20100109_9_2.jpg?t=1263090240)

 [popcorn]

Hell Yeah!
 [popcorn]

You guys.

Looking forward to seeing the final products. And the final dyno numbers.

What will the bore/stroke dimensions be?

Imagine the torque! No need for a desmoquattro, certainly not as a street bike.

Well done.

 

 [thumbsup]


Any headwork, how to mod ign/fuel?

<bookmarked> [popcorn]

The stroke will be unchanged.  I'm pretty sure the stock stroke is 71.5mm.  The bore will be changed from a stock 94mm to 100mm.  Here is what the pistons look like. 
http://www.ducshop.com/product_view.php?cat=6&pid=303 (http://www.ducshop.com/product_view.php?cat=6&pid=303)

There will be head porting and a multi angle valve job.  The ignition and fuel will be taken care of by the stock fuel injection along with the Power Commander III that is already on the bike.  Donnie Unger will Dyno tune the bike and dial it in. 

very nice, can't wait to see the results. 

 [popcorn]
What is the eta?

I'm not sure exactly.  I'd imagine it will be a couple of weeks.  Just got word today that my cylinders were being bored.  So things are moving along.   [thumbsup]

You know I check this thread every day..  [popcorn]

As do I [coffee]

I know it will be done by spring, probably a lot earlier.  I'll post as soon as anything happens.  Try checking once a week. 

 [bacon] [popcorn]

we'll be waiting ;)

Head Work with minor porting and polishing is now done.  Four angle valve job has been done.  There is not enough resolution in this picture, but you can see all four angles up close.  The finished head is on the right.  The valves now sit up higher on their valve seat. 
(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm21/JonTravisKing/Ducati%202005%20Monster%201000s/20100123_15.jpg?t=1264268186)
(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm21/JonTravisKing/Ducati%202005%20Monster%201000s/20100123_17.jpg?t=1264287620)

Not a very good picture, but you can see everything is shiny & smooth.
(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm21/JonTravisKing/Ducati%202005%20Monster%201000s/20100123_16.jpg?t=1264287518)

In this picture you can see the intake tract.  It is fairly straight for good flow.  (I got to see a bare Desmoquattro head while at the shop.  Now those intake pathways were arrow straight.  That is a big part of the reason they are able to make so much more horsepower.) 
(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm21/JonTravisKing/Ducati%202005%20Monster%201000s/20100123_18.jpg?t=1264287647)

The exhaust exit is fairly straight too.
(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm21/JonTravisKing/Ducati%202005%20Monster%201000s/20100123_19.jpg?t=1264287843)

Front and rear heads sitting side by side.
(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm21/JonTravisKing/Ducati%202005%20Monster%201000s/20100123_20.jpg?t=1264287934)
(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm21/JonTravisKing/Ducati%202005%20Monster%201000s/20100123_21.jpg?t=1264287999)

I'm pretty sure we will get the bored and re-plated cylinders back fairly soon.  Probably sometime this week.  Pistal pistons are on their way from Italy right now.  Hopefully they will arrive soon too. 

They look fantastic. I'd like to see some hi-res if you got 'em.

further questions:

a) what are you going to run for final compression ratio?
b) was the cc's (volume) of the chamber measured out of curiosity?
c) camshaft used?
d) with the porting/polishing -- did you open up the intake port or exhaust port to larger OD -- or just polished?
e) you using the factory airbox or going pods/aftermarket filters?
f) factory valves and sizing?

Founds some other 1000DS motor mods on Speedzilla, here: http://www.speedzilla.com/forums/ducati-supersport/57694-graphs-some-boring-stuff-2v.html (http://www.speedzilla.com/forums/ducati-supersport/57694-graphs-some-boring-stuff-2v.html)

104.13 hp, 100.44 Nm (74.08ftlb).

Other bike featured on same page:


98.50 hp, 72.58

I'll try to answer your questions.
a) I don't know what the exact final compression ratio will be.  I'll have to ask.  I know the 1123 piston kits come in 11:1, 11.5:1, and 12:1.  I asked Donnie to make sure I have no problems starting.
b) I'll have to ask about the cc's of chamber.
c) Camshafts are still stock for now.
d) He told me everything he did with the heads.  I believe he said that very little was removed from the intake and exhaust ports.  A little straightening and then smoothed and polished the rough stuff.
e) K&N pod filters is what is already on the bike.
f) factory valves

I thought a bit of turbulence on the intake was a good thing, and smooth polished exhaust ports were the ticket?

True, but it has a greater effect the longer the intake tract is and gets more important with carburetors where the fuel mixture enters the air-stream further from the valve.  With an EFI engine where the injector is pointing (more or less) right at the valve, the necessity for turbulence in the air stream gets less.

It is, you are on the right track.  Polishing intake ports can be done for pretty pictures though.... [bang]

 [clap]

Air/oil cooled, 2 valve, SOHC and making the same power as a 4 valve, water cooled, DOHC VTR 1000.

Wasn't it Taglioni who said that a Desmo two valver, properly ported, could make the same power as a 4 valver with valve-spring actuation? (Quote from Alan Cathcart's book 'Ducati Motorcycles')

One day, years from now, when my M900's motor is all worn out, I'm gonna transplant a 1000 DS motor with Ignitek ignition, porting, high comp, Vee Two cams and 41mm FCR's. You know, like the Chevy small block being replaced with the big block.

 [popcorn]

Modern injectors are really good at atomizing the fuel spray whereas carbs do a poor job.  Turbulence in the intake of a modern FI engine is really not necessary.

Stew -- what's happening with the 1000DS project you mentioned in November?

Motor is apart.  1078cc hi-comp pistons and the barrels are out for bore/plate right now.  Carrillo rods are in-bound.  Vee-Two cams are on order.  Cylinder heads are out getting massaged and opened up for 47mm intakes and 41mm exhaust valves.  We'll be north of 100hp EASILY with this combo of parts...  This is the bike that's getting the AL sub-frame BTW...  [evil] [evil] [evil] [evil] [evil] [evil] [evil] [evil]

God, all this fun talk of breaking open the engine is making me think my project isn't awesome enough

Welcome to the addiction.  [slaps vein]

I said think damn you.

The insides of motorcycle engines are still a scary place to me.  Chevy small block, no problem.  All the stuff inside a moto engine... ehhh

I give ya 3 months.  [evil]

A few weeks ago when I was at my Ducati shop where they are working on my bike.  They had dyno'ed my bike before starting the work.  They were excited to tell me my bike looked very healthy on the Dyno.  It had nice curves and a max of 86hp.  They thought they might be able to get a little more because the valves had been set way to tight.  They were also impressed because they had been working on a 944 2V race bike that had lots of specialized NCR parts & tons of money in it that made about the same hp as my stock 1000DS with Termi mufflers, pods & a PCIII. 

Anyways, what stuck with me is one of the guys said, "can you imagine what that bike could do with a set of FCR's?".  Up until then I had never considered carbs for my fuel injection bike.  Chris from CA-Cycleworks mentioned yesterday that a stock DS1000 can put out 100hp.  So, I'm considering the FCR's as the next project for my bike.   

Wow. You know that I had not thought of switching a FI bike back to a carbie.

For you, what would be the benefits of such a conversion?

even bigger wheelies. more fuel dumped in.

A bike like that....  needs some high performance camshafts!  [thumbsup]





(just pullin' your chain Travman...)  ;)

Would you need to install a larger oil cooler? probably a dumb question for those of you that are in the know.

Not sure if it needs a bigger oil cooler.  I know pretty well what temperatures it ran at before the operation.  I'll consider another or bigger oil cooler if I see any changes. 

I have always been lost at were the power comes from on the 100 hp carbed 1000ds.  The 45mm throttle bodies should have more airflow than the 41mm FCR's, are the factory injectors being maxed out.  I know they are often installed with short intakes, how much do the shorter intake runners contribute to 100 hp?  Or is it just the ease of tune and a 1000ds with a nemesis should make similar power?  On these conversionsis the ecu still used for ignition control, or is that swaped over for carb parts also?

I'm not sure how carbs could be better than efi if your fuel air ratio is correct. Fuel injection mixes better, responds faster and is easier to tune. I've never heard of any race bike being converted to carbs. I've heard of plenty being converted to efi. I could see bigger throttle bodies perhaps.

what? lots of race bikes run carbs.

AMA SuperBikes, World SuperBikes or MotoGP bikes?

What year did Ducati last run carbs on their SuperBikes?

You are talking about the big top-level racing with colossal budgets and lots of technology. Amateur racers use carbs all the time.

There are many privateers filling the AMA grids. I guess I assumed they left the EFI in place. I'm willing to read up on it if anyone has some links to any amateur team sites showing Sportbikes built in the last decade being retrofitted with carbs. IDK seems counterproductive to me but I'm open to anything.  [thumbsup]

some of the guys back home ran 'sakis with carbs.

and also wore their ninja turtle outfits out to bars.  [laugh]

Great thread I can't wait till the results,

Coming from an auto background, carbs are good and built correctly put out incredible HP but FI today is soooo much better.  It would have to be a real good set of carbs to replace FI and this is considering the horrible open/closed loop system on some of our bikes.

DP ECU, Pwr Commander, larger injectors, bored throttle bodies, and a set of cams, that covers every benefit carbs should give, correct?

I left out the stack of dolla billz you would need vs. the carbs.

 You would need cams to get the most from carbs too.
Once you have a tunable ECU or DP ECU and Power Commander you never need to remove anything to change jets. Just plug in the PDA.

Sport 1000DS, Keihin FCR 41mm, MSD MC-4 ignition m Blaster coils, 50mm exhaust.
Standard cams, no 1100kit, HC pistons or porting:

(http://pwp.surfglobal.net/ducremus/10-30-07Dyno.jpg)

"Black Sheep" at ducati.ms.

The pistons are in, the top end is reassembled and the bike will soon be back with me.  I've heard the bike run and it does sound a little angrier with a little more bass and a little more snap.  I want to hear it outside of the shop and while riding it to really gauge the difference.

They are working on a few little things like painting the oil cooler black and rerouting the oil cooler lines so they don't cross the belt cover.  While the engine was being worked on, the clutch side cover was milled out.  Also, a new clutch basket and plates were necessary so a Barnett basket and plates were installed.  Here are the results.  I'm loving the look, but not sure what exactly I'm going to do with the pressure plate and springs.  I just having decided if I like any of the aftermarket plates.  Right now the stock plate (painted black) is on there. 
(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm21/JonTravisKing/Ducati%202005%20Monster%201000s/20100212_01.jpg?t=1266021374)
(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm21/JonTravisKing/Ducati%202005%20Monster%201000s/20100212_02.jpg?t=1266021496)
(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm21/JonTravisKing/Ducati%202005%20Monster%201000s/20100212_03.jpg?t=1266021531)
(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm21/JonTravisKing/Ducati%202005%20Monster%201000s/20100212_04.jpg?t=1266021565)

I really like the rider's view as I look down.
(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm21/JonTravisKing/Ducati%202005%20Monster%201000s/20100212_05.jpg?t=1266021594)

One more from the front.
(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm21/JonTravisKing/Ducati%202005%20Monster%201000s/20100212_06.jpg?t=1266021635)

Silver spring caps and leave the pressure plate.

The machining looks awesome with that cover  [thumbsup]
Nothing wrong with the stock plate if you don't like the aftermarket ones

You are right about the silver caps.  Here is a quick and dirty Paintshop pic of the current clutch setup with silver caps.  The silver caps definitely look better and provide a nice contrast to the all black pressure plate.
(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm21/JonTravisKing/Ducati%202005%20Monster%201000s/20100212_04_SilverCaps.jpg?t=1266028916)

Thanks, I saw this picture and knew the cutouts in the clutch cover would match the milled areas on the clutch side engine cover.
(http://i617.photobucket.com/albums/tt251/vizi-tec/DSCF1603.jpg)

BTW it's a MadDuc "Forza" cover
http://www.madduc.com/showproduct.aspx?productid=56&categoryid=15 (http://www.madduc.com/showproduct.aspx?productid=56&categoryid=15)

 [popcorn] Awesome. [clap]

Just found this thread and want to give it a bump.  How is the engine doing.  Are you going to do a break-in before you do the next dyno run? 

The engine is together and we are waiting on an oil line.  I had the oil cooler painted black and the oil line that crosses the belt cover is being routed under the engine for a cleaner appearance (similar to the Hypermotards).  So after that is done it will be time to break in the engine.  It is cold here and we just had a series of snow storms.  More snow to come soon.  Hopefully I can ride it before while the roads are clear of snow. 

Don't take unnecessary chances with that baby.  We are all looking forward to some awesome results on the dyno.   

There is tons of gravel on the roads so I'll keep it in a straight line whenever I give it any gas.  Even then I'll take it easy.  When I brought the bike to the shop about a month ago it was cold and I was breaking traction without really getting on it because of the the cold tires and road.  Thanks for the reminder.

Really be careful with the cold roads and cold tires. It'll be like riding on ice!

Will that hinder heat transfer?  Is that a common mod? I would like to do that myself

No

Kinda

Use the proper paint.  Eastwood makes a radiator paint, goes on in very thin coats to avoid clogging anything up.  I've used it on my rad and oil cooler.  No difference in cooling as indicated on the temp gauge (water gauge only).


Bike looks great Travman!  I love the vented cover too :)

So I took the bike out for a 30 mile ride yesterday.  We want to put lots of miles on it before we flog it on the Dyno.  It was a weird ride.  The roads are covered in gravel and sand.  There is still snow piled up on the sides of the road which is melting across the roads and causing a lot of wet areas.  It wasn't even 40 degrees and the tires felt cold the whole ride.  I hadn't ridden the bike in about a month or so, but it is quicker and the RPMs are a little lower and any given speed.  For example, at 75mph the RPMs might have been at 4500 before.  Now at 75mph the bike is at 4200 RPMs.  I told myself not to get on it coming out of the corners and basically only give it gas in the straights.  Also, I was trying to keep the revs down to 5 or 6K max.  Even with that the bike got loose as I was accelerating from around 4 to 5K at probably 40 to 50mph on a straight.  Even though I was going straight I crossed the middle of the lane which had gravel and that was enough to cause the bike to get loose and shake pretty hard.  I was fine because I was going straight, but that kinda of soured the ride because I knew I shouldn't be out there on those roads.  So after that I mostly just putted around.  I did notice how well it pulled from low RPM's.  Definitely pulled harder and smoother from very low. 

Travman, are you going to get any dyno runs in?
Theo, thanks for the response

Sure, there will be dyno runs to fine tune the bike and to see the hp/torque results.  I can't really sat when.  I just need to put a lot more miles on the bike before we ring its neck on the dyno. 

What break in method are you using?

I've seen many racebikes broken in on the dyno the day before the race.  [evil]

I basically just ride it.  I'm varying the RPM's, trying not to cruise for long periods of time at one speed (so I stay off the highway).  I accelerate, but don't go much over 6K RPMs. 

I've seen it too, but those bikes don't have to worry about the longevity of a street bike.  A race bike might be torn apart after just a few races.

Another 50 miles today in the cold.  I know it was cold because it was snowing (flurries).  The roads still suck, but I felt more comfortable out there riding today.  That is until my fingers went numb.  There was less gravel and less snow melt crossing the roads.  I rode the bike more like I usually do.  It is definitely stronger.  A couple of times I felt that super warp speed you get on sport bikes or the water cooled Monsters.  At one point I thought the clutch was slipping when I was getting on it, but it was just the rear wheel spinning.  [evil]

 [evil] [evil] [evil] [evil] [evil] [evil] [evil] [evil] [evil]

 [thumbsup]

Following this one closely....as it looks like a ds1k motor w/fcr's is in my future.  Didn't know I might be looking at 100whp without headwork/cams/bore.

Turbulence in the intake port isn't a bad thing at all.  For proof on why it works, look at some of the head porting pictures released on the top-level all motor Honda drag cars.  They are getting upwards of 350whp on a 2.0l motor, and the power is all in the head/cams. 

I'm unsure if I'll do the big-bore out of the box, or try and find a new cylinder/piston for the scuffed horizonal one....might be the same money to just have the cylinders replated and use the FBF pistons from what I've seen so far.....

 [thumbsup]

I'm glad Donnie found a DS1000 engine to "play with" over the winter!  We talked about him doing mine, but my [crappy] job situation interrupted that idea.   My 1000SS is making 87 hp with Donnie's custom race exhaust and a PCIII (on another local dyno; Ducpond's wasn't up last fall when I had the dynotuning done by Rick Beggs at RnR Cycles in Sterling) so I will be very interested to see what your engine does when you do get it to the dyno.

Regards,

Tim Morrow

Tim, Ducpond's dyno is down again.  They said it was something minor like a filter.  I'm in no rush to have my bike dyno'ed though.  The more miles I put on my bike the better before flogging it on the dyno.  So far I've only managed about 80 miles in the cold.  Good luck with the job situation.  Hopefully my experience with this 1123 kit will be worth it and inspire a few more people to upgrade their 1000 & 1100 DS engines. 

Forgive me for asking this. I've looked through the thread. How much is costing in the end?

$2,400

Pistal Pistons 1100 HC   $750.00
Cylinder Bore & Plate     $400.00
Head Work - Porting      $400.00
Multi Angle Valve Job     $125.00
Machine Clutch Cover    $85.00
Dyno Time                   $170.00
Labor 6 hours @$75      $450.00
 
Estimated total            $2380.00
(labor includes disassemble, cleaning, reassemble, setting squish, cam timing)

I think this includes a generous winter time discount on some of the labor.  I later added more stuff like new oil lines, engine painting, clutch basket, plates, and cover, but this is not included.

That seems damn reasonable to me. Nice work.

Weather was nice this weekend.  I took two short rides on Sunday.  Probably a total of 50 miles.  I'm starting the run the bike a little harder and I'm increasing my shift limit.  Trying to not go too far beyond 7K.  It's hard though.  It pulls harder through the lower RPMs so when I get to 7K I feel like I should let it pull for another couple thousand RPMs, but I shift at that point.  The bike is seriously quick.  At one point I saw 110.  I didn't realize I was in that range of speed because I was on a back road.  I'm pretty sure that was around 7K in 4th gear.  I'll have to double check that some time b/c it may have been 5th gear.  Either way there was plenty more RPM in that gear and at least one more (maybe two) to go.  I do have lowered gearing with both my front and rear sprockets.  Anyways, it feels faster and when riding in known locations I'm hitting higher speeds when I have time to look down at the speedo on the straights. 

BTW, my speedo is way to small to be readable at those kinds of speeds.  I've never had a problem with my analog speedo, but it is impossible to try to read those small numbers at high speeds.  My eyes just don't want to be off the road for the period of time it takes to find the speedo needle and read it.  Maybe the needle should be a brighter color instead of being white.

BTW, my speedo is way to small to be readable at those kinds of speeds.  I've never had a problem with my analog speedo, but it is impossible to try to read those small numbers at high speeds.  My eyes just don't want to be off the road for the period of time it takes to find the speedo needle and read it.  Maybe the needle should be a brighter color instead of being white.
[/quote]

Mod your speedo needle...different color (e.g. high vis/florescent). 

Has anyone here ever had their Ducati's crankshaft balancing and lightened? 

The rod bushing that holds the wrist pin for the upper cylinder of my bike is worn.  This causes a sound when the engine is running.  The sound can be heard at idle and throughout the range of RPM, but is especially noticeable in the 4-5K range.  This wasn't a problem before, but after the bigger pistons were installed the existing wear was enough for this sound to become more prominent.    Donnie took the top end apart and inspected his work to see if there was any problem with the work he had done.  Everything looked great and there was no wear.  It took a while to find the offending problem, but now we know.  I could ignore the sound and live with it for quite a while, but I'm not going to.  To replace this bushing the bottom end must come apart. 

I'm thinking of having the crankshaft balanced and lightened while it is apart.  Does anyone have experience with this?  Was it worth the extra expense?  Did it reduce engine vibration?  Were there any negative side effects? 

May as well get the NCR crank.  [moto]

A friend who blueprints engines is in favour of balancing/polishing cranks and rods. He only really lightens cranks on race engines. If I had to split the cases I would do it. A fastidious balancing job should make a significant improvement making for a sweet, smooth engine.

Lightened cranks sometimes lead people to put a heavy flywheel back on the bike to tame the power delivery. I would sooner play around with flywheel weights than lighten the crank on a street bike. I have tried three different flywheel weights on 2 valvers, and there was a big difference.

Thanks for showing the way with your engine work. Your bike must be awesome to ride.

I've had a couple customer's cranks balanced.
I'd say it's worth the money.

I wouldn't bother with lightening a crank unless you're racing with someone else's money.

Maybe someday, but for now I'm thinking about spending a couple hundred extra for balancing versus $12,000 for the NCR crank.  Once you put the $12K crank in you are going to have to spend $7K for the NCR rods, and I'm sure there is a lot more to go with that.  That's for racers with deep pockets, not for guys like me that spend their spare time riding.  It would be cool to have the extra cc's the NCR crank would provide.  It would probably be the only true 1200 cc air-cooled street Ducati in the world. 

Thanks for the advice Koko and Speeddog.  My mechanic is steering me in the same direction.  I'll probably end up having the crank balanced and not lighten the crank.  I hope it makes for a smooth running engine and adds to engine longevity. 

I'm planning to get this done on the project 900 this winter, and then split the cases on my M900 the following winter to have it done too. Pretty important for piston changes, but would be beneficial even in stock form for engine longevity.

I plan on using Fox Performance - he does lightening, balancing, SPS-style, and polishing.

a m, I knew you'd chime in since you've got your own project going on.  So you are going to go with the SPS-style crank.  Do you have any worries about lightening your crank?  What have you heard about affecting drive-ability?  Do you already have a lightened flywheel?   

As of right now I will definitely be having the crank balanced.  I may also have the crank knife edged and polished, but I'm not planning on having any serious weight removed. 

On my Monster 900, the flywheel has been replaced with a Nichols Flywheel. I have kept my original flywheel in case I wanted something in the middle from stock and Nichols, and can get it machined down by Fox while the crank is there too for medium weight.

The lightweight crank is supposed to significantly improve many things throughout the spectrum. I am planning on having the project's crank lightened, polished, and balanced for big pistons.

I think you'll enjoy this read: http://www.ducati.ms/forums/showthread.php?t=61585 (http://www.ducati.ms/forums/showthread.php?t=61585)
(Written by Ben Fox himself)

I'm also building a 900 big-bore, going for the 984..
you cant lighten the crank too much unless you have lighter pistons or conrods or it wont balance. I lightened mine a bit, but only because the pistons were a bit lighter. Not a hell of a lot came off the crank to get it to balance.
Dont know if its that beneficial to knife-edge and polish...  I didn't bother.

I didn't read the whole thread...

Some time ago, we got talked into selling a guy with a Sport Classic 1000 a set of individual FCRs. He was ditching the ecu and efi because he hated how his bike ran. He had a nemesis ecu running the ignition. The other mod to his bike was the small diameter Termi 2-1.

With a set of FCR41s and the same filters we put on Pongo, he got 99.6 hp.

So when folks with 900s call and want to "build up some power", I tell them about that and suggest that any mods made to a 900 engine are in the vein of reliability but not for power.

:) Chris

and fun! [laugh]

note, for those guys who are interested in the 1123 kit - we've got a full setup (core exchange) for taking the 1000DS to an 1123 with balanced crank, ported heads, etc, ready to go at the AMS shop in Alvarado. Jordan was telling me about it over beers on Monday. I thought I'd pass it on to you folks since I am without a DS motor.

FCR`s do rule... 8)

Very cool.  It makes sense for people like me that had some money in their pocket and wanted a little more out of their bike [evil]. 

I'm surprised they're including balancing the crank since there is a lot more labor involved at that point.  I'm having it done, but only because the bottom end was coming apart anyways.  So, did he tell you how much it is going to cost?  They should advertise it on their website.

Ha, we were just talking over beers - I'm at the Dallas shop while the engine work goes on over near Fort Worth at the other shop.

I'll get a completed list of what all is included and get it up on the website by next week. I started asking questions that received wide-eyed looks when I asked about a similar package for Streetfighters... (what can I say? I dream big.)

I've got to split the cases on my ds motor to make sure there isn't any FOD inside it....so I'm going with the "SPS" lighten job that Ben Fox does.  Big bore pistons, and maybe headwork + FCR's.  If thats not enough I'll put some cams in there and twist it up high....  [thumbsup]

How come you have to split the cases? FOD? How big on the pistons/capacity?

FOD= shit that aint suppose to be there, but it is.

Thanks He Man. [laugh]

A west coast racer went all out on his sport classic ... he had done everything to it. Pistons, cams, headwork, crank, fuel maps, blah blah. He bought FCRs and an Ignitech ignition box and went from 105 to 115 superflow hp. Which is like 130 dynojet hp! I was like:  :o  He said during races, it murdered everything else coming off turns.

that is awesome.


dear diary,

today i have a new crush.

love always,
a m

TAftonomous:  I *may* have some cams available for your DS engine.  PM me.

Oh, and on the FCR/DS front:  I've been contracted to finish an S2R1000 chopper here in town and because of the configuration of the engine/frame/tank...  there isn't enough room for anything else BUT FCR's on split single manifolds.  Not that a chopper *needs* that much power...but hey...should be fun!

I'm leaning towards the ignitech box for ignition though...  Guess I'll have to look more into the Nemesis unit b/c I didn't know they made one.  ;D

where are you going to get your short manifolds?

I've been looking at the Jako Motorsport (.de) adjustable units, but don't know anybody who can tell me they "for-sure" work, and their experiences there-with.

These:

(http://www.jako-motorsport.de/daten/eigenprodukte/image/ansaugstutzen01.jpg)

(http://www.jako-motorsport.de/daten/eigenprodukte/image/ansaugstutzen04.jpg)

(http://www.jako-motorsport.de/daten/eigenprodukte/image/ansaugstutzen02.jpg)

That bottom picture sure does look like a modern belt, doesn't it?

Yep.

And they've converted Dellortos to downdraft with that billet float bowl part.
Musta been fun to rejet that....

Manifolds?  I was just going to make them.

Guy who sent me the motor sent it without pistons or jugs on it, but with the rods just flapping around.  Since I'm sure they have hit the case walls, thats right where the rods will break at high RPM.

Since it needs rods, and who knows what has fallen into the case, might as well do it.  For $600 I can't complain.

I'm interested in the cams, depending on what they run.  Not sure I want to rev the piss outta this motor in the beginning.  Shoot me a PM with more info Stu.

Take a close look at the layshaft, it's ridiculously easy to bend it when the rods aren't restrained.

The 1000DS people I sent FCRs to use the original Ducati intake manifolds. The efi ones are already short. We run different spigots than come normal with the carbs.

chris - how's a brotha get hooked up with such things?

Basically, you send us an email saying what you want and we reply with a sales quote. I should just talk Sudco into building a proper kit for these...

So what has to be done with the fuel pump to convert an EFI bike to FCRs? I think the Monstrada could use some engine work this winter if it would work with the stock tank.  [evil]

not sure about the fuel pump, i was planning on just using a double output vacuum setup, but I hadn't gotten quite there just yet.

I'm assuming you lose the fuel pump...so I'm just wondering what has to be done instead??

Four options:  (FCR's like 3-3.5psi fuel pressure)

1) swap the 3-bar (45psi) pump for a 3.5psi and keep internal tank mounted
2) external mounted self-regulated 3.5psi electric fuel pump (I've done this @14 times the past 11 five years)
3) external mounted 3.5psi electric fuel pump with external fuel regulator and return line
4) One of Chris / CA-Cycleworks large volume vacuum pump kits - add an inline pressure regulator if you want (and vacuum operated fuel shutoff if you are concerned about fuel flow when the bike isn't running)

The question should be if you use the factory ignition system; retrofit early and convert to twin-DS-plug; MSD or other to fire the plugs and allow advance/retard. 

If gravity feed doesn't work, then get a T fitting so that the pressure output goes off the T  back to the return in the fuel tank. Then come off the T inline with the feed for the carbs. This is exactly how it is on the 900ss carb'd: automotive EFI pressure fuel pump into a Y fitting.

I'd REALLY like to keep it as clean as possible without anything external.  Been searching for a low-pressure intank pump without any luck.
  Something like this: (http://www.californiaspeedsupplies.com.au/images/Parts/F-40105.jpg)

 would work external, just need to figure a good way to hide it.

duct tape

Thanks Mark and Chris!  [thumbsup]

Doesn't seem like too big of a deal...something to consider for sure.  ;D

Those pumps used to be a quality low-cost unit that would last for a while.  Quality control has gone to sh*t with them lately and they're not the best anymore for what you're after.

I'd try a vacuum operated pump off something Japanese w/available rebuild kits (should that happen...)

The balancing sounds like a good idea to me, especially since you have new and presumably different weight pistons and have to split the cases anyway.  No FHE with balancing a Ducati motor though.

About the piston pin noise, I have a long and illustrious history of taking things apart to fix a noise, fixing what I was sure was the problem and then putting it all back together only to find the noise is still there.   Exactly how much clearance is there in the allegedly bad pin bushing?  The cylinders were bored and plated - what is the piston skirt to cylinder wall clearance?  Your engine builder should provide numbers, not just a statement that they're OK or not OK. 

Don't mean to sound like an armchair quarterback or be critical of your engine builder, it's just that noises can be very hard to diagnose.  I'm sure there are valid arguments to the contrary but IMHO he should have checked the clearance when first installing a new piston pin in a used rod bushing.

Bumping this up, looking for educated opinions on crank work.  I'm not going to name who, but someone was trashing Ben Fox's fork that happens to own a very well known shop in the midwest.  Surprised me when he told me they wouldn't even touch it if Fox did the crank, that he has murdered a set of heads in the past, blah blah blah. 

Now, there are always 3 sides to a story, but that shop pretty much took themselves out of the building a motor equation when they unleashed the verbal lashing that they did...

I was planning on having the crank done to "SPS" style/specs, getting a set of rods fitted, and then either doing it myself (never done before) or paying someone to assemble the bottom end. 

try Kaemna in Germany.

http://kaemna.de/cms_en/katalog.htm?&view=seite&seite=125 (http://kaemna.de/cms_en/katalog.htm?&view=seite&seite=125)

That probably wouldn't be cost effective

Ben Fox balanced and polished my crank.  He made it look real pretty.  Ben had ordered a set of Piston's for me too, they never came so I picked up a big bore kit from BCM and had them send Ben the Piston's.  Ben could of gotten pissed off about me no longer wanting the piston's he order but he understood I just couldn't wait forever for his piston's to arrive.  He went ahead and did the work using the BCM piston's without complaint.  I also purchase a set of corrillo rods from him.  I think the dude is okay. 

Ben Fox is balancing my crank right now.  Hopefully I'll see it soon.  My local dealer sends all their cranks that need balancing to him. 

I'll be posting as "AMS" from now one when talking work related stuff, but for this one,

I'll talk to Jeff and Jordan tomorrow about this. We're up to our eyeballs in Pistal pistons, do crank balancing, and head work regularly (primarily on the CMRA/WERA racers and on a particular AMA racer's...). On the newest motors (DS era and newer) this stuff is "quite straightforward, y'know" (said in Jeff's Kiwi accent). He hadn't put it up on the website because its usually word-of-mouth stuff, since a built-up 2V motor is "rarer the rockinghorse shit, mate" (again with the accent)

This is the stuff I'm quite interested in, but its quite true: not something you get the chance to do everyday.  My 2VSBK project hit the "stall" for a bit as I had run out of funds for some necessary bits and pieces, but when I stumbled upon the 95.92mm 2V pistons the other day (984cc builds), we got to talking quite a bit. Anyhow, my project is getting back on some sort of 'course' (Corse?), but will still be chugging about slowly due to budgetary constraints (I don't want to cheap-out on anything).

Good plan.

We don't want you to cheap out on anything

;)

I'm getting more familiar with the area. Turns out TPO is near by (College Station, any A&M fans out there?). If they make it, and its not unreasonably priced, its going on the bike. It'll be a bit of a rolling catalog for those guys, and (hopefully) a silly amount of fun for me.

Currently still looking at 964cc, track/race cams, etc. But thinking a little about the 984. According to Jeff, boring the cases is "like, no big deal, mate" - especially since everything is coming apart anyhoo

 [popcorn]

 [popcorn] [popcorn] [drink]

The engine is being put back together. Currently waiting on a seal for the jackshaft which had a leak.  Hopefully I'll be riding this bike soon and enjoying the autumn riding season.  [moto]
(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm21/JonTravisKing/Ducati%202005%20Monster%201000s/20100923_1000DS.jpg?t=1285290980)

 [drool] [popcorn]

I'm likin that motor stand adapter...

Home made?

It is not my engine stand adapter, but it definitely looks home-made.

I'm interested to see how all this turns out Trav.  I have been talking to Donnie about cracking open the motor in my SC to do some similar work...

We'll have to get together for a ride after my bike is back together. You can compare it to the 1000 in your SC to see if it something you want to do.  I live within jogging distance of DucPond. 

 [popcorn] [popcorn] [popcorn] [popcorn] [popcorn] [popcorn] [popcorn] [popcorn] [popcorn] [popcorn] [popcorn]

I'm back in the saddle again. Nothing much to report.  The bike feels very strong. I'm keeping the revs to a max of 5-6K RPMs. I'll put several hundred miles on it before we wring it's neck on the dyno.

 [popcorn]

did you go lightened/polished/knifed on the crank, or just balanced?

the dyno is a perfect place for running in

 [popcorn]

I'll be honest, I'm looking forward to comparing the performance of your motor to Ungehuer's.
I don't care that they have different mods, and are using different fuel on different continents on different dynos under different conditions.

Like the baddie in the Eastwood film said, "I've just got to know".

 [popcorn]

+1

Yeah, me too.  I've been following this thread for 12 pages and still nothing!  Common man,  break that thing in
and put it on the dyno.  You've built enough suspense, it is now time for the big dramatic finish. [bang] [bang]

 [popcorn]
Hey Travman

Like Pavlov's dog 
     [drool]

QUITE LOLLYGAGGING AROUND [roll]

If the pistons were matched to Nikasil coated cylinders (or similar) then all it needs is a good long ride of a tankfull of gas without ever turning it off at progerssivly higher RPM and throttle openings....

Get back home, pull the drain plug and inspect oil, refill....

PUT IT ON DYNO.......

 [popcorn]

Hey Travman

How's that bike going?

I just boxed my "motor" up to send to Donnie.

Going with a similar combo
-big bore
-headwork
-cams
-crank lightened
-rods

I decided instead of spending a ton of money with Ducati Kaemna on lightweight parts, it might be a good idea to have the bike running and driving first.  I can always cut off the back of the frame and make a cool tank later....

wait, aren't you in ATL?

yup. 

I know who is here

I'm choosing to send my motor to Donnie.

touche'

Since Christmas is coming would you promise to share the power outcome with us via a dyno reading when it's finished? Unlike some who are holding out on us. ;) :)

This would enrich the two-valve sub 100 hp lives of many of us. :D

Sorry Koko, I have nothing to show so far.  All I can say is someday it will be put on the Dyno. I'm pretty sure it will happen this winter.  I do have a few hundred miles on it now and I'm no longer worrying about where I shift.  It is very fast. I not sure how to quantify how much faster since it has been many months since this bike was at its stock displacement.  It's quick and brutal enough that it scares me a little on the smaller country roads.  I don't remember that before the work was done.

Theo's future 1123 should generate more max horsepower than mine. Mine still has the stock cams and rods. Also my crank was not significantly lightened.

I'm just green with envy Travman. :)

Only reason why I'm going with rods and crank work now is the condition (questionable) of the bottom end. 

I've been looking for a 1000$ or less DS motor for a few weeks now, and can't find anything.  Hence, it's time to just get the bottom end done and go from there.

I may "prove the concept" before dumping in money for the heads/cams.  The more I'm thinking about it, just getting it to run may be a challange on injection.  No one close that tunes the 5.9 ecu.  May try and start it on a stock ds1000 ecu and add a PC.

Subject change..... it's now got a 749R shock/linkage and triple tree on it :D

Theo, you need to get your 2V Superbike thread going again.  Let's see some pictures of your latest work (shock/linkage and triple tree).

 [popcorn]

I'm waiting on a new set of conical Sil Moto pipes before it is tuned on the Dyno.  So even though I ordered them before Christmas it may still take awhile. There were none in stock in the U.S.  So I'm waiting on a new run of production. I know you want to see some Dyno results. It will happen. Meanwhile the bike feels great especially in this cold weather and I've worn out a set of tires.

Love your work mate. [thumbsup]

Not a bunch to report at the moment.

Waiting on parts to rebuild my forks.  Once I can get the thing rolling again I'll fab up an exhaust. 

The monster is nearly "done", which will free up space/time.  The construction of the exhaust will be easy....if I can come up with a concept I like! 

Any updates?

my God this thing stioll doesn't have a proper Dyno and wirteup on it along with wheelie photos and a dragstrip 1/4 mile ticket?

Hey Travman
I'm home sick as a dog. I need a distraction. How's that beast going?
I am so envious.
 [popcorn]

Time for an update, how's this beast doing?

Sorry for the long delay. I hope the results aren't anticlimactic. I had the bike dyno'ed yesterday. The results were 95 hp at 6750 rpm and 82 ft/lbs of torque at 4800 rpm. I'll post a picture of the dyno sheet later today.

nothing wrong with 95 at the wheel!

82 ft lbs FTW  ;D ;D

Yeah that's pretty nuts!

(http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm21/JonTravisKing/photo.jpg?t=1326465962)

That is an awesome power curve.

 [thumbsup]

Peak torque of 82 ft lbs at only 5000rpm and holds 90+ hp from 5800-7800rpm. [thumbsup]
That's a fierce motor.  [evil]

I just wanted to mention three items which really added to the benefits of he engine work before wrapping up this thread.  After the engine work was complete the bike ran great.  Then I heard about the accelerator pump utility program for the Power Commander III from Drunken Monkey. Basically even more gas is dumped into the system when the throttle is twisted aggressively.  It is a free download from the Power Commander website and there are no drawbacks to drivability since it doesn't do anything with normal throttle inputs, only when you feel like getting on it.  Often you will hear about the great throttle response that FCR flatside carburetors provide. Well this is the fuel injected equivalent. Very satisfying.  Here is a link to some links about the utility. It is surprising that you don't hear more about more people using it.  I highly recommend this to anyone with a fuel injected bike with a PCIII.

http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=46558.0Kd (http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=46558.0Kd)

I also wanted to mention the addition of the Ducati Performance Spaghetti headers a few months after the engine work.  The design was intended to equalize the flow from each cylinder to the mufflers.  These definitely helped the engine feel smoother and rev faster. With the extra power the engine needed the increased exhaust flow.  You can see what the headers looked like here.
http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=49061.0 (http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=49061.0)

Finally, I did add a Lithium ion battery.  With the extra compression the bike does have some trouble starting mainly in the cold weather.  My Monster never was a good starter in the cold. It was worse with the compression bumped up to about 12:1.  This battery has increased cold starting capabilities and weighs a lot less than a regular battery.  Also upgraded the starter wires and ground wire. The jury is still out on this one. I think it is a success, but i haven't had a chance to test it out for very long.  Over Christmas I did have trouble starting it again at about 32 degrees F. However I was able to hook up the fast charger and start the bike 15 minutes later.

Which battery did you use? My 796 is a dodgy cold starter and @ 11.5:1 I believe I have a CCA issue with the stock battery. When I leave it on the charger a while, cold starting definitely improves. Which cables too BTW?

It is a Full Spectrum Power.  I think it was a Pulse P3.  I didn't do a bit of research on this purchase.  I trusted my parts guy on this one (Nate at DucPond, Winchester, VA).    http://fullspectrumpower.com/products_pulse.html (http://fullspectrumpower.com/products_pulse.html)

The cables were just fabbed up with larger wire and better contacts.  They do this for lots of their Ducatis.  Evidently we aren't the only two with cold starting problems. ;D

Thanks for the recommendation!

If I'm able to confirm my diagnosis, I'll take this route. Better start buying lottery tickets.  ;) Agreed, Nate is very helpful and I'd trust his input. He's already come through for me twice and is pretty reasonable. Wish he and Donnie weren't 140 miles from me! DNA wants Donnie to take a bunch of readings stone cold and for that I'd need to borrow a trailer again. Grrr... I'd just as soon he pull the bodywork off this beast too. More fasteners than a 777 to get to that battery! ;)

did you read the tech section about oil level solving the cold start problem?

Thanks, Raux,

For what it's worth, my oil level is in the middle of the sight glass. This isn't my first Ducati.  ;)

Tried to explain to the newbie that a 796 has almost zip to do with a 696. The cold start strategy in the ECU is apparently completely different. There is no fast idle lever, the compression is almost 1.3:1 higher, and the starter circuit will not permit you to crank the bike if it doesn't fire immediately. In the case of mine, some parameter isn't being reached based on either cranking speed or voltage or...

It would appear, but remains to be confirmed with more cycles, that the 215 CCA Yuasa battery will start the bike first try if the battery is charged for ~ 1/2 past full charge on the tender and the tender is left attached when first starting. Otherwise, the tricks for the M1100 seem to mostly work.

BTW, I have two V8's in the garage, one with a Bosch and one with a SAGEM ecu and neither will fire unless the cranking speed is ~ <700 RPM for 3-5 seconds after which the injectors are allowed to fire. My issue is something similar with the 796. (Not my first dance with ECU's, including Siemens. Sold $$$ vehicles for 40 years before retiring 3 years ago.)

PS - Hope the kid's 696 was just his oil level. He needs to put some miles on that thing. I got the impression he thinks it's a iPhone! ;)

Regards,

Great thread.! [thumbsup]

Real nice job there Travman!  You should post up some photos of the bike.

What piston options are there for going 1123cc+ now days on a DS