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Ducati Monster Forum

Moto Board => General Monster Forum => Topic started by: ducatiz on June 09, 2009, 11:56:37 AM



Title: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on June 09, 2009, 11:56:37 AM
Update #4  11-Oct-2010

If you have been told by a dealer any of the following, PLEASE PM ME with your contact info, i.e. name, email, phone #, and the dealer you dealt with.  I will be taking this directly to a meeting with my contacts at Ducati.

  • You have to have a leaking tank before we will replace it.
  • You have to leave a deposit to get your replacement tank
  • You have to leave your bike with us until the new tank comes in
  • Ducati isn't replacing tanks merely for expansion
  • Your bike is out of warranty, no replacement

etc

Also, if you have sold your bike due to the tank issue, please contact me as above.

Thanks

Izaak

Update #3a    28-Aug-2010:  Research links FYI
Some of you have asked for more information on the Ethanol/Water/Nylon interaction.  Some of the info I have is proprietary and I can't post it, but all of the following have the same or similar info and are public.  

Problems with E10/Ethanol absorbing water and then separating are well known, thanks to the boat industry, and manufacturers of polyamides (all) have known for years that (uncoated/untreated) Nylons absorb water in varying degrees depending on the type.  PA6, the Nylon used in your tank, is probably one of the more aggressive absorbers.  (Note: polyamides are a family of materials).

The last PA6 note mentions that PA6 can absorb moisture to 8% of its weight, and that is from a manufacturer of PA6 parts.  I wonder if ~anyone~ at Acerbis/Ducati did any research on PA6 before deciding to use it for a gas tank.


Footnotes:
On Nylon 6/PA6
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/pola.1993.080310119/abstract (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/pola.1993.080310119/abstract)
http://www.dsm.com/en_US/html/dep/akulonmoisture.htm (http://www.dsm.com/en_US/html/dep/akulonmoisture.htm)
http://www.springerlink.com/content/h046820627255320/ (http://www.springerlink.com/content/h046820627255320/)
http://www.zellamid.com/show.aspx?SP=2&url=202PA6 (http://www.zellamid.com/show.aspx?SP=2&url=202PA6)

On Ethanol adsorption of water
http://www.springerlink.com/content/j2x43q45660x5617/ (http://www.springerlink.com/content/j2x43q45660x5617/)
http://www.oregon.gov/OSMB/news/E10.shtml (http://www.oregon.gov/OSMB/news/E10.shtml)


UPDATE #3 10-Aug-2010 What is known so far:

1.  Ducati is replacing every tank that comes in with any significant deformation.  The main things to look for are a) spreading on the frame mounts (one rubber bumper on each bottom side) b) ripples in the surface or c) pressing against the keyswitch

2.  The correct procedure is to go to a dealer and have the tank inspected.  Some folks have had problems with some dealers not wanting to deal with the tank or claiming Ducati is not replacing the tanks.  So far, this has borne out to be just dealers with incorrect info.

3.  The tanks are made from Nylon 6/6, aka PA6 or Polyamide 6.  They are made by Acerbis.

4.  Nylon 6/6 absorbs water.  Ethanol wicks moisture from the air and gravity causes the water to weigh down the ethanol so that it separates from the gasoline solution.  This means you end up with a pool of water at the bottom of your tank which is readily absorbed by the nylon surface.

5.  I do not know if Acerbis/Ducati coats the interior of the tanks.  I do not believe they do.

6.  Other bikes have had the same type of problem:  Multistradas and Sport Classics.  I have not talked to anyone with an SBK yet, but I have heard rumors those as well.  

7.  Some Multistrada owners got new tanks and had them coated with Caswell's liner.  I have gotten into contact with a few of these folks and so far, they are happy with the result.  Some have had the coating for a year now.

8.  Ducati NA is actively looking into solutions.

9.  I have spoken with the Office of Defects Investigation at NHTSA and have presented to them the data on the problem.  They may open an investigation given the number of complaints thus far.  More reports can only help push this effort.

10.  Ducati NA seems to be engaged, but not to the extent we'd all like them to be.  That doesn't mean a solution isn't coming, but it also doesn't mean a solution is coming at all.  The best thing for me to do is continue working with them until I am convinced there is no more effort on their part.  I do not currently have a timeline, there is no statute of limitations for a defect suit of this type.



UPDATE #2 17-Jun-2010 Please check out HeMan's post on how to inspect your tank for signs of expansion: http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=39604.0 (http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=39604.0)

UPDATE  ***I am collecting stats on which bikes are having the tank problem and what (if any) mods may be involved.  You have to be on my list (see signup below) to receive the survey link.  That's the only way I can prevent crap responses from getting in.

Please sign up to the list to get the survey link if you haven't yet.  If you are on the list, check your email.

**************



Please see this previous post:
http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=20672.0 (http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=20672.0)

I am putting together a list of folks who are having problems with their plastic tank expanding.  

If enough people sign up, I'll draft a letter to Ducati NA explaining the problem and ask for them to remedy.  My feeling is that enough people contact them (and are verifiable owners) they will step up.  Otherwise, I don't know -- I am an attorney, I guess.

If you are having problems with your gas tank expanding, go here and please sign up:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ducatiplastictanks/join (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ducatiplastictanks/join)

Or you can join via email subscription by mailing:  
ducatiplastictanks-subscribe@yahoogroups.com



Send this link to other folks you know who might be having this problem and reference the prior thread:  http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=20672.0 (http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=20672.0)

I made the list private and NON posting, so you'll only get emails from ME directly.  When you sign up, you'll get an autoreply asking you to email the moderator with your contact information, which is necessary for contacting DNA (or anything else).

For those of you who do not know, I am an attorney and whatever you feel about lawyers, I'm a good guy and have ridden for about 25 years now, Ducatis about 24 of that.  I'm not interested in suing anyone, it's not my style, I am more of a "let's sit and have a beer and work this out" kind of attorney.

There is no charge for this at all to you.  If there is some kind of settlement, it will only be with the primary requirement that our tanks are replaced with a non-expanding variety (or at least replaced with a guarantee that it will be replaced again if it expands).  You'll have to be on the list to be part of any settlement.

Your information will be kept confidential.

Good luck to us all.




Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Uncle Mofo on June 09, 2009, 12:13:02 PM
Just signed up. Thanks Izzy.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: JBubble on June 09, 2009, 12:17:00 PM
Thank you for setting this up.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Statler on June 09, 2009, 12:21:06 PM
'tizz, I'll sticky this when I'm at a computer and not my phone.   Let's talk a bit too about details...(vin numbers would be good...as would folks whose tanks were already replaced....DMF logo and 'official' info included or no etc etc.

this is realy one of the big benefits of a forum and community...let's use that to benefit the members.

Thanks, man.

Chris


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on June 09, 2009, 12:23:22 PM
'tizz, I'll sticky this when I'm at a computer and not my phone.   Let's talk a bit too about details...(vin numbers would be good...as would folks whose tanks were already replaced....DMF logo and 'official' info included or no etc etc.

this is realy one of the big benefits of a forum and community...let's use that to benefit the members.

Thanks, man.

Chris

i put all that info in the list signup (including VIN and Ducati owner's group info if they have it).  give me a call later.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: angler on June 09, 2009, 12:31:39 PM
Way to step up!  Thanks.

Since I'm in the area, I'll have to buy you a beer one of these days.......


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: mitt on June 09, 2009, 12:34:17 PM
I stickied it.

good luck.

mitt


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: RetroSBK on June 09, 2009, 05:56:05 PM
Easy fix for the issue...

Under your gascap is a little green fitting, it seals to the bottom of the gas cap.  Simply grab a pair of pliars, and rip that sucker off there... and throw it away...

No more venting issue, and the ONLY downside is that IF the bike falls over, the cap will allow some fuel to spill onto the EPA protected ground.

Its the EPA's fault the tanks are expanding.. seriously..

BTW, by removing the vent seal, you allow the tank to vent quicker, and that unloads the fuel pump and actually gives a slight boost in HP, by increasing fuel pressure.

Will


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: herm on June 09, 2009, 05:57:08 PM
Tizzz,

do we need to sign up for a yahoo account, or is there a way around that? i am willing to do so if needed, but would rather not.

thanks for taking the lead on this!

herm


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on June 09, 2009, 08:39:40 PM
Tizzz,

do we need to sign up for a yahoo account, or is there a way around that? i am willing to do so if needed, but would rather not.

thanks for taking the lead on this!

herm

I'll add this to the top post:

Subscribe:    ducatiplastictanks-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Unsubscribe:    ducatiplastictanks-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Benjamin5150 on June 11, 2009, 06:19:45 AM
Thanks for taking this on.  I have signed up.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: tlloyd66 on June 11, 2009, 07:45:47 AM
I have signed up, thank you for not only doing this, but for also making it available to us without Yahoo accounts!


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: JTMOTO on June 11, 2009, 12:10:03 PM
joined


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: J.P. on June 11, 2009, 02:38:13 PM
I'm there- Thank You Very Much.
You da man.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: lagerman72 on June 12, 2009, 01:27:12 PM
Joined into this.  Thanks for setting it up!


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: m1moto on June 14, 2009, 07:31:44 AM
Thanks - just signed up


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Barry Cuda on June 17, 2009, 07:38:13 AM
Wow this thread and the other one opened my eyes to my tank issues.  Always thought something was strange as the steering damper was touching a spot of the tank and making a little dent.  Thought it was just a badly designed mounting point but I had the guys at the shop bring down the one edge of the mounting point a little and it was fine now it's happening again.  Then I read about the dimples on the side and went outside and checked my bike and there they were.  *Pics Attached*   

On another note...  How can Ducati deny a warranty claim for cosmetic reasons.  If your tank starts to look like shit a couple of years down the road through no fault of your own isn't that a defect in craftsmanship?  Granted that warranty is only 2 years but who would continue buying bikes from them if they knew the tanks (one of the main focal points on the bike) were going to be screwed in a couple of years (probably after your standard warranty is up) and Ducati wouldn't fix the problem?

Sorry about the pic quality.  From my iPhone.  My G/F has our good camera in her purse.  You know how chix are with cameras.
(http://i41.tinypic.com/1ylj11.jpg)
(http://i41.tinypic.com/11wc0hs.jpg)



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: SikDuc on June 17, 2009, 05:27:38 PM
Mine is getting replaced under the emissions warranty here in Las Vegas.  I think more will get replaced if the issue is pushed hard enough.  I'm one of the lucky ones so far.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on June 17, 2009, 06:10:39 PM
Mine is getting replaced under the emissions warranty here in Las Vegas.  I think more will get replaced if the issue is pushed hard enough.  I'm one of the lucky ones so far.

get on the list anyhow..

i'll be making a letter to NHTSA as well, and they would want to know ALL instances of tank deformation/ defects.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: J.P. on June 18, 2009, 09:11:00 AM
Maybe not so lucky Sikduc- the replacements seem to do the same thing in time(hopefully w/in the 5 yr. emissions warrenty for you).

Hey Phineas: think we should all do the online complaint form on the NHTSA web site?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on June 18, 2009, 09:14:16 AM
Maybe not so lucky Sikduc- to replacements seem to do the same thing in time(hopefully w/in the 5 yr. emissions warrenty for you).

Hey Phineas: think we should all do the online complaint form on the NHTSA web site?

I'm preparing a form letter for everyone to use for that.  IF you want to go ahead and do it on your own, that's fine, but I want to make an iron-clad list of issues for them to look at.

Also, if you've not had your bike looked at, the ODI/NHTSA form isn't any good since they want to see if you've been rejected first.

So if you've not had your bike looked at by Ducati, then don't bother with the NHTSA yet.  Even if Ducati replaces the tank for you, then fill out the form and report that ti was replaced with the same tank, etc.

Right now just trying to get a good fat list of people to give Ducati notice that a lot of people are having the problem, that we're all aware we're not the only one, and please do something about it.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: J.P. on June 18, 2009, 10:24:35 AM
Cool- glad a smart guy is looking into this- I just make chemicals.
BTW- I got my dealers invoice from 2 months ago stating a rejection through DNA. I'll be glad to send it, along w/ pics of a non-operable tank latch, bars hitting, pimples...
Thanks- J.P.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on June 18, 2009, 10:28:07 AM
Cool- glad a smart guy is looking into this- I just make chemicals.
BTW- I got my dealers invoice from 2 months ago stating a rejection through DNA. I'll be glad to send it, along w/ pics of a non-operable tank latch, bars hitting, pimples...
Thanks- J.P.

just put it all in a safe place and make scans if you can. thanks


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: SikDuc on June 18, 2009, 11:03:44 AM
Maybe not so lucky Sikduc- the replacements seem to do the same thing in time(hopefully w/in the 5 yr. emissions warrenty for you).

I hear ya.  But a new tank is better than no tank.  Let's see what happens.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: J.P. on June 18, 2009, 01:34:40 PM
I hear ya.  But a new tank is better than no tank.  Let's see what happens.

This is true. Just be sure to sign up for one that is alittle more permanent. Those of us stuck w/ sucky dealers would appreciate it!
Thanks. J.P.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ArcDeDucati on June 18, 2009, 02:53:03 PM
Signed up.  Just read this whole thread at work, got home and yup.  My titanium tank is warped by the latch. Bought the bike in March as a nos and have 5000 miles on it this year.  I told them to take the carbon can off before I picked it up too. I noticed that it was a little difficult last time I took it off but didn't thing anything of it as I just thought it was the fit of the tank and I am coming from a metal tanked monster previously that fit fine. 

I'm going to try out Gold Coast Motorsports here in Long Island and see if they can get me a new tank.  There service department is top notch and I buy so much crap from them that I'm sure they will help me out and prob know about the issue already.  Will let yall know what does down.

And thanks for the thread!  Let us unite and take on DNA as a forced to be reckoned with!


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: SikDuc on June 18, 2009, 06:33:35 PM
I am signing guys!  I agree with this whole process [thumbsup]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: J.P. on June 19, 2009, 09:23:11 AM
Hey- has anyone tried to tell folks on TOB about the sign-up list?


NEVER MIND- DONE.

I know it has been mentioned on the Ducati.ms monster site.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: He Man on June 29, 2009, 05:02:42 PM
i just spent hte last 30 mins trying to lift my tank. damn thing is so freaking annoying. you have to use a screw driver to wedge the clip and then i had to take of the cover for the immobilizer sensor.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Uncle Mofo on June 29, 2009, 07:06:47 PM
I pointed out the problem to the guys at Indianapolis Ducati last Saturday. Service manager took pics and measurments. Got a call today my tank will be replaced. 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: SikDuc on June 30, 2009, 10:36:33 AM
I pointed out the problem to the guys at Indianapolis Ducati last Saturday. Service manager took pics and measurments. Got a call today my tank will be replaced. 

Sweet ;D


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Greg on July 08, 2009, 04:52:03 PM
Just signed up as well.

Thanks for setting this up


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on July 09, 2009, 08:19:02 AM
Just make sure when you've signed up to the Yahoo group that you reply to the automated email with your info.  I have an Excel list with everyone's contact info and bike info that I'll be sending to DNA.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Nekkid Tim on July 13, 2009, 07:06:43 AM
I'm on the list, thanks.  Sent my info in.

My S4Rs is now up at MikMar Motor Service (where I bought it) for some unrelated work, but I mentioned the problem to Mike Duzick (MikMar owner and former franchised Ducati dealer; now independent) and he told me to take it to a currently franchised dealer to record an emissions-related warranty claim.

I was up at DucPond picking up my 1000SS track bike on Saturday and mentioned the Monster fuel tank issue to Donnie Unger, and he said to bring the bike in, that Ducati is getting "more responsive" wrt the issue.

Of course, as others have pointed out, if you get a replacment tank under warranty and it was made the exact same way of the exact same materials, won't the problem simply crop up again in a year or two?

My opinion is that Ducati ought to commission a production run of steel tanks to replace the problematical plastic items.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on July 13, 2009, 07:37:36 AM
My opinion is that Ducati ought to commission a production run of steel tanks to replace the problematical plastic items.

I think that would be nice, but unreasonable considering it would be exorbitantly expensive.

More likely, use the same rotomold with correct materials.  There is no proof, but I bet the problem is ethanol in US gasoline and it would be much easier to figure out how to re-make the tanks with alcohol-resistant nylon/plastic/whathaveu..

that being said, it's only my opinion that is the problem with the tanks.  i have talked with multiple folks in UK and Europe and no one has heard or seen the problem there.  Ethanol is not currently used in gasoline there, but will be rolled out in the next few years.  I imagine they will have a similar problem then.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: He Man on July 13, 2009, 11:37:42 AM
This is awesome. Got the email and going to head out to the dealer on friday to ask them about it...and buy a clutch. hopefully throwing some money their way might persuade them to take a look at it. if not then, ill theres no more dealers local enough to get them to check it out.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: extra330 on July 14, 2009, 03:18:37 PM
Went to the dealer today and reported the problem with my S4RS. It took all of two minutes and the guy was out taking pictures of the tank. They made note of the ripples as well as what looks like a blister (very small) :o. The dealer ask that I call Ducati and report the problem directly to them and to let them know what dealer looked at the bike.  I'll call them tomorrow but I'm sure it wil be wasted phone call. If this gets covered I'll be shocked.

Mike


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: J.P. on July 15, 2009, 10:33:35 AM
What? the dealer made you call?
slack.
Besides- we don't want the same batch of tanks, that'll just start deforming when the 5 yr. emissions warrenty is up.
I'm following Mr. Ducatiz-e's advice in this matter.
Already documented and denied through the dealer, that's enough silly kid games for me.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Nekkid Tim on July 15, 2009, 01:28:15 PM
I think that would be nice, but unreasonable considering it would be exorbitantly expensive.

Not sure why it would be exorbitantly expensive.  Expensive, sure, but why would it be much more expensive than making additional plastic tanks?  Steel tank technology is not new, certainly not new to Ducati (my 1966 250 Mach 1 and my 1973 750GT both had nicely made steel tanks that worked well for many years) and they've even made steel Monster tanks before.  Just need to stamp out a different tank bottom for each airbox variation (what are there, three or four?) and paint them.



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on July 15, 2009, 04:44:01 PM
Not sure why it would be exorbitantly expensive.  Expensive, sure, but why would it be much more expensive than making additional plastic tanks?  Steel tank technology is not new, certainly not new to Ducati (my 1966 250 Mach 1 and my 1973 750GT both had nicely made steel tanks that worked well for many years) and they've even made steel Monster tanks before.  Just need to stamp out a different tank bottom for each airbox variation (what are there, three or four?) and paint them.

They would have to have the molds made (one cost) and then get them EURO & DOT/EPA/NHTSA certified.  It would require a redesign of the pump and interior.   You can't just slap some sheet metal on and go.  The S2R tank is very different from the M900, etc.

Using the current plastic rotomolds, they have no setup or certification costs, just material and labor to remake tanks with better material. 

Far far far cheaper to remake plastic tanks.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Itsasickness on July 15, 2009, 05:23:58 PM
Just signed up as well. Thanks for doing this


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: He Man on July 15, 2009, 07:25:26 PM
UPDATE I spoke with a dealer today. They were MUCH more helpful then I thought. Especially since i got a no from a different dealer that was suppose to be much friendlier.

Anyway, They said, normally spekaing it would be plausible if the bike was under warranty, but since im about 7 months out, they are not sure if it would count as emissions warranty because the tank is still usable.

I have to email the main tech guy tomorrow and send him pics plus my vin number etc etc.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: J.P. on July 16, 2009, 09:58:39 AM
Complaint submitted to NHTSA.
Took only 5 min.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: extra330 on July 17, 2009, 01:21:19 PM
This afternoon I spoke with the dealer and got the news.......  A new tank is has been authorized by ducati for my 07 S4RS [thumbsup]. They covered the tank under the 5 year emissions warranty since the standard warranty expired last August.  After the new tank has been installed and I have copies of all the paper work I plan to file with the NTSB.. My guess is this time next year, or sooner the new tank will be just like this one.

I'm waiting for something to go wrong because getting a new tank from Ducati has been too easy. maybe I sould've waited until I had the tank in my hands before posting this..  [laugh]


Mike


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: He Man on July 17, 2009, 02:25:36 PM
lol, nice! did u get to pick a new color? :p, i bought my 06 in 07 and it was swollen already. you can only hope u can get by a few months without it swelliing!


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: lilmonster on July 18, 2009, 08:55:39 PM
What if you were to use a product called line a tank to seal the new tank to prevent gas from being in contact with the plastic. It is a one part resin used to seal a leaking or rusty tank. Just clean inside, put enough in to coat the entire inside, work it around, let cure a day or two. I have used it to seal an old tank with a hole rusted through, seems to work well and be durable. Leaves a smooth coating but is hard when cured. I used it on a metal tank don't know how it would do on a plastic tank. Just a thought, $30 for a qt.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: jwoconnor on July 18, 2009, 09:18:27 PM
They would have to have the molds made (one cost) and then get them EURO & DOT/EPA/NHTSA certified.  It would require a redesign of the pump and interior.   You can't just slap some sheet metal on and go.  The S2R tank is very different from the M900, etc.

Using the current plastic rotomolds, they have no setup or certification costs, just material and labor to remake tanks with better material. 

Far far far cheaper to remake plastic tanks.

I agree. The tooling cost would be killer. Scrap at the weld/paint shop end would also be high. No one likes to weld motorcycle tanks any more.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: He Man on July 19, 2009, 10:06:42 AM
What if you were to use a product called line a tank to seal the new tank to prevent gas from being in contact with the plastic. It is a one part resin used to seal a leaking or rusty tank. Just clean inside, put enough in to coat the entire inside, work it around, let cure a day or two. I have used it to seal an old tank with a hole rusted through, seems to work well and be durable. Leaves a smooth coating but is hard when cured. I used it on a metal tank don't know how it would do on a plastic tank. Just a thought, $30 for a qt.

only if it works for plastic tanks. the chemical itself could cause harm to the plastic and cause further warping.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: J.P. on July 19, 2009, 12:56:56 PM
This afternoon I spoke with the dealer and got the news.......  A new tank is has been authorized by ducati for my 07 S4RS [thumbsup]. They covered the tank under the 5 year emissions warranty since the standard warranty expired last August.  After the new tank has been installed and I have copies of all the paper work I plan to file with the NTSB.. My guess is this time next year, or sooner the new tank will be just like this one.

I'm waiting for something to go wrong because getting a new tank from Ducati has been too easy. maybe I sould've waited until I had the tank in my hands before posting this..  [laugh]


Mike


Yup- guess they gotta do somthing w/ the bum tanks. I sure don't want one.
When is your 5 yr. warrenty up?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: arai_speed on July 21, 2009, 10:26:57 AM
Signed up and finally submitted my info.

 [thumbsup]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: thruxton on July 27, 2009, 09:39:48 PM
Yup- guess they gotta do somthing w/ the bum tanks. I sure don't want one.
When is your 5 yr. warrenty up?

wow. my dealer submitted my 07' tank problems under emissions as well. i was thinking in my head WTF i'm doomed to fail that effort, but perhaps i will get lucky as well  ???

lucky, because i would not want to buy (almost $2000!) one of these tanks, that, as you say, will just fail again. fingers crossed for a replacement but i am still thinking of the fuel cel tank (if they make one for the S4Rs?)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: J.P. on July 28, 2009, 06:35:15 AM
wow. my dealer submitted my 07' tank problems under emissions as well. i was thinking in my head WTF i'm doomed to fail that effort, but perhaps i will get lucky as well  ???

lucky, because i would not want to buy (almost $2000!) one of these tanks, that, as you say, will just fail again. fingers crossed for a replacement but i am still thinking of the fuel cel tank (if they make one for the S4Rs?)

Good luck- but just crossing my fingers was never an option re: gallons of explosive liquid under my crotch. ;)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: damianS4RS on July 28, 2009, 04:46:07 PM
Signed up as well. Thanks for doing this. I plan to go to the dealership this weekend to see what they say. I'm hoping all you guys used up their reserve of plastic tanks and they'll send me a carbon.  ;D [laugh]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: cdv478 on July 28, 2009, 05:50:39 PM
I signed up today. Last Friday, I got my '07 S2R back from a 4 month warranty stay at the dealer for a wiring harness. I noticed that the tank mounts at the bottom of my tank sit about 1/8" outboard of being centered on the frame. After looking at photos I took in Feb '08, I can see that the tank sits differently. There are no problems with the steering lock and I can access the tank latch, but I figured it's best to start documenting it now, as it's only a matter of time before the tank gets worse. I'm going back to the dealer this weekend to see if they will acknowledge the problem and what they might do about it.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: He Man on July 28, 2009, 09:49:27 PM
2 weeks later no word.

i bought a steel tank with a ding in it. im going to repair it and polish it and PC it. 4.5gal fill ups here i come!!!!


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: schtirlitz on July 29, 2009, 07:14:04 AM
Hey all just signed up.. Thanks

Also just got a call from Speed's Cycle in Elkridge, MD that my tank was approved for replacement under Emission Warranty by DNA and the tank is in.

Good thing, i guess.. One issue though, what do i do if it expands again..

Cheers.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: kumabull on July 29, 2009, 08:35:46 AM
Crazy I just emailed Joe at Speeds about doing the same thing for me.... Small world I hope I get approved as well im swinging by Sat so Chad can take a look.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Cabbie on July 30, 2009, 09:48:09 AM
Easy fix for the issue...

Under your gascap is a little green fitting, it seals to the bottom of the gas cap.  Simply grab a pair of pliars, and rip that sucker off there... and throw it away...

No more venting issue, and the ONLY downside is that IF the bike falls over, the cap will allow some fuel to spill onto the EPA protected ground.

Its the EPA's fault the tanks are expanding.. seriously..

BTW, by removing the vent seal, you allow the tank to vent quicker, and that unloads the fuel pump and actually gives a slight boost in HP, by increasing fuel pressure.

Will

I would be careful doing this, there is another downide to doing this.. If you pull that seal, you will almost certainly void your warranty and any claim you might have had because you are altering the stock makeup of the tank..


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on July 30, 2009, 10:40:30 AM
I would be careful doing this, there is another downide to doing this.. If you pull that seal, you will almost certainly void your warranty and any claim you might have had because you are altering the stock makeup of the tank..

I would give it about a 0.001% chance that pressure is causing the deformation.  There is plenty of venting available. 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: extra330 on July 31, 2009, 11:55:47 AM
I would give it about a 0.001% chance that pressure is causing the deformation.  There is plenty of venting available. 

I don't think the odds are even that high that this is a venting issue..  [thumbsup]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Nekkid Tim on August 03, 2009, 06:33:25 AM
They would have to have the molds made (one cost) and then get them EURO & DOT/EPA/NHTSA certified.  It would require a redesign of the pump and interior.   You can't just slap some sheet metal on and go.  The S2R tank is very different from the M900, etc.

Using the current plastic rotomolds, they have no setup or certification costs, just material and labor to remake tanks with better material. 

Far far far cheaper to remake plastic tanks.

I don't understand why they would have to redesign the pump or the interior.  I just transferred the pump from my stock steel 1000SS tank to a carbon kevlar ETI FuelCel on my track bike; that didn't require any changes at all.

As far as different versions go, my understanding is that it is the floor of the tank that is different for each plastic model, due to the different airbox configurations for the different motors.  The floor of the tank in a steel tank is a separate part from the rest of the tank.  So, as I said, Ducati makes three or four variants of the floor of the tank, and all the replacement tanks share the same upper/outer/side formed steel shell.  Have any M900 owners had this problem?  Any M620/695 owners?  Afaik, it is limited to S2R800/S2R1000/S4Rs models.

If Ducati makes a DIFFERENT plastic tank (no indication that they are) won't it also have to go through the same EURO & DOT/EPA/NHTSA certification process as a replacement steel tank would have to?  Won't DOT/EPA/NHTSA/TUV etc. have to sign off on any changes to the plastic used, regardless of whether the same mold is used or not?  Are there no material standards for fuel tank design and production?

If they don't make a different plastic tank, and just keep making the same tank, and replace the tanks that have grown/warped/bubbled with the exact same tank, won't they have a perpetual safety hazard as well as a disgruntled owner community to deal with?   What is cheaper in the long run?  That spending the money now to solve a well known problem with a well known and proven solution that will certainly end the anger and reassure the owner community that Ducati is looking out for them, or to continually dick around on a case by case basis, and actually replace materially deficient, extremely expensive components, with the EXACT SAME deficient assembly as a warranty "fix?"

I'm not saying that Ducati WILL make steel tanks, but it is certainly my opinion that they SHOULD make steel tanks to resolve what appears to be a major problem with their product on the market.  I've been buying Ducatis since 1986, and have owned about 15 of them (I have five right now), and this situation angers me to the point that I'm not at all certain that I'll be buying another one of their bikes in the future.  I'll certainly not buy another brand new one until this issue is properly resolved.

My tank is almost worn through from rubbing against the plastic housing of the ignition key. I think it is a clear safety hazard.  Practically speaking, it is also an annoyance and a hindrance to working on and maintaining the motorcycle.   To remove and replace the tank is an exercise in frustration and extra work. 

This past Saturday, DucPond Motorsports examined my tank, measured it, took notes on it, and took pictures of it, and will be submitting a warranty claim on my behalf.   I hope Ducati honors the warranty and replaces the tank.  I hope the replacement tank (if provided) doesn't start exhibiting the same problems as the original oem tank.  But I think it will.  I expect it to.

I'll probably end up commissioning some British artisan to pound out an aluminum alloy replacement tank, unless ETI FuelCel actually comes out with a carbon kevlar tank that works on the S4Rs model, in which case I'd  buy one of those to put this problem behind me.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on August 03, 2009, 06:59:01 AM
If Ducati makes a DIFFERENT plastic tank (no indication that they are) won't it also have to go through the same EURO & DOT/EPA/NHTSA certification process as a replacement steel tank would have to?  Won't DOT/EPA/NHTSA/TUV etc. have to sign off on any changes to the plastic used, regardless of whether the same mold is used or not?  Are there no material standards for fuel tank design and production?

No.  The issue for EPA/NHTSA is the venting.  Make a new tank means the venting has to be certified. The material is not the issue (rather, getting a new tank certified only requires basic crush testing for NHTSA but significant venting testing for EPA).


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Nekkid Tim on August 03, 2009, 08:09:55 AM
No.  The issue is the venting.  Make a new tank means the venting has to be certified. The material is not the issue.


I find that surprising.  Guess I'll have to educate myself on NHTSA/DOT/EPA/TUV European motorcycle tank venting rules and regulations.  Sigh.   The things one has to know to pursue a motorcycling hobby these days!


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on August 03, 2009, 10:30:19 AM
I find that surprising.  Guess I'll have to educate myself on NHTSA/DOT/EPA/TUV European motorcycle tank venting rules and regulations.  Sigh.   The things one has to know to pursue a motorcycling hobby these days!

Law school isn't cheap!


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: rockaduc on August 03, 2009, 03:55:21 PM
Just signed-up.  Thanks for doing this.

Stupid Ducati....


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on August 03, 2009, 04:11:55 PM
Just signed-up.  Thanks for doing this.

Stupid Ducati....

I wouldn't lean too hard on Ducati for the mistake -- gasoline in Europe doesn't have ethanol (yet) and that is looking to be the big problem.  Ducati outsourced the tank manufacture, and I bet the maker (Ascerbis) is actually the culprit.  I would not be surprised if there is (or will be) some litigation on it between them.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on August 04, 2009, 03:24:15 PM
[roll] [roll] [roll] [roll] [roll] [roll] [roll]   

what?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: extra330 on August 05, 2009, 07:28:52 AM
OK, now I know what you're talking about.  I should prob. delete my other posts..


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: J.P. on August 07, 2009, 08:51:40 AM
NHTSA complaints from monster owners re: fuel system so far:

Year       # reg.complaint
2005               2
2006               2
2007               3
2008               0
2009               0

Compared to the sport classic guys- 27 complaints for 2007 models, and 22 for 2006.
Guess that's why they're getting new designed/formulated tanks.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on August 07, 2009, 09:21:14 AM
NHTSA complaints from monster owners re: fuel system so far:

Year       # reg.complaint
2005               1
2006               2
2007               3
2008               0
2009               0

Compared to the sport classic guys- 25 complaints for 2007 models alone.
Guess that's why they're getting new designed/formulated tanks.


where did you get this?  link?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Nekkid Tim on August 07, 2009, 10:24:20 AM
NHTSA complaints from monster owners re: fuel system so far:

Year       # reg.complaint
2005               1
2006               2
2007               3
2008               0
2009               0

Compared to the sport classic guys- 25 complaints for 2007 models alone.
Guess that's why they're getting new designed/formulated tanks.


Much more likely because they are current, ongoing models.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: J.P. on August 07, 2009, 01:29:58 PM
where did you get this?  link?
try: http://www.odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/ivoq/ (http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/ivoq/)

Same pg. as the submit complaint one.
click on "search complaints"
it's a pain, as you need to search through each year, model.
Again- thanks for your attention in this matter. Still haven't heard back from the NHTSA inspectors.
Also I revised my count on my above post.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Paegelow on August 08, 2009, 06:56:24 AM
I just submitted my complaint...  I have a 2007 695, but it wasn't on the pulldown menu so I put in 2007 S2R1000


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on August 08, 2009, 07:44:52 AM
try: http://www.odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/ivoq/ (http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/ivoq/)

Same pg. as the submit complaint one.
click on "search complaints"
it's a pain, as you need to search through each year, model.
Again- thanks for your attention in this matter. Still haven't heard back from the NHTSA inspectors.
Also I revised my count on my above post.

I saw the lookup now, thanks for offering that.  I'm going to post that up to the sign-up list as a reminder.  People need to get off their asses.

Re:  NHTSA, did you get a report number?  I got one and got an email from them with the report #


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: J.P. on August 08, 2009, 09:47:57 AM
yes-got a report # and e-mail some time ago.
Can't believe folks haven't done the online form yet.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: He Man on August 08, 2009, 02:22:35 PM
WEll it looks like i got myself a new tank, its slated for late august, since well. its august and its italy.  :)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: rockaduc on August 09, 2009, 12:54:00 PM
Just filled out the online form.  [thumbsup]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Qwack on August 18, 2009, 03:07:22 AM
Just noticed problems this weekend, contacting dealership today to see when they can take a look at the bike and put a claim in for me.  Its still under warranty. so I shouldn't have any trouble...

Will sign up later today...Thanks for doing this 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: scduc on August 21, 2009, 04:55:23 PM
Ive had my bike for a little over a year now, and I have to say I was sceptical about any issues with the tanks. Until now, as I am starting to look over the bike and see what I can do to clean up the rats nest of hoses and wires, I notice that my tank, right side in front of the knee indents, looks like its starting to bubble. I will notify my dealer next week when I take it in for the 7k service. What exactly do you do to sign up? Also, what about the aftermarket fuel caps? Will these cause warranty issues?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on August 22, 2009, 04:39:03 AM
Ive had my bike for a little over a year now, and I have to say I was sceptical about any issues with the tanks. Until now, as I am starting to look over the bike and see what I can do to clean up the rats nest of hoses and wires, I notice that my tank, right side in front of the knee indents, looks like its starting to bubble. I will notify my dealer next week when I take it in for the 7k service. What exactly do you do to sign up? Also, what about the aftermarket fuel caps? Will these cause warranty issues?

Read the first post for the entire explanation of what I am trying to do and the sign up list link:

http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=25074 (http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=25074)


In Short, I am getting as many folks as possible to put together a polite demand letter to Ducati to fix the tank problems permanently and to warranty the replacement tanks.

Secondly, everyone needs to file a NHTSA report so that this can be tracked officially.  The more that people report it, the more pressure will be put on Ducati to fix the problem.

I just feel bad for the Euro/UK riders who will be screwed when Europe introduces E5 and E10 gasoline in the next few years.  They will have a 2-3 year "Sword of Damocles" over them.  I don't know what recourse they will have by then.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: angler on August 22, 2009, 09:10:01 AM
I've got an appt with Nathan at DucPond on Wednesday.  We will see if I can get it warrantied.  I sent him some pics of the swelling and he said it is one of the worst he has seen.  I'll file with the feds shortly thereafter.

Thanks again Ducatiz. [thumbsup]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on August 22, 2009, 09:18:37 AM
I've got an appt with Nathan at DucPond on Wednesday.  We will see if I can get it warrantied.  I sent him some pics of the swelling and he said it is one of the worst he has seen.  I'll file with the feds shortly thereafter.

Thanks again Ducatiz. [thumbsup]

Angler, what mods do you have on your bike, engine-wise?  I am curious what they are looking for/at when they look at the tanks.

Also, please post your pics? (or email them to me and I'll post)

thanks


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Qwack on August 22, 2009, 10:18:15 AM
Hubby took bike to Dealership Tuesday, they filed with DNA and THursday we got word that DNA will replace my tank  [thumbsup]  I took a pix of the spacing or rather lack of spacing of the tank to the Key the dimpling on the sides was too hard to get photos of.  I will send you the pix if you need it.  off to sign up on the yahoo list and the national list too.  thanks for everything DUCATIZ...

BTW: dealership had told me that Triumph had had these problems and they switched back to metal tanks...gee wouldn't that be nice if Ducati would just do that too  :)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: angler on August 22, 2009, 10:21:02 AM
Angler, what mods do you have on your bike, engine-wise?  I am curious what they are looking for/at when they look at the tanks.

Also, please post your pics? (or email them to me and I'll post)

thanks

I have no vapor system and boomtubes.  Those are really the only mods that might make a difference.

Nathan said that he needed to take pictures of the bike and take measurements himself.  I also need a TPS check/reset since installing the exhaust, so it worked out.  At first when he said just to email him some pics, I thought I might get lucky and get an answer without having to ride out there as it is a haul.

Here are a few pictures

Area on tank where the key/latch area has rubber through the paint and is now rubbing through the tank:
(http://photos-e.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs186.snc1/6209_1174345769231_1545666740_442860_6494957_n.jpg)

Right side ripples and bubbles. Oddly there are no ripples on the left side:
(http://photos-h.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs186.snc1/6209_1174345889234_1545666740_442863_8246045_n.jpg)

Right side ripples II:
(http://photos-a.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs166.snc1/6209_1174345969236_1545666740_442864_3318327_n.jpg)

Right side bumper:
(http://photos-g.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs186.snc1/6209_1174345849233_1545666740_442862_101694_n.jpg)

Left side bumper:
(http://photos-f.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs186.snc1/6209_1174345809232_1545666740_442861_7545765_n.jpg)

Cracks/blisters around filler:
(http://photos-f.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs166.snc1/6209_1174348569301_1545666740_442885_5260369_n.jpg)

Bump on tank:
(http://photos-g.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs166.snc1/6209_1174348609302_1545666740_442886_7104941_n.jpg)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: J.P. on August 22, 2009, 01:45:32 PM
Wow- that's horrible! I'd file w/ the feds right now, Your 5 year emissions warrenty is up next year.
Guess that's what the US '06 owners have in store in about a year?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: He Man on August 23, 2009, 10:54:59 AM
pretty much. Theres a email going around tahts been trying to get people to sign up so ducatiz can submit the email. but for some reason, people are too lazy to check it. Im sure you guys either have him on block by accident, or are just ignoring it.

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE submit your name and VIN. Just because Ducati will replace it once, does not mean it will not swell again.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: J.P. on August 23, 2009, 02:08:44 PM
NHTSA complaints filed.

Looks like only 2 more for 2005's
2 more for 2007 since my last tally 2 weeks ago.



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: slipperymike on August 24, 2009, 10:06:04 PM
Filed mine. Also replied to the email with my required info. Hopefully I'll be able to get down to the dealer soon to have them take a look. Is it neccessary to make an appointment? I've never been to my dealer (motocorsa).

Thanks for everything!


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on August 25, 2009, 03:20:17 AM

Just call them.  The initial lookover will just be an exam and photos.  Mine didn't need an appt


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: extra330 on August 25, 2009, 11:02:18 AM

how do you search for complaints without the ODI number? The only ODI I have is for my complaint so that's the only one I can see.. It's not the easiest website to nav.


NHTSA complaints filed.

Looks like only 2 more for 2005's
2 more for 2007 since my last tally 2 weeks ago.




Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on August 25, 2009, 11:22:45 AM
Same search interface.  Click vehicle button and the search button under


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: rockaduc on August 25, 2009, 01:55:51 PM
I just heard back from my dealer today, looks like I will be getting a new tank also.  I have also filed a complaint online w/ the NHTSA about 2 weeks ago.

I am wondering if my 5 year emissions warranty clock "resets", so that when this happens in another 4 years or so, I can get another new tank.  Of course it would be nice if Ducati just fixed the issue correctly and gave us all metal tanks as replacements.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on August 25, 2009, 02:21:44 PM
Nope.  Neither warranty resets that I know of.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: angler on August 26, 2009, 09:55:43 AM
Just got back from Ducpond.  They think I will get it warrantied.  He was a bit concerned because the tank had been repainted, which was news to me.  I'll know by Friday.  I'll file my NHTSA complaint soon.



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Rufus120 on August 26, 2009, 05:51:52 PM
Ok so I shot you off an email at this address as I don't have a yahoo account.

ducatiplastictanks-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

I would guess my tank is only starting to bubble and isn't as bad as some of the pics here, but I'd like to try and best one step ahead.  I'll make an appointment to have it looked at by Moto Corsa here in Portland. I'm the second owner of my bike.  Is that going to matter? The original owner bought in there.  If that doesn't matter than and they turn me down I'll file my complaint.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on August 26, 2009, 06:01:38 PM
Ok so I shot you off an email at this address as I don't have a yahoo account.

ducatiplastictanks-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

I would guess my tank is only starting to bubble and isn't as bad as some of the pics here, but I'd like to try and best one step ahead.  I'll make an appointment to have it looked at by Moto Corsa here in Portland. I'm the second owner of my bike.  Is that going to matter? The original owner bought in there.  If that doesn't matter than and they turn me down I'll file my complaint.

it doesn't matter, and you should file the incident report with NHTSA no matter what.

the NHTSA report is not a complaint, it is a report of a DEFECT.  it has no bearing on the dealer's reporting back to Ducati, it is to give the Feds a heads-up that Ducati sold a defective (and possibly dangerous) gas tank on multiple models. 

DO THE REPORT no matter what the result of your visit to the dealer.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: scduc on August 29, 2009, 12:14:48 PM
I took my S2R in today for the 7500 mile check-up, and notified the tech that i had some deformation with the tank. He took a look and siad he will file a claim with Ducati. He sounded very confident that they would simply replace the tank. Now I am a wait and see. So do I file a report with the NHTSA now, or do I wait until I hear what the verdict will be?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: rockaduc on August 29, 2009, 01:15:57 PM
I took my S2R in today for the 7500 mile check-up, and notified the tech that i had some deformation with the tank. He took a look and siad he will file a claim with Ducati. He sounded very confident that they would simply replace the tank. Now I am a wait and see. So do I file a report with the NHTSA now, or do I wait until I hear what the verdict will be?
it doesn't matter, and you should file the incident report with NHTSA no matter what.

the NHTSA report is not a complaint, it is a report of a DEFECT.  it has no bearing on the dealer's reporting back to Ducati, it is to give the Feds a heads-up that Ducati sold a defective (and possibly dangerous) gas tank on multiple models. 

DO THE REPORT no matter what the result of your visit to the dealer.
scduc, you were kidding with that question right? The answer was literally posted right above your post.  You must have read it before you posted.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: scduc on August 29, 2009, 04:29:22 PM
scduc, you were kidding with that question right? The answer was literally posted right above your post.  You must have read it before you posted.
Yeah, I know. my brain must of farted. It's only been a couple of hours, but I think I may be going through withdrawal's. Any way, I fill out th eforms the best I could, cuz there was no report for 08' S2R. I do however have an ODI #. So all is good, yes?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Qwack on August 29, 2009, 05:23:16 PM
ducatiz , send an email to that subscribe address you gave, and got no reply email....so I signed up on yahoo, and I must be doing something wrong as I have not received any email back to send my info to...what on earth am I doing wrong... [bang]

BTE my new tank is in at dealership will have installed next week  [thumbsup]

thanks


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: J.P. on August 30, 2009, 05:02:22 AM
NHTSA monster tank report talley

'05  4 filed
'06  3 filed
'07  6 filed
'08  1 filed

Still haven't heard from an instector, and I filed well over a month ago. Must not have enough on file to make this issue very important.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on August 30, 2009, 08:17:04 AM
NHTSA monster tank report talley

'05  4 filed
'06  3 filed
'07  6 filed
'08  1 filed

Still haven't heard from an instector, and I filed well over a month ago. Must not have enough on file to make this issue very important.

thanks for posting this.

people need to get off their asses.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: angler on August 30, 2009, 08:37:45 AM
Officially off my ass - complaint has been submitted.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Nekkid Tim on August 31, 2009, 05:51:58 AM
Filed my report with the NHTSA today.  Interestingly enough, I noted another 2007 S4RS complaint about failed TPS sensors causing stalling.  I have already had my throttle bodies replaced TWICE on my bike for this very problem.  Looks like I'll be filing a second complaint after I get home and have access to my service records!

Oh, and it's been several weeks and I have not heard back from DucPond about my Warranty claim with Ducati.  <sigh>  Guess I'll have to call them and find out what's going on (or what's not going on, more likely.)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: angler on September 03, 2009, 11:44:21 AM
WOOOOOOOOHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!

I just got word from Nathan over at DucPond - DNA is going to replace my tank!!!

Unfortunately, they have one dark tank on back order in front of me so it may take 2-3 weeks (or more is my guess) to get it done.  That is A-OK by me.......


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: He Man on September 03, 2009, 12:03:33 PM
still waiting word back from ducati on my tank...


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on September 03, 2009, 12:30:22 PM
Yeah I bet you want a new one especially now


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: DCXCV on September 03, 2009, 01:12:37 PM
Okay, so finally filed a report.  Oddly, they have 696 in the drop down for '07 when it wasn't offered, but not the 695.  Oh, well.

My local dealer, Renaissance Motorcycles, said they ought to have a new tank for me in about a month.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: He Man on September 04, 2009, 08:16:27 AM
Yeah I bet you want a new one especially now

 [bang] i dont even care if its pink.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on September 04, 2009, 08:45:33 AM
[bang] i dont even care if its pink.

one in the pink, as long as it don't stink?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: J.P. on September 04, 2009, 10:17:27 AM
Rode into work today- tank is so bad it's absurd.
BUT-
I'm reluctant to get a replacement. Wondering if I'd get denied a new improved version once our efforts to petition/ pressure Ducati into a permanent fix comes to fruition, claiming that I was already taken care of within the 5 year period.

In other words- has anyone got a warrenty statement on their replacement tank yet?

Thanks everyone!


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Uncle Mofo on September 04, 2009, 05:35:05 PM
Still waiting on my replacement. Approximate delivery date 9/14/09


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on September 04, 2009, 05:59:03 PM
Rode into work today- tank is so bad it's absurd.
BUT-
I'm reluctant to get a replacement. Wondering if I'd get denied a new improved version once our efforts to petition/ pressure Ducati into a permanent fix comes to fruition, claiming that I was already taken care of within the 5 year period.

In other words- has anyone got a warrenty statement on their replacement tank yet?

Thanks everyone!

at least one person i've communicated with has gotten a SECOND replacement.

my plan is to get a lifetime warranty on the replacement tank against expansion.  i don't know how likely that is, but it seems to me they have a manufacturing defect here and if they are just going to slap on the same kind of tank with the same kind of problem its not going to do anybody any good -- it just ends up delaying the same problem for another 2-3 years ( and in many cases, new owners )

They have to make it good.  if they sold a frame that broke and then replaced it with a frame that broke, you can bet they would have a lot more eyes on them. 

Make the NHTSA report and go ahead and get the replacement -- and make sure you're on my mailing list.  (see signup info in OP)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: rockaduc on September 05, 2009, 05:19:59 AM
Just got my replacement tank yesterday.  No one at the shop could tell me if I was covered if this happens again in another 2-3 years.  Regarding the new tank...WOW, I can't believe how much the old one had warped!!!!!  I have sooo much room at the tank latch/ignition now.   I also had to readjust my steering stops, crickey that thing was wacked!!!  I actually have a near normal turning radius now.   [thumbsup]

Now I just need to replace my tank pad.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: J.P. on September 05, 2009, 11:48:28 AM
Just got my replacement tank yesterday.  No one at the shop could tell me if I was covered if this happens again in another 2-3 years.  Regarding the new tank...WOW, I can't believe how much the old one had warped!!!!!  I have sooo much room at the tank latch/ignition now.   I also had to readjust my steering stops, crickey that thing was wacked!!!  I actually have a near normal turning radius now.   [thumbsup]

Guess that's what we're worried about- in 2-3 yrs., you'll be out of warrenty.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Nekkid Tim on September 05, 2009, 12:30:06 PM
Filed my report with the NHTSA today.  Interestingly enough, I noted another 2007 S4RS complaint about failed TPS sensors causing stalling.  I have already had my throttle bodies replaced TWICE on my bike for this very problem.  Looks like I'll be filing a second complaint after I get home and have access to my service records!

Oh, and it's been several weeks and I have not heard back from DucPond about my Warranty claim with Ducati.  <sigh>  Guess I'll have to call them and find out what's going on (or what's not going on, more likely.)

Word from Ducpond is that the warranty claim has been accepted by Ducati and a new tank will arrive on 9/14.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: motolocopat on September 06, 2009, 04:00:55 AM
Are we talking about all non-metallic tanks here... such as the one on my 06 S2R1000?

I haven't noticed any problem with it as far as expansion or wavy sides...
Assuming this is on of the potentially affected bikes do I have to wait until there is a problem?
Doesn't seem right.
Once it has been identified as a problem I'd think that there should be a recall of all affected serial numbers... in a perfect world anyway.

So how about this non-perfect world, can I sign up as having one of the tanks that was built with a faulty process or do I have to wait until there is a problem?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on September 06, 2009, 04:42:29 AM
All plastic tanks on all monsters are suspect.

No recall yet.  Not enough ppl filing NHTSA reports

I've got about 60 ppl on my signup list but only about 15 have filed.

Not gonna get a recall with only 15 reports on 20 diff bikes (year and model)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: csp808 on September 06, 2009, 11:51:28 AM
Iz i sent a repot and emailed you the number if you need it thanks again for this  [beer]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ZOSO on September 06, 2009, 12:14:51 PM
Just e-mailed ducatiz to subscribe due to my ever-expanding tank .  .  .


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: cduarte on September 06, 2009, 04:14:16 PM
thanks! just joined the list...  [bow_down]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on September 07, 2009, 09:12:39 AM
When you guys sign up, be sure to reply to the auto mail.  I need your contact info and VIN.

-iz


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: cduarte on September 08, 2009, 07:54:09 AM
just filed my report, and I went to a local ducati dealership and they'll be ordering me a new tank.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: JustDucky on September 08, 2009, 11:24:11 PM
'Nother sign up to the mailing list. :'(
 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: J.P. on September 10, 2009, 09:36:36 AM
Tally of Latest NHSTA complaints filed
2008-- 2 filed
2007-- 9
2006-- 6
2005-- 6

Outlook is getting better toward a permanent fix. For those still unfiled: please follow the directions and fill out the little form! This might just work and we can get a good tank FO' FREE! And not pay $1300 for the same crap or more for an upgrade.
Time is running out for the 2005 guys.
Thanks.J.P.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: csp808 on September 11, 2009, 04:04:46 PM
given this doesnt work are there aftermarket tanks out there that will last? I really like my bike but i need a bike i can keep for a long time. Idont want to be buying tanks everytime the winter olympics come around


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on September 11, 2009, 04:06:23 PM
given this doesnt work are there aftermarket tanks out there that will last? I really like my bike but i need a bike i can keep for a long time. Idont want to be buying tanks everytime the winter olympics come around

yes there are a few, they are pricey.. none are copies of the stock setup, they are superlight or high capacity models.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: scduc on September 15, 2009, 03:15:38 PM
My dealer called me today and said that my new tank is slated for delivery mid to end of November. I'm cool with that. Just hope that if Ducati ever does fix the problem and my new tank does it again, that they will re-replace.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: J.P. on September 16, 2009, 07:30:12 AM
nevermind


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on September 16, 2009, 08:05:29 AM
I used to hope that our O2/ecu problems would be fixed for free.
I hoped that I would get a gauge pod that wouldn't fog up.
Or a rear brake that didn't need bleeding 2x a year.
Or cases that didn't bubble under the paint.
Or maybe a tank that works as it should- I can't lock my steering or lift the tank latch.
So far I've learned that hope and a nickle will get you a cup of Jack Squat.
I've lost all hope. Time for action.


getting organized and asking nicely sometimes will do the trick.  most small manufacturers (like Ducati) respond well when 100+ people call up and say "we're all having the same problem, why don't you do something about it."  bad publicity is the last thing they need for telling loyal owners to pound sand.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: cduarte on September 18, 2009, 06:48:57 PM
just filed my report, and I went to a local ducati dealership and they'll be ordering me a new tank.

update, the dealership called me (Valley Motorsports in Northampton, MA) today and informed me that the tank was in! This only took 10 days. I scheduled an appointment for early next week and they said they would install the tank while I waited as it only would take an hour or so. I can't thank ducatiz enough for the assistance with this.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on September 19, 2009, 10:20:23 AM
well thanks i guess, i am learning just like everyone else.  maybe someone was reading this thread and pushed things along for tank problems at DNA -- who knows?

either way, something is wrong with those tanks and Ducati should make it right.  it's not like it has happened on 2 or 3 of them, it's happening on all of them.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Uncle Mofo on September 19, 2009, 11:32:53 AM
Mine has arrived as well.  I'm going to Indy Ducati and have it replaced next Saturday.
 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: He Man on September 19, 2009, 03:27:29 PM
i emailed my dealer, havent heard from them..its been about 2 months. will try calling tomorrow. I have a feeling they are pulling my leg.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Paegelow on September 20, 2009, 04:53:50 AM
Mine has also been almost 2 months...  They say it is on the way though, hopefully by the end of the month.  I don't get why some are taking so long, and some people are getting there's in less than two weeks!


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: cduarte on September 20, 2009, 06:25:17 AM
Mine has also been almost 2 months...  They say it is on the way though, hopefully by the end of the month.  I don't get why some are taking so long, and some people are getting there's in less than two weeks!

probably depends on the dealership, unfortunately.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on September 20, 2009, 08:56:54 AM
I imagine part of it is the color, some are more common than others.  Mine is Acid Yellow and was only on the S2R for '05...


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Paegelow on September 21, 2009, 03:05:25 PM
Well mine is gloss black.  Maybe that's kind of uncommon


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: He Man on September 21, 2009, 03:27:38 PM
i dont even know what mine is. bike was orignally silver with black stripe. but its black now.

still havent gotten word from them.



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: cduarte on September 22, 2009, 11:44:01 AM
Just got my replacement tank yesterday.  No one at the shop could tell me if I was covered if this happens again in another 2-3 years.  Regarding the new tank...WOW, I can't believe how much the old one had warped!!!!!  I have sooo much room at the tank latch/ignition now.   I also had to readjust my steering stops, crickey that thing was wacked!!!  I actually have a near normal turning radius now.   [thumbsup]

Now I just need to replace my tank pad.

got my tank today, what a difference! Again, mine was significantly warped as well.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: yotogi on September 22, 2009, 12:29:54 PM
Just signed up, haven't noticed anything TOO crazy with mine, but I suspect I am getting expansion.

Can one of the people who have received a new tank post a top down of your tank at the latch. I am looking to see just how far away from the ignition the tank is supposed to be.

TIA!


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: cduarte on September 22, 2009, 01:48:27 PM
here you go... note the boss on the right side of the ignition lock. On my bike prior to the tank being replaced, the tank was rubbing on the lock and it was almost impossible to unlatch the tank.

(http://home.comcast.net/~c.duarte/monster695e.jpg)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: 1d10t on September 22, 2009, 02:51:17 PM
Just filed mine with the NHTSA.  Pull down doesn't have 2006 S2R1000 listed so I filed it as a 2007 S2R1000.  I also subscribed to the Yahoo group.  I'll get the information to you shortly when I get home.

Funny thing was I noticed the tank's rubber feet didn't line up with the frame and I was having a difficult time getting the tank latch to hook up.  I thought I was going crazy.  Love my bike and I'd like to keep it for years.



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Nekkid Tim on September 23, 2009, 10:55:50 AM
My complaint was filed with the NHTSA, my warranty claim was filed with Ducati, and yesterday I got the call that the new tank had arrived at the dealer.   Guess I'll have it installed.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: herm on September 24, 2009, 08:21:31 AM
Update:

my top triple is now leaving a scratch on my tank in the full lock positon [bang] [bang] [bang]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: orenjimonster on September 24, 2009, 09:17:20 AM
i just got my S2R and I can't wait to see what shape my tank turn into. the previous owner already had the tank replaced once...  [coffee]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: He Man on September 26, 2009, 06:17:36 AM
How do you guys get the tanks so quickly?

this is the email i receieved..
Quote
"Im sorry I havent been able to get back to you I've been out for a bit, unfortunately, the tank is still not in and its been over 2 months, everytime I process an availability for the tank it comes up as not available and will give a a backorder date, when I've contacted DNA they cannot give me a eta for the tank, I will stay on top of it for you and the minute I get any news I'll get back in contact with you."


I'm pretty sure they are just busting my balls from the get go...



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: rockaduc on September 26, 2009, 03:15:15 PM
They might be.  Although different dealers might have better or worse relationships w/ DNA.  That might have something to do w/ the expediancy of processing these claims.  I got my tank in 2 weeks; in August.  My dealer tried to give me the ol' "well its August, so don't expect this for atleast a month".  To which I replied, "Really?  I know for a fact that several people form the DMF have gotten their replacement tanks in 1-2 weeks this month (it was august). "
Needless to say, my tank arrived shortly thereafter.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: scduc on September 26, 2009, 05:01:48 PM
 They told me my tank would be in some time in November. That was 2 weeks ago. So much to my surprise when I get there, to pick her up after the 7500mile check-up, I see a  new tank on bike. Swwweeet. Then they tell me they are closing the doors for good at the end of Oct. I almost wanted to puke.  [puke] This will be the second dealer in the past 10 years to close in my area. Well the first just stopped selling duc's.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: cduarte on September 26, 2009, 05:17:55 PM
How do you guys get the tanks so quickly?

this is the email i receieved..

I'm pretty sure they are just busting my balls from the get go...



go to the dealership and be a squeaky wheel... actually, I took my bike up to a ducati shop I'd never been to before, showed them what was wrong with the tank, and they took very good care of me. I got my tank in 10 days.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Paegelow on September 27, 2009, 04:36:30 AM
Then they tell me they are closing the doors for good at the end of Oct. I almost wanted to puke.  [puke]

Do you go to Corse Superbikes?  I just found that out yesterday too....  That sucks


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: scduc on September 27, 2009, 05:33:31 AM
Do you go to Corse Superbikes?  I just found that out yesterday too....  That sucks
Yes, Kevin says that DNA "will" be opening a new dealership in the spring. I wont hold my breath, but I would sure be happy if they did.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: He Man on September 27, 2009, 09:24:49 AM
So what do u guys think i should do. I can show up barking. But theres no point. Its not my dealership, i never bought a damn thing from them, and i dont expect them to help me. I refused to buy stuff from them, and i thought this would change my mind. but it just reinforces what i think.

Ill give them 2 weeks and then email them again and tell them that i know a bunch of people who got their tanks within days. But other then that, i dont think i have a recourse.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Paegelow on September 27, 2009, 11:36:46 AM
Yes, Kevin says that DNA "will" be opening a new dealership in the spring. I wont hold my breath, but I would sure be happy if they did.

Yeah that's what they told me as well.  It would be nice if one shows up in Milwaukee!  But it does suck, they have a lot of good guys working there now, hopefully they can get on board with the new dealership


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: scduc on September 27, 2009, 02:03:44 PM
I think that DNA may be trying to settle the score with the dealerships that are closeing first. Think about it. If your dealer closes and you are still waiting for a tank, you may just be screwed. That would leave a serious issue for many people. However, if they fix the issues with the closeing dealers, that is one less problem to have to deal with. It may not be right/fair, but this way the unfortunate people can say "well at least I got my tank fixed".


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Uncle Mofo on September 27, 2009, 03:04:28 PM
I just got mine installed yesterday. I waited 2 months for it.   


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Nekkid Tim on October 01, 2009, 11:04:22 AM
Sceduled to drop my S4Rs off at DucPond Motosports in Winchester, VA on Saturday, for them to install my recently arrived replacement tank.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on October 01, 2009, 11:09:31 AM
How long did it take?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: DCXCV on October 01, 2009, 12:47:28 PM
My new tank is being installed today - the shop said it would take about a month to get the new tank and we're at just under the month mark.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Statler on October 01, 2009, 01:27:15 PM
Sceduled to drop my S4Rs off at DucPond Motosports in Winchester, VA on Saturday, for them to install my recently arrived replacement tank.

Donnie got mine in about a month-ish if I remember correctly.     Installed it while my Dad and I ate lunch across the street.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Uncle Mofo on October 01, 2009, 02:07:55 PM
How long did it take?
Just over 1 hr


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on October 01, 2009, 02:38:16 PM
Bufala!  Not to install it!


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Uncle Mofo on October 01, 2009, 09:57:18 PM
Bufala!  Not to install it!
Mozzarella di bufala?  ;D


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Nekkid Tim on October 02, 2009, 06:28:04 AM
How long did it take?

About four weeks after the inspection for Ducati to authorize the replacement, and then about three weeks for the replacement tank to arrive.

I would love to have them install the tank while I wait, but I have to work tomorrow, and can't hang around, even if they were willing to do it first thing in the morning.   So I'll have to make two round trips....  :-(  Tim


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: He Man on October 02, 2009, 04:05:53 PM
:(  im gotta stop checking this thread.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Satellite smithy on October 02, 2009, 05:05:48 PM
:(  im gotta stop checking this thread.

I just got my new tank after one week and I don't even have a bike.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Paegelow on October 02, 2009, 06:16:31 PM
I finally got my bike back with the new tank today.  It's so small!!!

I was looking around at the used bikes at the dealer while I was there, and every single monster with a plastic tank had the same problem too!

There was also hardly anyone there, so I sat on the Desmosedici in the corner for a minute while no one was looking, and made motorbike sounds  [leo]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on October 02, 2009, 06:24:02 PM
I finally got my bike back with the new tank today.  It's so small!!!

I was looking around at the used bikes at the dealer while I was there, and every single monster with a plastic tank had the same problem too!

they were selling used bikes with expanded tanks??


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: He Man on October 03, 2009, 12:29:24 PM
You know. the tank expansion thing, could begin to explain why i have been getting 3.2-3.5 gallons per fill up. lol
I just got my new tank after one week and I don't even have a bike.


 >:(


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: somegirl on October 03, 2009, 06:24:15 PM
>:(

He was just messin' with ya. ;)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Paegelow on October 04, 2009, 05:00:27 AM
they were selling used bikes with expanded tanks??

Yup, literally every used plastic-tank monster had it.  At least 4 that I can remember! :o


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Satellite smithy on October 04, 2009, 11:18:20 AM
Yup, literally every used plastic-tank monster had it.  At least 4 that I can remember! :o

Do they do test rides and is there another dealer nearby?

1) Test ride one, to the other dealer
2) Ask for a new tank, let them order it
3) When it comes in, bring test bike back, let them swap it in
4) Swap tanks back, return bike from test ride
5) Sell brand new tank on ebay
6) Profit!  :D


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Paegelow on October 04, 2009, 12:03:00 PM
That's a pretty good idea!  Except a) there are no other dealers around, and b) this dealer is going out of business and will be gone before the new tank would come in!  :(


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on October 04, 2009, 12:24:39 PM
Moreover the other dealer has to do the swap and send the tank back to DNA.  I asked to keep it and was told "hell no"

I asked to just take a core sample and same.  You can't have the old tank.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: scduc on October 04, 2009, 04:49:09 PM
Moreover the other dealer has to do the swap and send the tank back to DNA.  I asked to keep it and was told "hell no"

I asked to just take a core sample and same.  You can't have the old tank.
I have never heard of warranty work being done where the customer is allowed to keep the old parts. I dont think they even let you look at them after they have been removed.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on October 04, 2009, 05:45:09 PM
I have never heard of warranty work being done where the customer is allowed to keep the old parts. I dont think they even let you look at them after they have been removed.

Most of these bikes are out of warranty.  Even the emissions warranty expires at 18k miles, so it's not technically a warranty job for most ppl. 

I wanted some of the material to have it checked out by a lab.  It would be easy enough to determine if ethanol has penetrated.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: vw151 on October 05, 2009, 08:33:35 AM
What are the measurements supposed to be and what were yours?   How do you measure this?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on October 05, 2009, 08:49:29 AM
What are the measurements supposed to be and what were yours?   How do you measure this?

no one has measured the tank, most people go by the location of the rubber mounts on the bottom of the tank, the distance between the latch and front of the tank and the presence of rippling or bulging.

the rubber mounts are supposed to sit directly on the frame.  mine were sitting almost 3/4 inch outside the frame.  they are upside-down U shaped to cup the frame from above and my tank had expanded such that they did not make direct contact at all.

the front latch should open and close easily.  it is designed to be tension locked down and to close without effort.  mine was so bad, the latch sat on top of the keyswitch and actually latching it would require the keyswitch to move forward about half an inch (not a possibility) or the tank to move back (mine was as far back as designed).

lastly, there should be no rippling or bulging on the sides of the tank.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: vw151 on October 05, 2009, 09:16:06 AM
I just noticed the other day that I have a dimple in the tank kinda near the logo and I have wear marks from the ignition rubbing the tank paint.  Those weren't there earlier this year.  I'll have to look for this other stuff too.  I just sent an email in to my buddy at ducati Indy.  We'll see what's up and what they've seen.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: He Man on October 05, 2009, 10:06:58 AM
I just noticed the other day that I have a dimple in the tank kinda near the logo and I have wear marks from the ignition rubbing the tank paint.  Those weren't there earlier this year.  I'll have to look for this other stuff too.  I just sent an email in to my buddy at ducati Indy.  We'll see what's up and what they've seen.

God help me if you get your tank before I do. :/


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: vw151 on October 05, 2009, 11:11:17 AM
God help me if you get your tank before I do. :/

Are you trying to get a tank through ducati indy?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on October 05, 2009, 11:50:04 AM
God help me if you get your tank before I do. :/

what color tank are you getting?  i've heard now that the silver/black and gloss black tanks are coming slow.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: He Man on October 05, 2009, 12:44:22 PM
I dont know. They never told me what color i'm getting. alls i knows is, im authorized for a tank...so they say. I emailed him and asked him if he could get me another color like red.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on October 05, 2009, 04:45:33 PM
I dont know. They never told me what color i'm getting. alls i knows is, im authorized for a tank...so they say. I emailed him and asked him if he could get me another color like red.

From what I understand, yes, dealers were allowing ppl to get whatever color they wanted. 

Everyone should get something other than yellow, even if they have a yellow bike.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: He Man on October 05, 2009, 07:10:21 PM
From what I understand, yes, dealers were allowing ppl to get whatever color they wanted. 

Everyone should get something other than yellow, even if they have a yellow bike.

so that means im not going to get the color i want? (until dec 31...im considering myself to still ahve bad luck lol)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: vw151 on October 06, 2009, 03:42:33 AM
I can wait, so long as my current tank keeps working. 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: DCXCV on October 06, 2009, 06:12:17 AM
what color tank are you getting?  i've heard now that the silver/black and gloss black tanks are coming slow.

I got my gloss black in <30 days


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: vw151 on October 06, 2009, 09:11:03 AM
A friend showed me this place.  Not that I want to spend money on my own tank but it'd be nice if ducati just gave us aluminum tanks

http://www.moto-works.jp/beater/index.html#d9 (http://www.moto-works.jp/beater/index.html#d9)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: He Man on October 06, 2009, 11:26:39 AM
jizzzzzzzz

I LOVE aluminum tanks. oddly, ive dropped my bike twice and the aluminum never dented even with the handle bar smack right into it. Must of gotten lucky. But they are awesome tanks. wish i still had it.  :-[


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: J.P. on October 07, 2009, 07:44:05 AM
I read that Al causes problems in an uncoated tank as well.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on October 07, 2009, 09:13:35 AM
I read that Al causes problems in an uncoated tank as well.

uncoated?  in what manner?

if it is properly anodized, it should be impervious to any solvents, including gasoline, ethanol, etc.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Nekkid Tim on October 07, 2009, 09:25:33 AM
A friend showed me this place.  Not that I want to spend money on my own tank but it'd be nice if ducati just gave us aluminum tanks

http://www.moto-works.jp/beater/index.html#d9 (http://www.moto-works.jp/beater/index.html#d9)

Thanks for the link.  I have an e-mail in to see if the fuel injected version of the tank fits the testastretta models or not.   I'd love to get one of these, have DucPainter paint it in oem colors and striping and lettering, and then put my oem replacement tank on the shelf until/if I sell the bike.   I honestly don't expect the oem replacement tanks to last any longer or perform any differently than the ones they are replacing.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on October 07, 2009, 09:28:45 AM
Thanks for the link.  I have an e-mail in to see if the fuel injected version of the tank fits the testastretta models or not.   I'd love to get one of these, have DucPainter paint it in oem colors and striping and lettering, and then put my oem replacement tank on the shelf until/if I sell the bike.   I honestly don't expect the oem replacement tanks to last any longer or perform any differently than the ones they are replacing.

that sounds cool.. maybe leave one stripe unpainted to show the metal underneath..


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: J.P. on October 07, 2009, 11:18:21 AM
or anodize the whole thing.
Got a kid in private school, so the last thing I'll be doing is forking over 2k+ for a new tank.  :(
I hope the new ones are better- anybody heard of a replacement going bad yet?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: He Man on October 07, 2009, 04:37:59 PM
why would you buy an aluminum tank and paint over it? Sorry but its like getting a hot gf and covering her up while you hit that.

here was my RR Aluminum Tank polished and clear coated

(http://kuixihe.com/zenphoto/zp-core/moto/IMG_3066.JPG.php?z&p=full-image)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: somegirl on October 07, 2009, 05:30:41 PM
Took a while to show up, but my tank is now definitely showing signs of expansion. :( :(

Just submitted my request to join the email list.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on October 07, 2009, 05:55:15 PM
Took a while to show up, but my tank is now definitely showing signs of expansion. :( :(

Just submitted my request to join the email list.

how many miles do you have on the bike and year?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: somegirl on October 07, 2009, 05:57:55 PM
how many miles do you have on the bike and year?

2007 M695

21,500 miles


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: wbeck257 on October 09, 2009, 03:23:05 AM
Well, mine start to swell up.

Took it to Atlanta Motorworld, and they emailed Ducati.
Got word yesterday that a new tank is on the way and should be here in 9 - 20 days.

So that turned out a lot better than I thought it would.

2006 S2R1000
13,000 miles.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: angler on October 09, 2009, 05:42:10 AM
Just heard back from Nathan at DucPond.  My tank should be in today, only 36 days from ordering.  I should have it installed in the next couple of weeks.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on October 09, 2009, 06:41:23 AM
Pics of my tank expansion (click for bigger images)


Latch will not close at all.  The latch should be approximately 10-15mm from the keyswitch when closed.
(http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l309/ducatiz/DML/th_CIMG0021.jpg) (http://s99.photobucket.com/albums/l309/ducatiz/DML/CIMG0021.jpg)(http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l309/ducatiz/DML/th_CIMG0023.jpg) (http://s99.photobucket.com/albums/l309/ducatiz/DML/CIMG0023.jpg)

These are the rubber U bumpers.  They are supposed to sit directly on the frame.
(http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l309/ducatiz/DML/th_CIMG0025.jpg) (http://s99.photobucket.com/albums/l309/ducatiz/DML/CIMG0025.jpg)(http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l309/ducatiz/DML/th_CIMG0026.jpg) (http://s99.photobucket.com/albums/l309/ducatiz/DML/CIMG0026.jpg)

Side Rippling:
(http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l309/ducatiz/DML/th_CIMG0027.jpg) (http://s99.photobucket.com/albums/l309/ducatiz/DML/CIMG0027.jpg)(http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l309/ducatiz/DML/th_CIMG0028.jpg) (http://s99.photobucket.com/albums/l309/ducatiz/DML/CIMG0028.jpg)(http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l309/ducatiz/DML/th_CIMG0029.jpg) (http://s99.photobucket.com/albums/l309/ducatiz/DML/CIMG0029.jpg)

Full view -- doesn't look like any problem at all from a distance.
(http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l309/ducatiz/DML/th_CIMG0032.jpg) (http://s99.photobucket.com/albums/l309/ducatiz/DML/CIMG0032.jpg)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: He Man on October 09, 2009, 06:49:48 AM
Can you guys post up what color tanks you are receiving?

I know someone who has  personal relationship with the dealer since hes bought 2 bikes from them, and im going to ask him to re-ask for me. I already emailed the guy about getting a red tank, and he wont respond, cant seem to get through on the phone, and i dont feel like showing up and having some random lady give me a parking ticket.

 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: J.P. on October 09, 2009, 08:26:46 AM
Latest tally on complaints filed:
(for plastic tank monsters)

'05- 6
'06- 6
'07- 12
'08- 1

The only difference from my last tally on Sept 10, one month ago, was only 3 additional files for '07 guys.
Nobody else has a problem.



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on October 09, 2009, 09:49:56 AM
Latest tally on complaints filed:
(for plastic tank monsters)

'05- 6
'06- 6
'07- 12
'08- 1

The only difference from my last tally on Sept 10, one month ago, was only 3 additional files for '07 guys.
Nobody else has a problem.



i have 82 ppl on the mailing list, it's kind of silly.   i think ppl are afraid that the NHTSA will tell on them to Ducati and they won't get their tank replaced -- that's all I can figure..


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Uncle Mofo on October 09, 2009, 09:53:46 AM
I filed, enlisted ;) complained and got my tank replaced.
 People file your complaint with the NHTSA or in two years we'll be screwed again...


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: angler on October 09, 2009, 11:11:19 AM
Can you guys post up what color tanks you are receiving?

I know someone who has  personal relationship with the dealer since hes bought 2 bikes from them, and im going to ask him to re-ask for me. I already emailed the guy about getting a red tank, and he wont respond, cant seem to get through on the phone, and i dont feel like showing up and having some random lady give me a parking ticket.

 

Dark - DucPond those were backordered but could have got me a different color sooner.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: He Man on October 11, 2009, 07:43:40 AM
I reemailed my dealer about getting a red tank since i got no response.

My first email (which was the pics and vin #) were sent on July 16.

A response was given July 18th
Quote
"I sent in the form with your info and am waiting on hearing back from DNA regarding your issue, once I do I will inform you of what we can do"

after two emails asking for an update on August 8th...
Quote
"the tank is on order but unfortunately its not available and its coming to be august when Ducati Motor Holdings almost completely close for the month except for a skeleton crew, but let me see if I can get some sort of eta"

Another two emails on Sept 26.
Quote
"Im sorry I havent been able to get back to you I've been out for a bit, unfortunately, the tank is still not in and its been over 2 months, everytime I process an availability for the tank it comes up as not available and will give a a backorder date, when I've contacted DNA they cannot give me a eta for the tank, I will stay on top of it for you and the minute I get any news I'll get back in contact with you."

So depending on how you look at it, its been 3-4 months. Still no tank.

I think I'm the only one who is taking this long. Part of the reason why I think they are just blowing smoke up my ass. Maybe they are reading this. But even then, I kept quiet for 2 months waiting patiently. This is just getting ridiculous. :(


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on October 11, 2009, 08:58:57 AM
Did they say your new tank has been approved?  if so, I would just sit back.  Everything in those emails sounds about right and recently there have been more people getting tanks replaced. 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: scduc on October 11, 2009, 11:21:30 AM
He Man,  Sounds to me like they are hosing you. My dealer knew the ETA after one week. Now I received mine in extra short time, due to some unforeseen circumstances. I would think that they would be able to give you some sort of realistic date.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: He Man on October 11, 2009, 03:33:17 PM
Did they say your new tank has been approved?  if so, I would just sit back.  Everything in those emails sounds about right and recently there have been more people getting tanks replaced. 

whatever is in that email is what they sent me. It sounds like they did when he said the tank is on order.

i dont get why a dealer would do this. wouldnt it be easier to just lie and say no we wont?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: cdv478 on October 12, 2009, 05:24:17 PM

[/quote]i dont get why a dealer would do this. wouldnt it be easier to just lie and say no we wont?
[/quote]

That's what my dealer did. I thought he would be sympathetic since he owns an S2R, but he said he'd never heard of the problem and Ducati wouldn't warranty my tank. My bike was still in the 2 year warranty window at that time.

Afterward, I signed up on the list and gave all my info, filed an NHTSA complaint, and still am confident it will work out for the best. My tank is still growing. I had aspired to buy an '07-'08 S4RS, but I noticed the tank issue after I got the bike back from a 4 month vacation at a dealer that couldn't figure out it had a bad wiring harness. The tank problem presented itself at 11,700 miles and 23 months from delivery.

My trust in not only the dealer but DNA has been destroyed, but I was able to fix the underlying problems I'd encounter with an S4RS by buying a new KTM Super Duke R instead. All Ducati would have had to do was fix my tank and I'd have bought a leftover new S4RS. Instead, I'm impressed with how I've been treated by KTM, and the SDR is amazingly fun, so it's worked out very nicely.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: He Man on October 12, 2009, 05:54:20 PM
That sounds like a pretty bad example. I hope my situation isnt like yours...

in a lighter note, i filled up 3.4gallons today. Whats that say about how expanded my tank is?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: cduarte on October 13, 2009, 06:50:12 AM
i dont get why a dealer would do this. wouldnt it be easier to just lie and say no we wont?


That's what my dealer did. I thought he would be sympathetic since he owns an S2R, but he said he'd never heard of the problem and Ducati wouldn't warranty my tank. My bike was still in the 2 year warranty window at that time.

Afterward, I signed up on the list and gave all my info, filed an NHTSA complaint, and still am confident it will work out for the best. My tank is still growing. I had aspired to buy an '07-'08 S4RS, but I noticed the tank issue after I got the bike back from a 4 month vacation at a dealer that couldn't figure out it had a bad wiring harness. The tank problem presented itself at 11,700 miles and 23 months from delivery.

My trust in not only the dealer but DNA has been destroyed, but I was able to fix the underlying problems I'd encounter with an S4RS by buying a new KTM Super Duke R instead. All Ducati would have had to do was fix my tank and I'd have bought a leftover new S4RS. Instead, I'm impressed with how I've been treated by KTM, and the SDR is amazingly fun, so it's worked out very nicely.

I'd go to another dealership. I went to one that I'd never been to before, and they took great care of me. I bought my bike used, and had never had any contact with this dealership before, and again, I got my tank in 10 days.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: He Man on October 13, 2009, 11:41:28 AM
Looks like i probably wont get  a new color tank, a new tank , anything. lol

Quote
I will try to get a response from someone in DNA about your request but I don't think that they will do that, but hey it doesn't hurt to ask.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: DCXCV on October 14, 2009, 01:30:45 PM
Looks like i probably wont get  a new color tank, a new tank , anything. lol


Are there any other dealers close enough that can help you?  Your situation sounds like just dealer BS - blaming DNA is just their scapegoat.  DNA and my dealer came through with my tank (and quite a few others here) in less than a month (during the time you have been waiting). 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: He Man on October 14, 2009, 03:35:29 PM
There are. But if its submitted at one place, the other place would know wouldnt they?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: cduarte on October 14, 2009, 03:59:35 PM
There are. But if its submitted at one place, the other place would know wouldnt they?

why would that matter? You're the customer.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: He Man on October 14, 2009, 04:00:37 PM
why would that matter? You're the customer.

because the warranty request "was" already been submited....


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: DCXCV on October 15, 2009, 06:22:09 AM
because the warranty request "was" already been submited....

Doesn't hurt to ask again.  All they can do is say no.  Worth at least a call to another shop to explain the situation and bad service and ask if they can do anything and maybe gain a new customer in the process.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Nekkid Tim on October 16, 2009, 08:06:31 AM
Update:   Yesterday I picked up my bike from DucPond with the replacement tank installed.  There is once again space between the tank and the handlebar switchgear and the ignition lock.

For how long, who knows????

Tm


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Greg on October 17, 2009, 01:57:11 PM
I finally get around to visiting the dealer today and here is how it goes. First off, as I pull up I"m not getting a good feeling as normally there are quite a few Ducs parked outside, but all I see is a single older model red Monster. Outside are parked all kinds of used sports cars, ranging from a Delorean to Vipers and Porsches. Inside it gets worse, where normally there are lots of new Ducs on display, as well as MV Augustas and other bikes, there is now not a single bike to be seen. Instead there are more used cars, some very nice models including a Ferrari. The counter man who has seen me drive up, steps up to the counter to assist me...

Counter man: Hi there, how can I help you.

Me: Uhh... you still service Ducati's right?

Counter man: Yeah sure, the used car guys took over the show room though. Can I help you?

Me: Yeah I'm having trouble with my gas
tank, it seems to have expanded, have you heard of anything like that before?

Counter man: Oh yeah the gas tanks are a warranty item, I'll go ahead and order you one.

Me: Uhh... OK.... Thanks


He didn't even go outside and look at the bike, just took the VIN # and address off my insurance card and asked for a contact number and said they would call me in about a week.



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Blake on October 19, 2009, 08:54:13 PM
Thanks for the pics Ducatiz...I decided to look at mine right now and it has all three conditions that you showed in your pics.
I just signed up, hopefully I can still get it rectified.  I never really noticed anything except the rubber bushings hung over the frame tubes way too far.  I figured it was normal. 

Later

p.s.  It's an '05 S2R 800, red w/ white stripe, 15k miles.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: He Man on October 20, 2009, 11:48:35 AM
Let us know if you get a red tank... im still waiting for mine. its been 4 months.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Charlief on October 20, 2009, 04:57:21 PM
WOW...

I don't know why I never read this thread.  I quickly scanned it and ran out to the garage.  My tank shows all the signs.  The latch is right up against the ignition/the bottom frame bumpers are 1/2" past the frame!

My bike is an 05 with about 6K miles

I'll call my dealer tomorrow and see what can be done.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Blake on October 20, 2009, 09:29:16 PM
You've been waiting four months for a red tank?????  Have they explained why it's taking so long? 
Truth be told I'm really ready to trade it in for an FZ1.  My commute is making the Monster less fun.
I guess if Ducati puts me on the back burner then I won't be too worried since I'm looking to make a trade
fairly soon.

Later


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: He Man on October 21, 2009, 10:24:39 AM
i waited 3 months for a black or silver tank. Red seems to be very common, so i said ill take a red tank too. they said they would try 2 weeks ago. no word back from them.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: somegirl on October 22, 2009, 12:53:38 PM
I finally had a chance to take my bike to the dealer.

He said not to get my hopes up as I am above the mileage for the emissions warranty :( but he will submit it anyway.  I should find out in about a week.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Charlief on October 24, 2009, 03:10:05 AM
I also went to my dealer yesterday. He took a few pictures and noted my mileage. I left but went back into the showroom a few minutes later to check out the new shirts and he was already at the computer up loading my pictures.  He told ne that "most" monster tanks have been covered.   Crossing my fingers!!


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Nekkid Tim on October 24, 2009, 07:43:04 AM
I finally had a chance to take my bike to the dealer.

He said not to get my hopes up as I am above the mileage for the emissions warranty :( but he will submit it anyway.  I should find out in about a week.

I hope you will still post a complaint with the NHTSA on safety grounds.  The ignition switch housing wearing through the tank until there is a fuel leak directly above the engine should be something an agency like the NHTSA OUGHT to be interested in!

Tim


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: somegirl on October 24, 2009, 01:34:29 PM
I hope you will still post a complaint with the NHTSA on safety grounds.  The ignition switch housing wearing through the tank until there is a fuel leak directly above the engine should be something an agency like the NHTSA OUGHT to be interested in!

I absolutely will after I get the word back from the dealer. [thumbsup]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: DCXCV on October 26, 2009, 12:24:49 PM
I finally had a chance to take my bike to the dealer.

He said not to get my hopes up as I am above the mileage for the emissions warranty :( but he will submit it anyway.  I should find out in about a week.

Got mine replaced at 30k - though I was told by the dealer that it was something of a gift and went through because the AZ rep is cool.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on October 26, 2009, 05:33:29 PM
I got word from Ducpond that my tank came in last week.  That's right at a month for an Acid Yellow tank.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Benjamin5150 on October 27, 2009, 07:15:46 AM
Ducpond just got mine as well.   [thumbsup]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on October 27, 2009, 09:49:22 AM
Ducpond just got mine as well.   [thumbsup]

what color and how long did you wait?



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Benjamin5150 on October 28, 2009, 06:16:26 AM
It's a Dark...it's been maybe 4-6 weeks?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: duccarlos on November 02, 2009, 07:02:18 AM
I kinda liked the wider tank, but it was an issue on the track. I need to go to the new dealer and explain the whole thing.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: 1d10t on November 05, 2009, 07:44:29 AM
Okay I must say, huge Props to Moto Dave and his crew at EastSide Moto Sports! I have never had such exceptional service from any dealership, car or motorcycle!   

Not only did Dave order my tank for replacement and go to bat for me, my 2006 is a year out of warranty, he used his personal vehicle to get me to and from my office. That's service! I will now only go to ESM for all services, parts and new bikes.

Dave made it so convenient to get warrantied, I didn't even have to bring my bike into the shop until the tank arrived. Way to set the high bar!

Now I have a shiny new tank and the reassurance there will not be any leaks. Oh I can latch the tank now!!! It's the simple things in life that keep me happy. 

Man, all I have to say is THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU!!!!


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: TobyDanger on November 05, 2009, 05:22:11 PM
Hmm if it expands enough, think maybe I can get 200 miles on one tank?

Noticed a "ripple" in my left knee pocket a few weeks ago... nothing big, just that the left and right pocket weren't really the same.  Then this weekend I went to lift the tank to plug in the tender (damn cold, rainy PNW winters) and saw the right frame stay was about half way outside the frame, and the latch was almost touching the ignition.  Looks like a trip to DucSea soon.

Just signed up for the Yahoo group.

07 S2R800


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: He Man on November 07, 2009, 04:19:05 PM
Hmm if it expands enough, think maybe I can get 200 miles on one tank?

not 200. more like 150-160.

mine officially holds 3.4 gallons now.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on November 07, 2009, 05:00:14 PM
not 200. more like 150-160.

mine officially holds 3.4 gallons now.

interesting, i sort of assumed the material would expand in all directions which would make the volume smaller not larger.

if the volume is increasing and the outside is as well, then the tank wall is getting thinner..

NOT GOOD!


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: He Man on November 08, 2009, 04:52:29 PM
NOT GOOD!

Im fine with that. if my tank blows up ill just sue Ducati for a new bike because they are taking so long to get me a new tank. ( i still havent gotten one)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: J.P. on November 09, 2009, 04:16:57 AM
Im fine with that. if my tank blows up ill just sue Ducati for a new bike because they are taking so long to get me a new tank. ( i still havent gotten one)

If it blows while you're on it... we'll have to sue them for you.

Someone on the sport classic board mentioned a recall by Duc for those who have problems- this isn't a recall. Anyone hear reassurances that the problem is fixed?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: angler on November 09, 2009, 04:21:46 AM
If it blows while you're on it... we'll have to sue them for you.

Someone on the sport classic board mentioned a recall by Duc for those who have problems- this isn't a recall. Anyone hear reassurances that the problem is fixed?

I got my new tank over the weekend.  No reassurances.

I can't believe how small the new tank is.....I can see so much more frame around ignition key area.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: J.P. on November 09, 2009, 08:17:03 AM
Guess I gotta pull the trigger too. Would like to be able to lock the steering again. Or see my battery.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Charlief on November 11, 2009, 07:14:49 AM
UPDATE

I went to the dealer on October 23rd to have pics taken.  I got an email today saying my tank is in!!!!  Less than 2.5 weeks!!!

My dealer rocks!!

Eastern Cycle in Beverly, MA


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: He Man on November 11, 2009, 09:48:45 AM
alright this is pretty make the beast with two backsed up. I emailed the dealer 1 last time. If they dont want to cooperate, ill just contact DNA and ask them who i can go to because thats 2/4 local dealers who arent willing to change my tank out for me.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: cduarte on November 12, 2009, 04:56:37 AM
alright this is pretty make the beast with two backsed up. I emailed the dealer 1 last time. If they dont want to cooperate, ill just contact DNA and ask them who i can go to because thats 2/4 local dealers who arent willing to change my tank out for me.

I think you just like being a victim... want my spare tank?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: somegirl on November 12, 2009, 05:04:31 AM
My dealer is still waiting to hear from Ducati, he says he's been bugging them. :-\


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: He Man on November 12, 2009, 07:37:05 AM
My dealer is still waiting to hear from Ducati, he says he's been bugging them. :-\

thats the same thing mine said.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Charlief on November 12, 2009, 02:57:08 PM
I dropped my bike off today.

My tank was sitting in a box waiting for me!  There was another tank with mine waiting install for a S2R1000.... I was told.

I'm having my 12K service done also...so come spring I'll be ready to roll.

I'm not sure why others are having problems getting tanks.  What kind of relationship do you have with your dealer?  Get services done there?  I do all the easy stuff myself (oil changes, mods, and some other things) but leave the valve adjustments/belt changes for the dealer.  I also buy my oil/filter from the dealer.  ya I know I pay a little more but what $10 more?  They know me and when problems arise they get handled promptly.


Just my .02







Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: angler on November 13, 2009, 03:13:32 AM
I had two very different experiences.  I called Speed's, which is closer to me than DucPond, and they couldn't be bothered.  Acted like they never heard of the problem the first time I called and then the second told me I had to contact Ducati first.  That didn't work as Ducati told me it was something the dealer had to do. 

I called DucPond and they immediately told me to take pictures and email them to their parts mgr.  I did that and within a day or two he called me and said I had a good case but would need to see the bike in person.  One look and 4 weeks +/- later I had a new tank.  Would have been faster except for a backorder on dark tanks.

To that point I had spent roughly equal amounts at both shops. 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: red baron on November 14, 2009, 06:49:02 PM
I guess I'll chime in here now.

So today I stop at the dealer (GP in San Diego), and the service mgr is talking to me while the tech is sorting out some front suspension issues. He mentions the tank thing and we're looking at mine and I show him a few minor issues and he orders a new one for me. ;D


We'll see how long before it shows up.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: aaronb on November 20, 2009, 05:11:57 PM
looks like i am going to have to do this soon, my tank is now rubbing the ignition on the right side.  if only this would have happened sooner, my local dealer closed their doors three weeks ago.  :(


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Satellite smithy on November 21, 2009, 06:41:24 AM
looks like i am going to have to do this soon, my tank is now rubbing the ignition on the right side.  if only this would have happened sooner, my local dealer closed their doors three weeks ago.  :(

Look at it the other horrible way.

Say you went in and got them to order you a new tank.

Then they closed.

So you go to another shop, which gets their request from DNA denied, as one has already been ordered for you.



You know it could happen.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: He Man on November 21, 2009, 09:58:34 AM
Look at it the other horrible way.

Say you went in and got them to order you a new tank.

Then they closed.

So you go to another shop, which gets their request from DNA denied, as one has already been ordered for you.



You know it could happen.

that would be funny if it happened to someone else. lol


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Satellite smithy on November 21, 2009, 03:20:30 PM
that would be funny if it happened to someone else. lol

We all know it's going to happen to you. Your dealer is probably closing their doors right now, with your replacement tank listed on ebay.  :-*


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Charlief on November 22, 2009, 05:00:57 AM
Picked up my bike yesterday with my new shiney tank installed. 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: He Man on November 22, 2009, 01:28:20 PM
10 days. wtf.

i emailed DNA. they said they will look into it. Im not holding my breath. I alreayd have a steel tank replacement i bought 2 months ago.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ghosthound on November 24, 2009, 10:31:16 AM
ahhhh... i bought my monster used and its an 05 model... i have a feeling the purchase date is past 5 years now... i guess im SOL.  [bang]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: angler on November 24, 2009, 10:38:29 AM
ahhhh... i bought my monster used and its an 05 model... i have a feeling the purchase date is past 5 years now... i guess im SOL.  [bang]

My bike was an '05 and I just got a warranty last month.  I would still contact your dealer.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ghosthound on November 24, 2009, 10:59:37 AM
...hmmm. Im gonna head to the dealer right after work! I gotta check the paperwork to see when it was purchased anyway.. haha hope it works!!  [bow_down]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Charlief on November 24, 2009, 11:24:15 AM
Mine is an 05


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ghosthound on November 25, 2009, 06:37:50 AM
went to the dealer yesterday, service manage looked at the tank, took some pix, and sent the request in for the new tank.

While there, i saw a tricolor monster tank that was just replaced as well...


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: memonstro on November 28, 2009, 06:46:14 AM
I have a 2007 Sport Classic. My dealer just ordered my second replacement tank yesterday.(11-28-09). My first tank was replaced in April of 09. That tank was shimmed this summer. Nothing offical from Ducati about if they've solved the problem or not yet. My dealer tells me that the tanks are covered for at least 5 years through the emmisions warranty. I haven't had any problems yet getting mine replaced.
There is a group going through PAKBIKES.net that are going to have their tanks sealed using Caswell Tank Seal. I waiting to see how this turns out.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Charlief on November 29, 2009, 03:22:24 AM
.
There is a group going through PAKBIKES.net that are going to have their tanks sealed using Caswell Tank Seal. I waiting to see how this turns out.

I was just thinking of this the other day.  Like when you repair a rusted tank with POR 15 or something like that....  I just don't know if the product sticks to the plastic/nylon interior.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducpainter on November 29, 2009, 03:32:39 AM
I was just thinking of this the other day.  Like when you repair a rusted tank with POR 15 or something like that....  I just don't know if the product sticks to the plastic/nylon interior.
I don't believe either product will in the long run.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: cduarte on November 29, 2009, 01:25:24 PM
10 days. wtf.

i emailed DNA. they said they will look into it. Im not holding my breath. I alreayd have a steel tank replacement i bought 2 months ago.

emailing is a waste of time. Use the telephone and start calling regularly...


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on November 29, 2009, 01:52:22 PM
Who has had an 05 "acid yellow" tank replaced?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: J.P. on November 29, 2009, 02:22:25 PM
I have a 2007 Sport Classic. My dealer just ordered my second replacement tank yesterday.(11-28-09). My first tank was replaced in April of 09. That tank was shimmed this summer. Nothing offical from Ducati about if they've solved the problem or not yet. My dealer tells me that the tanks are covered for at least 5 years through the emmisions warranty. I haven't had any problems yet getting mine replaced.
There is a group going through PAKBIKES.net that are going to have their tanks sealed using Caswell Tank Seal. I waiting to see how this turns out.

So after 5 years, everybody is screwed?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on November 30, 2009, 03:22:36 AM
So after 5 years, everybody is screwed?

Not necessarily. 

The emissions warranty only goes to 5 years or 18,xxx miles, whichever happens first anyhow, and plenty of folks with much more than 18k miles are getting replacements.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Nekkid Tim on November 30, 2009, 06:42:54 AM
Not necessarily. 

The emissions warranty only goes to 5 years or 18,xxx miles, whichever happens first anyhow, and plenty of folks with much more than 18k miles are getting replacements.

I think the real problem comes 7,8,9,10 years from now when people have bikes with warped, expanded, ill-fitting, abraded, rubbing, possible leaking fuel tanks that were replaced under warranty (or maybe once under warranty, once under good-will, and once - or more - at their own expense), and Ducati - corporately speaking - has "moved on."

What then?   Our bikes are unrideable, unsellable paperweights?   Or those who want to keep them and soldier on, buy hand-beaten alloy replacement tanks?  This is not an academic question.  I  have a 10-year-old Ducate 750SS that I ride regularly now, and I can actually entertain the notion that in seven years, I'll still want to be riding my 2007 S4Rs.... fuel tank permitting!

The biggest question remains in my mind ---- why isn't Ducati FIXING this problem rather than using the short-term bandaid of replacing defective tanks with identical, soon-to-be defective tanks?

Maybe we need to join with other Ducati enthusiast forums to drive a national awareness campaign wrt the NHTSA complaint process that has been so well-documented here.  It seems to me at this point that the only way Ducati is going to alter their response to this problem is if the regulatory agencies force them to.

Tim, Herndon, VA


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on November 30, 2009, 06:47:18 AM
I think the real problem comes 7,8,9,10 years from now when people have bikes with warped, expanded, ill-fitting, abraded, rubbing, possible leaking fuel tanks that were replaced under warranty (or maybe once under warranty, once under good-will, and once - or more - at their own expense), and Ducati - corporately speaking - has "moved on."

What then?   Our bikes are unrideable, unsellable paperweights?   Or those who want to keep them and soldier on, buy hand-beaten alloy replacement tanks?  This is not an academic question.  I  have a 10-year-old Ducate 750SS that I ride regularly now, and I can actually entertain the notion that in seven years, I'll still want to be riding my 2007 S4Rs.... fuel tank permitting!

The biggest question remains in my mind ---- why isn't Ducati FIXING this problem rather than using the short-term bandaid of replacing defective tanks with identical, soon-to-be defective tanks?

Maybe we need to join with other Ducati enthusiast forums to drive a national awareness campaign wrt the NHTSA complaint process that has been so well-documented here.  It seems to me at this point that the only way Ducati is going to alter their response to this problem is if the regulatory agencies force them to.

Tim, Herndon, VA

I have no reason to think they are not trying to fix the tanks properly.

All the issues you raise are real problems.  Moreover, the tanks are identical to the ones used on bikes in Europe, and the EU has approved ethanol to be used in gasoline so it will be creeping into various markets soon.  Down the road, maybe 5-7 years from now, all EU gasoline will have 5-10% ethanol, just like in the USA -- then another 1-2 years, tanks will start expanding.

Ducati is aware of the problem, and I am SURE they have had some chemists look into what caused it -- and if the problem really is ethanol, then they can see the writing on the wall if they do not fix the tanks -- EVERY single owner of an 05-current model Monster, Sport Classic and Multistrada will become a Ducati-hater, and then there will be HUGE publicity.

This isn't the same as the crack-frame problem on the 95-97 900ss or the weak stud problem, because it will eventually affect ~every single~ bike made that is used in an ethanol-fuel market.

I am sure Ducati is trying to fix it, that being said, I wish they would issue a statement on the problem.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Nekkid Tim on November 30, 2009, 07:47:27 AM
I have no reason to think they are not trying to fix the tanks properly.

All the issues you raise are real problems.  Moreover, the tanks are identical to the ones used on bikes in Europe, and the EU has approved ethanol to be used in gasoline so it will be creeping into various markets soon.  Down the road, maybe 5-7 years from now, all EU gasoline will have 5-10% ethanol, just like in the USA -- then another 1-2 years, tanks will start expanding.

Ducati is aware of the problem, and I am SURE they have had some chemists look into what caused it -- and if the problem really is ethanol, then they can see the writing on the wall if they do not fix the tanks -- EVERY single owner of an 05-current model Monster, Sport Classic and Multistrada will become a Ducati-hater, and then there will be HUGE publicity.

This isn't the same as the crack-frame problem on the 95-97 900ss or the weak stud problem, because it will eventually affect ~every single~ bike made that is used in an ethanol-fuel market.

I am sure Ducati is trying to fix it, that being said, I wish they would issue a statement on the problem.

I guess that to me (a Ducati enthusiast for 29 years and a Ducati owner for 23 years) the simple lack of such a statement or letter to owners (or even dealers) addressing the issue and stating a clear, concise, consistent corporate policy is evidence enough to convince me that they are not trying to fix the tank issue properly.  Whatever else they may be doing besides replacing the defective tanks with identical new examples of the same tanks - in some instances, for some owners - is not being conveyed or publicized in any forum of which I am aware.

My son rides a 1999 Triumph Speed Triple 955i that is equipped with the factory original plastic fuel tank from my old 1997 Triumph T509 Speed Triple; a 12-year-old plastic fuel tank that shows NONE of the issues we see with the Ducati fuel tanks in question, despite it having hundreds of tanks of ethanol-enhanced fuel through it.  Surely there is nothing too exotic or expensive preventing Ducati from simply switching to the type of plastic that Triumph has been using without problems for all these years?

I deeply appreciate your efforts on this.   I think we have the best organized group of Ducati owners out there for pursuing this, solely based on YOUR efforts to date.

I’m suggesting that perhaps we need to contact/reach out/include/incorporate/add other Ducati enthusiasts who may not be aware of this effort – beyond Monster owners, to include Sport Classic and GT owners as well.   Perhaps a website, perhaps via your Yahoo group; I don’t know.

If there’s something alse I can do to help you out - besides registering with the Yahoo Group, filing my NHTSA complaint, and petitioning for (and receiving) a replacement fuel tank, please let me know.

Tim


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on November 30, 2009, 07:57:47 AM
As far as I understand, Ducati doesn't make the tank, Ascerbis does.  I don't know who makes Triumph's tanks, but I am sure it isn't easy to rotomold another 10s of thousands of tanks for warranty replacement.

Somone at Ducati has better have a handle on this with Ascerbis.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Nekkid Tim on November 30, 2009, 09:51:30 AM
As far as I understand, Ducati doesn't make the tank, Ascerbis does.  I don't know who makes Triumph's tanks, but I am sure it isn't easy to rotomold another 10s of thousands of tanks for warranty replacement.

Somone at Ducati has better have a handle on this with Ascerbis.

When I said I thought that there was "nothing too exotic or expensive" (not "easy") about switching to a KNOWN, GOOD, supplier of fuel tanks, I certainly didn't mean to say or insinuate that it would be easy (or cheap, for that matter) to replace all the bad tanks Ducati has put on the market over the last five years.   

I meant that switching over to a new supplier, one with a proven record of producing plastic production fuel tanks that do NOT lose their shape, warp, "grow," or dimple and orange-peel in the first two, five, or even twelve years of ownership, should, imho, be neither too exotic nor too expensive for Ducati to implement.

Of course, I also thought that because Ducati could and has made trouble-free steel tanks by the tens of thousands (perhaps hundreds of thousands) since the 1960's, that perhaps they could or should investigate switching to that material for their current models and even consider it for replacement of bad plastic tanks.  And I vividly recall how impossible I was told something like that would be.

I would have guessed that with dozens of other motorcycle manufacturers selling ten times as many motorcycles (and more) than Ducati, and with Ducati themselves constantly coming out with reliable, well-crafted, nicely working complexities like dohc 4-V desmodromic cylinder heads and multi-adjustable traction control, etc, that either producing or contracting for the production of fuel tanks that don't have all the problems we're seeing wouldn't be so (apparently) impossible for them to accomplish.

It really does cast a shadow over my appreciation of the company, after all these years.  Just thinkin...

I've owned a 1967 250 Scrambler, 1967 250 Mach 1, 1973 750GT, 1975 860GT, 1977 900SS, 1985 [Cagiva] Alazzurra 650, 1992 750SS, 1992 851 Superbike, 1994 916, 2003 620 Sport, and a 2003 999 in the past, and currently own a 2000 750SS,  2003 800SS,  2005 800SS, and a 2006 1000SS in addition to my 2007 S4Rs, and the last is the only one I've had fuel tank problems with, and the only one that has had two sets of throttle bodies replaced under warranty because of TPS sensors going bad.

Maybe I should just sell the S4Rs now while it has a nice, new, replacement tank on it, and start looking in earnest for a 998R and a 750F1 Montjuich/SantaMonica/Laguna Seca to complete my Ducati dreams!

Tim


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on November 30, 2009, 10:15:21 AM

Of course, I also thought that because Ducati could and has made trouble-free steel tanks by the tens of thousands (perhaps hundreds of thousands) since the 1960's, that perhaps they could or should investigate switching to that material for their current models and even consider it for replacement of bad plastic tanks.  And I vividly recall how impossible I was told something like that would be.

unfortunately, ducati has had problems with their steel tanks too.. search for "hinge leak"


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Nekkid Tim on November 30, 2009, 10:28:27 AM
unfortunately, ducati has had problems with their steel tanks too.. search for "hinge leak"

Yeah, I'm aware of those.   That doesn't mean that they haven't produced hundreds of thousands of trouble-free steel tanks, though.   It doesn't necessarily mean that if they switched their plastic tanks to steel, that those steel tanks would have hinge (or any other) problems... if they've learned from the experience of the past.

The problem is, they are - at least as far the warranty replacement Monster tanks and both the current production and the warranty replacement Sport Classic tanks are concerned - still repeating the errors of the past.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Satellite smithy on November 30, 2009, 11:32:39 AM
The problem is, they are - at least as far the warranty replacement Monster tanks and both the current production and the warranty replacement Sport Classic tanks are concerned - still repeating the errors of the past.

It's not an overnight solution. This problem showed up when? 1-2 years down the road over a type of gas they may not even have had tested?


Okay-say you find a *new* formula for material-how long would you test it for? 6 months? I think not.


In the meantime, you have current motorcycle owners who have tanks that are not fitting the moto, canot be latched unlatched, hitting the bars on full lock, etc-do you have a better suggestion on what to do? All they can *currently* do is replace the tank to keep the current owner moderately happy, while it gets sorted.


I can see them not willing to make a public announcement until after some sort of fix has been devised.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ICON on November 30, 2009, 05:12:55 PM
I'm starting to notice some funny business on  my S4RS now. :'(  My S2R1000 seems to be holding up for now.

Oh Santa Claus, if you are real...this is your time to shine big guy. I guess I can always count on the Great Pumpkin. Where do i sign?  [coffee]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Nekkid Tim on November 30, 2009, 05:55:18 PM
It's not an overnight solution. This problem showed up when? 1-2 years down the road over a type of gas they may not even have had tested?

I'd like to point out that at no point have I said, conjectured, insinuated, or accused Ducati of dealing with something that can be solved overnight.   Problems crop up in the automotive and motorcycle industry over periods of years.  This is, in itself, not unusual nor is it unprecedented.  There is a long historical precedent for how to handle such a situation, both from a public relations standpoint and from a standpoint of researching, planning, and implementing a practical, technical, marketplace solution.

With the response that we have to date from Ducati corporate (NOT individual dealers) do you have the sense that the company has and is doing everything they can to address the public relations damage from the problem?   Do you understand their approach to dealing with the technical side of the problem?    Has their communication been of such a nature that customers are, in general, reassured?   Do you get a sense that customers are concerned but that the company has done all in their power to allay those concerns?   Perhaps you do, and can share the reasons why.   I don't have that sense of the company's position in this situation.


Quote
Okay-say you find a *new* formula for material-how long would you test it for? 6 months? I think not.

First, if I were a company executive trying to both solve the situation and maintain communication with my customer base, I don't think that finding a *new* formula for material would be my primary path of action.  Perhaps a secondary, long-term, background search for such a formulation would be in order.

Secondly, since the problems with tanks have been shown to take longer than six months to present themselves, I would agree that a 6 month test would be unthinkable.  Obviously, a minumum test would now have to be considered to be five years, since that is the federally mandated emissions warranty in Ducati's largest single export market.

That's why I don't think that finding a *new* formulation is a viable first path option towards solving this problem.
 
Quote

In the meantime, you have current motorcycle owners who have tanks that are not fitting the moto, canot be latched unlatched, hitting the bars on full lock, etc-do you have a better suggestion on what to do? All they can *currently* do is replace the tank to keep the current owner moderately happy, while it gets sorted.


I would suggest that that is all that they *are* currently doing, and it is not remotely close to all that they *could* currently be doing.  And they are doing that in a hit-or-miss fashion amid much confusion and chaos at the individual owner and individual dealer level.  The posts in this thread alone (heck, the simple existence of this thread) amply demonstrate that fact.

As far as having a "better" suggestion for what the company could be doing, the idea of "better" is open to personal opinion.  I would suggest, whether "better" or not, that the company could:

1. Send a letter to each registered owner of an affected bike or potentially affected bike, acknowledging that there is a problem with the fuel tank construction of their motorcycle, and that if they have not yet had their bike inspected, they should do so immediately.   Counsel those owners whose tanks have already been replaced or are pending replacement that the company will stand behind the replacement tank even if the bike's warranty expires prior to the replacement tank exhibiting any symptoms of the problems.  Send a similar letter to all francished dealers advising that it be prominantly displayed in the dealership for those owners who are missed in the private mailing.

2.   Issue a press release that gives the public a general overall idea of what the company is doing to correct the problem, and if the problem is unlikely to exhibit itself in other applications, tell the public why they believe that to be the case.

3. Keep owners, dealers, and the public informed as to their progress in resolving the problem and their timetable for completing all corrective actions.

Now, of course, there are all sorts of potential legal and liability issues with the above suggestions, that I'm sure a lawyer could point out.  My point isn't to say "This is what Ducati SHOULD or MUST do."   My point is that I can think of things they COULD be doing that might prove significantly more reassuring to their customers than what they ARE doing.   I'm not going to debate each "suggestion" and its relative legal and liability and customer relations advantages and disadvantages.  I'm too tired of it, and it won't make one whit of difference, anyway.

Quote
I can see them not willing to make a public announcement until after some sort of fix has been devised.

I can too, and I can see that doing a great deal of damage to their customer relations in the meantime.

Let me simply close with an observation.  I bought Ducatis throughout the 80's when it appeared the company itself could go out of business on any given month.   I bought Ducatis throughout the 90's when the company changed hands several times and quality issues (regulator rectifiers frying, flaking rocker arms, etc) plagued the company.  And I continued to buy Ducatis through the past decade, and I have NEVER questioned my enthusiasm or dedication to the marque.   My 2007 S4Rs in stock trim was the most fun stock motorcycle I have ever owned.  In its currently modified form, it is, quite simply, the most fun motorcycle I have ever ridden in my life, let alone personally owned.  Seriously.  It is b.a.d.a.s.s., toxic, fun.   I own FOUR other Ducatis right now.   

Yet, if I were to be looking for a replacement for the bike today (I am not), I would be more likely to buy an MV Agusta Brutale 1078R than the Streetfighter.   If I wanted an even lighter, more flickable bike than the S4Rs (I don't), I would look at the Triumph Street Triple R before I would consider a Ducati Monster 696.   There is NOTHING about the S4Rs that would cause that state of affairs, INCLUDING the problems with the fuel tank.  It is Ducati's response to date with regard to the fuel tank issue that makes me feel that way.

Perhaps I am the only one who is affected in this way.

<Shrug.>   Doesn't matter.   


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: somegirl on December 01, 2009, 01:33:32 PM
Bugged my dealer again, still no definitive word from Ducati either way.

He thinks the chances are slim, as they have been having trouble getting things covered that are within warranty. :(


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: patorojo on December 01, 2009, 02:04:09 PM
Have been watching this thread and my 2007 S2R1K Red for a while and finally started noticing the signs, most visible one of the frame bumbers starting to push outward.  Took it to my dealer today and he said it most definitely has the expansion problem and has sent the warranty request in.  They have handled 5 or 6 of these successfully so far.  In chatting about the problem, he noted that based on conversations he has had with Ducati, it sounded like Acerbis (who makes the tanks for Ducati) and Ducati are in a pissing match as to who is responsible.  He expects Ducati to issue a recall after somebody steps up.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: aaronb on December 02, 2009, 02:09:03 PM
Quote
Okay-say you find a *new* formula for material-how long would you test it for? 6 months? I think not.

the properties of most plastics are known, quite well.  no long term testing would be required.

my thought would be that a plastic that remains stable in the presence of gasoline, and alcohol might cost a little more than whatever is currently being used. 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Satellite smithy on December 02, 2009, 04:35:59 PM
the properties of most plastics are known, quite well.  no long term testing would be required.


How do you think we got to where we are?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: aaronb on December 02, 2009, 05:40:19 PM
How do you think we got to where we are?

try to save a few bucks cost in the end


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Satellite smithy on December 02, 2009, 06:03:23 PM
try to save a few bucks cost in the end

So....you're saying they knew they'd have an issue, and just chose a lesser material? I maintain it's a surprise to them.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: He Man on December 02, 2009, 07:35:29 PM
Arent plastic tanks used in several areas of automotive application? I think the issue here maybe, the plastic is safe for use on gasoline, not E10 gasoline.

Does it seem like this issue happens in europe too?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on December 03, 2009, 03:31:38 AM
Arent plastic tanks used in several areas of automotive application? I think the issue here maybe, the plastic is safe for use on gasoline, not E10 gasoline.

Does it seem like this issue happens in europe too?

I have personally spoken with mechanics in Italy, Germany and the UK -- none of them have heard about this at all. 

I've posted on several boards in UK and in Italy as well (or had someone do it for me, my Italian is limited to asking where the bathroom and a good hooker are) and no one has heard of it at all.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: herm on December 03, 2009, 05:19:00 AM
i realize that it would be a lot harder to detect, but i am curious if there are any shape changing issues with the new model tanks (specifically the unseen inner tank)

anyone have any input?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: arai_speed on December 04, 2009, 01:15:10 PM
Well it's been 6 months since I got my replacement tank for my S4Rs and lo and behold today I noticed small ripple on both sides of the tank.  Right around the knee area *sigh*


At this point I am going to wait and see how this progresses and wait until I hear about a permanent fix.  I would strongly urge those of you who have gotten your replacement to still fill our the complaint and send Ducatiz your information.

I'll post up pictures later.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on December 04, 2009, 03:35:16 PM

Arai. Can you also post something showing you've had your tank replaced already?  Some people do not believe the replacement tanks are also deforming.

Where do you get your gas?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: arai_speed on December 04, 2009, 04:06:34 PM
Only proof I have is an email from my local dealer. I get my gas all along the local mountains of LA county  :(


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: herm on December 04, 2009, 04:49:15 PM
finally filled out my NHTSA report today (ok, flog me)
anyway...i had to select the s4r, as my bike was not represented (s2r1k)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on December 05, 2009, 03:31:21 AM
Did you note in the report the bike wasn't listed?  Its the same tank though


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: herm on December 05, 2009, 06:02:05 AM
Did you note in the report the bike wasn't listed?  Its the same tank though


i did


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: angler on December 05, 2009, 06:51:47 AM
I put my first tank in my replacement yesterday.  The new tank is unbelievably white inside compared to the old tank.  Will keep my eye on any changes........


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on December 05, 2009, 08:37:41 AM
What colour was the old one?  Mine looks white inside


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: angler on December 05, 2009, 08:43:40 AM
What colour was the old one?  Mine looks white inside


Like a dark butter yellow color.  The new one is a really bright white.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: He Man on December 05, 2009, 04:10:36 PM
mine is smookers teeth yellow.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on December 05, 2009, 04:20:41 PM
mine is smookers teeth yellow.

was it always that way?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: He Man on December 05, 2009, 08:18:15 PM
was it always that way?

nope. lol


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Xerxes1769 on December 09, 2009, 11:09:13 AM
Joined the group today...took my bike to the local Duc shop last Saturday and was told that they will have an answer for me this Friday...hopefully DNA will come thru and replace the tank...the shop wasn't too convinced since the warranty on my bike expired 9 months ago (it's an '07)...here's to being hopeful....


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Charlief on December 09, 2009, 04:25:54 PM
My bike is an 05.... Well out warranty and I got a new tank without any issues


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on December 09, 2009, 04:30:27 PM
My bike is an 05.... Well out warranty and I got a new tank without any issues

Your bike has two warranties.  RTFM.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: somegirl on December 09, 2009, 06:37:59 PM
My bike is an 05.... Well out warranty and I got a new tank without any issues

What's your mileage?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: He Man on December 09, 2009, 08:33:42 PM
What's your mileage?

I dont think the warranty has a mileage equivalent.


If E10 is to blame then, is it how much fresh e10 is going into the tank? or is it how long the tank is exposed to e10? I hear E10 holds water too, but does it breakdown by itself?

My tank has morphed so much over the years, i wish there was a way to document it.

At first it was really hard to shut the clasp but it sat on my frame. Then it wouldnt sit on my frame and was relaly hard to take on and off. Then it completely did not sit on the frame but was easier to clasp. Now the clasp is useless and it doenst sit on the frame. but i hold an extra 1/2 gallon.


BTW: DNA said they contacted the dealer to speak with me. 2 weeks, the dealer hasnt done anything.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: somegirl on December 09, 2009, 09:26:39 PM
I dont think the warranty has a mileage equivalent.

I was told the emissions warranty has a 18,600 mile limit, which is why I'm having trouble.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: He Man on December 09, 2009, 09:38:01 PM
I was told the emissions warranty has a 18,600 mile limit, which is why I'm having trouble.

i was told it was just 5 years unlimited miles.... but thats from the shop that wont give me my tank.  [laugh]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: wbeck257 on December 14, 2009, 05:54:34 AM
It took three months, but my tank is in and on my bike.
Now its time to get rid of this damn thing..


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Nekkid Tim on December 14, 2009, 06:35:29 AM
It took three months, but my tank is in and on my bike.
Now its time to get rid of this damn thing..

I would share your sentiment, except unfortunately my S4Rs is currently not only the most fun motorcycle I've ever owned (of about 45-50 bikes over 31 years) but it is the most fun motorcycle I've ever ridden at all, and if I'm down and crabby and just out of sorts, all I have to do is go out for about 2-3 miles on this thing and I can't wipe the silly grin off my face to save my life, and people think I'm on some kind of drugs!   So, I'm hoping for an eventual, permanent, fix.   [thumbsup]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on December 14, 2009, 06:38:56 AM
The guys on the Multistrada site report a dealer who uses the Caswell coating for the new tanks and has good success so far.

I might talk to the guys at Ducpond about doing this for mine. 

I think you have to do it before it's had gas in it though...


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: wbeck257 on December 14, 2009, 06:48:35 AM
 So, I'm hoping for an eventual, permanent, fix.   [thumbsup]

Thats the thing -- the same tank that was put on last week is the same tank they put on the first time.
It's crap then, and it's crap now.

So in two years when this thing swells up like a bee-sting again what are we going to do? We are lucky as it is to fall in the emissions warrenty. I highly doubt we'll be getting another $1800 freebie for the next one when we are out of the 5 years.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: extra330 on December 14, 2009, 12:22:43 PM
I just read about this product  www.caswellplating.com/aids/epoxygas.htm (http://)  on LT Snyders site, desmo times.. According to his blog this stuff will work on plastic tanks although who knows for how long. Another who knows is, will this stuff even work at all if you've allready exposed your tank to E10. 

Mike


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: He Man on December 14, 2009, 02:03:58 PM
i just got another email from DNA. they were kind enough to email me following up on this matter.

They emailed me 2 weeks ago telling me they spoke with the dealer and the dealer will call me. (they havent called or left a voice mail or emailed)
They emailed me again today asking me if it got replaced.

how bad is the tank now? after sitting with a full tank of E10? The clasp is completely useless other then not allowing the tank to flip over.... it will shift left or right What does that mean? My bike is useless cause im not going to ride with my knee hooked in and feel my tank shift causing me to shit my pants thinking im falling off the bike.

However it is winter, i wont be doing any of that, so Im just hoping DNA will do the right thing and just authorize the work somewhere else. Ill be glad to go.



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on December 14, 2009, 03:39:09 PM
i just got another email from DNA. they were kind enough to email me following up on this matter.

They emailed me 2 weeks ago telling me they spoke with the dealer and the dealer will call me. (they havent called or left a voice mail or emailed)
They emailed me again today asking me if it got replaced.

how bad is the tank now? after sitting with a full tank of E10? The clasp is completely useless other then not allowing the tank to flip over.... it will shift left or right What does that mean? My bike is useless cause im not going to ride with my knee hooked in and feel my tank shift causing me to shit my pants thinking im falling off the bike.

However it is winter, i wont be doing any of that, so Im just hoping DNA will do the right thing and just authorize the work somewhere else. Ill be glad to go.



jeebus

sorry to hear that

i used a bungee cord on mine when the latch got bad.  i got a bungee with plastic hooks and hooked it onto the trellis.  reaaal rat bike looking... but it kept the tank in place. 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Nekkid Tim on December 14, 2009, 05:57:44 PM
Thats the thing -- the same tank that was put on last week is the same tank they put on the first time.
It's crap then, and it's crap now.

So in two years when this thing swells up like a bee-sting again what are we going to do? We are lucky as it is to fall in the emissions warrenty. I highly doubt we'll be getting another $1800 freebie for the next one when we are out of the 5 years.

Yes, if you read back through this interminable thread, that has been exactly my concern as well.    But I'll figure it out one way or another; whether it's having a custom alloy tank beaten for me in England, or buying an older steel Monster tank and modifying it to work on my S4Rs, or taking a ETI FuelCel carbon-kevlar tank for one of the older Monsters and modifying it, if I have to, I'll figure it out and keep this bike.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: He Man on December 17, 2009, 11:45:23 AM
Steel tank is the easiest way to go. I have one with a small dent in it that i plan on fixing adn throwing it on my bike ,however, undoubtly, my bike will probably get knocked over again, so im wondering how it would look if i punches it in myself and made it flow with the tank.. lol


So i got an email back from Ducati of North America

"Dear Kui,

I am not getting anywhere with the dealership on your fuel tank. Any chance that you can go to Rockwell Cycles in Ft. Montgomery NY?

Regards,"

Seems like they cant even get the dealership to replace my tank. Thats fine, i heard that place is shutting down for restructuring the management.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: aaronb on December 17, 2009, 02:32:01 PM
Steel tank is the easiest way to go. I have one with a small dent in it that i plan on fixing adn throwing it on my bike ,however, undoubtly, my bike will probably get knocked over again, so im wondering how it would look if i punches it in myself and made it flow with the tank.. lol


So i got an email back from Ducati of North America

"Dear Kui,

I am not getting anywhere with the dealership on your fuel tank. Any chance that you can go to Rockwell Cycles in Ft. Montgomery NY?

Regards,"

Seems like they cant even get the dealership to replace my tank. Thats fine, i heard that place is shutting down for restructuring the management.

wait, so DNA will replace it, but the dealer won't do the work?  that's really nice. 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: He Man on December 17, 2009, 03:40:12 PM
Quote
Kui,

Please schedule an appointment. The Regional Representative who authorizes the claims is aware of your situation. When scheduling, you will need to let them know that you can’t leave the bike. Unless you can find a way to truck it there.

Regards,

Nah, apparently DNA getting in touch with someone at the dealership, is just as bad as me trying to get in touch them. THey just dont pick up the phone or respond to emails.

Eitherway....atleast i can do it.

Now comes the fun part.

If my bike gets totaled, and i dont want to buy it back, I am willing to swap the new tank i get with anyone here who has a spare tank that is bad, for free. just pay shipping both ways and youll get a brand new tank that you can coat or do whatever you want.

I will be trying to get a red tank. or black.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on December 17, 2009, 05:08:17 PM
Nah, apparently DNA getting in touch with someone at the dealership, is just as bad as me trying to get in touch them. THey just dont pick up the phone or respond to emails.

Eitherway....atleast i can do it.

Now comes the fun part.

If my bike gets totaled, and i dont want to buy it back, I am willing to swap the new tank i get with anyone here who has a spare tank that is bad, for free. just pay shipping both ways and youll get a brand new tank that you can coat or do whatever you want.

I will be trying to get a red tank. or black.

I'll take it.. 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: DarkStaR on December 20, 2009, 12:11:25 PM
Joined...


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: 2 Wheel Wanderer on December 22, 2009, 10:59:21 PM
I joined about 3 weeks ago. Ducatiz thanks for your work on this. Since joining I have gone to my dealership and they put in a claim to DNA for me. I just got the news that I was denied a new tank due to the mileage on my bike. Apparently the emissions warranty is 5 years or 18K miles. My odometer is at 23K.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: J.P. on December 24, 2009, 05:31:47 AM
Wow! So that's how they are gonna play it?
So now you gotta buy a new tank?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: 2 Wheel Wanderer on December 24, 2009, 10:06:15 AM
Wow! So that's how they are gonna play it?
So now you gotta buy a new tank?

Nope, I'm gonna call DNA directly to see if I can get it handled.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: scduc on December 25, 2009, 11:49:52 AM
So where's the list of those you had no problems and those still waiting? I cant help but think that a lot of this is not DNA but the actual dealer.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Charlief on December 25, 2009, 11:57:37 AM
So where's the list of those you had no problems and those still waiting? I cant help but think that a lot of this is not DNA but the actual dealer.

this is my feeling also.  I got my tank in less than 3 weeks. From what I read about "He Man"....  it seems to be his dealer and not DNA   


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Blake on January 07, 2010, 07:43:59 PM
Spoke to my local dealer the other day, he took some pics and sent them off to DNA.  Didn't hear back right away so I called the guy at the dealer and asked for the cust. svc. reps # at DNA and called him.  I've been given the green light on a new tank under the Emission Control warranty.   [thumbsup]  So now I wait for who knows how long until they build my tank, but I'm a happy camper that they took care of the issue w/ no hassle whatsoever.

Later


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: J.P. on January 08, 2010, 07:27:59 AM
Anyone else have the feeling that DNA or the parent is just going to replace the tank with the same, until no longer obligated by US federal law to do so?
Anyone hear news by Duc or Acerbis actually admitting that there is a problem or if the replacement tanks are any different?
My tank now is showing a crease in the side. Like it's been dented.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on January 08, 2010, 08:00:33 AM
Anyone else have the feeling that DNA or the parent is just going to replace the tank with the same, until no longer obligated by US federal law to do so?
Anyone hear news by Duc or Acerbis actually admitting that there is a problem or if the replacement tanks are any different?
My tank now is showing a crease in the side. Like it's been dented.

ugh, that's exactly what they did with the 900ss frame cracking problem.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Blake on January 08, 2010, 10:10:08 PM
  The guy at DNA told me that the composition of the new tank has been altered to deal w/ the problem.   [roll]
We'll see.  Since the dealer that's taking care of my tank also sells Triumphs, it might just be time for that matte black Speed Triple.

Later


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Ddan on January 10, 2010, 01:44:41 AM
ugh, that's exactly what they did with the 900ss frame cracking problem.
Actually, up until a couple of years ago, they were still replacing those frames with new ones.  They may still be doing it, I don't know for sure.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on January 10, 2010, 03:48:58 AM
Actually, up until a couple of years ago, they were still replacing those frames with new ones.  They may still be doing it, I don't know for sure.

You don't understand my analogy.

Also, Ducati was no longer replacing SS frames as of 2005.  I have direct knowledge.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Ddan on January 10, 2010, 03:37:13 PM
You don't understand my analogy.

Also, Ducati was no longer replacing SS frames as of 2005.  I have direct knowledge.
OK


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Heath on January 19, 2010, 02:14:33 PM
Called my dealership and they said just drop it off and we will start the process.  Now I just need to find the right balance of weather and a person to give me a ride home.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Heath on January 23, 2010, 03:20:18 PM
Dropped the bike off today, Saturday.  The girl at the dealer said she could get the tank by Thursday and done by the weekend. :]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: somegirl on January 25, 2010, 01:14:55 PM
Finally in town long enough to try a different dealership this week.  Just talked to them on the phone and I already got a better vibe than the last place, fingers crossed.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: DCXCV on January 26, 2010, 05:31:29 AM
I joined about 3 weeks ago. Ducatiz thanks for your work on this. Since joining I have gone to my dealership and they put in a claim to DNA for me. I just got the news that I was denied a new tank due to the mileage on my bike. Apparently the emissions warranty is 5 years or 18K miles. My odometer is at 23K.

Haven't looked through this thread in a while, but if you don't have something resolved yet I have this to offer - DNA replaced my tank even with me being over the mileage.  My dealer mentioned the mileage limitation (I think I was right about at 30k) but said he'd try it anyway and didn't really forsee a problem.  And there was no problem.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on January 26, 2010, 06:56:07 AM
Haven't looked through this thread in a while, but if you don't have something resolved yet I have this to offer - DNA replaced my tank even with me being over the mileage.  My dealer mentioned the mileage limitation (I think I was right about at 30k) but said he'd try it anyway and didn't really forsee a problem.  And there was no problem.

Ducati has been replacing tanks regardless of mileage. They are trying to put them under warranty but where a tank is out of warranty, they do it as a "good will" swap.

I think this is great, I just fear that down the road some currently unaffected bikes will have the original tank.  Without an official recall, there is no way to know what bikes got a replacement tank.

This is the same problem with mid 90s 900SS which had a bad head weld design and would crack at the yoke.  Ducati replaced those frames even 10 years later, but since there was no official recall, if you are looking at a 94/95/96 900ss, you have NO WAY to know if the frame was replaced or not.



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: somegirl on January 28, 2010, 01:56:01 PM
Finally in town long enough to try a different dealership this week.  Just talked to them on the phone and I already got a better vibe than the last place, fingers crossed.

I just got word from the second dealership that Ducati will cover my tank, it's now on order. [thumbsup] [thumbsup] [thumbsup]

Pretty amazing...the first dealership specializes in Ducati, MV Augusta, Triumph, and other European brands.  I went there because that's where I bought my Duc originally.  When I had called them up, they didn't seem to have any familiarity with the expansion problem.  When I brought it in, the service guy acknowledged that my tank was expanding but told me that it was very doubtful that it would be covered as my mileage was too high and they were having trouble getting "legitimate" warranty claims covered as it was.  I called them to follow up several times over the course of a few weeks and never got a straight answer.

Before contacting Ducati NA, I felt obliged to try the other relatively close dealership, even though I had been warned against ever going there for service as they are primarily a Honda dealership that also carries some Ducatis.

I sent in an online appointment request on Monday describing the problem and asking for an appointment to come in and have my tank evaluated.  I got a call back 2 minutes later, the guy there was clearly very familiar with the tank problem and its cause, and told me to come by anytime.  I went by yesterday, he was not concerned about my mileage, he's never been turned down yet for a tank replacement  :), and mine was the worst example that he's seen so far. :P  He also clearly knew his way around a Monster.

He told me it would take up to a week to get an answer back, but he called me today and told me it would be replaced. ;D

Oh, and he made an interesting comment - apparently the tanks shrink back down again after they've been empty for a while.  He said that they have shipped a number of the bad tanks to Italy and they seem to have shrunk by the time they arrive.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: BK_856er on January 28, 2010, 07:00:06 PM
I just got word from the second dealership that Ducati will cover my tank, it's now on order. [thumbsup] [thumbsup] [thumbsup]

Congrats!  That same dealer replaced my tank both times.  And my cylinder heads + extras.  I was always happy with their work and professionalism.  They seem to have a very good relationship with DNA, which can make a big difference.  No reason a shop can't handle more than one brand well!  Thumbs up for HPD.

BK


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on January 29, 2010, 04:01:18 AM
Oh, and he made an interesting comment - apparently the tanks shrink back down again after they've been empty for a while.  He said that they have shipped a number of the bad tanks to Italy and they seem to have shrunk by the time they arrive.

I got the same story as well from DNA.  This is an interesting piece of info which means the permeability of the inner tank skin is absorbing and then leaching off the gas or ethanol.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: He Man on January 29, 2010, 08:13:25 PM
I got the same story as well from DNA.  This is an interesting piece of info which means the permeability of the inner tank skin is absorbing and then leaching off the gas or ethanol.


Thats werid. Wouldnt the gas permate to the underlining paint and begin to dissolve it?

also, i found it really odd, but before my bike sat for 2 months straight. i filled the tank up, and when i first took it out, the tank was 1/2 empty....


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on January 30, 2010, 02:23:48 AM

Thats werid. Wouldnt the gas permate to the underlining paint and begin to dissolve it?


Not necessarily.  There is likely a limit of how far it penetrates.  Also, some people have reported surface spots being soft/mushy as if there is liquid underneath the paint layer.  also, i would assume the paint to be resistant to gas (or we have yet another problem!)  to deal with spills.

Quote
also, i found it really odd, but before my bike sat for 2 months straight. i filled the tank up, and when i first took it out, the tank was 1/2 empty....

that is weird and if it happened to me, i would drain the gas assuming all the volatiles have come off and only water and ethanol is left! 

seriously, was your gas siphoned?  it could have expanded such that the volume inside increased as well, so the tank was 1/2 full.  imagine liquid in a balloon, full.  then blow some air inside long with the liquid.  same thing.




Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Heath on February 02, 2010, 10:17:33 PM
Just an update on mine.  They said shipping of the tank is taking longer then expected.  So still waiting for mine to be fixed.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: somegirl on February 03, 2010, 05:53:40 PM
I finally got around to filing my NHTSA complaint, thanks for the reminder.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Charlief on February 04, 2010, 12:52:01 AM
I finally got around to filing my NHTSA complaint, thanks for the reminder.

I just did mine also.... thanks for the kick in the pants email.  [thumbsup]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on February 04, 2010, 02:45:56 AM
Toyota was pushed to do a recall because of only 100 complaints to NHTSA -- for 2 million cars!

If you have been waiting to file with NHTSA, do it now.  Ducati sells around 35,000-40,000 bikes WORLDWIDE.  Toyota sells >1 million worldwide, and ONLY 100 COMPLAINTS pushed them to do a recall!


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: J.P. on February 04, 2010, 02:56:20 AM
Took a tally of NHSTA complaints on Fuel Systems- tank expansions (m.y. 2005-2008)2 days ago:

For Monsters: 37

Sport Classic: 74

Multi Strata: 3

Looks like we got over 100 if we can get it together w/ the SC guys. Still no official word from Ducati that there is a problem. I'm reluctant to take my bike in for a replacement, as we may need to haul it into court in DC as evidence.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on February 04, 2010, 03:00:15 AM
Looks like we got over 100 if we can get it together w/ the SC guys. Still no official word from Ducati that there is a problem. I'm reluctant to take my bike in for a replacement, as we may need to haul it into court in DC as evidence.

No bike needed for evidence.   There are plenty of people aware of the problem.

Let Ducati replace it, there is no reason to hold out. I believe they want to make them all right. 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Pinocchio on February 12, 2010, 09:07:59 AM
I have a 2005 Multistrada with this problem. I thought the reason for the increasingly tight tank-to-frame fit and the poor rear bodywork alignment was a bent frame - until I sent it to GMD Computrack in Atlanta to have the frame measured/aligned, and they spotted the real problem. I called my dealer and was told they had another MTS waiting for a back-ordered tank which is being handled as a warranty replacement, but they took my VIN and said that they would try to get my out of warranty machine on the list for a "Customer Good Will" replacement.

I'm signing up on the Yahoo group list just in case Ducati runs out of "Good Will". I was seriously committed to selling both my Ducs for a new MTS 1200 this April; now I'm on the fence.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on February 12, 2010, 09:13:24 AM
I'm signing up on the Yahoo group list just in case Ducati runs out of "Good Will". I was seriously committed to selling both my Ducs for a new MTS 1200 this April; now I'm on the fence.

Hi Pinocchio

The only instances of tank replacement refusals I have heard about are due to the dealer.  If you read this thread, some folks have called Ducati in Cali and been told to go to another dealer.

So far, Ducati is replacing tanks without exception.

My only concern with the replacement tanks is that several people now have reported having to get a second (and one has gotten a third) replacement tank. 

-tiz


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ShiftSix on February 12, 2010, 09:44:34 AM
Yeah I have a 08 s2r1000 and had them replace one gas tank already because there was ripples in the side of the tank and that was within the first 5 months of owning it.   just noticed the other day tho when filling up the inside plastic of the gas tank liner is warped like crazy...  ???  so in not too long from now ill probably be looking at another gas tank...    sucks...


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: scduc on February 13, 2010, 05:16:22 AM
My concern as well. If the problem happens again, hopefully Ducati will have the problem fixed or it will be time for me to buy a new bike. The thought of selling my S2R is something that is inconceivable.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Pinocchio on February 13, 2010, 06:45:21 AM
IMO (and forgive me if this has been said before), Ducati does not see this as a problem outside of markets where ethanol-blended fuels cause the problem.

Ducati Bologna is probably observing Toyota's recent misery with great apprehension at this moment. Submitting to a recall of this size could force a small company like Ducati into receivership, not just from the cost of the fix, but from damage to the brand image in the North American market. The last time the Italian government ran Ducati, the brand barely survived.

If and when we get our new tanks from Ducati NA, we would be doing the company and ourselves a favor if we coated them with epoxy tank sealants and moved on with our lives.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Satellite smithy on February 13, 2010, 08:10:04 AM
If and when we get our new tanks from Ducati NA, we would be doing the company and ourselves a favor if we coated them with epoxy tank sealants and moved on with our lives.


AFAIK, there are not a lot of epoxy tank sealants designed to stick to nylon. Also, why the make the beast with two backs should I? They sold a screwed up tank-if the fix is that easy *they* can do it.

There's currently a 695 sitting in the garage that can't be ridden because the steering damper hits the tank. One can't lift up the tank, for fear of never being able to latch it again, turn the bars full over, or lock the steering. This is not acceptable for a three year old bike.

It should not be a hard concept for a manufacturer to realize that it might be a good idea to test their brandy-new-never-before-used materials with the chemicals those materials will come in contact with and check for adverse effects.

It'd be cool if they actually would issue some sort of formal notice that they will be supporting this issue, other than that, I have no interest in replacing the tank, even with a coating, and waiting to see if I have this problem again.

Should they actually replace the tank, the bike will be sold immediately after.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: victor441 on February 13, 2010, 08:28:18 AM
 The guy at DNA told me that the composition of the new tank has been altered to deal w/ the problem.   [roll]
We'll see.  Since the dealer that's taking care of my tank also sells Triumphs, it might just be time for that matte black Speed Triple.

Later


yep, I'm seriously leaning that way too, was going to replace my 2003 Monster w/ a newer and bigger Ducati but the plastic tank issue (and Ducati's response to it) has killed that idea.  FWIW test rode a 2009 Speed Triple this week and liked it a LOT...AND the 2008+ models have steel tanks as Triumph evidently had some less serious plastic tank problems on the earlier bikes.  Interestingly, from what I've read Acerbis made the tanks for both, am curious what the differences are since it looks like problems are far less common on Triumphs...


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Pinocchio on February 13, 2010, 12:04:03 PM

AFAIK, there are not a lot of epoxy tank sealants designed to stick to nylon. Also, why the make the beast with two backs should I? They sold a screwed up tank-if the fix is that easy *they* can do it.

There's currently a 695 sitting in the garage that can't be ridden because the steering damper hits the tank. One can't lift up the tank, for fear of never being able to latch it again, turn the bars full over, or lock the steering. This is not acceptable for a three year old bike.

It should not be a hard concept for a manufacturer to realize that it might be a good idea to test their brandy-new-never-before-used materials with the chemicals those materials will come in contact with and check for adverse effects.

It'd be cool if they actually would issue some sort of formal notice that they will be supporting this issue, other than that, I have no interest in replacing the tank, even with a coating, and waiting to see if I have this problem again.

Should they actually replace the tank, the bike will be sold immediately after.

With respect, I don't feel inclined to point the finger at Ducati. The bikes with plastic tanks have been around for quite awhile and were no doubt tested with European gasoline blends, or US pre-ethanol blends, and passed the US emissions standards, or they couldn't have been imported. Ethanol blending was mandated in the US in 2006, and was only increased to the current level of 10% in 2008. So now we are just starting to see one more of the side-effects of misguided energy policy. The other far-reaching economic effects of ethanol blending are troubling enough to my conscience for me to consider my tank swelling problem to be trivial.

yep, I'm seriously leaning that way too, was going to replace my 2003 Monster w/ a newer and bigger Ducati but the plastic tank issue (and Ducati's response to it) has killed that idea.  FWIW test rode a 2009 Speed Triple this week and liked it a LOT...AND the 2008+ models have steel tanks as Triumph evidently had some less serious plastic tank problems on the earlier bikes.
And I would never buy a Speed Triple, I already have an S4RS. When I sell it, I will buy another Duc. It may not be logical, but there it is. [laugh]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on February 13, 2010, 04:29:06 PM
With respect, I don't feel inclined to point the finger at Ducati. The bikes with plastic tanks have been around for quite awhile and were no doubt tested with European gasoline blends, or US pre-ethanol blends, and passed the US emissions standards, or they couldn't have been imported. Ethanol blending was mandated in the US in 2006, and was only increased to the current level of 10% in 2008.

Ethanol blend (E10) has been mandated in 11 states (which follow CARB) since the mid 80s, when MTBE was banned.  Many states required "oxygenated" gasoline during winter months and use ethanol for that purpose, and the feds have pushed for the use of Ethanol E10 since 1982 with tax benefits:

"In 1982, the Surface Transportation Assistance Act raised the gasoline excise tax from 4 cents/gallon to 9 cents/gallon and increased the exemption for 10-percent ethanol blended gas to 5 cents/gallon. In 1984, the Tax Reform Act increased the exemption again, to 6 cents/gallon. The Alternative Motor Fuels Act of 1988 created research, development and demonstration programs for both vehicles and fuels and provided fuel economy credits for automakers. In 1990, through the Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act, Congress extended the ethanol tax incentive from 1992 to 2000 but decreased the incentive from 6 cents/gallon to 5.4 cents/gallon."

So unless they developed the nylon/plastic in the early '70s, I highly doubt that's the reason (**If the real problem is ethanol, which I am not 100% convinced of**).  Ducati NA is based in California which has had E10 for ages, and MTBE before that, which is far more pernicious to HDPE than ethanol is.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: smooth on February 14, 2010, 04:04:47 PM
I've just emailed you my updated info and pics regarding my tank. In short, my dealer denied there was a problem.



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on February 15, 2010, 06:35:17 AM
I've just emailed you my updated info and pics regarding my tank. In short, my dealer denied there was a problem.



Please give a friendly call to Ducati NA in California.  408-253-0499.  Keep your cool and just tell them what happened.  Ask to speak to someone to help you with a tank expansion problem.

A handful of people have had dealer problems.  In short, take it to another dealer.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Nekkid Tim on February 15, 2010, 02:35:13 PM
yep, I'm seriously leaning that way too, was going to replace my 2003 Monster w/ a newer and bigger Ducati but the plastic tank issue (and Ducati's response to it) has killed that idea.  FWIW test rode a 2009 Speed Triple this week and liked it a LOT...AND the 2008+ models have steel tanks as Triumph evidently had some less serious plastic tank problems on the earlier bikes.  Interestingly, from what I've read Acerbis made the tanks for both, am curious what the differences are since it looks like problems are far less common on Triumphs...

I have a 1999 Triumph Speed Triple 955i in my garage right now that has the 1997 T509 bodywork on it from my original Speed Triple.  Nylon tank.  13+ years old, plenty of ethanol-spiked gas, looks and fits fine.   The 955i bodywork that was sold with the '97 Speed Triple was *also* perfect at the time it was sold.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: victor441 on February 15, 2010, 07:32:59 PM
I have a 1999 Triumph Speed Triple 955i in my garage right now that has the 1997 T509 bodywork on it from my original Speed Triple.  Nylon tank.  13+ years old, plenty of ethanol-spiked gas, looks and fits fine.   The 955i bodywork that was sold with the '97 Speed Triple was *also* perfect at the time it was sold.

That jibes with what I've read, there have been some isolated problems w/ Triumph plastic tanks, but nothing like Ducati...am curious why the difference (materials? design??) as both were supposedly made by Acerbis...also would be interesting to know why Triumph switched to steel two years ago. 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: vesparex on February 25, 2010, 05:02:22 PM
Evening everyone,

My 2007 S4Rs is in for her 22,500 service and I too have the deformed fuel tank. First noticed in early Dec while lifting the tank to check the air filter. Tank was butted up against my ignition switch. Then, once opened, could not latch. Dealer has not seen this issue themselves. I have left a voice message for a rep at DNA, ext 4404. Used to be Mike Norman but I do not believe he is there anymore.

Then I google and found this thread. I joined the yahoo group and took the survey and filled out the requested info for the yahoo moderator.

I also searched NHSTA. Found something about water pump impeller.

So thats it for now.

Duane

2007 S4Rs


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on February 26, 2010, 02:28:52 AM
Then I google and found this thread. I joined the yahoo group and took the survey and filled out the requested info for the yahoo moderator.

Glad you found this website, there's a lot more on here than just the tank problem thread!

If you haven't read the whole thread, so far, Ducati is being good about replacing every tank that comes in, regardless of the mileage limitations on the warranties.  They need to do an official recall, though.  If you have a problem with your dealer, call Ducati (you already have it seems) and/or take it to another place if you can. 

They need to a recall though.  This is going to affect the future value of the bikes if they don't do a recall.  It's not like they can sweep this under the rug.   Too many people are talking about it this time.



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: vesparex on February 27, 2010, 09:31:48 AM
Got ahold of TJ at DNA Fri afternoon. He acknowledged that this is a known issue and asked that I instruct my dealer to call their regional Duc rep. So I called and they are. So fingers crossed.  My bike is high in milage. Over 24,000. But has never been down. Not modified except running sans cans. Only udder and snazzy turned out tips (made from the OE pipe so stainless matches!). No stickers or after market paint on the tank. So hopefully this goes smoothly and I get a replacement tank (that won't warp in 3-4 years too).

Duane


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: duccarlos on March 01, 2010, 05:23:11 AM
My local dealer told me that Ducati is supposed to come out with a better tank that will not have the same issues in March. From what they said, the current batch that they've been sending are basically the same tank, so the issue would simply reappear eventually. I put in the claim to have the papaer work done before the 5 year deadline, but I probably won't see a tank until April or May. I don't know if this was already discussed, I'm too lazy to read through the whole thread, but keep this in mind when you go to the dealer.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on March 01, 2010, 05:56:06 AM
My local dealer told me that Ducati is supposed to come out with a better tank that will not have the same issues in March.

what is his source?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: duccarlos on March 01, 2010, 06:00:47 AM
I can call him today, but I think they're closed on Mondays. I'll check and let you know.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: duccarlos on March 01, 2010, 06:03:16 AM
Closed today. I'll try to remember for tomorrow.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: rockaduc on March 01, 2010, 11:55:15 AM
My local dealer told me that Ducati is supposed to come out with a better tank that will not have the same issues in March. From what they said, the current batch that they've been sending are basically the same tank, so the issue would simply reappear eventually. I put in the claim to have the papaer work done before the 5 year deadline, but I probably won't see a tank until April or May. I don't know if this was already discussed, I'm too lazy to read through the whole thread, but keep this in mind when you go to the dealer.

This would be great if it turns out to be true


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: duccarlos on March 01, 2010, 12:30:06 PM
That's exactly why the dealer asked me to wait until March. Why replace the thing if it's just going to happen again?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: He Man on March 01, 2010, 05:28:40 PM
oh snap!


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Duckintime on March 01, 2010, 08:18:56 PM
That's exactly why the dealer asked me to wait until March. Why replace the thing if it's just going to happen again?
man I dont know if your dealer is telling you all the story. I doubt its going to be any better or worse then the tanks on there. What about the ones they already replaced? Dunno, but I doubt Duc is going to put much effort into a bike thats discontinued for a tank that may warp in 4 years. BTW, I finally submitted my NHTSA complaint
 [popcorn]                                  


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: lazarus7 on March 02, 2010, 04:42:16 PM
hey, been a while....
took the 696 in for some issues and discovered that its tank has expanded,
and in talking to the mechanic realized that my 07 s4rs has, as well, the tank is butted completely up against the ignition switch
and unable to be unlatched...
dearlership/ parts stated that they had had some others as well and had ordered warranty replacement tanks in december
before christmas, with no deliveries as of yet...
have to take the s4rs up there for a eyes on to ensure that this is in fact my problem, but it certainly seems to be the case...
and again,
my 2006 triumph speed triple, just returned from its 12,000 mile service, has had zero issues with tank deformation...
dunno....:(
so, BOTH my monsters have this same tank deformation issue....
:(
but the dealership seemed certain that they would both be replaced under warranty....
Euro Cycles Tampa Bay  www.bmwrides.com (http://)
good guys there, zero complaints or issues, ever.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: lazarus7 on March 04, 2010, 04:31:25 PM
rode the RS up to eurocycles today (nice ride...!!! [evil])
yup, its tank is deformed as well....
both the 696 and the s4rs have warranty replacement tanks on order,
no questions asked...

as an aside, the service writer (jeff) told me that ducati has to reimburse the dealership parts department
for the RETAIL cost of every replacement tank,
to the tune of something like $1800-2400 USD....
call it $2000 per tank.
damn....!

he also told me that the 696 tank, already in motion, would probably have a delivery date of april at the earliest....
....just  some more data for everyone to chew on......



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Duckintime on March 04, 2010, 06:41:11 PM
Woa, the 696 has tank problems? I thought that tank was concealed by side panels. How did you come to realize it had problems? Since its covered, and one wouldnt normally notice blemishes with that style, was it just not fitting right anymore?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: lazarus7 on March 05, 2010, 03:37:04 PM
when i took it in to the shop it was noticed
that there were fitment issues at the "gap" between the rear of the tank and the seat....
like the tank had swelled up TIGHT against the seat....
apparently this is a known issue as well since they immediately filed a warranty claim
and the new tank is already in the pipeline somewhere...
although its a "skin", the internal actual fuel bladder/ tank had swelled up against the skins enough
to push them waaaay back against the seat....


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on March 05, 2010, 04:30:13 PM
wow.. this is the first 696 i've heard with the problem

i wonder if any 1100s will show it...  ugh..


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Duckintime on March 05, 2010, 08:21:26 PM
Yeah, this isnt really good news to hear.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: WetDuc on March 09, 2010, 07:16:59 PM
If the new monsters are having tank problems as well, DNA is going to HAVE to do something, right?!  Some unlucky person is going to have a tank start leaking while riding then explode in flames if they don't, and given the shitstorm Toyota is going through over the gas pedal issues, I can't think Ducati is going to want to be put into the negative spotlight as well.  I hope this crap finds some kind of resolution soon.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: lazarus7 on March 10, 2010, 06:24:27 PM
just rode QSL tonight with matthew (sport 100 w termis)
and matt (s2r orange)
euro cycles was in attendance with their truck and assorted bikes, half the staff...

when we met at my house, i asked them if they had noticed their tanks expanding, they didnt know about it...
sure enough, matthew's sport 1000 has expanded all the way up against the ignition lock as well...
he states he noticed a YEAR ago that his bars were hitting the tank,
he went and adjusted his steering stops out until they no longer hit...
apparently didnt swell much since then, but there is an apparent point where the ignition cylinder has rubbed through the tank stripe...

jeff, service writer, euro cycles , was there tonight, discussed it with him out front,
he didnt even need to walk around back to look at matthews bike,
told him to call with the V.I.N and etc and hed get it taken care of...


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Mojo S2R on March 11, 2010, 06:39:32 AM
Subscribed.  Thanks  [thumbsup]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Nekkid Tim on March 11, 2010, 03:44:47 PM
We've got about the same number of NHTSA complaints filed about this obvious safety hazard as have been filed against Toyota for 2009 Camry Sudden Unintended Acceleration problems.   There are about 11ty billion times as many Camrys as there are Ducati Monsters and Sport Classics.

Where are OUR headlines and congressional hearings?????    [evil]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on March 12, 2010, 03:44:14 AM
Write/call NHTSA. 

NHTSA Headquarters
1200 New Jersey Avenue, SE
West Building
Washington, DC 20590

Toll-Free: 1-888-327-4236


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Heath on March 12, 2010, 06:38:48 PM
I hope what duccarlos said about the March tanks is right.  I left my bike at the dealership on January 23rd and all they keep saying is we are still waiting for the tank.  If new tanks are coming in March that makes me feel better.  They said my claim got approved but they are just waiting for a tank.  If my bike wasn't an hour away I would go pick it up while waiting but just so much hassle.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: duccarlos on March 13, 2010, 10:50:44 AM
They had told me March, but knowing the eyetalian, it will take another month or 2. I did not leave the bike at the dealer.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: monsterblur on March 14, 2010, 03:37:34 AM
just a thought but has anyone installed a heat shield material under the tank?
i know this is not a solution but it may help with future problems.
i'm also having problems.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on March 14, 2010, 06:15:23 AM
just a thought but has anyone installed a heat shield material under the tank?
i know this is not a solution but it may help with future problems.
i'm also having problems.

the problem isn't related to heat.   if it were, there would be similar problems in Australia, Japan, Italy, UK, etc.. No one in any of those countries has reported an issue.



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: duccarlos on March 15, 2010, 05:00:21 AM
I spoke to the service guy that got the info from the regional service rep. I don't think they want to make it too public since the service guy got weirded out when I mentioned that I had posted it on a board. Of course the dealers don't want to deal with the hazzle of warranty work.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducpainter on March 15, 2010, 05:02:30 AM
I spoke to the service guy that got the info from the regional service rep. I don't think they want to make it too public since the service guy got weirded out when I mentioned that I had posted it on a board. Of course the dealers don't want to deal with the hazzle of warranty work.
Why would a dealer not want to do the work?

They get paid at retail.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: duccarlos on March 15, 2010, 05:07:34 AM
I think it takes the factory a long time to pay up, from what I understood from a conversation I had with someone that refuses to do warranty work anymore.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducpainter on March 15, 2010, 05:10:30 AM
I think it takes the factory a long time to pay up, from what I understood from a conversation I had with someone that refuses to do warranty work anymore.
My understanding is it gets credited to your parts account or vehicle account immediately.

The kicker is that Ducati drops the retail prices of the parts to reduce the burden.

A dealer can't, according to most franchise agreements, refuse to do warranty work. I call BS. ;)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: duccarlos on March 15, 2010, 05:12:49 AM
He's no longer a dealer. Service and performance only. Not very high on Ducati's list, but it might be BS since the anamosity is shared.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: somegirl on March 15, 2010, 07:38:16 AM
I had one dealer that didn't want to deal with it at all, and another that is more than happy to take care of it.

I just called mine up btw, tank still back-ordered with an ETA (I think of leaving the factory) on April 13.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Heath on March 16, 2010, 07:05:37 PM
Went and picked up the bike today.  My dealer said the same thing somegirl, tank back ordered till April 13th and they did find a fix.

I will be taking my bike back once the tank comes in.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Uncle Mofo on March 16, 2010, 07:13:10 PM
So what's the scoop with this fix? I had my tank replaced once, and the new one is already moving closer to the ignition switch  [puke]  >:(


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on March 17, 2010, 02:37:25 AM
I am always interested when dealers report a fix, but the manufacturer has not. 

Just take those reports with a grain of salt. 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: jgrm1 on March 17, 2010, 03:11:07 AM
Chalk up another data point for a 2008 model.  I joined the Yahoo group and submitted my complaint on the NHTSA site.  

I wish I had read this posting a month ago.  I just bought a beautiful black 2008 S2R1000 I found with only 76 miles on consignment at a local dealer.  Everything on the bike seemed perfect until I read this post.  After work last night, I went out to the garage to inspect my tank and sure enough, she's swollen like a SOB.  The front of the tank is rubbing the ignition housing and the right side frame pad is pushed out 1/4."  

This is what I told the NHTSA:

The plastic fuel tank on my 2008 Ducati Monster S2R1000 (selected Monster 696 as vehicle since S2R1000 was not an option) is swelling to the point it is rubbing against the ignition switch housing and no longer sits on the frame for proper support.  This is a serious issue because of the fire risk if the tank were to wear all the way through and allow gasoline to spill onto my ignition wiring and hot engine.  Obviously, a fuel leak occurring while riding the motorcycle could result in a crash, injury or death, and property damage.  I also cannot lift the fuel tank as designed by Ducati to service the motorcycle.  

I understand this is a problem affecting several Ducati models from 2005 to present.  My motorcycle was originally purchased in September 2008, currently has less than 700 miles on it, has not been modified , and, other than this serious defect, is in brand new condition.

I think I will hold off making a warranty claim until I know the replacement tanks are revised to prevent a reoccurrence.  Are there other weaknesses I should look for on the bike?

-Jeff


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on March 17, 2010, 03:54:36 AM

I think I will hold off making a warranty claim until I know the replacement tanks are revised to prevent a reoccurrence.  Are there other weaknesses I should look for on the bike?

-Jeff

Jeff you should go ahead and get your bike to a dealer.  I have never heard of such a low-mileage bike having a swelling problem.  I assume it is due to the bike sitting with gas in the tank.

This board has plenty of info on your bike, I don't think there are a huge number of problems.  I know the S2R1K has a surging issue related to the exhaust sensor and there are several options for fixes, but poke around in the tech section and you'll find what you need.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: duccarlos on March 17, 2010, 04:10:43 AM
I am always interested when dealers report a fix, but the manufacturer has not. 

Just take those reports with a grain of salt. 

You mean the dealer should take the info from the regional rep with a grain of salt. At the very least there will be records that you replaced your tank. This means that if it happens again, you should be able to get it replaced until they actually solve the issue.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on March 17, 2010, 10:17:41 AM
FYI

Ducati has issued a tech bulletin which addresses the problem in SC bikes, but no mention of the problem in Monsters or MTS.  I do not know what differences there are in the tanks' material or design, but the bulletin only addresses how to deal with it on SCs.



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: jgrm1 on March 17, 2010, 10:35:42 AM
ducatiz,

Please post the verbiage from the bulletin for the SCs if you have access to it.

Thanks,
Jeff


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Dave328 on March 18, 2010, 02:09:39 AM
Spoke with my dealer's Svc Mgr last nite at a bike night and he didn't even bat an eye. Just said to bring it in and he'll start the paperwork. [thumbsup]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: jgrm1 on March 18, 2010, 03:18:59 AM
I gave my (new to me) S2R1000 a closer inspection last night and noticed a relief of pressure when opening my fuel tank cap.  That struck me as odd, so I traced the breather line and tried blowing into it.  It was blocked.  

I wrestled with the tank latch, lifted the tank, and found the line was routed so it was pinched between the bottom of the tank and the electrical block.  Once the tank was lifted and the line free, I could blow through the line.  I rerouted the line, so it remained free and open.  You may consider checking yours.

I know this probably is not the root cause of my tank swelling, but having a pinched breather sure cannot help the situation.  I imagine the fuel pump will not have to work as hard now, which should free up at least 20-30 HP, right?  

Now, if the tank would shrink back down to size.

-Jeff  


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on March 18, 2010, 04:25:51 AM
Now, if the tank would shrink back down to size.

-Jeff 

drain the gas, open the filler and let it sit for about 1-2 weeks.  they shrink back to size when dry.



Quote
It was blocked. 

I wrestled with the tank latch, lifted the tank, and found the line was routed so it was pinched between the bottom of the tank and the electrical block.  Once the tank was lifted and the line free, I could blow through the line.  I rerouted the line, so it remained free and open.  You may consider checking yours.

actually, you may be onto something -- the pressure combined with ethanol/gas permeation could be a factor.  moreover, the venting design on the US models is unique to US (and maybe Canada) models due to CARB requirements.

it's still a plastic (flexible) tank.  enough internal pressure pushing out and you will get deformation.  add a penetrating solvent to the mix and the interior becomes even softer/more flexible and pressure can act on that to deform it.

it would explain the type of expansion that's been seen, but i don't think it would happen if it was pressure only -- that plastic should not deform so easily and is rated for pressure (but maybe only external pressure...hmm)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: jgrm1 on March 18, 2010, 05:02:43 AM
drain the gas, open the filler and let it sit for about 1-2 weeks.  they shrink back to size when dry.

I suppose this is good until the next time you splash gas into the tank.

actually, you may be onto something -- the pressure combined with ethanol/gas permeation could be a factor.  moreover, the venting design on the US models is unique to US (and maybe Canada) models due to CARB requirements.

it's still a plastic (flexible) tank.  enough internal pressure pushing out and you will get deformation.  add a penetrating solvent to the mix and the interior becomes even softer/more flexible and pressure can act on that to deform it.

it would explain the type of expansion that's been seen, but i don't think it would happen if it was pressure only -- that plastic should not deform so easily and is rated for pressure (but maybe only external pressure...hmm)

I considered the pinched breather line being a root cause, but doubted the Sport Classics have the same pinch point.  Maybe the do?

I took photos of my findings on my bike, but apparently cannot post them here directly from my hard drive.  I'd love to share them.

-Jeff


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on March 18, 2010, 05:50:25 AM
If you send them to me I can host them.  Photobucket is also an option.  Pm me


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on March 19, 2010, 02:49:20 AM
jgrm1's bike pics  - thumbnails, click for large picture

last one shows the pinched vent line.

(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn50/motorradmensch/ducatitanks/th_fffFuelTank031710I.jpg) (http://s301.photobucket.com/albums/nn50/motorradmensch/ducatitanks/?action=view&current=fffFuelTank031710I.jpg)(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn50/motorradmensch/ducatitanks/th_fffFuelTank031710IV.jpg) (http://s301.photobucket.com/albums/nn50/motorradmensch/ducatitanks/?action=view&current=fffFuelTank031710IV.jpg)

(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn50/motorradmensch/ducatitanks/th_fffFuelTankVentLineII.jpg) (http://s301.photobucket.com/albums/nn50/motorradmensch/ducatitanks/?action=view&current=fffFuelTankVentLineII.jpg)(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn50/motorradmensch/ducatitanks/th_fffFuelTankVentLineIII.jpg) (http://s301.photobucket.com/albums/nn50/motorradmensch/ducatitanks/?action=view&current=fffFuelTankVentLineIII.jpg)
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn50/motorradmensch/ducatitanks/th_fffFuelTankVentLineIV.jpg) (http://s301.photobucket.com/albums/nn50/motorradmensch/ducatitanks/?action=view&current=fffFuelTankVentLineIV.jpg)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducpainter on March 19, 2010, 02:54:49 AM
jgrm1's bike pics  - thumbnails, click for large picture

last one shows the pinched vent line.

<snip>
That looks like the cap area drain, not the vent.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: J.P. on March 19, 2010, 06:47:47 AM
I've run 2 seperate drain lines from the tank since removing the charcoal can(5/2006), mainly to avoid this kink problem. My tank is as bad as anybody's- doubt any correlation.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: jgrm1 on March 19, 2010, 08:34:28 AM
That looks like the cap area drain, not the vent.

Yep, you are right.  I should have paid more attention to that bright orange sticker under the tank.  The drain line should not affect pressure inside the tank.  I wonder why my tank does build pressure though.  A good place to start is pulling off that emissions canister and associated plumbing. 

-Jeff


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducpainter on March 19, 2010, 04:16:35 PM
Yep, you are right.  I should have paid more attention to that bright orange sticker under the tank.  The drain line should not affect pressure inside the tank.  I wonder why my tank does build pressure though.  A good place to start is pulling off that emissions canister and associated plumbing. 

-Jeff
I'd sooner think a cap problem, or the little rubber nub under the cap is blocking the hole in the cap.

If your emissions can is removed remove that black rubber piece too. It has no purpose.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: aglanixp on March 20, 2010, 05:25:45 AM
I took my 2007 S2R1000 to Battley Cycles in MD this week.  Service guy said no problem, he will start the paperwork.
While looking around I saw a 1098 with an aluminum tank! 
Made a couple of jokes with the salesperson about that tank not expanding.

Would be great to get an aluminum replacement for the monster.
not holding my breath though.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: duccarlos on March 21, 2010, 08:16:50 AM
My new tank was approved. Lets see how long it takes.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: accrocker on March 22, 2010, 02:34:01 PM
My tank was approved six months ago....still waiting for it to arrive. I cannot believe how slow the shipping process is. Are they hand carving the nylon tanks now??


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: muskrat on March 22, 2010, 05:49:37 PM
that sucks.  I got mine in two weeks.  check with another dealer just in case yours dropped the ball or call DNA.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on March 23, 2010, 02:01:00 AM
My tank was approved six months ago....still waiting for it to arrive. I cannot believe how slow the shipping process is. Are they hand carving the nylon tanks now??

what MY and color?

my 05 "Acid Yellow" took longer -- only year they made that color and fairly small number in the first place (<5000 made)

6 months isn't too bad.  just stay in touch with your dealer every month and ask them to double check the ETA.  ducati ships them by boat in a large shipment, and i imagine they aren't quick to make.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: chris on March 23, 2010, 01:38:25 PM
This is a serious issue because of the fire risk if the tank were to wear all the way through and allow gasoline to spill onto my ignition wiring and hot engine.  Obviously, a fuel leak occurring while riding the motorcycle could result in a crash, injury or death, and property damage.  I also cannot lift the fuel tank as designed by Ducati to service the motorcycle.

I think the fuel tank will break the ignition switch off the frame before it "rubs through" and leaks fuel. The tanks we manufacture are crosslinked polyethylene, aka PEX, not nylon (which is far more dense). The PEX tanks we have are incredibly durable and very very strong. I would imagine nylon to be equally or more strong than what we are accustomed to.

Further, PEX seems somewhat fire-retardant. We are on the wind up to do some more testing as part of some involvement I have with another industry.

My tank was approved six months ago....still waiting for it to arrive. I cannot believe how slow the shipping process is. Are they hand carving the nylon tanks now??

Nylon is difficult to manufacture, likely with many wasted parts. The nylon itself is about $400 per tank to purchase the raw material. Then they get painted and packaged for individual shipment, which means a minimum of 1.5 times the volume the tank occupies is now wasted on packaging. Now to ship only 100 tanks is more volume than a car. They can hire a private jet for a few $10,000 or they can put those and many more tanks in a container and drop it on a ship for a grand.

We have all become spoiled by how manufactured goods materialize out of thin air available at our slightest whim, but one cannot grow nylon tanks from thin air and have those teleported to your doorstep tomorrow (or next week or next month).

Something that really bothers me is how indignant some people are acting. Really? If putting Ducati out of business is that important to you, keep it up. Realistically, there isn't a safety problem; it's a cosmetic issue. Sure, this is a PR nightmare but imho, Ducati is doing far more for us Monster (and Sport Classic) owners than they could be.

Oh yeah, the original red tank on my 2005 S2R800 has a bulge or two and I just don't care. Nor can I be arsed to whinge to NHSTA or my dealer about it.

/rant


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: jgrm1 on March 23, 2010, 04:16:26 PM
I think the fuel tank will break the ignition switch off the frame before it "rubs through" and leaks fuel.

Well, if that's all, we are all just being silly.  You guys whose tanks are worn at least through the paint need to quit your whining, go to AutoZone, and find the closest matching touch up paint. 

Something that really bothers me is how indignant some people are acting. Really? If putting Ducati out of business is that important to you, keep it up. Realistically, there isn't a safety problem; it's a cosmetic issue.

...and a functional issue when the tank swells to the point where one can no longer operate the latch to raise their tank for service.  We should all disregard a major flaw and get off Ducati's back.

-Jeff


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: He Man on March 23, 2010, 04:33:06 PM
i dont know who said it was going to rub through and leak thats the most ridiculous thing ive heard. Its been several years since my tank started expanding (which goes back to 08 when i first bought it) and i havent gotten my tank replaced, i have crashed it severla times though.... I Went through the motions and couldnt get it replaced, then DNA siad to go to another dealer blah blah blah, and really i could care less for several reasons.

1) its not going to break anytime soon.
2) The swelling has given me 3/4 gallon of extra gas per fill up (wheres kopfjager to say im bull shitting cause he seems to want to do that all the time)
3) Plastic tanks are can crash several times without denting (and i find the bike or myself going latteral quite a few times to know this)

my MAIN concern is that the tank will expand so much on the bottom that the fuel pump no longer creates a good seal and just seeps gasoline onto my motor...


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Satellite smithy on March 23, 2010, 05:36:36 PM
Look-I want to sell the bike. I won't sell it and lie about the tank issue. Most people don't want to buy a bike with what they'd consider a major flaw. So currently, it's essentially costing me money.


It's not okay, and it needs to be fixed.



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: somegirl on March 23, 2010, 06:18:51 PM
It also limits the already-limited steering range.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: rockaduc on March 23, 2010, 11:20:30 PM
It also limits the already-limited steering range.

Exactly!!!!!  That, more than anything else is what bothers me about this.  I had to adjust my steering stops several times (before I received my replacement) b/c the tank was expanding and the controls would hit the sides.  I DON'T consider that merely a cosmetic issue.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: chris on March 23, 2010, 11:26:58 PM
my MAIN concern is that the tank will expand so much on the bottom that the fuel pump no longer creates a good seal and just seeps gasoline onto my motor...

THIS, I absolutely agree with. And should that time come, there are a few options besides throwing away that nylon tank. The first would be to use a viton o-ring. Viton is the material that is supposed to be used for fuel systems. However viton is 2 to 4 times as costly as rubber and buna, so the cheaper materials are used instead. The next step is something that works in some industries but a solution I'm not certain is something I would sell to customers: a thick flat gasket.

Yes, once fuel is dripping, now I'll agree to there being a problem.

Well, if that's all, we are all just being silly.  You guys whose tanks are worn at least through the paint need to quit your whining, go to AutoZone, and find the closest matching touch up paint. 

...and a functional issue when the tank swells to the point where one can no longer operate the latch to raise their tank for service.  We should all disregard a major flaw and get off Ducati's back.

-Jeff

Really? That's all you've got? Then quit. It's the easiest thing to do. Just pay someone to do it for you. People who are self reliant work to find a solution. I *have* removed a tank from a Monster S2R that wouldn't open because it was smashed up against the latch and key switch. But since it's impossible, I'll stay quiet rather than tell a lie. [roll]
(yes, the above paragraph is filled with, overflowing, and dripping with sarcasm)

There isn't a solution for this problem. So it is up to reasonable people to find a middle ground that is fair to everyone involved. Being ugly about the situation and putting down Ducati and their employees for trying to deliver you an exciting motorcycle doesn't help anything. And no, I'm not suggesting for you to completely not care, I just said I don't care. Gas stays in bike. Bike runs. My smile widens. World's problems minimized if even for a few moments.

And this isn't a major design flaw. Something about the situation is tricking the plastics industry. Maybe it is an additive in the fuel. Maybe it is ethanol. It doesn't matter. The solution will be from the plastics industry and won't be ready soon. And it won't be cheap enough to make motorcycle gas tanks out of anytime soon. The reason the 696/1100 series of tanks are expanding is that whatever is making nylon deform is also affecting cross linked polyethylene (PEX), which is not supposed to change shape AT ALL. I have observed deformation with PEX up to 2%.

Good times,
Chris


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: chris on March 23, 2010, 11:30:16 PM
Look-I want to sell the bike. I won't sell it and lie about the tank issue. Most people don't want to buy a bike with what they'd consider a major flaw. So currently, it's essentially costing me money.

It's not okay, and it needs to be fixed.

One workable solution is to retrofit a metal fuel tank from an EFI monster onto your bike.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on March 24, 2010, 02:18:01 AM
Yes, once fuel is dripping, now I'll agree to there being a problem.

this is already happened on several Multi's and at least one Monster (an S2R).  the problem is not the gasket, the tank expanded such that the hole was bigger than the pump mount.  i haven't got photos up yet, but on one Multi, when the base was removed the screw holes were oblong.

none of the bikes were in use when the fuel leak was discovered.  i imagine the expansion issue is slow enough so that a normal pre-ride inspection would pick it up, however, one cannot be certain -- if you have 2-3 drops in the wrong place at the wrong time... well..


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: jgrm1 on March 24, 2010, 04:04:56 AM
Really? That's all you've got? Then quit. It's the easiest thing to do. Just pay someone to do it for you. People who are self reliant work to find a solution.

Chris,

I appreciate your sarcasm.  It is ironic because if you knew me, you would know that I have been wrenching on bikes for over 20 years - mostly BMWs and old Triumphs.  You cannot own and enjoy old Brit bikes without being crafty and self-reliant.  Well, to your point, I suppose you can depending on the thickness of your wallet, but working on them is part of the experience.  Be careful about stereotyping.  

I recently bought my S2R1000 to ride - not to have to determine work arounds.  Before you say it, no, I did not want a Honda.  Yeah, I realize that as my tank swells to the point the latch does not work that I can unbolt the rear of the tank to remove it, but I do not think I am asking too much for features of the bike to work as intended at this stage of its life.

-Jeff


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: He Man on March 24, 2010, 06:19:29 AM
Mr I does have a point about resale.

It is a flaw in the bike that someone would look negatively at and it KILLs the resale value.

The tank has swelled to the point where my clip ons wont allow me to position them and use the steering lock anymore. Not that big of deal to me again because i use a disc lock.

But how can Ducati let their own bikes' resale value drop to shit is beyond me. Thats something I didnt think about because i just plan on keeping my bike until it blows up (who should i tlak to about getting my bike lit on fire?)

Now i have to go check my fuel pump for leaks. eh i have a spare metal tank sitting on the shelf.



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Satellite smithy on March 24, 2010, 07:22:49 AM
One workable solution is to retrofit a metal fuel tank from an EFI monster onto your bike.

Hey however Ducati wants to fix it is fine by me  ;)




Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: duccarlos on March 24, 2010, 09:41:39 AM
Funny. I actually like the look of the expanded tank on my bike. My only issue was having to use a screw driver to put the lash on and off and the steering lock. Other than that, I have no issues. That's mostly why I'm not pregnant doging about how long it takes them to replace it. Actually, if they take a bit longer, but actually fix the issue, then I'm going to complain even less.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: csp808 on March 24, 2010, 11:05:16 AM
One workable solution is to retrofit a metal fuel tank from an EFI monster onto your bike.
I thought the earlier models used a different fuel pump set up? When i asked ducshop about getting a carbon fiber tank like kop they showed me the carbon tank had no provision for a bolt in fuel pump.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: victor441 on March 24, 2010, 11:18:48 AM
Look-I want to sell the bike. I won't sell it and lie about the tank issue. Most people don't want to buy a bike with what they'd consider a major flaw. So currently, it's essentially costing me money.


It's not okay, and it needs to be fixed.



agree...FWIW own a steel tanked Monster that I love but is physically too small for me, want to trade up to an aircooled Multistrada but the tank issue has put that idea on hold until it is resolved with a permanent solution, have been following this thread and hoping Ducati comes through...


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: chris on March 24, 2010, 01:14:06 PM
Chris,

I appreciate your sarcasm.  It is ironic because if you knew me, you would know that I have been wrenching on bikes for over 20 years - mostly BMWs and old Triumphs ... I recently bought my S2R1000 to ride - not to have to determine work arounds.  Yeah, I realize that as my tank swells to the point the latch does not work that I can unbolt the rear of the tank to remove it, but I do not think I am asking too much for features of the bike to work as intended at this stage of its life.

-Jeff

Yeah... I hear you. It sucks, but it's the reality now. :P pregnant doging to vent is one thing ... some of the stuff I read on here (not from you, and I don't know who from, as I don't remember names) about lawsuits and the like are more than over-the-top.

But how can Ducati let their own bikes' resale value drop to shit is beyond me. Thats something I didnt think about because i just plan on keeping my bike until it blows up (who should i tlak to about getting my bike lit on fire?)

Now i have to go check my fuel pump for leaks. eh i have a spare metal tank sitting on the shelf.

Resale value? Man, they have preferred that resale value goes down. That's how new bike sales pick up! :) Nothing will compare to the 999 to 1098 transition...



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: csp808 on March 24, 2010, 03:32:31 PM
I don't see the correlation if a 2 year old bike is alot cheaper than the new one why would i buy the new bike. The 999 to 1098 situation had to do with the better bike being the same price as the used inferior bike.  


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: He Man on March 24, 2010, 04:16:19 PM
I don't see the correlation if a 2 year old bike is alot cheaper than the new one why would i buy the new bike. The 999 to 1098 situation had to do with the better bike being the same price as the used inferior bike.  


the 999 is suppose to hold its own against the 1098. not sure about 1198. theres your big gap, yet 2005 999s are still shit expensive. You could get a used 1098 for just about 2-3 grand more when the 999 shows up for about 9-10grand.

I thought the earlier models used a different fuel pump set up? When i asked ducshop about getting a carbon fiber tank like kop they showed me the carbon tank had no provision for a bolt in fuel pump.

so THATS why he doesnt ride his bike..... no fuel pump...who woudda dunk.  :P


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Duckintime on March 24, 2010, 04:31:24 PM
There are a few alternatives... if you come across a metal tank, one can always plumb an external fuel pump.
- "Fuel Cell" can also make you a tank
- Chris can amaze us some more with his talent and come up with a tank for FI  ;D
-Plumb an external pump for the carbie tanks that chris  designed.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducpainter on March 25, 2010, 02:56:19 PM
Yeah... I hear you. It sucks, but it's the reality now. :P pregnant doging to vent is one thing ... some of the stuff I read on here (not from you, and I don't know who from, as I don't remember names) about lawsuits and the like are more than over-the-top.

<snip>


Why?

They made a business decision that didn't work.

Why should the customers put more money out of pocket to fix the mistake?

I'm not advocating that Ducati go out of business, but you would think there would be a middle ground .


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Duckintime on March 25, 2010, 05:25:55 PM
Perhaps Ducati's middle ground is replacing the tanks. But to not get reassurance the expansion wont happen again is very tough to swallow. Like I mentioned earlier, all my gas powered garden/outdoor tools have plastic tanks... those tanks are in perfect shape. With the new monsters possibly having problems, its just inexcusable.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: chris on March 25, 2010, 11:23:39 PM
Why? They made a business decision that didn't work. Why should the customers put more money out of pocket to fix the mistake?
I'm not advocating that Ducati go out of business, but you would think there would be a middle ground .

The middle ground is going to be replacement upon such a time that the fuel tank doesn't hold fuel. Otherwise, the expanding will be an "undocumented feature". And a cosmetic one, at that.

It still isn't a "business decision". They didn't chose to have this happen. And you think they are going to spend a several million $ on new tanks? I don't think so.

There have been a number of issues on all kinds of products over the years where owners and manufactures get stuck in a bad deal. Ultimately, I don't see this being a safety issue. I am pretty sure that Ducati will be prompt to replace a tank that's actually leaking fuel when there's no apparent cause for it to. (which could be a safety issue)

What's a 2005 S2R 800 like mine worth right now? $5000? $6000? Either way, we're talking about a replacement part that's 1/3 to 1/2 the value of the vehicle. It doesn't make sense to do that over something that isn't a safety issue.

Does the bike run? Yes. Does it spill gas? No. Is the paint flaking off? No. Looks to me like Ducati is already doing far more than they could be (or have ever done before) in trying to please. This is a bit Lord of the Flies.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducpainter on March 26, 2010, 01:24:24 AM
The middle ground is going to be replacement upon such a time that the fuel tank doesn't hold fuel. Otherwise, the expanding will be an "undocumented feature". And a cosmetic one, at that.

It still isn't a "business decision". They didn't chose to have this happen. And you think they are going to spend a several million $ on new tanks? I don't think so.

<snip>
The business decision was one of switching to a different material on the tank.

I'm assuming they made that decision based on cost and it hasn't worked.

I would argue that a tank that doesn't operate as designed is more than a 'undocumented feature' and is not cosmetic. Just because you're willing to struggle to change a battery or service an air cleaner doesn't mean everyone is.

You are correct though. It is in no way a safety issue.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on March 26, 2010, 01:33:40 AM
The middle ground is going to be replacement upon such a time that the fuel tank doesn't hold fuel. Otherwise, the expanding will be an "undocumented feature". And a cosmetic one, at that.

It still isn't a "business decision". They didn't chose to have this happen. And you think they are going to spend a several million $ on new tanks? I don't think so.

There are other options and Ducati is working on them right now. 


Quote
There have been a number of issues on all kinds of products over the years where owners and manufactures get stuck in a bad deal. Ultimately, I don't see this being a safety issue. I am pretty sure that Ducati will be prompt to replace a tank that's actually leaking fuel when there's no apparent cause for it to. (which could be a safety issue)

You don't see it as a safety issue, but Ducati does which is part of why they are replacing tanks on bikes that are out of warranty (both of them) and with 30,000 miles on the clock.

Quote
What's a 2005 S2R 800 like mine worth right now? $5000? $6000? Either way, we're talking about a replacement part that's 1/3 to 1/2 the value of the vehicle. It doesn't make sense to do that over something that isn't a safety issue.

I respect your opinion, you know bikes.  However, a small number of tanks ARE leaking and Ducati is taking the cosmetic issue seriously.  If you had posted this 6 months ago I might have been discouraged but I have found Ducati more than willing and interested to try to resolve this.

Quote
Does the bike run? Yes. Does it spill gas? No. Is the paint flaking off? No. Looks to me like Ducati is already doing far more than they could be (or have ever done before) in trying to please. This is a bit Lord of the Flies.

well. uh..  nuts to your asthma!

best,

'tiz


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on March 26, 2010, 01:51:50 AM
You are correct though. It is in no way a safety issue.

My tank latch would not engage at all.  The dealer removed the latch so the tank would sit on the bike flat.  I put a bungee cord across the top so the tank would not bounce while I was riding


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducpainter on March 26, 2010, 02:09:24 AM
My tank latch would not engage at all.  The dealer removed the latch so the tank would sit on the bike flat.  I put a bungee cord across the top so the tank would not bounce while I was riding
I've ridden bikes with more wrong than that. ;D

Let me re-phrase...not usually a safety issue.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on March 26, 2010, 02:50:31 AM
I've ridden bikes with more wrong than that. ;D

Let me re-phrase...not usually a safety issue.

One bike, sure.  When I was 19, I had a CM400 that had a CB tank duct taped to it -- for like a month. 

Having the original tank swell to the point it is potentially unsafe to use (and there is a possibility it will leak directly onto the heads) is a safety issue.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: duccarlos on March 26, 2010, 02:51:35 AM
My biggest concern has always been the steering lock, which is more of a security concern than safety


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: somegirl on March 26, 2010, 06:42:16 AM
Does the bike run? Yes. Does it spill gas? No. Is the paint flaking off? No. Looks to me like Ducati is already doing far more than they could be (or have ever done before) in trying to please. This is a bit Lord of the Flies.

My paint is flaking off over a particularly noticeable tank tumor.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: duccarlos on March 26, 2010, 06:57:00 AM
My paint is flaking off over a particularly noticeable tank tumor.

Can paint flaking into your eyes be considered a safety issue?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: chris on March 26, 2010, 10:19:23 AM
So yes, all you folks with the recent quoting of my post: if you would have READ what I wrote and weren't all panty-bunched, you would realize that each case you mention are a great common sense middle-ground that are covered by what I wrote.

Paint flaking off: check
Leaking: check
Steering lock not functional: Oops missed that. Check

Absolutely.

Yeah, so I've said my piece and am going to peace out of this thread as I feel I've made my point.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: duccarlos on March 26, 2010, 10:22:20 AM
So yes, all you folks with the recent quoting of my post:

I like quoting.
When I was 19

80 years ago

Let me re-phrase...

I got nothing.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: howie on March 26, 2010, 11:01:29 AM
Can paint flaking into your eyes be considered a safety issue?

No.  You are supposed to wear proper eye protection :P


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: aglanixp on March 26, 2010, 12:17:31 PM
I got notice that my tank would be replaced today.  No specified delivery date...only 2 weeks from the time I dropped her off.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: duccarlos on March 27, 2010, 06:57:32 AM
Sounds like it was approved. After approval the factory has to ship it.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: He Man on March 27, 2010, 08:25:15 AM
Sounds like it was approved. After approval the factory has to ship it.

no they dont.  [roll] well that was just my case.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: jgrm1 on March 27, 2010, 02:12:08 PM
Guys,

So, has anyone else noticed a build up of pressure in their tank when opening the filler cap?  Is this normal or do I need to look for a clogged canister or an actual pinched vent line?

-Jeff


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Duckintime on March 27, 2010, 05:35:07 PM
Follow the vent line from under the tank. Mine hangs in the open, since I took off my charcoal canister.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Switters on March 31, 2010, 02:32:52 PM
Hey Folks,

Just wondering if anyone knows if the 2010 Monsters will suffer the same fate as the others regarding the tank expansion. 

I think I saw someone mentioning their '09 having problems, so I can only assume it's an identical tank?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducpainter on March 31, 2010, 02:56:15 PM
You should weigh your concerns in the sticky thread.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: lazarus7 on March 31, 2010, 04:06:10 PM
agreed, move to sticky, but;
my '09 696 just had its internal tank replaced under warranty, only took a couple weeks to arrive...


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on March 31, 2010, 04:12:34 PM
agreed, move to sticky, but;
my '09 696 just had its internal tank replaced under warranty, only took a couple weeks to arrive...


what were the symptoms?  my understanding is that those tanks are a totally different material from the non-panel type..



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Switters on March 31, 2010, 04:33:49 PM
Sorry.  Probably should have just stuck it here. 

So that's my question, I thought the tanks were different than those that have been having problems, but have they actually corrected the "problem" or just redesigned the shape of the tank? 

I've put an order in for a 2010 696, but if it's going to encounter this issue, I'd probably switch to a different bike... :-(


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Duckintime on March 31, 2010, 06:22:30 PM
Sorry.  Probably should have just stuck it here. 

So that's my question, I thought the tanks were different than those that have been having problems, but have they actually corrected the "problem" or just redesigned the shape of the tank? 

I've put an order in for a 2010 696, but if it's going to encounter this issue, I'd probably switch to a different bike... :-(
I wouldnt let that stop you from ordering one. The bike far out weighs the possibilities of  any tank issues. The tank is emission control. So its even warrantied further than the standard warranty
All bikes have their issues. So buying something else isnt going to guarantee anything.
A few brands come to mind that are more "terminal" than a expanding tank. Just my 2 cents


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on April 01, 2010, 01:53:33 AM
I wouldnt let that stop you from ordering one. The bike far out weighs the possibilities of  any tank issues. The tank is emission control. So its even warrantied further than the standard warranty
All bikes have their issues. So buying something else isnt going to guarantee anything.
A few brands come to mind that are more "terminal" than a expanding tank. Just my 2 cents


i agree.  i started this whole thread and effort and so far, i think Ducati's response has been very good.  i am still going to push for a recall, but they are replacing *every* expanded tank that comes thru the door -- the only problems have been with individual dealers who don't understand the process.

moreover, the warranties are useful but Ducati has replaced tanks far outside the warranties.  they know this is a problem. 

i said i'd like to avoid a lawsuit and i might get my wish.  that would be nice -- how many attorneys will say that? 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: csp808 on April 01, 2010, 12:46:57 PM
Sorry.  Probably should have just stuck it here.  

So that's my question, I thought the tanks were different than those that have been having problems, but have they actually corrected the "problem" or just redesigned the shape of the tank?  

I've put an order in for a 2010 696, but if it's going to encounter this issue, I'd probably switch to a different bike... :-(
I'm kinda with you on that. When i bought this bike I was planning on keeping it for at least 10 to 12 years. This tank issue has me concerned what its going to mean for me to keep it that long. Looking back knowing what i know now i likely would have chosen differently. But I must agree with duckintime also as these are some kick ass bikes.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Heath on April 03, 2010, 06:59:41 AM
I got the call that my tank is in.  :o


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Dave328 on April 05, 2010, 02:06:24 AM
Started the peperwork with my dealer friday. Now we wait..... [coffee]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Heath on April 06, 2010, 02:54:49 PM
Tank is replaced :)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: jgrm1 on April 09, 2010, 01:19:30 AM
My tank is on order.  All it took was emailing the Service Manager of my nearest dealer photos of the front of the tank rubbing against the ignition switch assembly and the right side frame pad not lining up with the frame (same photos posted above).  I asked if there are any changes to the new tanks so this does not repeat.  He told me that they have not seen any reoccurrence with replacement tanks, but if it takes two years to manifest, I am not sure they would, yet.  I will ask the installer when the new tank arrives to compare it with the original and report my findings.

-Jeff


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Heath on April 09, 2010, 01:49:12 PM
We looked at the new one vs the old and the only differences we saw was the bottom of the tank, right above where the battery sits is bigger.  This was also confirmed when we tried to close the tank.  My PCIII was sitting on my battery but the tank would not go down with it there.  So now I have to find a new spot for my PCIII or get one of the smaller A123 type batteries.  I will move it for now.

The insides of the tank looked exactly the same.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Dave328 on April 11, 2010, 11:10:35 AM
FWIW, my dealer told me the replacement tanks were different and no more swelling should occur. He couldn't tell me what was different though. ???


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: duccarlos on April 12, 2010, 04:48:32 AM
Tank arrived on Friday. Took just over a week to get. Not sure if that is because it's a Dark, but I'm taking it in tomorrow to replace. The tanks are still the same, but I'm going to buy an additive that to deal with the ethanol.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: jgrm1 on April 14, 2010, 11:17:43 AM
My tank is on order.  All it took was emailing the Service Manager of my nearest dealer photos of the front of the tank rubbing against the ignition switch assembly and the right side frame pad not lining up with the frame (same photos posted above).  I asked if there are any changes to the new tanks so this does not repeat.  He told me that they have not seen any reoccurrence with replacement tanks, but if it takes two years to manifest, I am not sure they would, yet.  I will ask the installer when the new tank arrives to compare it with the original and report my findings.

-Jeff

My tank is already in.  It took only a week to recieve it.  I have an appointment this Saturday to have it installed.

-Jeff


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: duccarlos on April 15, 2010, 03:59:49 AM
Mine is installed. Now I just need to pick it up.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Duckintime on April 15, 2010, 09:08:21 AM
Glanced at my bike on the way out to work... had my tank replaced 11 months ago. Guess what, mis fitting and dimpling again.  [bang] [bang]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Satellite smithy on April 15, 2010, 09:10:10 AM
Glanced at my bike on the way out to work... had my tank replaced 11 months ago. Guess what, mis fitting and dimpling again.  [bang] [bang]

So, out of curiousity,  do you still stand by your previous statement?

I wouldnt let that stop you from ordering one. The bike far out weighs the possibilities of  any tank issues. The tank is emission control. So its even warrantied further than the standard warranty
All bikes have their issues. So buying something else isnt going to guarantee anything.
A few brands come to mind that are more "terminal" than a expanding tank. Just my 2 cents



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Duckintime on April 15, 2010, 06:09:01 PM
So, out of curiousity,  do you still stand by your previous statement?

Glad you asked.. and honestly, I do feel jaded about it. The bike does everything I want it to, its a great designed bike for my needs. Had it finally dialed in.  But for Ducati to come up short on a gas tank design?? If it was a rat bike, I wouldnt care. Would it stop me from buying a new ducati? I dont think so, but it would be something in the back of my mind. Id rather have the fuel tank issues than some of the probs from other bikes.
On the bright side, its not a toyota.... my throttle does go back to idle  [cheeky]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: duccarlos on April 16, 2010, 09:33:10 AM
Got mine back. Will be using the enzyme to counter act the ethanol.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: jgrm1 on April 18, 2010, 07:48:03 AM
Got mine back. Will be using the enzyme to counter act the ethanol.

What enzyme?

-Jeff


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: duccarlos on April 19, 2010, 05:00:42 AM
There's an additive that people have been using mostly on boat engines to counter the ethenol. My local dealer is starting to sell it to avoid these issues. I need to check if I have to add it every time I fill up. I got a flyer, but my daughter got a hold of it, so it has been "misplaced".


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Charlief on April 20, 2010, 04:22:10 PM
Soltron Enzyme Fuel Treatment ?

Boaters also use Marine Stabil


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: duccarlos on April 21, 2010, 05:08:35 AM
Soltron Enzyme Fuel Treatment ?

Sounds familiar.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ghosthound on April 26, 2010, 06:05:29 AM
i really havent been keeping up with this whole ordeal...

i joined the yahoo group, filed the NHTSA report, got my tank replaced etc...

but my concern is that if the tank is the exact same as the original, its just a matter of time before it begins to swell, flake, etc..

Anyway its comforting hearing that ducati has been honoring tank replacements for out of warranty bikes but at the same time, im sure eventually the tanks will stop being produced... etc...  needless to say... ive been keeping my eye on the tank and if i notice it starting to experience any of the same issues ill probably just resort to selling the bike and picking up a newer monster... or saving up for a streetfighter  [moto]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: duccarlos on April 26, 2010, 07:06:50 AM
From what I understand the tanks will eventually suffer through the same issue. From what I've heard from the dealers, a new tank will be shipped out that will not have the same issue, but like the elusive unicorn, we have not seen it yet.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: He Man on April 27, 2010, 08:25:07 AM
From what I understand the tanks will eventually suffer through the same issue. From what I've heard from the dealers, a new tank will be shipped out that will not have the same issue, but like the elusive unicorn, we have not seen it yet.

i saw one and killed it.

What numbers are you geting for your fill ups

im hitting 3.6gallons right now. i ahvent checked, but i think its leaking around hte edges. :/


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: duccarlos on April 27, 2010, 08:41:26 AM
Does anything ever go right with your bike?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Satellite smithy on April 27, 2010, 09:43:53 AM
Does anything ever go right with your bike?

If it was a horse.....




I would shoot it.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: He Man on April 27, 2010, 10:12:15 AM
If it was a horse.....




I would shoot it.

Is there such a thing as the glue factory for bikes?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Satellite smithy on April 27, 2010, 11:01:32 AM
Is there such a thing as the glue factory for bikes?

It's called ebay.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: IamSMC on April 28, 2010, 02:25:31 PM
Just purchased this past week a 2005 Monster S2R 800 with approximately 5400 miles.
At time of purchase, I was aware of the tank issue, which this bike did have.
Long story short, this bike was a good deal that I couldn't pass up.

Just got off the phone today with the service manager of Ducati NY and was advised that Ducati is no longer honoring warranty claims on the tank issues if the tank is just showing typical sighs of expansion.
He further advised that a warranty claim may be covered in cases where the tank is leaking or other extreme no-start issues.

Can anyone advise further.

TIA


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on April 28, 2010, 04:33:03 PM
Just purchased this past week a 2005 Monster S2R 800 with approximately 5400 miles.
At time of purchase, I was aware of the tank issue, which this bike did have.
Long story short, this bike was a good deal that I couldn't pass up.

Just got off the phone today with the service manager of Ducati NY and was advised that Ducati is no longer honoring warranty claims on the tank issues if the tank is just showing typical sighs of expansion.
He further advised that a warranty claim may be covered in cases where the tank is leaking or other extreme no-start issues.

Can anyone advise further.

TIA

They are idiots.  As of the last time I spoke with my contact at Ducati NA, they are replacing any tank that shows any significant expansion.  They issued a tech bulletin for the SC tank expansion which is a half-measure fix just in case the tank expands nad contracts (as far as I understand).

If your tank rubbers are off the frame and/or the front is touching the keyswitch, it will be replaced.

You are the third individual I've heard from that has been told that BULLSHIT story by Ducati NY. 

Take your bike and all your business to another dealer.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: howie on April 28, 2010, 06:26:14 PM
They are idiots.  As of the last time I spoke with my contact at Ducati NA, they are replacing any tank that shows any significant expansion.  They issued a tech bulletin for the SC tank expansion which is a half-measure fix just in case the tank expands nad contracts (as far as I understand).

If your tank rubbers are off the frame and/or the front is touching the keyswitch, it will be replaced.

You are the third individual I've heard from that has been told that BULLSHIT story by Ducati NY. 

Take your bike and all your business to another dealer.

 [thumbsup]  The dealer's job is to document the claim, DNA makes the decision.  Try another dealer.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: IamSMC on April 29, 2010, 05:20:23 AM
They are idiots.  As of the last time I spoke with my contact at Ducati NA, they are replacing any tank that shows any significant expansion.  They issued a tech bulletin for the SC tank expansion which is a half-measure fix just in case the tank expands nad contracts (as far as I understand).

If your tank rubbers are off the frame and/or the front is touching the keyswitch, it will be replaced.
You are the third individual I've heard from that has been told that BULLSHIT story by Ducati NY. 

Take your bike and all your business to another dealer.

Its doing exactly that ^^^


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: IamSMC on April 29, 2010, 05:22:41 AM
Try another dealer.


ducatiz, howie:

I'm taking both your advice.

Thx


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: IamSMC on April 29, 2010, 05:54:33 AM
Read this on another forum:

"...As for the plastic tanks, while they[DNA] have been ignoring the issue for sometime now, they have as of late come to their senses. They've recently (within the last couple days), announced that they are no longer replacing tanks with the same tanks because they'll just swell down the road, instead they're shimming them out to keep them secure. As of right now, they're making a replacement tank that will not have this problem for all Sport Classics. Regardless of being in or out of warranty, they're replacing EVERY sportclassic tank when the new tank comes out. So rest assured, within the near future you'll have a tank that won't have this problem anymore. And the tanks aren't actually Ducati, the company that makes them for Ducati and other motorcycle brands is called Acerbis. So while everyone thinks Ducati has been ignoring the issue, it's actually been Acerbis, Ducati's been trying to get compensation from Acerbis to fix all the tanks. ..."

Anyone else read about this?

Good news?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on April 29, 2010, 07:09:47 AM
Rumor number 900

The other ones say things like a metal repl and so on.  No one says the dealer name or a source.  Ducati has not and will not say anything until a final fix is in because everything they say could be used in a lawsuit.

Part of why I can't stand ducati.ms anymore.  Just crap.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Fergus on April 30, 2010, 08:58:40 AM
Soltron Enzyme Fuel Treatment ?

Boaters also use Marine Stabil
Anyone got any more info on this? My tank's still OK, but I know I can't rely that Ducati will take care of me when it does go bad. I'd like to do something to forestall that...


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: duccarlos on April 30, 2010, 11:01:53 AM
Anyone got any more info on this? My tank's still OK, but I know I can't rely that Ducati will take care of me when it does go bad. I'd like to do something to forestall that...

I just bought a bottle of Startron my my dealer. They basically told me to add a cap worth to the tank if the bike was going to sit for about a week.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Fergus on April 30, 2010, 01:19:18 PM
I just bought a bottle of Startron my my dealer. They basically told me to add a cap worth to the tank if the bike was going to sit for about a week.
And this counteracts the ill effects of the ethanol? Is it in fact ethanol that causes this problem? Is it the ethanol expanding, causing a pressure build-up, or is it a chemical reaction with the plastic tank material?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on April 30, 2010, 01:29:53 PM
There is no guarantee that a stabilizer will help

I think a more likely option is coating the tank.  Multi owners report good results with their tanks and caswells


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Fergus on April 30, 2010, 02:56:59 PM
I think a more likely option is coating the tank.  Multi owners report good results with their tanks and caswells
Cool, thanks. I might just do that. Here's a link, just in case anyone else is thinking about it.
http://www.caswellplating.com/aids/epoxygas.htm (http://www.caswellplating.com/aids/epoxygas.htm)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on April 30, 2010, 04:20:55 PM
Cool, thanks. I might just do that. Here's a link, just in case anyone else is thinking about it.
http://www.caswellplating.com/aids/epoxygas.htm (http://www.caswellplating.com/aids/epoxygas.htm)

I've spoken with them (Caswell) several times and they are convinced their coating will have no problems with the nylon/PA tank surface.  Lance Caswell said to rough it up first but that their epoxy based coating would stick to anything except PE (polyethylene).  Quite a few plastic tanks on many vehicles are made from HDPE etc but the Ducati tanks on the bikes UP TO the 696/1100 the later style are all nylon/PA.  I don't know what the later style are made of.  If you look on the underside, there will be a marking as to the composition which is present to comply with EU recycling regs (I am not kidding, my 2005 bike has a "recycle" triangle and a marking with "PA6" next to it -- meaning "polyamide 6" the particular nylon compound)

I don't know that the stabilizers will work.  If ethanol is in fact the problem, then it will still penetrate the tank's inner surface (which by the way is NOT coated at all, my new one still had "artifact bubbles" from the rotomolding process.. soft and could be "popped" wth?)

On the other hand, I have been led to believe the US-spec tanks are actually a different compound from Europe and the rest of the world, which is entirely possible as only Canada and Mexico follow US EPA's regs for things like permeation (which is a standard for plastic tanks).  Thus, it could be a defect in the nylon polymer itself which simply is reacting to any solvent (of which there are half a dozen present in US pump gas -- pick your poison:  xylene, toulene, ethylbenzene, etc etc)

My gut feeling (as I have said before) is that Ducati will start coating the tanks with something like Caswell when they go out the door.  It is far cheaper than coming up with a new tank design, whether a new plastic or metal and, quite simply, solves the problem in the cheapest way possible.

I've pushed the DNA people to start testing tank coatings as I think it's probably the best solution for them and for us.  I can't imagine the cost to buy material and coat 10,000 tanks is but a fraction of the cost to replace 10,000 tanks.

That being said, it really comes down to whether or not the coating works and sticks.  If it does and they start doing it on the good tanks, then I consider that a win for everyone.

But I don't think ethanol stabilizers will help too much against the tank problems.  CANT HURT but I don't think they will stop it too much.  

I don't think you need a virgin tank to do the coating either.  Just drain and clean your un-expanded tank and let it sit for a while to air out, then do the prep for the coating (Caswell says to put a handful of nails in the tanks and shake it around  ??? uhh sure.. )   My gut feeling as an armchair chem eng is that it will work fine.



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: hellobrooklyn on May 04, 2010, 10:13:25 PM
Um, I was wondering why the latch was so tricky and controls were not only coming close, but actually touching the tank at full lock on the <7k mile otherwise mint '06 S2R I just picked up.  Why do I feel like Ducati is not going to show me much love as the 2nd owner should this become a bigger problem?  :-\

Glad I at least know about the issue now.  Definitely signing up.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on May 05, 2010, 01:52:31 AM
Um, I was wondering why the latch was so tricky and controls were not only coming close, but actually touching the tank at full lock on the <7k mile otherwise mint '06 S2R I just picked up.  Why do I feel like Ducati is not going to show me much love as the 2nd owner should this become a bigger problem?  :-\

Glad I at least know about the issue now.  Definitely signing up.

Ducati has been replacing tanks for subsequent owners.  The warranty is transferrable and they have been replacing tanks out of warranty with no questions asked.  The only problem has been dealers.

This isn't to say that Ducati might be working on some guidelines.  I can't be sure, but my feeling is that they believe only SOME tanks expand beyond safe dimensions and that SOME expansion is acceptable.  This is the tack they took with the recent bulletin for the Sport Classics, which advises shimming the tank mounts for expanded tanks which are still under a certain width.


I know someone who has procured an expanded tank and is paying to have a laboratory run tests on it to see why it's expanded.  I don't know if they plan to share their info with me or what.  We will see.



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: jgrm1 on May 07, 2010, 05:24:32 AM
Did anyone else's dealer remove the charcoal canister as part of their tank replacement?  My original tank would build up pressure (see above posts), but my new tank - sans canister - does not.  Hmmm.

-Jeff 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Uncle Mofo on May 07, 2010, 11:00:37 AM
My new replacement tank less than a year old, it's already pressing againt the ignition swich. Just like the other one did  :'(  And the charcoal canister was removed back in '07   


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Duckintime on May 07, 2010, 11:58:22 AM
charcoal canister doesnt have anything to do with the swelling of the tanks. Wish it did


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: monsterblur on May 07, 2010, 01:19:11 PM
My bike is an 2006 and I'm the 2nd owner.
Went to my local dealer for their opinion 3 weeks ago after seeing this thread . Was contacted today by the dealer and told my tank replacement was approved and the new tank should arrive in 2 weeks.
Hopefully the same swelling issue will not happen but.....
Duc's are one of a kind and I hope this small issue does not deter people.
If I had a choice, I'd buy another Duc over anything.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Blackout on May 11, 2010, 11:59:13 AM
My dealer said they would not replace my tank since it is not original to the bike. I had a steel tank originally that leaked at the hinge and I effed it up trying to seal it. So I bought a good used plastic tank as a replacement. Swollen all to hell. >:(


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Satellite smithy on May 11, 2010, 12:15:47 PM
My dealer said they would not replace my tank since it is not original to the bike. I had a steel tank originally that leaked at the hinge and I effed it up trying to seal it. So I bought a good used plastic tank as a replacement. Swollen all to hell. >:(

Do you still have the metal tank?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on May 11, 2010, 01:01:00 PM
Yeah the warranty goes by the vin only.  Can't do that


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Blackout on May 11, 2010, 02:29:38 PM
Metal tank is in my parts bin


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Satellite smithy on May 11, 2010, 05:41:57 PM
Metal tank is in my parts bin

I would just send it to Nate and get it fixed.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on May 11, 2010, 06:52:35 PM
Yeah.  And be happy you have it.   


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: duccarlos on May 12, 2010, 03:17:28 AM
Yeah.  And be happy you have it.   

+1 make the beast with two backs the plastic tanks.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on May 12, 2010, 03:35:23 AM
Lol haven't you defiled enough of them? 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: duccarlos on May 12, 2010, 05:30:07 AM
Not the tanks.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Blackout on May 12, 2010, 08:06:01 AM
Yeah.  And be happy you have it.   
Happiness is overrated.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: IamSMC on May 13, 2010, 05:40:36 AM
Happiness is overrated.

Ain't that the truth


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: somegirl on May 15, 2010, 01:11:51 PM
Finally got my replacement tank!  Took 4 months to ship from when replacement was approved.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on May 15, 2010, 04:47:22 PM
Finally got my replacement tank!  Took 4 months to ship from when replacement was approved.


have you had it installed yet?

see if you can eyeball the old and new tank insides

my new tank looked different inside, but it may have just been unstained.  gasoline stains.



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Satellite smithy on May 15, 2010, 05:01:36 PM
have you had it installed yet?

see if you can eyeball the old and new tank insides

my new tank looked different inside, but it may have just been unstained.  gasoline stains.



It's been installed and I haven't picked it up yet.


I'll take a look if they have the old one handy too.


Still selling it ASAP.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on May 15, 2010, 05:19:49 PM
It's been installed and I haven't picked it up yet.


I'll take a look if they have the old one handy too.


Still selling it ASAP.

be a good boy and line the tank as well.   keep your receipts.  if Ducati starts lining their tanks then you might be able to hit them up for the cost.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Satellite smithy on May 15, 2010, 07:08:41 PM
be a good boy and line the tank as well.   keep your receipts.  if Ducati starts lining their tanks then you might be able to hit them up for the cost.


I already informed the likely buyer of the tank issue. He can do as he sees fit.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: He Man on May 15, 2010, 07:11:56 PM
Schools about to be out and i got time to take it to the shop. Its across state lines, so its not an easy trip to make if i drop off the bike and take the train home, and then take the train there back etc...it'll cost me over $50 in tolls and train fare just to make the 4 legs of this trip!

but did you guys have to leave the bike with them to get it inspected? I fear they will take 3 weeks to insecpt the bike and another month to order the tank, and another month to install it..when the visual confirimation is enough to say the tank doesnt fit...


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Satellite smithy on May 16, 2010, 05:09:58 AM
You're too used to dealing with idiots. They'll just look at it for five mins, take the VIN, and order one.


Then you bring it back when the new one comes in and they'll swap it out in a day.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: somegirl on May 16, 2010, 08:43:10 AM
^^ Yes, it was a 5-minute once-over along with some picture-taking for the "inspection".

Then I went home and he called me a day or so later to tell me it was approved.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: rockaduc on May 16, 2010, 09:13:43 AM
^^ Yes, it was a 5-minute once-over along with some picture-taking for the "inspection".

Then I went home and he called me a day or so later to tell me it was approved.

+1 that was my experience as well.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: He Man on May 16, 2010, 10:12:38 AM
Hopefully this will be the case.

Goldcoast said: theres no such thing
Ducati Soho said yes but pretty much lied straight to my face on "the tank is on its way"


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on May 16, 2010, 10:33:10 AM
Hopefully this will be the case.

Goldcoast said: theres no such thing
Ducati Soho said yes but pretty much lied straight to my face on "the tank is on its way"

"there's no such thing" what?



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: He Man on May 16, 2010, 10:48:07 AM
this was a while ago, when i had my valve guides replaced, i showed them the tank issue, and they said, theres no such thing as an expanding tank, my tank just needs to get adjusted ( tank mount, tank latch and rubber stops)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on May 16, 2010, 11:48:07 AM
this was a while ago, when i had my valve guides replaced, i showed them the tank issue, and they said, theres no such thing as an expanding tank, my tank just needs to get adjusted ( tank mount, tank latch and rubber stops)

i wonder what they are saying now that Ducati has replaced thousands of them?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: He Man on May 16, 2010, 03:32:19 PM
I dont care about them enough to ask. I went there for a warranty once out of the blue. They kept giving me various reasons as to why they need "another week". and then when i yelled at them, the parts were magically there.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Wonked on May 17, 2010, 04:06:40 AM
Just added my name to the list. The gas tank on my 2007 M695 is now nearly impossible to latch/dislatch. Anyone know a good dealer in Atlanta-area who will take care of this?

The place I bought it is no longer in business (Atlanta Triumph Ducati)...


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: duccarlos on May 17, 2010, 05:42:22 AM
Just added my name to the list. The gas tank on my 2007 M695 is now nearly impossible to latch/dislatch. Anyone know a good dealer in Atlanta-area who will take care of this?

The place I bought it is no longer in business (Atlanta Triumph Ducati)...

Take it to NPR Ducati, but they're not close. They're almost to Athens. If it wasn't a warranty issue, I would take it to the Duc Shop, but they don't do warranty.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: duccarlos on May 17, 2010, 05:47:16 AM
I wouldn't recommend them, but you can probably also check with Atlanta Motor World up in Alpharetta or there's also the BMW dealership that sells Ducs. I still recommend taking it to NPR. You're taking your chances with the other 2.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Wonked on May 17, 2010, 06:00:19 AM
Duccarlos - just got off the phone with Brett and NPR Ducati. He said I could email photos to them, along with the VIN and they'd order me a new tank - should arrive within a month from submission of photos.

Brett was totally up to speed with the problems plastic tank owners are having.

Good recommendation (it would appear).

Thanks!


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: duccarlos on May 17, 2010, 07:44:41 AM
NPR is hands down the best dealership in Georgia.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on May 17, 2010, 07:45:37 AM
That is very cool that they'll let you send photos.  I'm sure they doublecheck when you bring the bike in.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Wonked on May 17, 2010, 08:50:29 AM
That is very cool that they'll let you send photos.  I'm sure they doublecheck when you bring the bike in.

Not sure why, assuming they are being paid to do the work. I'm not driving an hour each way to replace a perfectly good tank.

In any event, it'd be fine with me if they checked it out.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Blackout on May 18, 2010, 06:27:57 AM
Anyone know how big these tanks will get? I took off the rear pivot mount and lengthened the holes so that I could slide the tank back a bit further. The tank fits properly again for the time being. [beer]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on May 18, 2010, 12:08:48 PM
My old tank was almost 6 inches bigger in circumference. Your effort may be fine for you.  Some tanks are expanding irregularly.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: aglanixp on May 18, 2010, 12:46:59 PM
Got the call that my tank is in.  Take it in on Friday to do the swap.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: DarkStaR on May 20, 2010, 06:45:08 PM
Fcuk, the paint on my tank is cracking on the left side near the rubber support.  [bang]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: wantingaduc on May 21, 2010, 09:46:39 AM
Has anyone had problems with expansion on a replacement tank and if so has Ducati stepped up to cover a second tank?
I had the original one on my 06 620 dark replaced last summer but I noticed the other day that I had to readjust the steering stop, which was the first indication of the expansion the other time.

I bought the EverRed warranty in hopes that if anything went wrong with the bike I'd be covered but I get the sinking feeling that they will try and dodge the tank if it actually expanding again.

jimi


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on May 21, 2010, 01:22:37 PM
Jimi

I have guys on my list who have gotten 2 replacements.  Dna is replacing them. 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Bill in OKC on May 21, 2010, 07:36:42 PM
I am in an odd situation.  Oklahoma still allows 100% gas but I hear the Federal Gov. is going to force our state to sell only e10 in the future.  I use 100% gas now so my tank has not expanded yet, but I am afraid it will when e10 becomes mandated and is the only fuel available.  By then my warranty will probably be expired and I'll be SOL.  I'd like to get an ethanol-proof tank but unless mine expands, there will be no replacement...  Should I start running e10 now so I can get a replacement tank while I still can?  e10 sux.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on May 22, 2010, 12:40:21 AM
Bill are you sure there is no e10 in OK? 

Pm coming


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Bill in OKC on May 24, 2010, 08:45:53 AM
Bill are you sure there is no e10 in OK? 

Pm coming

There is e10 and 100% gas available here.  They passed a state law that requires the stations to label the pumps so I can choose.  I put 100% gas in my vehicles and lawn equipment.  Sometimes I don't have a choice but if I have to buy e10 out somewhere, I generally use most of it up and can fill up with real gas before I get home.  Generally you can count on Valero to have real gas around here, the other stations vary by location.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Old-Duckman on May 25, 2010, 12:59:49 PM
06 S2R 1000. This spring unable to unlatch.

Called dealer , he called Ducati, they want to have me bring up the bike and take pix.

My Question:
(Probably covered before but I don't want to sift through 38 pages of posts...)

Should I put my evaporative canister back on the bike before taking it to the dealer?

How 'bout original exhaust?

My guess is, canister, Yes. Exhaust, No need.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on May 25, 2010, 01:31:24 PM
Neither.   Mine is heavily modded, pc3n no belt covers, full exhaust, cut airbox, evap long gone.  They replaced it wo a tweet.



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: jgrm1 on May 26, 2010, 04:52:57 AM
Should I put my evaporative canister back on the bike before taking it to the dealer?

My dealer actually removed my canister when replacing my tank.

-Jeff


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: DUCURTI on May 26, 2010, 01:37:10 PM
2007 s4rs.

I joined the list today. Can someone give me the short version of how the replacement process works??


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Duckintime on May 26, 2010, 02:31:15 PM
Go to dealership, they take pics, you take bike, they send in claim, call you when its in.
In my case, they started the paper work before they saw the bike. My bike was in the shop for about a week or 2.
Dont let your dealership give you the run around or pass the buck. Ducati knows about this.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on May 27, 2010, 01:56:13 AM
I managed to pick up a tank that I can send out for lab testing. 

Stay tuned.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: mitt on May 27, 2010, 04:45:43 AM
I still think this is a multiple variable problem.  I am posting because it is boating season again, and I got to use my 5 gallon plastic boat tank last week.  That thing was expanded like a ballon.  It had been sitting all winter with the cap on and vent closed.  I had a hard time even twisting the cap off it was under so much pressure. 

It gradually goes back to "original" shape after a day or 2 sitting with the vent open.  But, it is thin, flexible material, so it doesn't have a memory.   If it was a material that yielded plastic (irreversible), then it would do the same thing as the monster tanks are doing.  So, I think it may be a combination of pressure, poor venting, poor materials, and maybe ethanol is a catalyst.

It would be fun to install a pressure gauge on a sealed tank with some gas in it, and then record the pressure with time and temperature.

mitt


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: DUCURTI on May 27, 2010, 05:28:23 AM
So, I think it may be a combination of pressure, poor venting, poor materials, and maybe ethanol is a catalyst.

mitt

That is sad considering that it's Ducati were talking about here. None of the $8000 Suzuki motorcycles I've owned have had expanding gas tanks.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: scduc on May 27, 2010, 04:35:57 PM
How long will Ducati continue to make tanks for the monsters with problems? I've had mine replaced once, and I am afraid if it happens again, that it's up to me for replacement. Which I would do, want to do, but I refuse to have a deformed tank. I had mine replace less then a year ago, and I just laid it down. With some good scratches. My thought is to have it repainted, and while I'm at it, have the inside coated. Has anyone had any luck with this?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on May 27, 2010, 04:58:14 PM
No idea how long Ducati will make the tanks.  I have a feeling that whatever EOL plans they had for these tanks has changed, but I know nothing yet.

As far as coating, a good number of people have reported doing it (Caswell seems to be the preferred).  A lot of riders on the Multi board have used it and are reporting that it is fine.  I don't know what one would look for it "not working" which would mean it stops stickign to the tank.

I plan to have mine coated, from my correspondence with Lance Caswell, their formula will stick to the polyamide tank just fine.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Dave328 on May 28, 2010, 02:54:26 PM
Just got the call today from my dealer. Tank is in! [beer] That's 8 weeks to the day of starting the paperwork. I just wish my battery had waited a few more weeks before kicking the bucket! Getting that tank off sucked balls!!! :'(


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: DUCURTI on May 29, 2010, 05:43:06 AM
Just dropped my bike off at Duc Pond Motorsports in winchester, VA. They took one look at it and said they wouldn't have any problem getting this one approved. The tech described the tank as "having more dimples than a golf ball". He was also surprised that the ignition didn't cease to function due to the amount of pressure the tank was putting on it. I hope this goes quickly as I'd hate to miss out on the majority of the 2010 riding season.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Blake on May 29, 2010, 07:52:43 AM
Still waiting on my tank, since December. 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: DUCURTI on May 29, 2010, 11:33:50 AM
Still waiting on my tank, since December. 

OK this is what I would call terrible news.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on May 29, 2010, 01:35:42 PM
OK this is what I would call terrible news.

it depends on the color

mine is the Acid Yellow, which was only on the '05 models.  other colors have quicker ship.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: DUCURTI on May 30, 2010, 02:42:55 AM




it depends on the color

mine is the Acid Yellow, which was only on the '05 models.  other colors have quicker ship.

 I've got the white with red rally stripe which (I think) is pretty standard.

That makes sense and makes me feel alot better about this. I still can't figure out why I chose Memorial Day weekend to voluntarily drop my bike off for service.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: aglanixp on May 30, 2010, 04:15:44 AM
Finally picked up the bike yesterday from Battley Cycles in Maryland. 
I dropped it off to do the swap on Friday of last week, and it was supposed to be done on Saturday.

They called me Saturday to say they may have broke the quick disconnect nipple while pulling the tank and they would need to order the part.
They got the new part in, (which includes the entire fuel pump assembly) and installed it and the new tank without charging me a penny.

One week total.
Very happy with the service and communication.
And the ride yesterday was fantastic!


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: somegirl on May 30, 2010, 10:33:28 AM
it depends on the color

mine is the Acid Yellow, which was only on the '05 models.  other colors have quicker ship.

My '07 gloss black took 4 months.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on May 30, 2010, 02:14:31 PM
I should have said, mine is the Acid Yellow color and took 6 months.

I think there are a lot of factors affecting delivery schedules.



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: DarkStaR on May 30, 2010, 03:28:21 PM
Just made my claim yesterday...and now the waiting game begins.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: lazarus7 on June 01, 2010, 05:11:41 AM
wooo hoo got the call this morning....
jeff from euro cycles called to inform me that the red/ white stripe tank for my '07 s4rs has arrived....
appointment set for tomorrow 2pm, he estimates an hour and a half to swap tanks....
drain fuel, exchange fuel pump assembly and hardware, swap....

initial claim , and post here, March 4 2010, so just about three months end to end....


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: duccarlos on June 01, 2010, 05:19:57 AM
I guess the dark tank is always the better choice. End to end it took them 3 weeks and that was because I took 5 extra days to drop off the bike.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: adamld83 on June 02, 2010, 07:44:59 AM
First off thanks to ducatiz for putting this together. Second off..no I have not had any issues thus far (I hope) with my 06 red/white s2r 800. Just picked it up last fri and now saw this post. Needless to say I am nervous and cannot wait to get home and inspect my tank with a microscope. Few quick questions....If mine has gone this long is it safe to say Im out of the woods? Is their any preventative things I can do ? Does the ethanol hypothesis still hold weight? If so, which gas stations are the safest bet? Thanks guys for any help/guidance.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: duccarlos on June 02, 2010, 08:45:09 AM
Most think that the ethanol is definitely not helping. There are few gas stations that still provide 100% ethanol free gas. You would need to look for the specific stations in your area. I have yet to hear of someone that has had this issue when using normal gas.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: adamld83 on June 02, 2010, 10:06:39 AM
Thanks, I'll look into it. What a bummer though. Come to mention it, looked at the same bike but an 05 where the tank looked waaay to big for the frame and the owner had no clue. I thought it was maybe a tank that was rebuilt and the dude wasnt being straight up.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: lazarus7 on June 02, 2010, 11:27:04 AM
just a quick note, got the new warrantied tank installed in just about 2 hours, [thumbsup]
just got back from the shop with the trailer, will post detailed pics in a separate thread shortly...
so, tank warrantied and replaced in about 3 months even, from visual inspection to return home.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Dave328 on June 04, 2010, 08:31:31 AM
First off thanks to ducatiz for putting this together. Second off..no I have not had any issues thus far (I hope) with my 06 red/white s2r 800. Just picked it up last fri and now saw this post. Needless to say I am nervous and cannot wait to get home and inspect my tank with a microscope. Few quick questions....If mine has gone this long is it safe to say Im out of the woods? Is their any preventative things I can do ? Does the ethanol hypothesis still hold weight? If so, which gas stations are the safest bet? Thanks guys for any help/guidance.
You may not be so lucky. I didn't start to notice any issues on my '06 S2r800 till about 2 months ago. I never paid much attention to this thread cuz my tank was fine. That is, until a buddy told me to look at my tank and sure enough, no ripples but it was almost touching the ignition switch. I have an appt to get my new tank installed next saturday.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Trenchdigger on June 06, 2010, 03:40:31 AM
Looks like I'm suffering this same problem too.  It's not severe yet, and hopefully won't be, but it is there: Tank Expansion.  :(


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: He Man on June 08, 2010, 02:04:11 PM
went to Rockwell Cycles. The secretary checked it out and it sounds like i am going to get a tank. My tank latch is pushing against the keysensor and one bumper is 90% off the frame and theres bumps all over, my steering damper is also hitting the tank. she took a bunch of pics and is submitting the claim for me.

Ive never met a dealer with as cool guys and customers as Rockwell. Its a much smaller shop than goldcoast and i got a chance to talk to a few techs, they are supercool guys.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on June 08, 2010, 02:27:47 PM
I'm glad you finally are getting some action but now I'm afraid a meteor will strike Rockwells!


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: He Man on June 08, 2010, 03:23:36 PM
I'm glad you finally are getting some action but now I'm afraid a meteor will strike Rockwells!


>:O


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: somegirl on June 08, 2010, 04:29:18 PM
I'm glad you finally are getting some action but now I'm afraid a meteor will strike Rockwells!

 [laugh] [clap]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: beancounter on June 10, 2010, 09:06:27 AM
went to Rockwell Cycles. The secretary checked it out and it sounds like i am going to get a tank. My tank latch is pushing against the keysensor and one bumper is 90% off the frame and theres bumps all over, my steering damper is also hitting the tank. she took a bunch of pics and is submitting the claim for me.

Ive never met a dealer with as cool guys and customers as Rockwell. Its a much smaller shop than goldcoast and i got a chance to talk to a few techs, they are supercool guys.

+1 on Rockwell Cycles [thumbsup]

I was there with He Man and had them submit a claim for my tank as well.  Waiting to see what happens.  Also, I joined the ducatiplastictanks group and will submit my info momentarily.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: He Man on June 11, 2010, 11:52:18 AM
If they let me keep my tank, im going to set it on fire and roll it down a hill.

only because i cant burn my whole bike....



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Dave328 on June 12, 2010, 06:21:22 AM
I just dropped my bike this morning to get the tank replaced. Service Mgr said they have had luck getting DNA to replace tank protectors as well. I have a Ducati Corse carbon protector on my tank, and getting it off in one piece ain't gonna happen. Anybody else get one replaced with their tank?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: poseur on June 14, 2010, 07:33:54 AM
Any update as to whether Ducati is using a new and/or modified tank yet?  I have a 796 on order.  Maybe I should cancel until this is sorted out.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Duckintime on June 14, 2010, 02:40:48 PM
Any update as to whether Ducati is using a new and/or modified tank yet?  I have a 796 on order.  Maybe I should cancel until this is sorted out.
Someone was having probs with their 696 tank.. scroll a few pages back. It was pushing out the tank covers. Dunno, but for me id be looking for a metal tank on any new bike these days.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: markmon on June 14, 2010, 08:05:28 PM
I have a plastic tank too. Can anyone provide pictures for some show and tell...


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on June 15, 2010, 12:40:13 AM
Scroll back to the first few pages.  I've requested ppl send me pics but only a few have come in.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: DUCURTI on June 17, 2010, 06:55:11 AM

I got the call yesterday that my tank is in and that I'm scheduled for installation next Tuesday. Can't believe how quick and painless that was!

My digital camera is broken but I'll try to take some cell pics of the expanded tank tonight.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: adamld83 on June 17, 2010, 07:53:24 AM
Well looks like this may be happening to me now. Just bought an 06 s2r in red/white a month ago w/ 5500k on it. At first I saw two tiny dimples maybe a mm in diameter assuming it was from direct damage, and now there is a couple more. You can only see it in the right light. Damn [bang]...assuming it took so long to happen since the guy barely put any miles on it and drained the fuel system when it sat. Since then Ive put about 700 miles on it.  Wonder if my dealer will go ahead and replace it even if its in the beginning stages. Funny my brother wants a yamaha and all of a sudden is breaking my balls about my expensive ducati with the magical illusion of a tank. WTF.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on June 17, 2010, 08:47:51 AM
I am surprised at the LOW number of NHTSA reports.  Unless we get the numbers up it is very unlikely there will be a recall.  I have spoken to them several times and the basically say there just isn't enough reports.

I have >200 people on my mail list and about 30 people have files reports with NHTSA.

Unless more people step up and make official complaints, my efforts are a big waste of time.



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Satellite smithy on June 17, 2010, 09:16:14 AM
Near as I can 'tiz.....

people are just concerned with getting a new tank, and not getting a recall instituted.



Which is fine until the tank warps again, and Ducati doesn't cover it. I know the wifey did it-what are the rest of you doing?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on June 17, 2010, 09:32:09 AM
I have at least 20 ppl on my mail list who are on a second replacement and 5 who have had 3 replacements.

Ducati replaced cracked 900ss frames until a few years ago.  I doubt with this voilume they will be so generous.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: adamld83 on June 17, 2010, 09:43:59 AM
I just got my bike and am new to this but do I have to wait to file a report when my tank gets fixed? I would be willining to do it now if I can. How do I go about that?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Spyvito on June 17, 2010, 10:04:22 AM
Thanks for doing this, I have signed up (I think).  I am certain however that I filed a NHTSA complaint on their site but never heard back.  I have a 2006 Paul Smart that is on it's second gas tank.  First was replaced by Ducati last fall.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on June 17, 2010, 10:10:14 AM
Don't wait.  It is unrelated.  You just need your VIN and mpdel info and to describe the problem

http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/ivoq/ (http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/ivoq/)

I posted some sample language but it is unnecessary.  Saying the gas tank expanded and how much is sufficient.  Mention how on a bike the gas tank IS BETWEEN YOUR LEGS and a split tank would be ahuge problem.  If your handles were/are hitting say so because that affects handling.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: He Man on June 17, 2010, 10:37:21 AM
http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=39604.msg705123#msg705123 (http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=39604.msg705123#msg705123)

Link to how you can tell if you have a warped tank. maybe you can put it in your intial post so everyone can see it.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Wonked on June 17, 2010, 10:38:09 AM
I just filed a complaint. Thanks Ducatiz.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: vaclav on June 17, 2010, 12:03:11 PM
I just filed with NHTSA and subscribed to  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ducatiplastictanks/join (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ducatiplastictanks/join)  Thanks for the links. Also, I took mine in to the dealer two weeks ago. He had a surprised look on his face but he got his digcam out right away and took pictures of the hinge slots and latch area. I called a week later and he said they were backordered. I called again today (two weeks later) - still backordered. And don't call him, he'll call me. Did anybody get any paperwork given to them when they made their complaint? I have no documentation whatsoever.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on June 17, 2010, 12:24:12 PM
Good question on the paperwork


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: somegirl on June 17, 2010, 12:47:21 PM
I got an email confirmation of my complaint, that's it.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: scduc on June 17, 2010, 01:03:42 PM
A recent post has brought me to investigate my filing, and althought I'm fairly confident that I did file a complaint, I have lost my ODI # and my searches do not come up with anything. My next step is to re-file. UPDATE: I did just find my ODI# and really should have left a larger complaint. My concern is that these complaints seem to be scattered on the NHTSA database. And the only option for the monster is the 08' 696 which not too many have had problems yet. Maybe there is not enough complaints due to them being scattered. We all need to do the paperwork. I do not want my tank to get all wacked out and then be forced to pay for it out of my own pocket, only to have it fail a year later.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on June 17, 2010, 02:17:48 PM
The paperwork question was for tank replacement not ODI reports.

I am tracking the reports as they are posted and will print them out in a batch.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: csp808 on June 17, 2010, 03:26:52 PM
I just filed with NHTSA and subscribed to  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ducatiplastictanks/join (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ducatiplastictanks/join)  Thanks for the links. Also, I took mine in to the dealer two weeks ago. He had a surprised look on his face but he got his digcam out right away and took pictures of the hinge slots and latch area. I called a week later and he said they were backordered. I called again today (two weeks later) - still backordered. And don't call him, he'll call me. Did anybody get any paperwork given to them when they made their complaint? I have no documentation whatsoever.
Vaclav you need to call DNA I was fed this line of b.s for 7 months till i called  DNA they got  on the dealers ass and called me back telling me there was no excuse for this and that i needed to go back to the dealer and this would be handled. That was 3 weeks ago, today the dealer called telling me my tank is in. If you let the dealer push you off you'll likely never see a tank


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: DUCURTI on June 17, 2010, 04:10:28 PM
Scroll back to the first few pages.  I've requested ppl send me pics but only a few have come in.

Here are a few pics of my tank...

Latch/Ignition
(http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c392/lhuxtable/Bikes/tank4.jpg)

Left side rubber mount
(http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c392/lhuxtable/Bikes/tank1.jpg)

Dimples
(http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c392/lhuxtable/Bikes/tank3.jpg)

Ripple - hard to see but its there
(http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c392/lhuxtable/Bikes/tank2.jpg)


Complaint logged...

Your Complaint Information is successfully submitted.
Your Confirmation number (ODI Number) is: 10336897


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: adamld83 on June 18, 2010, 08:31:58 AM
Don't wait.  It is unrelated.  You just need your VIN and mpdel info and to describe the problem

http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/ivoq/ (http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/ivoq/)

I posted some sample language but it is unnecessary.  Saying the gas tank expanded and how much is sufficient.  Mention how on a bike the gas tank IS BETWEEN YOUR LEGS and a split tank would be ahuge problem.  If your handles were/are hitting say so because that affects handling.
Thanks..will get on this and file asap. Talked to my dealer here in columbus,ohio and he said of 6 complaints filed, only one has been replaced. Said DNA is intentionally moving slow until a composite is found that doesnt result in reacting the fuel.......?? Either way, he sounded eager to take pics and file the claim although my damage is minimal right now.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Bill in OKC on June 18, 2010, 10:07:50 AM
DNA is intentionally moving slow until a composite is found that doesnt result in reacting the fuel.......??
I guess if they wait long enough - like maybe 5 years - it magically won't be DNA's problem anymore?  Or does a *known problem* get fixed even after the 5 year warranty has expired?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Satellite smithy on June 18, 2010, 11:28:35 AM
I've never seen a duc with more than a two year warranty.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on June 18, 2010, 12:01:04 PM
5 year emissions eq warranty.

Covers your charcoal canister too


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on June 18, 2010, 12:03:40 PM
also the usa emissions warranty dies at about 18000 miles


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Satellite smithy on June 18, 2010, 12:20:24 PM
also the usa emissions warranty dies at about 18000 miles

Ours got replaced at 22k.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: lethe on June 18, 2010, 12:37:49 PM
I'm at just over 20k and thought mine was immune but just this weekend noticed my latch is further forward than it used to be.  :P


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: scduc on June 18, 2010, 12:38:36 PM
So does a newly "purchased" tank come with the warranty?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: BK_856er on June 18, 2010, 01:19:45 PM
So does a newly "purchased" tank come with the warranty?

My dealer told me that the replacement tank is automatically covered for 1yr, independent of any mandatory "emissions" or discretionary "goodwill" coverage.  I got replacement tank #2 within the 1yr period -just barely.

BK


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on June 18, 2010, 02:42:16 PM
As of my last conversation with DNA, they are replacing tanks regardless of the age of the bike, and regardless of primary or secondary ownership.

I'd call that good will, across the board.

They might have some kind of insurance for the in-warranty bikes, I don't know how that works.  Nevertheless, for the time being, everyone is getting a tank, unless they are an asian guy whose bike smells like someone dumped garbage on it.   [evil]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Blake on June 18, 2010, 04:20:01 PM
So, what began six months ago is finally getting wrapped up tomorrow.  I'm scheduled to have my tank replaced tomorrow a.m.
I'm pretty stoked since the dealer emailed last week stating that the tank wouldn't arrive until early Aug.

Later


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: scduc on June 19, 2010, 05:57:27 AM
So considering that the possibility of having to get a 2nd, 3rd, 4th, tank, my guess is that we should at least try the coating that is recommended by other users on this board. My 2nd tank is getting close to a year old, and I believe that I will have the same issue in the not so distant future. Problem is, I laid the bike down and now I have some real small pits in the paint. My guess is that they will not want to warranty it. So if I have to buy a new tank, I want to make sure I do every thing possible to prevent this from happening again.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Dave328 on June 19, 2010, 06:09:00 AM
Just filed my complaint with the NHTSA. Thought I had filed it before, but didn't. On the bright side I go pick up my bike today, and DNA is going to replace my tank protector. [thumbsup]

<edit>
Interesting talk with the svc mgr when I picked up the bike today. He said the new tanks coming out right now are made with a thicker mold of the same plastic. He was told the added thickness would keep the expansion/rippling at bay. Also, he said they have replaced the fewest  tanks on Monsters. They've already swapped out a bunch of Sport Classics, and even some 898/1098's. Triumph has also joined the party with a bunch of Speed Triples. I would bet the third party supplier is in for a world of hurt from Ducati SpA. FWIW, the part price on my invoice for the tank was $1875!  :o


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Greg on June 20, 2010, 05:54:34 AM
Can't remember if I originally filed with NHTSA or not, anyway, just filled out the form and got back the emailed confirmation  [thumbsup]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: victor441 on June 20, 2010, 09:52:49 AM
FWIW Triumph switched back to steel tanks a few years ago and their plastic tanks were also made by Acerbis IIRC...though from what I've read Triumph plastic tank problems were not nearly as common as on Ducs

<edit>
Interesting talk with the svc mgr when I picked up the bike today. He said the new tanks coming out right now are made with a thicker mold of the same plastic. He was told the added thickness would keep the expansion/rippling at bay. Also, he said they have replaced the fewest  tanks on Monsters. They've already swapped out a bunch of Sport Classics, and even some 898/1098's. Triumph has also joined the party with a bunch of Speed Triples. I would bet the third party supplier is in for a world of hurt from Ducati SpA. FWIW, the part price on my invoice for the tank was $1875!  :o
[/quote]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: jacksplat on June 20, 2010, 12:07:58 PM
I have the same problem with my 06 s2r1000. I filed a report with the NHTSA.
Has anyone in manhattan had this problem? Which dealer did you go to?
It would be TREMENDOUSLY helpful if we could have a list of dealers in different states who have repaired these tanks under warranty. It'll be an invaluable resource for newbies like me with the same problem and it'll help reward good dealers.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on June 20, 2010, 02:06:05 PM
I have the same problem with my 06 s2r1000. I filed a report with the NHTSA.
Has anyone in manhattan had this problem? Which dealer did you go to?
It would be TREMENDOUSLY helpful if we could have a list of dealers in different states who have repaired these tanks under warranty. It'll be an invaluable resource for newbies like me with the same problem and it'll help reward good dealers.

A few guys here are in Manhattan.  Don't bother with Corsa, go to Rockwell's.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: He Man on June 20, 2010, 09:34:25 PM
A few guys here are in Manhattan.  Don't bother with Corsa, go to Rockwell's.

+1, dont go to Corsa. Thinking about them touching my bike is equivalent to this. I actually I think this is a great comparision of whats going on there half the time.

like a ketchup bottle (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Tj6AskAO9s#normal)

Rockwell is much better


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Mojo S2R on June 21, 2010, 07:27:55 AM
FWIW Triumph switched back to steel tanks a few years ago and their plastic tanks were also made by Acerbis IIRC...though from what I've read Triumph plastic tank problems were not nearly as common as on Ducs

<edit>
Interesting talk with the svc mgr when I picked up the bike today. He said the new tanks coming out right now are made with a thicker mold of the same plastic. He was told the added thickness would keep the expansion/rippling at bay. Also, he said they have replaced the fewest  tanks on Monsters. They've already swapped out a bunch of Sport Classics, and even some 898/1098's. Triumph has also joined the party with a bunch of Speed Triples. I would bet the third party supplier is in for a world of hurt from Ducati SpA. FWIW, the part price on my invoice for the tank was $1875!  :o

Holy crap $1875.  For that much dough I wonder if they would rather replace mine with a CF DP tank instead.  I wouldn't have any complaints if they did.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: scduc on June 21, 2010, 02:21:15 PM
 :o :o :o oh shit that was f'n hilarious


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: beancounter on June 21, 2010, 04:21:07 PM
Done.  Filed my DOT NHTSA complaint [thumbsup]



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on June 21, 2010, 05:25:54 PM
New tanks thicker?

If the problem really is ethanol permeation, then thicker material won't help at all.

It just means a longer "gestation" and even less fuel capacity


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Dave328 on June 22, 2010, 02:13:30 AM
New tanks thicker?

If the problem really is ethanol permeation, then thicker material won't help at all.

It just means a longer "gestation" and even less fuel capacity
That's exactly what I was thinking. But I chose to not get into a long debate over it, and go ride.
Considering DNA's response to my clutch failure, I have zero confidence in 99% of what they say. ;)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: He Man on June 22, 2010, 05:28:54 AM
That's exactly what I was thinking. But I chose to not get into a long debate over it, and go ride.
Considering DNA's response to my clutch failure, I have zero confidence in 99% of what they say. ;)

where do these tech hear these things anyway? I swear if its rumors, its one thing, but if they start blurting it out like they heard it from the CEO, i start walking away slowly.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: duccarlos on June 22, 2010, 06:19:39 AM
I always ask when I hear rumors. Last one of these was heard from the regional service manager.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: DUCURTI on June 24, 2010, 01:36:02 AM
My 1st replacement tank was installed this past Tuesday. Couldn't be happier with the timeline... thanks Duc Pond!

They did offer a solution that was guaranteed to solve this problem for good... some sort of coating for $400.



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on June 24, 2010, 01:43:38 AM
My 1st replacement tank was installed this past Tuesday. Couldn't be happier with the timeline... thanks Duc Pond!

They did offer a solution that was guaranteed to solve this problem for good... some sort of coating for $400.

What coating?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: DarkStaR on June 27, 2010, 08:32:20 AM
Tank arrived, and will be installed on Saturday.

The service manager at the dealer I brought it to seems to knows about the problem, and asked me what I though, or what the rumor is.  I questionably answered with "the type of gas"... with out saying anything, he seemed to quietly agree.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: coarsegoldkid on June 27, 2010, 04:30:57 PM
Is this tank expansion issue happening in all states.  Some states have different fuels.  I live in California and rarely see ethanol but will stay away from it if possible.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Satellite smithy on June 27, 2010, 05:31:23 PM
Is this tank expansion issue happening in all states.  Some states have different fuels.  I live in California and rarely see ethanol but will stay away from it if possible.

Where in California have you not seen ethanol?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: coarsegoldkid on June 27, 2010, 06:34:31 PM
Maybe I haven't been paying attention to the fuel stickers on the pumps.  Maybe there aren't any stickers.  I always figured we didn't have it in our fuel.  So if ethanol is the culprit and it's in all fuel we are all screwed.    No need for steel tanks. Just having a plastic fuel tank doesn't mean plastic tanks are bad.  My BMW tank is plastic and has no issues.  BMW has been using them for years. By the way my friends 1100 Monster has a plastic tank with side covers similar to the BMW I think.  Are these newer tanks also prone to expanding?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: DUCURTI on June 28, 2010, 04:24:26 AM
What coating?

I didn't have the extra $400 so I didn't get it and can't remember the name of it. I'll give the service manager a call and get back to you.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: CDawg on June 28, 2010, 05:43:24 AM
I just discovered that I have the expanding tank problem too.  Rockwell has a new tank on order for me ($2,095) for my S4RS.  I'm on the fence about the coating too.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: lawbreaker on June 28, 2010, 11:07:48 AM
... Looks like i'll be doing my SECOND warranty based tank swap.  [bang]

The replacement tank i have (replaced 2 yrs ago) is not only deforming on the sides but elongating too.... hitting the latch now.


I'm now in the market for a metal tank


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Bill in OKC on June 28, 2010, 05:14:37 PM
NYLON 6/6 POLYAMIDE  (PA)
ZYTEL® 101F NC010 (Dry) (PA)
DuPont Engineering Polymers / Americas - Polymide 66
General-purpose nylon 6/6 has good toughness, tensile strength, and resistance to creep, particularly in
the high temperature range. Nylon has excellent wear properties. low coefficient of friction, and exceptional
chemical resistance to aromatic hydrocarbons, greases, and oils. Nylon is a hygroscopic material. Moisture
acts as a plasticizer reducing the tensile strength, stiffness, and increasing elongation, impact strength,
and energy absorbing characteristics. Outdoor weathering can be improved by the addition of carbon black.
Nylon will perform well in long range service in most applications at temperatures as high as 185°F (85°C).
Nylon is a translucent off white color.

This sounds like a match, alcohol absorbs water, nylon absorbs water, tanks expand...


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on June 28, 2010, 05:29:20 PM
NYLON 6/6 POLYAMIDE  (PA)
ZYTEL® 101F NC010 (Dry) (PA)
DuPont Engineering Polymers / Americas - Polymide 66
General-purpose nylon 6/6 has good toughness, tensile strength, and resistance to creep, particularly in
the high temperature range. Nylon has excellent wear properties. low coefficient of friction, and exceptional
chemical resistance to aromatic hydrocarbons, greases, and oils. Nylon is a hygroscopic material. Moisture
acts as a plasticizer reducing the tensile strength, stiffness, and increasing elongation, impact strength,
and energy absorbing characteristics. Outdoor weathering can be improved by the addition of carbon black.
Nylon will perform well in long range service in most applications at temperatures as high as 185°F (85°C).
Nylon is a translucent off white color.

This sounds like a match, alcohol absorbs water, nylon absorbs water, tanks expand...

damn


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Bill in OKC on June 28, 2010, 06:44:43 PM
I wonder how much water e10 can contain before it becomes obvious.  Ethanol merchants must know.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: howie on June 29, 2010, 12:31:53 AM
I can't give you a good scientific answer like Bill (thank you) gave us on the properties of Polymide 66, but from my experience with gasahol in the late '70s and early'80s, a lot [bang]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on June 29, 2010, 03:14:11 AM
I wonder how much water e10 can contain before it becomes obvious.  Ethanol merchants must know.

I have been talking with a lab that is going to examine a tank for me and I asked them this question a while back, I just got their reply in the last week.

E10 gasoline has been demonstrated to retain as much as 1% water (by volume), depending on the ambient temperature.  At a reference of 0 deg F, E10 has been shown to absorb 0.3% whereas at 90 deg F, the amount is as much as 1%.

This doesn't seem like much, but when it is compared to pure gasoline (G100), the percentage volume tops out at about 0.2% water absorption at 90 deg F.  Gasoline with MTBE show similar performance to G100.

I originally assumed the expansion issue was directly related to ethanol penetration, but after learning that PA6 / Nylon 66 has water absorption properties, I can hypothesize how ethanol is actually causing the problem.

Ethanol absorbs water, there is no way around it.

Phase separation is a phenomena which happens when Ethanol "enriched" gasoline sits.  Water present in the fuel mixture literally drags the ethanol out of the mix -- by gravity.  Water is heavier than gasoline and in solution it clings to the ethanol.

As a result, you end up with a pool of water at the bottom of your tank.

My recommendation for everyone is to store your bikes with an empty tank and to regularly use Stabil or similar solution to prevent phase separation.  Some are better than others -- "marine" formulations are just more potent.  Startron and Stabil have both indicated their products should have no problems in a nylon tank.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: duccarlos on June 29, 2010, 04:19:11 AM
damn

+1


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Wonked on June 29, 2010, 04:57:51 AM
Just got the call from BMW/Ducati of Atlanta - my tank's been approved. Should have it sometime next month.

Debating whether or not to do the Caswell coating, or the Stabil method mentioned above. Maybe both? $400 (Caswell coating parts and labor) seems a bit steep if the results are in doubt.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on June 29, 2010, 05:05:46 AM
You can do the Caswell yourself for about 100 materials.

There are guys on the SC and Multis who did the Caswell over a year ago and still good. 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on June 29, 2010, 05:06:57 AM

And that's a rec to do the coating.  Keep your receipts.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: CTKurt on June 29, 2010, 10:31:00 AM
Me to. 2005 monster s2r dark. It even looks bigger. :o


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on June 30, 2010, 07:31:51 AM
For those of you waiting for some movement on this issue, stay tuned...


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: duccarlos on June 30, 2010, 10:24:34 AM
That's the carrot.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: He Man on June 30, 2010, 11:18:03 AM
still waiting on info on my tank, been about 2 weeks almost and no word yet.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: rockaduc on June 30, 2010, 12:14:43 PM
For those of you waiting for some movement on this issue, stay tuned...


[popcorn]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: CDawg on June 30, 2010, 01:12:15 PM
Anyone have experience with CA CycleWorks' tanks?
http://www.ca-cycleworks.com/mtt43/ (http://www.ca-cycleworks.com/mtt43/)

Much cheaper when paying out of pocket.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: He Man on June 30, 2010, 07:56:43 PM
i dont, it sounds awesome, but im not particularly for hte looks of it.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: angler on July 02, 2010, 05:56:54 AM
For those of you waiting for some movement on this issue, stay tuned...

Waiting with baited breath......


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: factorPlayer on July 03, 2010, 02:23:31 PM
Today my buddy who is graciously doing my tail chop in his shop informed my tank is having this.  I had no clue.  Once he pointed it out it was obviously - the tank's frame rests were obviously pushed out.

I had no clue this was going on - I've been out of the loop and really haven't read much on here for awhile though.  Thank god for good bike buddies!


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: DucNaked on July 06, 2010, 12:11:03 PM
signed up today. My dealer said no problem getting a replacement. But my problem is that its custom painted. I think I'm going to wait till winter and let it sit for a month and see if it shrinks back, then coat the inside.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on July 06, 2010, 02:54:01 PM
signed up today. My dealer said no problem getting a replacement. But my problem is that its custom painted. I think I'm going to wait till winter and let it sit for a month and see if it shrinks back, then coat the inside.

It WILL shrink back.

You have to remove the tank, remove all the guts and hang it up to dry for about 1-2-3 months.  Apparently, the tanks that Bologna's gotten back under replacement are all shrunken back to original size.

I cannot say if the condition of the tank is worth a shite though after it has expanded.  It would be NICE if they would shrink back and be 100%.  If so, then coating is the solution.  but you have to make sure it is completely dry, maybe use rice on it.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: IamSMC on July 07, 2010, 08:52:55 AM
Just purchased this past week a 2005 Monster S2R 800 with approximately 5400 miles.
At time of purchase, I was aware of the tank issue, which this bike did have.
Long story short, this bike was a good deal that I couldn't pass up.

Just got off the phone today with the service manager of Ducati NY and was advised that Ducati is no longer honoring warranty claims on the tank issues if the tank is just showing typical sighs of expansion.
He further advised that a warranty claim may be covered in cases where the tank is leaking or other extreme no-start issues.

Can anyone advise further.

TIA


Well, just a followup...

Had a a service appointment at Ducati NY today and the service manager didn't budge from his position.

Quote:
"Ducati NA will not cover tank replacement if the tank is not leaking."

I showed him the latch around the ignition, the rubber mounts, the ripples and the handlebar hitting at full locks, left and right.

And asked, have you had customers come in riding their Ducatis with leaking tanks?

He "affirmatively" said "YES" and said you'll be amazed how many still do without a tank replacement [roll]

So I guess its off to Cliff's or Gold Coast.



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: duccarlos on July 07, 2010, 08:57:18 AM
Are those guys that lazy? Can someone from DNA please call these idiots?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: IamSMC on July 07, 2010, 09:01:36 AM
Are those guys that lazy? Can someone from DNA please call these idiots?

Maybe he's running a personal record of how many claims he rejects...

The worst part was how he tried to explain it "convincingly"...

"Ducati NA took a bath on these tanks."


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: duccarlos on July 07, 2010, 09:04:11 AM
I guess it's too much effort to take some pictures and fill out the forms.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: IamSMC on July 07, 2010, 09:04:55 AM
Apparently, the tanks that Bologna's gotten back under replacement are all shrunken back to original size.

Wow

Hope they don't turn around and use this as an excuse to deny claims


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on July 07, 2010, 09:08:49 AM
Maybe he's running a personal record of how many claims he rejects...

The worst part was how he tried to explain it "convincingly"...

"Ducati NA took a bath on these tanks."

I am not sure how an individual service manager is privy to the contractual and legal arrangements that Ducati might have with its supplier(s), nor how he would know precisely how many tanks could be affected -- nor what its cost model/margin could be.  I should start collecting these comments and make a book of them. 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: duccarlos on July 07, 2010, 09:15:45 AM
I just find it funny that my local dealer is so willing to take care of these and others are just adamantly against helping.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on July 07, 2010, 09:43:26 AM
I have a feeling that shop will be getting a phone call soon...


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: rockaduc on July 07, 2010, 12:46:00 PM
I just find it funny that my local dealer is so willing to take care of these and others are just adamantly against helping.

+1. I went to Trebour in Ledgewood, NJ.  Good 'ol Joe couldn't have been better.  Got pics taken and a new tank was installed within 2 weeks.  [thumbsup]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: IamSMC on July 07, 2010, 02:17:27 PM
I just find it funny that my local dealer is so willing to take care of these and others are just adamantly against helping.

You ain't kidding.

I called Cliff's and Gold Coast, they both said bring it in for the service manager to look at.

Guess what I'm doing next week?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: IamSMC on July 07, 2010, 02:37:38 PM
I have a feeling that shop will be getting a phone call soon...

 [clap] [clap] [clap]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: DucNaked on July 07, 2010, 02:41:55 PM
Don't the dealers get paid full retail and labor from Ducati for warranty items? I was always told they do, so they are getting paid for the part and to install it. So what's the problem with some dealers?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: duccarlos on July 07, 2010, 03:24:39 PM
They do get labor. Parts are supplied by the factory. They're just being lazy.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducpainter on July 07, 2010, 03:30:01 PM
They do get labor. Parts are supplied by the factory. They're just being lazy.
Not true from my info...

keep in mind it makes no difference how DNA does their accounting.

What is important is if they take care of their customers, and from my perspective DNA is doing exactly that.

If you have a suck dealer find a different one.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: duccarlos on July 07, 2010, 05:25:37 PM
Not true from my info...

keep in mind it makes no difference how DNA does their accounting.

What is important is if they take care of their customers, and from my perspective DNA is doing exactly that.

If you have a suck dealer find a different one.

Not sure what your point is. I was not referring to DNA, just that specific dealer. The local service guy told me that DNA is reimbursing the full labor. The tank is provided by the factory so it doesn't cost them a penny. The suck dealer is the one that is lazy.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Heath on July 08, 2010, 05:15:03 AM
Those dealers not willing to do it is bull.  The dealer I went to, Modesto Ducati, started the paperwork the same day I brought the bike by.  They almost did it over the phone, but said they had to see it to make sure.  A couple quick glances and some wow that is one of the worse ones I have seen and I was done.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: hankthe8th on July 08, 2010, 12:48:38 PM
Those dealers not willing to do it is bull.  The dealer I went to, Modesto Ducati, started the paperwork the same day I brought the bike by.  They almost did it over the phone, but said they had to see it to make sure.  A couple quick glances and some wow that is one of the worse ones I have seen and I was done.

Wow, glad I found this thread. Happy to see Modesto Ducati is helping out. I'm probably taking mine in on Saturday, I'll have to give them a call. It's warped, but not sure if it's warped enough for replacement.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducpainter on July 09, 2010, 02:22:15 AM
Not sure what your point is. I was not referring to DNA, just that specific dealer. The local service guy told me that DNA is reimbursing the full labor. The tank is provided by the factory so it doesn't cost them a penny. The suck dealer is the one that is lazy.

The real point is that DNA seems to be making good on the claims, and if the dealer you visit doesn't handle it to your satisfaction simply find another dealer.

A discussion of DNAs accounting methods is pretty much hearsay and irrelevant.

I'd suggest the 'service guy' doesn't have a clue what the dealer statement looks like. ;)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: CTKurt on July 09, 2010, 01:43:39 PM
I am the 3rd owner of a 2005 s2r 800. Will DNA still take care of my tank problem? Just bring it into the dealer and they take it from there?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on July 09, 2010, 02:04:45 PM
I am the 3rd owner of a 2005 s2r 800. Will DNA still take care of my tank problem? Just bring it into the dealer and they take it from there?

I haven't heard anyone even being asked if they are the original owners.  As far as I know, 2nd/3rd owners will be covered.  Kudos to Ducati for that.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducamonsta on July 09, 2010, 04:20:30 PM
Next in line, 2nd owner
My story: today 07/09/10
Stop by my local Ducati dealer, to look for some gear, and tried on a ForceField vest, and the guy that was helping me out works there on the parts/sale.
So he says" you can go ahead and try it on lets go outside sit on your bike ( 05 s2r800) and see how it fits. I said Kool ok, head out sat on the bike . He looks at my DUCA and says I havent seen a yellow s2r around, I am " really," then told him" I want to custom paint it" He started to look for the tank said " You know your tank is expanded" I am " expanded how?"  ???  :o , I am in my mind " how" So he says " yeap these are expanding and if you paint it it will expanded the paint will be warping" kept going" yeah ducati is redesign the tank and working on new materials to build new tanks, so you are going to end up painting 2"

Ok so, I was concerned on my safety that's why I am here posting because Followed everything on the Original position research comments etc. and here I am writing about it!


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: cduarte on July 10, 2010, 01:57:23 PM
@#$%@##!!! my replacement tank is already expanding about a year after it was installed.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: DucNaked on July 10, 2010, 04:32:52 PM
@#$%@##!!! my replacement tank is already expanding about a year after it was installed.
I know a guy with a sport classic on his third tank


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: IamSMC on July 12, 2010, 02:10:34 AM
I know a guy with a sport classic on his third tank

Amazing how some can get a third tank while some only get grief trying to get their first replacement...


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on July 12, 2010, 02:21:23 AM
It is the dealers.  But it is mostly DNA's fault for not providing more clear guidance.  They are replacing every bad tank but need to provide the dealer network w more clear procedures.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: KTMCHEESE on July 12, 2010, 09:43:58 AM
I was a member here and the DML for many years before selling my S4Rs and jumping ship to KTM. Just to let you guys know, Superdukes also have this expanding gas tank problem. Two days ago I had to hammer a flathead screwdriver between my tank and the steering stem and had to pry that bastard into position in order to get it screwed on. Plastic tanks suck ass....


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: duccarlos on July 12, 2010, 10:38:46 AM
KTM and Ducati might share the same tank provider


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on July 12, 2010, 11:07:50 AM
KTM and Ducati might share the same tank provider

I would like to confirm that -- if they have the same maker and material, it would be very interesting.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: KTMCHEESE on July 12, 2010, 11:30:50 AM
Superduke tanks are made by Acerbis.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: duccarlos on July 12, 2010, 04:03:42 PM
Same as Ducati.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on July 13, 2010, 01:12:46 AM
Then the question is whether they are made of the same material.  If anyone has access to one please PM me.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: J.P. on July 15, 2010, 11:27:06 AM
Guy on the Ducati.ms Sport classic forum recently contacted the NHTSA and spoke to an administrator, who suggested he contact the Fed. Trade Commission. (see "tank probs- yes or no" at pg 63...) He was told the NHTSA can only discuss the problem with Ducati, and monitor them if they are actually working on a fix(ie. replacing tanks).

Also, apparently some of the SC guys are getting used tanks as replacements from Duc. and returning them. Maybe they do contract on the ride back to Italy.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: kansascity on July 15, 2010, 01:25:59 PM
Anyone have experience with CA CycleWorks' tanks?
http://www.ca-cycleworks.com/mtt43/ (http://www.ca-cycleworks.com/mtt43/)

Much cheaper when paying out of pocket.

CDawg, thank you for posting that link.  Didn't know about that option.  Might have to get one of those some day if this issue persists with the OEM tanks. 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on July 15, 2010, 01:31:15 PM
I wonder who the fellow on .ms talked to at NHTSA ie which Office? 

Plus the FTC would not handle an automotive product defect where there is a possible safety issue.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: kansascity on July 15, 2010, 01:33:38 PM
FYI - on the Ethanol as a cause, I've got a 07 that just started bulging this summer.    And I've been running a special high test no ethanol specialty fuel that I buy 5 gallons at a time.   As far as I know my bike hasn't had any ethanol gas in it.  



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: CDawg on July 16, 2010, 03:30:11 AM
My replacement tank is in!
I'm going to test dummy for Rockwell Cycle and try the Caswell coating.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: He Man on July 16, 2010, 12:35:12 PM
Cdawg when did u file the claim? i havent heard anything yet and its been over a month and a half.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on July 16, 2010, 01:25:09 PM
Cdawg when did u file the claim? i havent heard anything yet and its been over a month and a half.

and what color?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: He Man on July 16, 2010, 02:03:22 PM
i dont know. my Vin number gives it a silver with black stripe. but they visually saw its black. and my friend got his approved for full black on a 620....but i never got anything.... not sure whats going on. going to call tomorrow.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Bill in OKC on July 18, 2010, 08:38:28 AM
An interesting post on the Aprilia forum.  One guy said he filled up with AV gas and his (aprilia) tank shrunk overnight...???


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: He Man on July 18, 2010, 10:23:35 AM
AV?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on July 18, 2010, 10:38:22 AM
AV?

aviation

problem with that is that it is leaded, or most of it is..


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducpainter on July 18, 2010, 10:45:26 AM
aviation

problem with that is that it is leaded, or most of it is..
You concerned about cats or legalities regarding leaded fuel in on road vehicles?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on July 18, 2010, 11:10:25 AM
You concerned about cats or legalities regarding leaded fuel in on road vehicles?

Well, mainly the cat but if I were a manufacturer and were planning to fight a lawsuit regarding a problem with a gas tank, and I knew people were putting leaded gas into a vehicle which states "UNLEADED" only, I might bring that up and have the lawsuit thrown out.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Wonked on July 19, 2010, 03:01:12 AM
Got my new tank installed on Saturday from Atlanta BMW/Ducati. Amazing to see what the tank is supposed to look like. I plan on adding stabil with every fill up.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: vaclav on July 19, 2010, 12:13:26 PM
I just filed with NHTSA and subscribed to  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ducatiplastictanks/join (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ducatiplastictanks/join)  Thanks for the links. Also, I took mine in to the dealer two weeks ago. He had a surprised look on his face but he got his digcam out right away and took pictures of the hinge slots and latch area. I called a week later and he said they were backordered. I called again today (two weeks later) - still backordered. And don't call him, he'll call me. Did anybody get any paperwork given to them when they made their complaint? I have no documentation whatsoever.

I wanted to let you folks know that I have a new tank now. The tank took about five or six weeks to come in. Dealer swapped them the next day. I was given a receipt for service (no charge to me). I had decided to give it six weeks based on what I had read here. I'm glad I was able to be patient (my bike is not my primary transportation). I asked my dealer if he knew of any changes in the structure or composition of the new tanks. He said he had no knowledge of that. I also asked if he recommended coating the inside of the tank. He said no because he was concerned the coating could potentially clog the fuel system. I am not discrediting anyone's research or experiences here; just reporting what he said. For what its worth, my dealer has a good reputation around here from what little I know. Also for what its worth, I have hardly been in there except for buying the bike and the free service I negotiated at the time of purchase so its not like we have the type of relationship where he would give me any inside info.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Statler on July 20, 2010, 03:31:04 AM
2nd tank is growing.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: He Man on July 20, 2010, 06:11:34 AM
this is a rant, you dont want to hear it, or your going to complain to me about how i rant blah then dont read it.

background story:

Went with beancounter, erichchang87 to rockwell. Ericchang did NOT bring his 620, but submitted photos via email of his tank. Rockwell cycles took pictures of my tank.

my friends 620 got approved for replacement.

ME ON THE OTHER make the beast with two backsING HAND... for SOME GOD DAMN REASON have to travel my ass 80 miles back there and they want to take more pictures and break out a measuring tool. And they have no explanation for it. I asked why they needed more photos they said, thats just the way it is. I asked why someone else got approved but mine needs to be measured they said, its standard procedure and they dont know why they have to measure mine. I asked if i could just email photos to them. they said no. Suck my balls dude, i dont give a make the beast with two backs ill just ride my shit till the tank starts leaking gas and blows up. Im tired of this shit.

3 make the beast with two backsing dealers and no one can give me a straight answer except goldcoast which was flat out no. Its swollen i cant remove my tank without a screw driver and the damn thing holds 3.5 gallons of gas and half of the tank is so bad the frame doenst even support it.

make the beast with two backs you ducati.

edit: I just called back after pacing around the absurdity of this. I asked that he speak with Nick again to make sure there was no misunderstanding cause id loose about 5 hours of my day to just go there wait for someone to take pics and then come back...anyway, nick told the phone dude that for some reason the photos did not come out....the same camera that was used at the same time to take pictures of beancounters bike did not come out...even though i looked at them on the camera and at the same time after i emailed them, they never got back to me.That just means the warranty issue was never filed since they never had evidence of it.

Before i start badmouthing them, im just going to give them the benefit of the doubt that they have a large workload right now and over looked this cause as far as im concerned, i shouldda just stayed working with Goldcoast, atleast they are only 20 miles away and there are no $11 toolbooths between me and them. I would of gone through the same shit anyway.

well anyway, they said NOW i can email them photos.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: duccarlos on July 20, 2010, 08:40:57 AM
That's the problem with dealer with a dealer that is so far away. Thankfully they see me pretty regularly, so my claim was not put on the backburner, plus it helps that the service guy is on the ball.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: DRKWNG on July 23, 2010, 09:56:42 AM
I was a member here and the DML for many years before selling my S4Rs and jumping ship to KTM. Just to let you guys know, Superdukes also have this expanding gas tank problem. Two days ago I had to hammer a flathead screwdriver between my tank and the steering stem and had to pry that bastard into position in order to get it screwed on. Plastic tanks suck ass....

Ah.  Now I see why you mentioned this to me at dinner Isaac.  The tanks on the SD's are not actually known for swelling; they are just a STUPID tight fit from the factory.  Every SD's tank is like that, and they have been documented as being incredibly difficult to fit at the factory, before there has ever been fuel in tank. 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: He Man on August 06, 2010, 11:29:29 AM
Just more uselesss news and updates.

emailed Rockwell twice after they took pics. no response. I called, they said they lost the pics. so i emailed them new pics. no reply. emailed them again. no reply. called, left msg, called again, spoke to someone and they said someone would call me back 2 days ago.

no word on what the situation is. Really i could care less if the gas spills everywhere and it catches on fire. so as long as im not on the bike. more reason for me to go after DNA for money to buy a new bike. this is just ridiculous.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: duccarlos on August 06, 2010, 12:37:39 PM
DNA has nothing to do with Rockwell's issues. If anything you should be contacting the BBB.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: He Man on August 06, 2010, 12:46:49 PM
ofcourse, the issue here is i cant find a dealer whos even willingly to submit the claim.


What blows is, i went with a group of 3.  One of the guys didnt even have the bike with him, and he just emailed the photos and got it approved.

The other 2 (including myself) cant even get a call back and we were there with our bikes, they snapped the photos and lost them, never contacted us until months later when we inquried about the issue.

And theres many other members on this very forum that said rockwell helped them out. so what gives? I'm courteous to them, i gave them all the time they needed and we spoke for a good 30 minutes just chatting and hanging out. its not like i rubbed them the wrong way.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: duccarlos on August 06, 2010, 01:05:19 PM
Sorry to say that you might want to go there again and camp out until they snap the photos and put in the claim right there.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: poseur on August 06, 2010, 06:26:42 PM
I suggest you craft a detailed letter explaining everything that happened (and also what it is exactly that you'd like them to do) and send it to Ducati North America, as well as Ducati in Italy.  Also send a copy to whomever it is that owns/manages Rockwell.

If that doesn't work, there must be other legal avenues.

I can't believe you've been treated so poorly by the chumps at Rockwell though. They seem to be as shady as Pro-Italia in Glendale California: http://www.ducati.ms/forums/showthread.php?t=92958 (http://www.ducati.ms/forums/showthread.php?t=92958)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: angler on August 07, 2010, 04:03:27 AM
9 month old tank starting to swell again..... [bang]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on August 07, 2010, 04:44:16 AM
Have you used any treatment like Stabil or Startron?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: angler on August 07, 2010, 04:51:04 AM
Have you used any treatment like Stabil or Startron?

Nope.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Monstermash on August 07, 2010, 08:48:15 AM
When I bought my S4Rt a few weeks ago I brought it in to the dealer to get an inspection sticker. While I was there I mentioned that the tank looked a little suspicious so they took a few photos and submitted the claim. My new tank is in route now.

FYI-The dealer told me that the problems we are experiencing with the tanks is because of the ethanol in the fuel and not likely to stop any time soon. So my question is, why is Ducati responsible for replacing tanks because of the shitty fuel our government is making us use.
 Additionally they told me the problem is not just with Ducati tanks. They have seen it on Aprilia, Guzzi, and every other brand with plastic tanks.

I have to be honest, if I was DNA I would be looking into a lawsuit with the U.S. government. Why should they have to shell out thousands and thousands of dollars in replacment tanks because of the fuel they make us use?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: He Man on August 07, 2010, 08:51:02 AM
Who knows whats going on over at ducati.

Once i get my tank, im throwing it on the shelf, and installing a metal tank.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Old-Duckman on August 07, 2010, 08:51:33 AM
Just picked up my bike with new tank today.

Don't want to read through 48 pages of posts but saw the Caswell tank sealer mentioned on page 47. I was considering that for my new tank. Caswell says it will not stick to polyethelyne...Is that what the Monster tanks are made of??

Any success or failures on the list with the Caswell?

TIA


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Monstermash on August 07, 2010, 08:57:24 AM
So I just posted my experience with my expanding fuel tank in the other thread.

My dealer has been more than helpful and my new tank is on the way. They explained the problem is caused by the ethanol in the fuel and not likely to stop anytime soon. They also mentioned that it is a recurring problem with any plastic fuel tank. So, whats going to happen when all the cars/trucks on the road start having the same problem because of the ethanol? I'd be willing to bet it already happening but because the fuel tanks on cars and trucks are underneath it goes un-noticed.

I'm curious, isn't there anything we can seal our tanks with that will help us avoid this problem? The distributer I get my paint from sells POR 15 and I asked them about it. They actually called the manufacturer and asked and they said it "may work, but they can't guarantee it"

 I don't want to have the same problem with my new tank so anyone have any ideas?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: kopfjäger on August 07, 2010, 09:00:07 AM
I don't think POR 15 will help with expansion.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: arjay26 on August 07, 2010, 09:00:43 AM
I took my '08 M695 to Hattar Motorsports in San Rafael, CA for a basic check-up.  Eric, the svc mgr took one look at my tank and called it "pregnant" -- without another word he filled out paperwork to order me a new tank under warrantee.  He recommended that I coat the inside to the tune of $235, which I opted for.  He said it should take 2 weeks for the new tank to arrive.

It all seems to be going quite smoothly for me.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on August 07, 2010, 09:01:01 AM
Just picked up my bike with new tank today.

Don't want to read through 48 pages of posts but saw the Caswell tank sealer mentioned on page 47. I was considering that for my new tank. Caswell says it will not stick to polyethelyne...Is that what the Monster tanks are made of??

Any success or failures on the list with the Caswell?

TIA

The Ducati tanks are Nylon 6/6 or Polyamide-6.  Lance Caswell says they will stick just fine. 

MTS owners have been using the Caswell now for about a year, no problems of which I am aware and I am following several folks who have this on their tanks.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Monstermash on August 07, 2010, 09:13:56 AM
Well the idea was to seal the tank so the ethanol wouldn't dissolve the plastic. Maybe POR 15 isn't the answer but there must be something else.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: kopfjäger on August 07, 2010, 09:18:18 AM
Well the idea was to seal the tank so the ethanol wouldn't dissolve the plastic. Maybe POR 15 isn't the answer but there must be something else.

Gotcha. Try giving them a call and see if it's safe to use on plastic. I know Nate has used it in CF tanks in the past.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Monstermash on August 07, 2010, 09:31:08 AM
I google search for "fuel tank sealer" yielded this:

http://www.kbs-coatings.com/cycle-tank-sealer-plus-kit.html (http://www.kbs-coatings.com/cycle-tank-sealer-plus-kit.html)

 I'm going to call them on Monday and see what they have to say.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on August 07, 2010, 10:37:00 AM
The problem isn't a direct ethanol:plastic issue.

The problem is that the tanks are made from Nylon 6/6, which -- according to every manufacturer of it -- absorbs water UNLESS treated or coated.

Acerbis did not treat or coat their tanks for Ducati (or anyone else).  There was no reasonable expectation that people would be putting water into their gas tanks, however, additive ethanol which is in pretty much every gallon of gas in the USA wicks moisture from the air at a rate 10-20 times that of E0 (0% ethanol). 

So the problem is caused by E10 gasoline, but not due to a direct interaction of the ethanol and the tanks.  Most accurately, it is due to a behavior of Ethanol interacting with the tank.

I am familiar with POR, but I don't know if it will stick to nylon/polyamide properly.  I know of several (currently 5) multistrada owners who have had the Caswell product in a tank for at least a year or more without any issues. 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: MotoCreations on August 07, 2010, 11:46:18 AM
POR-15 doesn't bond correctly with the nylon.  Mainly due to not being able to "etch" the inner surface enough to bond correctly.

Interesting discovery with the expanding tank issues.  If you drain the tank and put somewhere so air blows through the tank, after a few months it will reshape back to normal.  As some dealerships have discovered, the batch of tanks to be returned aren't as bad as when first removed. Thus maybe one should just have a pair of tanks and swap them every six months perhaps?

Upcoming the EU gets our ethanol mixture of fuel.  Thus it will be interesting what happens in Europe.

I just gave up on the Sport Classic tank expansion issues -- thus doing it in carbonfiber and resolve the problem once and for all.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: herm on August 07, 2010, 12:19:12 PM
the marine industry is experiencing similar issues with E-10 (according to a friend, no FHE) and some are using this product.

Star Tron (http://mystarbrite.com/startron//content/view/12/34/lang,en/)

I just heard about it, and am going to research a bit and then decide. Anyone else heard of this product?

edit: apparently its kind of $$$$


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: He Man on August 07, 2010, 01:37:11 PM
fuel additives are not the answer. Your cost of gasoline sky rockets if you need to add something to yuor tank every time.



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Old-Duckman on August 07, 2010, 02:58:50 PM
Thanx , I need to seal an old Bevel fiberglass tank so I think I'll order enough Caswell to do 2 tanks and do the new Monster tank too.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: silversled on August 07, 2010, 03:44:05 PM
I was alternating between two nylon tanks until I realized the madness. 

My 2.0 solution is a 2005 era steel tank!  I'm done with this expansion crap.
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4139/4870567882_0e49264819.jpg)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Triple J on August 07, 2010, 06:43:45 PM
I've had good luck with my 2004 Multi tank...and Multi owners are having the same problems as Monster and SC owners.

I used to ride it daily, so the E10 fuel never had enough time to sit and absorb water. I went through a tank per week easy.

Now that I don't ride it daily, I either use fuel stabilizer (prevents the ethanol from separating, thus making water absorption less likely)...or usually I just empty the tank completely (no fuel = no water).

This strategy seems to be working so far, as I have no tank expansion problems. there are plenty of people with replaced tanks that are newer than mine.

Also, I live on the west coast where humidity levels are relatively low. Anyone notice if the more humid parts of the country are experiencing more problems? It would make sense if water absorption is the culprit.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: somegirl on August 07, 2010, 07:00:35 PM
I've had good luck with my 2004 Multi tank...and Multi owners are having the same problems as Monster and SC owners.

I used to ride it daily, so the E10 fuel never had enough time to sit and absorb water. I went through a tank per week easy.

Now that I don't ride it daily, I either use fuel stabilizer (prevents the ethanol from separating, thus making water absorption less likely)...or usually I just empty the tank completely (no fuel = no water).

This strategy seems to be working so far, as I have no tank expansion problems. there are plenty of people with replaced tanks that are newer than mine.

Also, I live on the west coast where humidity levels are relatively low. Anyone notice if the more humid parts of the country are experiencing more problems? It would make sense if water absorption is the culprit.

I had expansion with my 695, west coast, rode daily and filled tank every 1-2 days.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Bill in OKC on August 07, 2010, 08:50:32 PM
Thus maybe one should just have a pair of tanks and swap them every six months perhaps?

I bought a second tank for custom paint, didn't want to lose the stock tank.  Complete with fuel pump, cap and fittings it is not too bad to swap.  Being able to let the stock tank sit with the cap open and breath for a while is a nice side effect. 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Grappa on August 07, 2010, 10:30:26 PM
This may perhaps be a viable option, though a little expensive...

http://www.moto-works.jp/beater/index.html#d9 (http://www.moto-works.jp/beater/index.html#d9)


No FHE as my moto was a 2001, steel tank, but the aluminum tank is on my list of ultimate WANTS for my next bike.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducpainter on August 08, 2010, 06:50:41 AM
I thought the discussion on plastic tanks in the sticky thread was pretty comprehensive.

Silly me. [roll]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducpainter on August 08, 2010, 06:54:28 AM
<snip> i shouldda just stayed working with Goldcoast, atleast they are only 20 miles away and there are no $11 toolbooths between me and them. I would of gone through the same shit anyway.

well anyway, they said NOW i can email them photos.
Pretty sure that was suggested when you went on a rant about Goldcoast.

Have you ever considered the possibility that it's you...

and not the multiple dealers that others have good experiences with?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: He Man on August 08, 2010, 12:49:25 PM
Have you ever considered the possibility that it's you...

and you say I dont read  ;D, seriously though, i did, 2 pages back.

Just to get more detailed, i chatted with him for a good 30 mins about various stuff, and he was super chill. We were mostly talking about the 1098 he was workign on, and the oil spill in the gulf since it was kinda fresh in the news. I even spoke to the secretary for a bit and joked with her. I'm pretty sure she would remember me purely because of my last name. Also bought some stuff from the parts guy who did not have a nice attitude, just kina "in at 9 out at 5" kinda guy.

Thats why I had just a positive post about rockwell when i submitted my claim with them.

maybe it is me, and if it is, they shouuld tell me wats wrong casue i dont have a clue.

<joke hat>
my last resort is to show up with my friends platnium AMEX and wave it around, buy a new pair of gloves and shwo interest in buying a new bike.
</joke hat>



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Satellite smithy on August 08, 2010, 01:57:29 PM

maybe it is me, and if it is, they shouuld tell me wats wrong casue i dont have a clue.


Easy
You probably show up looking like a kid to them (aka not a customer).
You have a bike that's been down like-6, 7 times, and want a shiny new tank.
Probably an attitude of being tired of all this, as well as one that you're actually owed a new tank.
And after chasing one of these for months, I'm sure your first reaction is t9 be extra patient, no?


No one else has had this much trouble. No one else has had the same issues with the dealers you've gone to (least, not all of 'em).

It's you dude. Drop whatever attitude you're bringing, put on some nice clothes, see how much better life can be.

Wash the bike, too.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: DRKWNG on August 08, 2010, 02:08:36 PM
Wash the bike, too.

Dave?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on August 08, 2010, 02:14:19 PM
Dave's not here, man


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: He Man on August 08, 2010, 07:35:52 PM
Mr. I thanks for telling me i dress like shit. Maybe i should show up in some Bannana Republic dress shirts, pants and shoes instead of my cheap Underamor and Teknic gear and off brand AXO boots.

I got a thick skin to shurg off offensive shit and I'll take constructive critisism to heart and work on it. As much as DP thinks im a douchebag, he will atleast PM me and tell me why he doenst like my attitude. No one likes being told that they need an attitude adjustment and you cant please everyone. but for you to tell me i dress like  a poor make the beast with two backs and ontop of that, that i cant afford nicer gear.....Sorry, I dont have money like you. heres me being 22, not 18 and walking away from this. Theres a bunch of people I actually like on this forum, and I dont feel like getting banned.



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on August 09, 2010, 01:47:52 AM
Everybody lighten up and put their feelings and off-topic opinions back into their purses.

Tanks are explodin' and pregnant dogin' about other stuff won't help.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Monstermash on August 09, 2010, 03:30:50 AM
I thought the discussion on plastic tanks in the sticky thread was pretty comprehensive.

Silly me. [roll]

 Except that it's 50 feakin' pages long!

 I spent some time reading through it but I didn't see anything mentioned regarding sealing the tank. Thats why I started the new thread. Thanks for combining it though. That was a great help.  [roll]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on August 09, 2010, 03:38:48 AM
Except that it's 50 feakin' pages long!

 I spent some time reading through it but I didn't see anything mentioned regarding sealing the tank. Thats why I started the new thread. Thanks for combining it though. That was a great help.  [roll]

There is plenty about sealing the tank, the general consensus is that Caswell will work.  Sorry it's so long, maybe I'll update the first post with some general info soon.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducpainter on August 09, 2010, 03:50:53 AM
Except that it's 50 feakin' pages long!

 I spent some time reading through it but I didn't see anything mentioned regarding sealing the tank. Thats why I started the new thread. Thanks for combining it though. That was a great help.  [roll]
I didn't...

evidently another admin agreed with me.

I'm really sorry you don't have the time to read everyone else input.

Maybe everyone with a plastic tank problem should start their own thread. :-*


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Monstermash on August 09, 2010, 03:56:53 AM
I didn't...

evidently another admin agreed with me.

I'm really sorry you don't have the time to read everyone else input.

Maybe everyone with a plastic tank problem should start their own thread. :-*

 HA!  [laugh]

 I was relating my own experience. Sorry, what was I thinking.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: duccarlos on August 09, 2010, 04:21:45 AM
Back on subject. To discuss the additives, I've been using Star Tron every time I park the bike. I only need to use a cap full per tank if it's going to sit for more than a day, so it's not that expensive. If thr EU wil start using E-10 soon, then we'll probably see Acerbis forced to coat their tanks, since the European manufacturers will most likely put pressure on them.

For the time being, I only see 3 solutions:

1) Buy a none plastic tank
2) Use the additives
3) Coat the tanks


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Bill in OKC on August 09, 2010, 07:55:53 AM
It is too bad that

4. Tell the ethanol cartel/gas companies/gubmint to FIX their F'n fuel.

is not an option.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: duccarlos on August 09, 2010, 08:19:40 AM
Please no political content. It wouldn't do to have this thread locked when it's one of the most important issues affecting our bikes today.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Statler on August 09, 2010, 09:54:15 AM
This one won't get locked.   And there's already class action suits in ca due to the effect the fuel has in tanks in boats. 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Monstermash on August 09, 2010, 11:08:31 AM
This one won't get locked.   And there's already class action suits in ca due to the effect the fuel has in tanks in boats. 

 In Florida too, or so I've read. If memory serves, they are not sueing because of what the fuel does to the tanks but the lack of warning when they started selling the fuel. Or something like that.  ???


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: csp808 on August 09, 2010, 11:52:34 AM
My package from caswells came in the mail today hopefully ill get time this week to take the tank up to my  shop and get it done. Ill let you guys know what i think of it


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: duccarlos on August 09, 2010, 12:14:17 PM
Can you please document the whole procedure? I would be very interested is seeing someone like a "how to".


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducpainter on August 09, 2010, 12:37:48 PM
Can you please document the whole procedure? I would be very interested is seeing someone like a "how to".
I've used the caswell product...

I'd be glad to discuss it offline.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: herm on August 09, 2010, 01:39:00 PM
Back on subject. To discuss the additives, I've been using Star Tron every time I park the bike. I only need to use a cap full per tank if it's going to sit for more than a day, so it's not that expensive. If thr EU wil start using E-10 soon, then we'll probably see Acerbis forced to coat their tanks, since the European manufacturers will most likely put pressure on them.

For the time being, I only see 3 solutions:

1) Buy a none plastic tank
2) Use the additives
3) Coat the tanks

thanks for the input on Star Tron. I may give it a try until I am rid of the plastic tank.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on August 09, 2010, 01:56:02 PM
Stabil also has a marine product for e10 which is more widely available.  I get it at advance auto. 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: duccarlos on August 09, 2010, 01:58:35 PM
I've used the caswell product...

I'd be glad to discuss it offline.

I might just take you up on that offer when I have more $$$ available


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducpainter on August 09, 2010, 03:44:54 PM
Stabil also has a marine product for e10 which is more widely available.  I get it at advance auto. 
Most Walmarts have the Startron.

It works to keep the fuel from causing running issues. No idea if it will keep the tanks from expanding.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: He Man on August 09, 2010, 04:43:59 PM
http://www.caswellplating.com/aids/epoxygas.htm (http://www.caswellplating.com/aids/epoxygas.htm) ? same one? ( no  i didnt search through all 50+ pages)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Monstermash on August 10, 2010, 11:45:00 AM
http://www.caswellplating.com/aids/epoxygas.htm (http://www.caswellplating.com/aids/epoxygas.htm) ? same one? ( no  i didnt search through all 50+ pages)

 It states it "bonds to almost anything except polyethylene" aren't our tanks polyethylene?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on August 10, 2010, 12:21:35 PM
No.  Nylon.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: He Man on August 10, 2010, 01:01:46 PM
It states it "bonds to almost anything except polyethylene" aren't our tanks polyethylene?

i think CA-cycleworks tanks are polyethylene. apparently not even paint sticks to it.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: DRKWNG on August 11, 2010, 02:28:10 PM
Let me know if you want me to get you in touch with owners of either current gen SBK or SF, as a couple of guys I rode with down in Hawaii are going through this now.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Uncle Mofo on August 11, 2010, 02:36:22 PM
Just made my second claim  :(  I wish I had the dough to buy the aluminun one and get it over with.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: DRKWNG on August 11, 2010, 02:37:44 PM
Just made my second claim  :(  I wish I had the dough to but the aluminun one and get it over with

Yea, I'm on my third tank now, and noticed that it had already started to pimple a few days ago...  Tank number four coming to a theater near you...


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Desert Dust on August 14, 2010, 02:44:24 PM
I just received word from my dealer that my tank (07 S2R 1K) would be replaced due to expansion. Will the problem be resolved?



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: DucNaked on August 15, 2010, 08:56:27 AM
I'd say not really. You'll get a new tank, but it will be the same as the old one.  :-\


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Artful on August 16, 2010, 04:07:30 AM
I'm in the club now too. The local dealer has been awesome so far, knew the issue, took the photos and already ordered the new tank. Looking into coating options as I type...


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: He Man on August 16, 2010, 01:58:48 PM
aha! Got an email out of no where from Nick at Rockwell Cycles,  I was starting to loose my faith in them, but they came through!

New tank is en route!!! Nick was kind enough to submit me for a red one. So no more black and gold for me. and no more pirate skulls.

(http://kuixihe.com/gallery/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=550&g2_serialNumber=2)
 

Not sure when it will come in, but regardless of that fact, i will pick it up after my track day and remove it for coating with the caswell stuff immediately. Is there any report on the caswell stuff? does it work? No more having to break out 90 different tools just to  get my tank off. however i will miss the expanded tanks capacity, i was getting over 3.5 gallons of fuel if i ran the light +15 or so miles.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on August 16, 2010, 02:09:04 PM
Caswell is a go.  I am trying to get them to certify it will stick to our nylon tanks.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Uncle Mofo on August 16, 2010, 04:55:49 PM
Caswell is a go.  I am trying to get them to certify it will stick to our nylon tanks.
Cool! I have a new tank coming too.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: DRKWNG on August 21, 2010, 12:24:34 PM
Looks like the new Aprilias are having this same problem as well...

http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=211397 (http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=211397)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: csp808 on August 25, 2010, 11:46:44 AM
Just applied my coating yesterday its cured today. Its a pretty stout compound i poured a test section on a dirty shop table and after 24 hours set time had to razor blade it off. Once off i i noticed it has a degree of flexibility to it seems it would hold up to a crash. The application instructions were pretty spot on but i had to clean my tank several times to get it all the way clean. I used acetone the 1st cleaning but used brake parts cleaner the subsequent cleanings to reduce the chance of damage to the paint and the tank. I'm not recommending anyone use brake clean it may have side effects depending on the chemicals your brand contains may cause adhesion issues or plastic parts to become brittle. I had to repeat the cleaning due to an oil like substance i would find traces of in the tank. Gasoline reside possibly but it had no odor. Following a dish soap cleaning and a 12 hour drying period aided with compressed air I applied the caswells coating its very honey like in appearance and texture. Take your time and roll the tank around slowly i had about 15 to 20 min working time i spent 20 minutes emptying the mixture out as it begins to get very thick. Over all not a fun thing to do but im feeling better having done it and well see how it holds up


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on August 25, 2010, 12:01:45 PM
I believe there are instructions for thinning the Caswell's product.  MEK is what they recommend, but double check with them.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: csp808 on August 25, 2010, 12:06:26 PM
They did have some alternate ways to thin the compound for increasing the working time and splitting between two tanks. I wanted to keep it simple to minimize my clumsiness from screwing up the compound


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: arai_speed on August 26, 2010, 09:37:41 AM
My second tank on my Monster showing pimples now (center of pic) - I've had this new one for about 13 months now:

(http://i36.tinypic.com/350rt4y.jpg)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: He Man on August 26, 2010, 09:50:13 AM
I find that my tank shrinks a bit if im on long trips where i fill up multiple times.

then i found out i can just shave my tank to get it look smooth again. my first attempt did not go so well. i will try again later.

(http://kuixihe.com/gallery/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=1308&g2_serialNumber=2)

you think they will reject me? They already approved and ordered my tank...


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on August 26, 2010, 12:16:15 PM
I find that my tank shrinks a bit if im on long trips where i fill up multiple times.

then i found out i can just shave my tank to get it look smooth again. my first attempt did not go so well. i will try again later.

(http://kuixihe.com/gallery/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=1308&g2_serialNumber=2)

you think they will reject me? They already approved and ordered my tank...

LOL!!!

You crack me up

No, the tank's defect was presented and approved before the damage. 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on August 28, 2010, 04:53:21 AM
Added some research links to the first post.  here they are:

The last PA6 note mentions that PA6 can absorb moisture to 8% of its weight, and that's from a manufacturer of PA6 parts.

Footnotes:
On Nylon 6/PA6
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/pola.1993.080310119/abstract (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/pola.1993.080310119/abstract)
http://www.dsm.com/en_US/html/dep/akulonmoisture.htm (http://www.dsm.com/en_US/html/dep/akulonmoisture.htm)
http://www.springerlink.com/content/h046820627255320/ (http://www.springerlink.com/content/h046820627255320/)
http://www.zellamid.com/show.aspx?SP=2&url=202PA6 (http://www.zellamid.com/show.aspx?SP=2&url=202PA6)

On Ethanol adsorption of water
http://www.springerlink.com/content/j2x43q45660x5617/ (http://www.springerlink.com/content/j2x43q45660x5617/)
http://www.oregon.gov/OSMB/news/E10.shtml (http://www.oregon.gov/OSMB/news/E10.shtml)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Monstermash on August 30, 2010, 04:09:07 AM
Here's an interesting little tidbit of info for you guys....

I just got off the phone with Craig at Caswell. During my discussion he mentioned they have sold some of their fuel tank sealer to DNA for testing and that they were "very pleased" with the result. So I ask you, does that mean that DNA is planning on sealing our tanks with the Caswell sealer prior to shipping out the tanks for warranty replacement? That would make sense wouldn't it? Some people have mentioned having to have their tank replaced more than once and at over $2K per tank this has to be getting expensive for Ducati. I would think a $40 fuel tank sealer kit from Caswell would be a great way to insure that the replacment tank wouldn't have the same problem.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: duccarlos on August 30, 2010, 04:15:38 AM
I'm not sure that the tanks go through DNA. From what I understood, they come straight from Italy to the dealer. DNA might ask the dealers to apply it. Some dealers are impossible to simply have them put in the warranty request, let alone ask them to apply an additional coating.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on August 30, 2010, 05:41:55 AM
Here's an interesting little tidbit of info for you guys....

I just got off the phone with Craig at Caswell. During my discussion he mentioned they have sold some of their fuel tank sealer to DNA for testing and that they were "very pleased" with the result. So I ask you, does that mean that DNA is planning on sealing our tanks with the Caswell sealer prior to shipping out the tanks for warranty replacement? That would make sense wouldn't it? Some people have mentioned having to have their tank replaced more than once and at over $2K per tank this has to be getting expensive for Ducati. I would think a $40 fuel tank sealer kit from Caswell would be a great way to insure that the replacment tank wouldn't have the same problem.

The coating (or some coating very similar) would be applied at the time of manufacture.  Even $40/tank is high.  If it is possible to include it as the last stage of roto-molding, then the per-tank cost drops to materials only and probably absurdly cheap, esp compared to replacing the tanks.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Monstermash on August 30, 2010, 07:43:07 AM
The coating (or some coating very similar) would be applied at the time of manufacture.  Even $40/tank is high.  If it is possible to include it as the last stage of roto-molding, then the per-tank cost drops to materials only and probably absurdly cheap, esp compared to replacing the tanks.

 Exactly. Also, the Caswell kit will do 2 almost 3 of our tanks so even though $40 is a lot for DNA or the dealer to absorb it would be less in quantity.

IMO Ducati should do something other than just keep replacing tanks becasue of the shitty fuel we are required to buy.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Greg on August 31, 2010, 02:02:10 PM
Tank update - San Antonio - After KCI closed shop with my new tank "on order", I finally visited the new Ducati dealership in San Antonio. I explained the situation with KCI and that the tank had apparently been OK'ed for a replacement previously, so they wrote it up and took more pictures to submit to DNA. They said they would be in touch with me as soon as they heard back from DNA.
Hopefully this time I will get a new tank, as the old one is really swelling bad and it's a pregnant dog to unlatch the tank.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducpainter on September 02, 2010, 09:43:36 AM
<snip>
IMO Ducati should do something other than just keep replacing tanks becasue of the shitty fuel we are required to buy.
It seems they're doing the best they can...things take time and Ducati isn't going to spend whatever the cost to coat tanks until they have proof it will solve the problem.

Remember DNA doesn't design the motorcycle...just import and support.

I'm certain that this is costing everyone involved an everyone would like a permanent solution.

Why not talk to your representative about changing the regs regarding fuel?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: J.P. on September 02, 2010, 12:57:28 PM
You're Right!
That does it, I'm gonna write a letter!  :)
 
On a serious note, I found a source of ethanol free, 100 octane, low lead. Local airport. Runs great in the norton and doesn't dissolve the Fiber glass tank, but anyone know what it'll do to a s2r1000?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducpainter on September 02, 2010, 01:12:36 PM
You're Right!
That does it, I'm gonna write a letter!  :)
 
On a serious note, I found a source of ethanol free, 100 octane, low lead. Local airport. Runs great in the norton and doesn't dissolve the Fiber glass tank, but anyone know what it'll do to a s2r1000?
100 octane would most likely carbon up the duc


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Satellite smithy on September 02, 2010, 01:16:12 PM
You're Right!
That does it, I'm gonna write a letter!  :)
 
On a serious note, I found a source of ethanol free, 100 octane, low lead. Local airport. Runs great in the norton and doesn't dissolve the Fiber glass tank, but anyone know what it'll do to a s2r1000?

Low lead sounds uh, unhealthy....


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: csp808 on September 02, 2010, 03:05:34 PM
You're Right!
That does it, I'm gonna write a letter!  :)
 
On a serious note, I found a source of ethanol free, 100 octane, low lead. Local airport. Runs great in the norton and doesn't dissolve the Fiber glass tank, but anyone know what it'll do to a s2r1000?
Likely ruin your o2 sensor


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: rockaduc on September 02, 2010, 11:19:33 PM
You're Right!
That does it, I'm gonna write a letter!  :)
 
On a serious note, I found a source of ethanol free, 100 octane, low lead. Local airport. Runs great in the norton and doesn't dissolve the Fiber glass tank, but anyone know what it'll do to a s2r1000?

Might cause dogs and cats to sleep together.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on September 03, 2010, 03:20:15 AM
You're Right!
That does it, I'm gonna write a letter!  :)
 
On a serious note, I found a source of ethanol free, 100 octane, low lead. Local airport. Runs great in the norton and doesn't dissolve the Fiber glass tank, but anyone know what it'll do to a s2r1000?

probably get it impounded while you stay in jail.

$6.50/gallon near me.  probably cheaper to coat the tank over the long run

Regular pump gas is $2.52 down the street.  $4/gallon premium?  the tank treatment is only $40.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: duccarlos on September 03, 2010, 04:31:44 AM
Has anyone asked Caswell if we can get a good deal in a group buy?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on September 03, 2010, 04:47:57 AM
Has anyone asked Caswell if we can get a good deal in a group buy?

nope, i think they do sell it in larger quantities, problem is reshipping it.  i imagine you could buy a bunch of the motorcycle kits tho.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: J.P. on September 03, 2010, 05:02:27 AM
Lead and o2 sensor- maybe.
Note on caswell: applied it to the norton F-glass tank, must have missed a spot as the ethane fuel kept on attacking it, varnishing up the carbs,head. So application is very important, maybe employing a roto spinning jig thingie or something. The stuff does make a nice coating inside.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on September 03, 2010, 05:17:05 AM
Lead and o2 sensor- maybe.
Note on caswell: applied it to the norton F-glass tank, must have missed a spot as the ethane fuel kept on attacking it, varnishing up the carbs,head. So application is very important, maybe employing a roto spinning jig thingie or something. The stuff does make a nice coating inside.

You have to keep turning the tank when you put it in. Thin it just a bit with MEK (double check that) and keep turning it.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: duccarlos on September 03, 2010, 07:42:58 AM
So finally, how many tanks can you coat with 1 kit?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on September 03, 2010, 09:28:09 AM
So finally, how many tanks can you coat with 1 kit?

probably as many as 3 with the monster pea tank


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: duccarlos on September 03, 2010, 09:40:00 AM
Thanks. I have the owner of Shift-Tech saying that it can barely coat 1. He probably hasn't had to do it on his own bikes. I presume that it's 3 after you thin it out, right?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on September 03, 2010, 09:47:33 AM
The website says up to a 10gal tank!

Thinning it doesn't reduce the volume needed.  It just makes it easier to use.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducpainter on September 03, 2010, 03:03:26 PM
Thinning it doesn't reduce the volume needed. It just makes it easier to use.
IMO...

that is one problem with the Caswell product.

It is not user friendly as packaged.

I also question the process for rusty steel tanks, but that is another topic that doesn't apply for plastic tanks.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: J.P. on September 04, 2010, 03:02:20 AM
You have to keep turning the tank when you put it in. Thin it just a bit with MEK (double check that) and keep turning it.
We used half the kit and rotated it for close to an hour (3 beer count). Unthinned. Thought the coating was complete. Recently rinsed out with MEK. Seems good now. The monster tanks will be easier- if it sticks, should get 2 tanks out of a kit. BTW- the norton tank had gas inside since 1969, and seems to have accepted the coating well after degreasing.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Old-Duckman on September 04, 2010, 07:57:37 AM
I bought the Caswell "Car" kit, "1 quart". IMO it was a bit confusing. The box it came in said "1  Pint kit" yet there was a sticker on the front of the box that read "Car kit". I called to make sure I had the right size that I had paid for...I did.

Anyway I have had my S2R1000 tank replaced about 6 weeks ago. I had purchased a used tank off a guy on the old DML probably in '07' ? I started to sand it back then and well, you know how that goes.

So anyway I thought that it would be wise to Caswell the new Monster tank but also thought it would be a good idea to "practice" on the used tank since I needed to repaint it anyway. At the same time I am putting a fiberglass tank for one of my GTs into service that I had bought from Syd's Cycles in the mid 90's. Never been used yet.

I cleaned the Monster tank out first as directed...Don't be as stupid as I was and followed the instructions to put drywall screws in the tank when you wash it out with Dawn detergent and hot water. I used #6 x 1" drywall screws, about a small handful. What a nightmare getting those out, what with the plastic coated hoses running through the Monster tank. Ended up using a bent welding rod to pry some out. (One even showed up while I was sloshing the Caswell around during application). The reason they have you put them in there is to "roughen up" the surface so the product sticks well...The screws did no roughening up that I could see...just a nightmare and waste of time. Needless to say, I skipped that step when cleaning the GT tank.

So I did add 1 oz. of lacquer thinner as suggested. I mixed the product in Pyrex measuring cup, using a silicone spatula that I picked up at WalMart for less than $2. I mixed per instructions and that went well. I split the product between the two tanks and rotated one, set it aside, rotated the other set it aside, back and forth until the products was solidifing pretty well. When I set one tank down to pick up the other, I changed sides that were resting on the floor. In other words, first time I would set it on its base, next time on its top, next time on its side...etc. I would occassionslly pick up the Pyrex measuring cup and roll what remained in it to see how it was curing. I'd bet that I was doing that process for well over an hour. They tell you to pour out the remaining product...Well I had rotated the tanks so long that I barely had a couple of drops run out. Set them aside over night but first cut off any excess sealer while it was pretty well set-up. This was more on the GT tank than the Monster, Mostly around the filler neck.

BTW, I had cut out and attached to the tank a 1/16" thick aluminum plate that fit over the fuel pump opening. I have a CAD drawing that can be printed out (Full Scale !) and used as a glue-on template to use for making a cover (PM me if you want the template drawing and I will email it to you). I fastened this to the opening with the stock screws but had to stack washers to get a tight fit. When I do it for my replacement Monster tank I will cut a cork gasket to go between the tank and the aluminum cover as using just the aluminum, some sealer leaked out during the rotating process. My template is a full circle so you do have to trim part of the circle off to clear a curve in the tank...this cut is not shown on my template drawing.

Overall the process was pretty pain free. Seems like I have a nice, tight, full coverage coating on both tanks...and still have enough left to do two more tanks.

Time will tell if the sealer does what it is supposed to.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: J.P. on September 05, 2010, 12:42:14 AM
I still refuse to coat the monster tank, may void any warrenty.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Old-Duckman on September 05, 2010, 01:46:21 AM
I still refuse to coat the monster tank, may void any warrenty.
I ran that thought through my mind too and I have not yet coated my warranty replacement tank but I do plan to. Here is my reasoning:

If the Caswell works, I will not need another (2nd) warranty replacement. If it does not and the 2nd replacement tank swells, by the time Ducati would get the 2nd bad tank (for physical inspection), I would already have the 3rd replacement on the bike.

When they checked my bad tank at the dealership, all they did was look at it from the outside and took photos. Even if they would open the cap and look inside, the Caswell sealer is glass clear and would, most likely, not be noticed.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: duccarlos on September 05, 2010, 08:31:50 AM
I still refuse to coat the monster tank, may void any warrenty.

Exactly why would it void the warranty? They would have to prove that the Caswell coating was the cause of the swelling


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on September 05, 2010, 10:05:11 AM
I still refuse to coat the monster tank, may void any warrenty.

yeah, everyone (incl me) that has had a tank replaced, it was only an external inspection.  i could have filled my tank with toulene for all they knew (i didn't)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: herm on September 05, 2010, 01:22:01 PM
i may just enjoy the silver lining in this tank problem...

every time i have to replace my tank (haven't had to yet) I will try out a new color [thumbsup]

much cheaper than constantly repainting it.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Old-Duckman on September 06, 2010, 02:22:02 AM
i may just enjoy the silver lining in this tank problem...

every time i have to replace my tank (haven't had to yet) I will try out a new color [thumbsup]

much cheaper than constantly repainting it.
I'm sure that your post is tongue in cheek...but the only reason Ducati HAS to replace the tanks after the standard 2 year warranty is that the tank is considered part of the emissions system and by govt. mandate, that must be covered for 5 years.

So, that said, I don't think (though I may be in error here) that once your bike is 5 years old, the tank could grow as big as a house and Ducati would be under no obligation to replace it. I see no reason not to use the Caswell "solution". I'm just hoping that it really is a solution not just a waste of my time and money...


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on September 06, 2010, 07:51:04 AM
I'm sure that your post is tongue in cheek...but the only reason Ducati HAS to replace the tanks after the standard 2 year warranty is that the tank is considered part of the emissions system and by govt. mandate, that must be covered for 5 years.

So, that said, I don't think (though I may be in error here) that once your bike is 5 years old, the tank could grow as big as a house and Ducati would be under no obligation to replace it. I see no reason not to use the Caswell "solution". I'm just hoping that it really is a solution not just a waste of my time and money...

5 years OR ~18,000 miles, whichever comes first.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: rustoric on September 09, 2010, 07:35:50 AM
Went out and had a look at my new (to me) 695's tank, sure enough it was badly expanded, the right mount barely touches the frame and there's a 1/4 inch gap between the ignition and black cover.  I signed up for the group, filled out the survey and the NHTSA report.

I just got back from Ducati Miami who were super cool about it. Rudolf (think he was a manager) came out, took some pictures and had me fill out the form, if it's in stock they'll have it in about a week, if not 2-3.

Just wanted to thank Ducatiz and DMF or i probably wouldn't have known anything was wrong right past the warranty period


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Artful on September 09, 2010, 08:21:10 AM
Bike is in getting the tank replaced now, should have it back tomorrow. Of course it's one of the most beautiful riding days of the year...

One annoying thing is that I asked the dealer if I could have the tank for a few days before they put it on to coat it with the Caswell product. They said no, I explained that the issue is just going to happen again and that I'd like to avoid the hassle. They said that "the new tanks don't have the same problem".

I hate when people try to blow smoke up my ass. If they weren't so close I would have taken it somewhere else.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: duccarlos on September 09, 2010, 08:27:59 AM
Tha's just not right.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Pinocchio on September 09, 2010, 10:51:14 AM
Tell them to put just enough gas in it to get you home. Ride home. Remove tank. Empty tank. Allow to dry. Proceed to coat tank. Fit tank and refill with gas. Ride bike.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Artful on September 09, 2010, 10:55:20 AM
That's definitely the plan over the winter.

Is there a write-up on what all needs to be removed before coating?

*hits search button frantically*


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Old-Duckman on September 09, 2010, 12:06:42 PM
That's definitely the plan over the winter.

Is there a write-up on what all needs to be removed before coating?

*hits search button frantically*

Ain't much there to remove. Once you get the tank off, which is very easy due to the quick release connestions and the clip that holds the pivot pin in, (Oh, I would first suggest that you siphon all of gas you can get out of the tank first before you do anything).

Remove the tank from the bike. Remove the fuel pump (the big circular thing you see on the bottom of your tank). Remove the gas cap. I would remove the two hoses on the bottom of the tank (not really needed but just gets them out of your way). That is it...Do your thing with the sealer.

If you read my post from the page before this one, I go over fairly well what I did and how it worked for me. It is not a difficult job at all, just time consuming. My biggest suggestion is to ignore the drywall screw step on the Caswell instructions. The Monster tank just has way too many areas where those pesky screws wanna get stuck.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Greg on September 10, 2010, 11:58:47 AM
Tank update - San Antonio - After KCI closed shop with my new tank "on order", I finally visited the new Ducati dealership in San Antonio. I explained the situation with KCI and that the tank had apparently been OK'ed for a replacement previously, so they wrote it up and took more pictures to submit to DNA. They said they would be in touch with me as soon as they heard back from DNA.
Hopefully this time I will get a new tank, as the old one is really swelling bad and it's a pregnant dog to unlatch the tank.

Just got a call back from the dealer and they said I have been approved, they will call me again once my tank comes in.  [thumbsup]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: mitt on September 15, 2010, 05:13:25 AM
Motorcycles are not the only vehicles having this pain.  My 2006 Nissan Xterra is in the shop for the 3rd time to address the NHTSA Campaign ID number :     10V075000

"NISSAN IS RECALLING CERTAIN MODEL YEAR 2006 AND MODEL YEAR 2008 FRONTIER, XTERRA AND PATHFINDER VEHICLES. THE MOLDED FUEL TANK SHELLS CAN DEFORM, CAUSING THE FUEL SENDER FLOAT ARM TO CONTACT AN EMBOSSMENT MOLDED INTO THE TANK SHELL CAUSING THE INSTRUMENT PANEL FUEL GAUGE TO SHOW THAT THE VEHICLE HAS APPROXIMATELY ONE QUARTER TANK WHEN THE FUEL TANK IS EMPTY.
Consequence:
THIS COULD CAUSE THE VEHICLE TO RUN OUT OF GAS AND STALL IN TRAFFIC, INCREASING THE RISK OF A CRASH.
Remedy:
DEALERS WILL REPLACE THE FUEL LEVEL SENDING UNIT INSIDE THE FUEL TANK WITH A NEW ONE THAT HAS A MODIFIED FLOAT ARM. THIS SERVICE WILL BE PERFORMED FREE OF CHARGE. THE SAFETY RECALL IS EXPECTED TO BEGIN ON OR BEFORE MARCH 22, 2010. OWNERS MAY CONTACT NISSAN AT 1-800-647-7261."


Nissan replacing the float arm is not treating the root cause of the tank problem, and I am getting very upset with it.  IMO, the tank is the problem and should be replaced, and it will probably deform again just like the Ducati tanks are doing.

On the upside, if enough people register on the NHTSA site for this problem, a real recall may be issued.

I pressed the dealer for a new Nissan tank under the emissions warranty, but he said it is not a major part, which jives with the EPA's definition, but upsets me that the fuel tank is not a major emissions part !?!

link to EPA's definition    http://www.epa.gov/oms/consumer/warr95fs.txt (http://www.epa.gov/oms/consumer/warr95fs.txt)

mitt


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Artful on September 15, 2010, 05:16:06 AM
Lol the tank is expanding and causing the float to fail... so their first reaction is to replace the float...  ???

In this circumstance DNA is coming up roses!


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on September 15, 2010, 08:26:28 AM
Those tanks are multilayer HDPE, not PA6 nylon.  HDPE will warp but not due to water absorption like PA6.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: mitt on September 15, 2010, 11:03:19 AM
Still, tell me how the tank is not a "major emissions part" according the EPA?  A quick google lists all sorts of emissions considerations for steel VS plastic, plastic layer design, how the seams are sealed, gaskets and fittings etc, etc.

One of the basic emissions problems is fuel evaporation, and almost all plastic tanks evaporate gas - some significantly enough that they can't be used on ultra low emission vehicles.

mitt


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on September 15, 2010, 11:29:29 AM
Still, tell me how the tank is not a "major emissions part" according the EPA?  A quick google lists all sorts of emissions considerations for steel VS plastic, plastic layer design, how the seams are sealed, gaskets and fittings etc, etc.

One of the basic emissions problems is fuel evaporation, and almost all plastic tanks evaporate gas - some significantly enough that they can't be used on ultra low emission vehicles.

mitt

it's not because whatever EPA qualification they are using says its not.

it's not a logical definition, it's a legal one.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: mitt on September 15, 2010, 01:08:30 PM
it's not because whatever EPA qualification they are using says its not.

Can you provide a link to what is legally a major emissions part?  According to my link above, the EPA defines it and the gas tank (including Ducati) should not be considered an emission part. 


" There are three specified major emission control components,
covered for the first 8 years or 80,000 miles of vehicle use on 1995
and newer vehicles:

          * Catalytic converters.

          * The electronic emissions control unit or computer (ECU).

          * The onboard emissions diagnostic device or computer (OBD)."



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on September 15, 2010, 01:20:13 PM
Can you provide a link to what is legally a major emissions part?  According to my link above, the EPA defines it and the gas tank (including Ducati) should not be considered an emission part.  


" There are three specified major emission control components,
covered for the first 8 years or 80,000 miles of vehicle use on 1995
and newer vehicles:

          * Catalytic converters.

          * The electronic emissions control unit or computer (ECU).

          * The onboard emissions diagnostic device or computer (OBD)."



It is specific to each vehicle, I don't know if it is by type, but if you look in your owner's manual, Ducati states it is.

I think I have a scan of the page somewhere.  It is the "USA Specific Warranty" page.

here is the txt:

Quote
United States Environmental Protection Agency and the
California Air Resources Board. Any part or parts replaced
under this warranty shall become the property of Ducati.
In the state of California only, emissions related warranted
parts are specifically defined by that state’s Emissions
Warranty Parts List. These warranted parts are: carburetor
and internal parts; intake manifold; fuel tank, fuel injection
system; spark advance mechanism; crankcase breather;
air cutoff valves; fuel tank cap for evaporative emission
controlled vehicles; oil filler cap; pressure control valve;
fuel/vapor separator; canister; igniters; breaker governors;
ignition coils; ignition wires; ignition points, condensers,
and spark plugs if failure occors prior to the first scheduled
replacement, and hoses, clamps, fittings and tubing used
directly in these parts.
Since emission related parts may
vary from model to model, certain models may not contain
all of these parts and certain models may contain
functionally equivalent parts.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: howie on September 15, 2010, 04:50:06 PM
Still, tell me how the tank is not a "major emissions part" according the EPA?  A quick google lists all sorts of emissions considerations for steel VS plastic, plastic layer design, how the seams are sealed, gaskets and fittings etc, etc.

One of the basic emissions problems is fuel evaporation, and almost all plastic tanks evaporate gas - some significantly enough that they can't be used on ultra low emission vehicles whether covered by warranty or not..

mitt

Broken down to simple terms, the evaporative emissions test  is to put the vehicle in a big air tight container over a period of time and measure the amount of hydrocarbons that escaped the vehicle.  Under the limit, the car passes.  

If the EPA discovers an emissions problem with fuel tanks they can recall those vehicles whether covered by warranty or not.  


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: mitt on September 15, 2010, 05:19:15 PM
It is specific to each vehicle, I don't know if it is by type, but if you look in your owner's manual, Ducati states it is.




I looked up my nissan warranty book, and it pretty much lines up with the EPA page I linked and quoted.  The only parts covered by the extended emission warranty are considered major, and is the ecu, cat converter, and the on board diagnostic computer.

mitt


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on September 15, 2010, 05:22:51 PM

I looked up my nissan warranty book, and it pretty much lines up with the EPA page I linked and quoted.  The only parts covered by the extended emission warranty are considered major, and is the ecu, cat converter, and the on board diagnostic computer.

mitt

the EPA page probably specifies a minimum then.  manufacturers are free to add.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Kurt V on September 16, 2010, 03:38:42 AM
I skimmed the 56 pages on this problem and didn't see this posted, maybe I just missed it. Anyways I have a 2009 696, purchased new in June 2009. Presently have 1500 miles on it. Last week it started leaking fuel. A pretty steady drip. I pull the tank and see gas all over the rear bottom of the tank. Trailer it up to the Ducati dealer. They call me yesterday and tell me the tank is deformed around where the fuel pump connects. Then they ask me if I tried to seal it myself as there was some type of white sealer around the fuel pump connection. I told them no as I only looked to see where the leak was from. They then tell me as it is not important as the tank is deformed around where the fuel pump connects and that they will be replacing my tank and a new fuel pump seal. Told me the tank is $1000 and will take two weeks to get in! Fortunately it is covered under warranty and they are replacing it for free.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducpainter on September 16, 2010, 03:50:21 AM
I know a guy with a multi that is leaking from the pump flange too...


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on September 16, 2010, 03:59:46 AM
I skimmed the 56 pages on this problem and didn't see this posted, maybe I just missed it. Anyways I have a 2009 696, purchased new in June 2009. Presently have 1500 miles on it. Last week it started leaking fuel. A pretty steady drip. I pull the tank and see gas all over the rear bottom of the tank. Trailer it up to the Ducati dealer. They call me yesterday and tell me the tank is deformed around where the fuel pump connects. Then they ask me if I tried to seal it myself as there was some type of white sealer around the fuel pump connection. I told them no as I only looked to see where the leak was from. They then tell me as it is not important as the tank is deformed around where the fuel pump connects and that they will be replacing my tank and a new fuel pump seal. Told me the tank is $1000 and will take two weeks to get in!

That should be a warranty repair.

DO NOT PAY THEM TO FIX THE TANK.  You need to push them on it, call Ducati in Cali and talk to someone in customer service.



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Kurt V on September 16, 2010, 04:52:05 AM
That should be a warranty repair.
DO NOT PAY THEM TO FIX THE TANK.  You need to push them on it, call Ducati in Cali and talk to someone in customer service.

Sorry I should have been clearer. They are covering it under warranty.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: jgrm1 on September 22, 2010, 03:34:54 AM
With my old Triumph’s steel petrol tank, I always parked it full of fuel to prevent corrosion forming inside the tank.  After replacing the sender plate on my BMW after seeing how corroded it was, I wondered whether it is better to now park that bike full or low on fuel if it will sit for a week or so.  Now, after having the fuel tank on my Ducati replaced because of swelling (apparently) caused by today’s ethanol laced fuel, I started parking that bike without filling up to try to reduce exposing the tank to whatever in the fuel is causing it to swell.  What are you doing?  Parking full or low on fuel?  Does it matter?

-Jeff


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on September 22, 2010, 04:25:05 AM
With my old Triumph’s steel petrol tank, I always parked it full of fuel to prevent corrosion forming inside the tank.  After replacing the sender plate on my BMW after seeing how corroded it was, I wondered whether it is better to now park that bike full or low on fuel if it will sit for a week or so.  Now, after having the fuel tank on my Ducati replaced because of swelling (apparently) caused by today’s ethanol laced fuel, I started parking that bike without filling up to try to reduce exposing the tank to whatever in the fuel is causing it to swell.  What are you doing?  Parking full or low on fuel?  Does it matter?

-Jeff

what matters more is keeping the fuel from phase separation.  that means cycling it frequently, draining the tank, or using some kind of additive like Startron or Stabil. 

also, heat.  once the fuel separates, heat accelerates the absorption of water into the tank walls.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: jgrm1 on September 22, 2010, 11:27:21 AM
once the fuel separates, heat accelerates the absorption of water into the tank walls.

I'm screwed then living in hot and humid East Texas.  I'll just enjoy the heck out of the bike until this tank bloats beyond servicable limits, then figure out what to do.

-Jeff


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on September 22, 2010, 12:09:52 PM
Use stabil marine and run it til near empty before filling up.  If you store it, drain it and put one of those milsuro desiccant bags in the filler.

Good luck.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on September 22, 2010, 12:10:37 PM
Also look into getting it coated.  That will stop it.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: mjk778 on September 22, 2010, 04:37:06 PM
Just signed up to the yahoo group.  06 S2r1000.  Although not a bad as some of the others on here, I am def experiencing similar issues.  Ducati SOHO told me that after time the tank will stop expanding??  They also told me nothing can be done unless fuel is leaking.  Appreciate you taking on this cause and will offer any upport necesary.

Mike


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on September 22, 2010, 04:58:08 PM
Just signed up to the yahoo group.  06 S2r1000.  Although not a bad as some of the others on here, I am def experiencing similar issues.  Ducati SOHO told me that after time the tank will stop expanding??  They also told me nothing can be done unless fuel is leaking.  Appreciate you taking on this cause and will offer any upport necesary.

Mike

You are the 3rd or 4th person sold that line of BS from Ducati Soho. 

Ducati NA is replacing every tank that is showing deformation.  There is no "fuel must be leaking" rule, and I have that in an email directly from DNA.  Take it to another dealer, and with it, the rest of your business.



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: rockaduc on September 22, 2010, 11:37:42 PM
Just signed up to the yahoo group.  06 S2r1000.  Although not a bad as some of the others on here, I am def experiencing similar issues.  Ducati SOHO told me that after time the tank will stop expanding??  They also told me nothing can be done unless fuel is leaking.  Appreciate you taking on this cause and will offer any upport necesary.

Mike
Duc SOHO really sucks.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: psycledelic on September 23, 2010, 12:33:17 AM
I'm late to the party, but had my tank inspected at Ducati of Charlotte yesterday.  They ordered a warrantied replacement without question or hassle.  I assume it will be prone to the same defect though.  I signed up via email earlier this morning. 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: CDawg on September 23, 2010, 02:03:50 AM
Getting my replacement tank today.  Self-paid for Caswell.  Will keep everyone posted.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: duccarlos on September 23, 2010, 04:20:36 AM
Tiz, what cn be done about dealers like Ducati SoHo? Not all people are on the forum or actually do research. This is a case of a dealer obviously providing incorrect information. Can DNA step in and do something about it?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on September 23, 2010, 07:37:41 AM
Tiz, what cn be done about dealers like Ducati SoHo? Not all people are on the forum or actually do research. This is a case of a dealer obviously providing incorrect information. Can DNA step in and do something about it?

I brought it up with them previously, I don't know what they did with the information.  Other than people calling up Ducati NA in California and saying they are taking their business elsewhere, DucSoho has a franchise contract or some similar arrangement.  Ducati NA doesn't lose business if you go to another Ducati dealer.

The best thing to do is call Ducati NA directly, they have a good cust service line I have found and so far people are getting good info from them.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: mjk778 on September 25, 2010, 09:24:51 PM
You are the 3rd or 4th person sold that line of BS from Ducati Soho. 

Ducati NA is replacing every tank that is showing deformation.  There is no "fuel must be leaking" rule, and I have that in an email directly from DNA.  Take it to another dealer, and with it, the rest of your business.



Im going to call Rockwell cycles on Tuesday.  If I do get the tank replaced I would like have it coated with Caswell's liner as to avoid issues in the future. Anyone know if this will be done by the dealer or can I request to do this myself prior to putting the tank on?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on September 26, 2010, 01:59:32 AM
Im going to call Rockwell cycles on Tuesday.  If I do get the tank replaced I would like have it coated with Caswell's liner as to avoid issues in the future. Anyone know if this will be done by the dealer or can I request to do this myself prior to putting the tank on?

Most likely they can do it, I have read of multiple dealers around the country even offering it as part of the tank replacement (but you gotta pay).. A kit is about $40 and figure 2 hours labor typical.   

There are about a half dozen multistrada guys I have talked to who have had the coating running now well over a year and zero issues.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: duccarlos on September 26, 2010, 04:46:19 AM
I talked to my dealer yesterday. I'm going to pay for the kit and bring it in. We will coat my tank and their personal tanks as well. If it works out I'm hoping they will also start coating the tanks for the additional fee. $40 is a small price to pay to get at least 1 dealer to do the right thing.

Can anyone post a link to the Caswell site so that I can order the kit?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducpainter on September 26, 2010, 04:49:11 AM
I talked to my dealer yesterday. I'm going to pay for the kit and bring it in. We will coat my tank and their personal tanks as well. If it works out I'm hoping they will also start coating the tanks for the additional fee. $40 is a small price to pay to get at least 1 dealer to do the right thing.

Can anyone post a link to the Caswell site so that I can order the kit?
Dood...

Is google broken there?  [roll]

http://www.caswellplating.com/aids/epoxygas.htm (http://www.caswellplating.com/aids/epoxygas.htm)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: duccarlos on September 26, 2010, 06:08:24 AM
Too lazy and I was confident that my neighborhood humorless painter would reply.

BTW, in the same conversation I had with the dealer he explained that there are laws in Florida where I dealer can not refuse to do warranty work. Are there similar laws in NY?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on September 26, 2010, 06:11:10 AM
Too lazy and I was confident that my neighborhood humorless painter would reply.

BTW, in the same conversation I had with the dealer he explained that there are laws in Florida where I dealer can not refuse to do warranty work. Are there similar laws in NY?

that's interesting, i'd like to see the statute in Florida.  I am aware of nothing in NY that requires the >dealer< to do the work, but of course there are state laws which affect a >manufacturer< who sells a warranted good in NY.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducpainter on September 26, 2010, 06:19:55 AM
Most manufacturers, or distributors, have clauses in the franchise agreement that requires that dealers perform warranty work.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: duccarlos on September 27, 2010, 02:20:10 AM
But from what we see in this situation, DNA is not forcing their dealers to do the warranty work. When he told me I first thought it was under the lemon law, but it's something separate.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: IamSMC on September 27, 2010, 05:19:43 AM
Most manufacturers, or distributors, have clauses in the franchise agreement that requires that dealers perform warranty work.

I assume the clauses involves reimbursement to the dealer from Ducati NA for work performed at the dealer for the warranty work.

But with Ducati Soho Manhattan, are these bozos just avoiding dealing with the reimbursement process with Ducati NA? (Assuming IF there is a issue with reimbursement.)

I find the excuse, "it has to be leaking", to refuse warranty replacement seems at odds with safety issue.

When I asked the service manager , the one that refused to submit a warranty claim on my tank, why would Ducati NA wait for fuel to drip onto the engine and involve other related issues with leaking fuel, or even a fire hazard, he was silent on the inquiry...


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: mjk778 on September 27, 2010, 06:10:43 AM
I brought it up with them previously, I don't know what they did with the information.  Other than people calling up Ducati NA in California and saying they are taking their business elsewhere, DucSoho has a franchise contract or some similar arrangement.  Ducati NA doesn't lose business if you go to another Ducati dealer.

The best thing to do is call Ducati NA directly, they have a good cust service line I have found and so far people are getting good info from them.

Just called Ducati NA to inform them of the issues with the tank swelling, as well as Ducati SOHO misinforming me that the tank needs to be leaking.  Ducati NA rep was aware of SOHO giving incorrect information to customers, documented our conversation, and told me to bring it up to Nick at Rockwell cycles.  I'm going to make the appointment tomorrow.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducpainter on September 27, 2010, 07:07:21 AM
But from what we see in this situation, DNA is not forcing their dealers to do the warranty work. When he told me I first thought it was under the lemon law, but it's something separate.


We don't know what goes on behind the scenes.

If my dealer told me no and I knew they had their heads wedged, I'd thank DNA for pointing me in a better direction. If you were a distributor of a product and you had multiple dealers in a metro area would you force the dealer to do the work, probably piss off the customer, or worse have a bunch of pissed off people force federal involvement...

or find a dealer that understands they make money when they do warranty work and even more from happy customers?

It seems, to me at least, that some people are trying to vilify DNA.

I think they're doing a pretty good job in a sucky situation.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: duccarlos on September 27, 2010, 07:43:07 AM
I think this whole thread has shown that DNA has been doing the right thing.

In South Florida there was a dealer that completely sucked. DNA had been trying for years to kill that relationship, but it wasn't until the dealer went under that they were able to get away from the situation. Like you said DP, it might be that DNA is not happy with SoHo for many reasons and they're doing their best to point people to the better dealer.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: mjk778 on September 27, 2010, 10:16:39 AM
I agree that DNA seemed to be very sympathetic to the whole situation.  He informed that the regional DNA rep was aware that Ducati SOHO was giving wrong info to customers and working to rectify the situation.  I also told him that if it was not for the wrong info from SOHO I would have had a new tank a year ago.  Now I am close to having a 5 year old bike, told him about the 5 year emissions warranty and he told me that even if I went over that time period, as long as the proper paperwork and pictures are sent to the regional rep, the tank would be replaced as a good will gesture.  I was very impressed by DNA customer service.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Artful on September 27, 2010, 11:35:41 AM
he told me that even if I went over that time period, as long as the proper paperwork and pictures are sent to the regional rep, the tank would be replaced as a good will gesture.  I was very impressed by DNA customer service.

That is an INCREDIBLE backing from a manufacturer. I've had various manufacturers in the past tell me that the day my warranty expired I was pretty much up a creek. Hopefully I never have to test their resolve, but having a rep state that makes me confident that they have at least considered the scenario.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: victor441 on September 27, 2010, 03:47:28 PM
FWIW in case the problem IS indeed ethanol, this site lists ethanol free gas stations by state...
http://www.pure-gas.org/ (http://www.pure-gas.org/)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on September 28, 2010, 12:50:26 AM
You've missed a few pages!

Yes its due to ethanol and yes that's been posted but that site hasn't been updated for a year.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: victor441 on September 28, 2010, 01:50:58 PM
You've missed a few pages!

Yes its due to ethanol and yes that's been posted but that site hasn't been updated for a year.

sorry about that...but since there are 58 it was easy to miss a few ;)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on September 28, 2010, 03:57:19 PM
sorry about that...but since there are 58 it was easy to miss a few ;)

I've summarized the known facts in the first post.  Check it out.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: jgrm1 on September 30, 2010, 07:05:22 AM
10.  Ducati NA seems to be engaged, but not to the extent we'd all like them to be.  That doesn't mean a solution isn't coming, but it also doesn't mean a solution is coming at all.  The best thing for me to do is continue working with them until I am convinced there is no more effort on their part.  I do not currently have a timeline, there is no statute of limitations for a defect suit of this type.

Excellent summary.  Thank you for updating page one to save us from scanning the latest posts for nuggets of information.  Has DNA indicated whether they are considering supplying replacement tanks with a coating or made from a better material?

-Jeff


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: duccarlos on September 30, 2010, 07:27:05 AM
Just ordered the kit. I'll keep you guys posted on how well it goes with the dealer. My hope is that they start charging extra for the sealer, hopefully when they sell the bikes instead of after the tank expands.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Meerkat on October 01, 2010, 07:05:24 PM
Just bought an 07 S2R1K with the tank expanded til hell wouldn't have it. Can't even raise the tank it's expanded so much. Headed to the Ducpond tomorrow for the Ducati Experience Truck and figure I'll have them look at it and start the process to get it replaced.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on October 01, 2010, 07:22:52 PM
Just bought an 07 S2R1K with the tank expanded til hell wouldn't have it. Can't even raise the tank it's expanded so much. Headed to the Ducpond tomorrow for the Ducati Experience Truck and figure I'll have them look at it and start the process to get it replaced.

I wonder if the Ducati Experience includes a tank blowing?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Desert Dust on October 02, 2010, 04:09:10 PM
My tank has expanded so much that the top triple clamp hits the tank on the left side.
Luckily, my new tank has arrived. However, my dealer cautioned against coating the new tank. The dealer stated that he has had only one problem of the new tanks expanding out of several hundred replacements. I hope he's right.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: mjk778 on October 02, 2010, 05:19:10 PM
My tank has expanded so much that the top triple clamp hits the tank on the left side.
Luckily, my new tank has arrived. However, my dealer cautioned against coating the new tank. The dealer stated that he has had only one problem of the new tanks expanding out of several hundred replacements. I hope he's right.

Just out of curiosity, why did he caution against coating?  I am in the same situation, actually had my bike checked out today by Rockwell Cycles today and they recommended using Caswell to coat.  They did not guarantee it's effectiveness as it's only been a year since they started coating but stated that the replacement tank is the same as the old one.  Coating seems to be the only precautionary measure to take.  Did your dealer advise against for warranty issues or another reason?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Desert Dust on October 02, 2010, 07:33:15 PM
Just out of curiosity, why did he caution against coating?  I am in the same situation, actually had my bike checked out today by Rockwell Cycles today and they recommended using Caswell to coat.  They did not guarantee it's effectiveness as it's only been a year since they started coating but stated that the replacement tank is the same as the old one.  Coating seems to be the only precautionary measure to take.  Did your dealer advise against for warranty issues or another reason?
He said that sometimes the coating does not stick, then you have chunks of coating floating around with the fuel. He also said that coating could void any future warranties.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: mjk778 on October 02, 2010, 07:47:01 PM
He said that sometimes the coating does not stick, then you have chunks of coating floating around with the fuel. He also said that coating could void any future warranties.

Thanks for the feedback.  That's interesting.  I'm wondering if he was talking about the Caswell's or other Liner's?  I read about other epoxy's online causing this but not Cawell's.  Anyone else have any feed back on this?  As far as warranty's go, I'm at 4 1/2 years right now so my warranty is almost up anyway.  Plus how would they know if you had the inside of the tank lined?  It is clear from what I understand.  Too be honest, I'm sick of this tank issue already.  Just want to Ride!


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on October 03, 2010, 08:56:44 AM
He said that sometimes the coating does not stick, then you have chunks of coating floating around with the fuel. He also said that coating could void any future warranties.

On a new tank, there is no evidence I've seen that Caswell will have any problem.  I personally know of 7 guys with multistradas with the coating for over a year now and at least another 6 more multis and monsters ranging from 4 to 12 months. 

It has been tested and there have been no adhesion issues.

If you are using the coating on a USED tank, then preparation is incredibly important and there MAY be adhesion issues if you do not prepare it correctly.  That means draining, cleaning, rinsing and letting it dry for a while in a dry environment.  If you are in a lot of humidity, then figure out a way to move it to a low humidity location and let it sit and air out and dry. 

Roughing the surface doesn't help.  But I recommend removing the air bubbles from the inner surface of the tank.  These are obvious when you see them, they are artifacts from the rotomolding.  Basically, they are a pimple -- a very thin bubble on the surface of the tank.  Cut the thin surface off with an exacto knife.  The tank is about 3/4" thick and you will have to try hard to puncture it, but go slow and just remove the bubble.  If the coating is on the bubble and somehow it breaks, gasoline/ethanol can penetrate under it and it can lift.



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Meerkat on October 04, 2010, 02:45:50 AM
I wonder if the Ducati Experience includes a tank blowing?
Let's hope not. Ended up shooting the shit and test riding a hyper instead of having the Pond look at my tank. Guess I'll just take to the locals...


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Meerkat on October 08, 2010, 03:37:33 PM
Ran my s2r1k by Coleman Powersports in Falls Church to get pics taken of the tank (bubbles on sides and latch pressed into ignition). They tell me it'll be spring before it gets approved and a tank floats over from littl'ol Itly!


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on October 08, 2010, 03:42:14 PM
What color is your tank?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: duccarlos on October 08, 2010, 06:09:44 PM
That's weird cause I got my tank from Italy in about a week. Weird.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: mjk778 on October 10, 2010, 05:03:08 PM
So one week to the day that I brought my bike in to Rockwell cycles I found out that I was approved by DNA for  replacement tank.  As soon as it arrives they are sending it out to have it coated with Caswell's.  To say I am Psyched is an understatement!  This whole tank issue left me a little bitter towards Ducati, but following the process outlined here was simple.  To anyone who deals with a dealership that has given them the runaround (SOHO for me) my advice is simple...Find another dealer.  Anyone in the NYC area go to Rockwell Cycles.  They are awesome to deal with.

Mike


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: corvtt1969 on October 11, 2010, 04:17:50 PM
i called colemans in woodbridge(only cause i couldnt get thru at the falls church store) and they said it takes about a month for a new tank, and bring it in to the falls church store where their ducati tech was working. Im going wednesday to hopefully have this resolved. Will post results wednesday night. they also said if i didnt want to leave my bike there, id have to put a deposit down on the tank which was in the 1800$ range.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on October 11, 2010, 04:46:00 PM
i called colemans in woodbridge(only cause i couldnt get thru at the falls church store) and they said it takes about a month for a new tank, and bring it in to the falls church store where their ducati tech was working. Im going wednesday to hopefully have this resolved. Will post results wednesday night. they also said if i didnt want to leave my bike there, id have to put a deposit down on the tank which was in the 1800$ range.

wait... what???  they said you have to leave your bike there for a month???  WTF?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducpainter on October 11, 2010, 04:47:43 PM
wait... what???  they said you have to leave your bike there for a month???  WTF?
a deposit on a warranty part?

Isn't that completely illegal?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on October 11, 2010, 04:50:10 PM
a deposit on a warranty part?

Isn't that completely illegal?

I don't know if it's illegal, but it's definitely unwarranted.  They have your VIN, seems DNA would just disapprove another warranty claim if you stiff a dealer.

I just keep hearing garbage like this, and it really pisses me off.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: herm on October 11, 2010, 05:35:29 PM
and......how could you "stiff" a dealer on a warranty part in the first place?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducpainter on October 11, 2010, 05:37:41 PM
and......how could you "stiff" a dealer on a warranty part in the first place?
Ducati bills the dealer for the part and then the dealer bills Ducati for the claim.

If the customer doesn't come to have the work done the dealer gets 'stiffed' or stuck with the part.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: mjk778 on October 11, 2010, 06:23:45 PM
Placing a deposit for warranty parts or having to leave your bike for any amount of time is ridiculous.  I would contact DNA and make them aware....

I guess it really comes down to the dealer you go to.  I stopped by on a Saturday, they snapped 4 pics, took the VIN and I was approved in a week.  They said about a week to get the new tank in, and about two weeks to send out to get coated. 

I think some dealers for whatever reason just don't want to do this work.  Last year I was told my tank had to be leaking to even have it looked at by them.



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on October 11, 2010, 06:37:36 PM
Update

http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=25074.0 (http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=25074.0)

Update #4  11-Oct-2010

If you have been told by a dealer any of the following, PLEASE PM ME with your contact info, i.e. name, email, phone #, and the dealer you dealt with.  I will be taking this directly to a meeting with my contacts at Ducati.

  • You have to have a leaking tank before we will replace it.
  • You have to leave a deposit to get your replacement tank
  • You have to leave your bike with us until the new tank comes in
  • Ducati isn't replacing tanks merely for expansion
  • Your bike is out of warranty, no replacement

etc

Also, if you have sold your bike due to the tank issue, please contact me as above.

Thanks

Izaak


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Kurt V on October 13, 2010, 05:33:01 AM
Well it has now been over 3 weeks and I still don't have a replacement tank. Dealer yesterday told me it is on back order from Italy with no estimated date of arrival. Guess it is up to me to see if I can make it happen.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on October 13, 2010, 08:06:13 AM
Well it has now been over 3 weeks and I still don't have a replacement tank. Dealer yesterday told me it is on back order from Italy with no estimated date of arrival. Guess it is up to me to see if I can make it happen.

Mine took 5 months.

Don't expect quick service on this, you are in a big line of people probably, esp for the popular colors.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: DeuceNYC on October 13, 2010, 08:26:42 AM
The EPA is running with a proposal to increase the allowable percentage of ethanol in gasoline from 10% to 15%. I hope DNA finds a workable solution soon because it seems the problem will only get worse.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Veloce-Fino on October 13, 2010, 08:30:52 AM
The EPA

This is the problem right here.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducpainter on October 13, 2010, 08:32:12 AM
This is the problem right here.

let's not go there....


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on October 13, 2010, 08:33:22 AM
The EPA is running with a proposal to increase the allowable percentage of ethanol in gasoline from 10% to 15%. I hope DNA finds a workable solution soon because it seems the problem will only get worse.

the only option is for EVERYONE to write the EPA and complain about it OR to ask them to mandate that pumps have to offer Ethanol-free gas as well.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: duccarlos on October 13, 2010, 08:39:18 AM
Would this cause the issue to be worse than what it already is? I would assume that unless it increases by like 50%, it would still cause the issue at probably similar rate.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on October 13, 2010, 08:44:55 AM
Would this cause the issue to be worse than what it already is? I would assume that unless it increases by like 50%, it would still cause the issue at probably similar rate.

Absolutely.  It would accelerate the expansion.  Ethanol absorbs water at a certain rate (pure gasoline does as well, but the rate is around 1/1000th that of ethanol).

Increasing the ethanol dilution by 50% means there is 50% more water in the mixture.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: DeuceNYC on October 13, 2010, 08:46:27 AM
Would this cause the issue to be worse than what it already is? I would assume that unless it increases by like 50%, it would still cause the issue at probably similar rate.

I don't think anyone knows for certain, but a 50% increase is pretty significant. Not to mention ethanol produces fewer BTUs per gallon than gasoline so you'll also be looking at poorer fuel economy.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on October 13, 2010, 08:51:47 AM
We need a separate ethanol thread...


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: duccarlos on October 13, 2010, 08:56:46 AM
Agreed, yuu already started it. Guys, before everyone freaks out, they are increasing it by 5%. This means 5% more water absorbtion, which is technically 50% of the current level, so yeah I see your point.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on October 13, 2010, 09:13:31 AM
Agreed, yuu already started it. Guys, before everyone freaks out, they are increasing it by 5%. This means 50% more water absorbtion, which is technically 50% of the current level, so yeah I see your point.

corrected

10 ml of ethanol absorbs water at a rate of X per minute at Y degrees and Z% humidity.

15 ml will absorb 50% more by volume with X Y and Z remaining constant.

Increase the temperature and/or humidity and the absorption rate increases.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Kurt V on October 13, 2010, 09:58:01 AM
Mine took 5 months.
Don't expect quick service on this, you are in a big line of people probably, esp for the popular colors.

That really is unacceptable. If that is the case, once it is fixed I will be selling it. I love the 696 Monster, but if that is the way Ducati wants to treat their customers, then I will vote with my feet.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on October 13, 2010, 10:08:47 AM
That really is unacceptable. If that is the case, once it is fixed I will be selling it. I love the 696 Monster, but if that is the way Ducati wants to treat their customers, then I will vote with my feet.

In my case, I have the '05 S2R Acid Yellow, which was the only year and model offered in that color, so I assume it was the rarity.  As far as other delays, bear in mind there are a LOT of people making these claims now and someone actually has to look at the photos when they send them in. 

Currently (I'm told by DNA that) dealers are communicating >directly< with Bologna with a new system they've put into place.  I think that may speed things up, but it seems to me that DNA should have the say-so anyhow since they are the warrantor, not Bologna. 

5 months is the longest I've heard, most are around a month.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: duccarlos on October 13, 2010, 11:36:01 AM
Mine was less than 2 weeks. I think DNA has been doing a fantastic job turning these around.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: CDawg on October 13, 2010, 11:36:30 AM
The EPA is running with a proposal to increase the allowable percentage of ethanol in gasoline from 10% to 15%. I hope DNA finds a workable solution soon because it seems the problem will only get worse.

Awesome... [roll]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Meerkat on October 14, 2010, 02:41:07 PM
Filed my NHTSA ODI complaint today.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Razgriz on October 14, 2010, 10:23:19 PM
Just reporting in.
2006 Sport 1000, had original tank replaced on July, 2009 due to slight expansion.
Now October, 2010 the replaced tank has bubbles and severe expansion on the right side, like freaking 2 inches.
The dealer will only shim the tank and see if it'll expand any further before DNA will even attempt to replace it...  


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: mikimiki on October 14, 2010, 11:45:18 PM
Hello, guys.  Sorry to jump in but I need your opinion.
Has anyone replaced tank with Beverly Hills Ducati?

Two months ago, I requested them to file warranty claim for inflating plastic tank of my 2006 Monster Dark 620.
(I did not purchase my bike from them but they are the nearest dealer.)
When I first called them, it seemed like they were aware of the issue; they just asked me to send some photos and info (VIN, mileage, etc.).
They told me that I don't even have to show them my bike, so I kind of expected to receive positive answer quickly.
But since then, I don't even have an answer if my warranty request is approved or not.

The dealer kept saying that they were also waiting for an answer, so two days ago I finally decided to call DNA.
(Actually, I e-mailed DNA before but never got any reply.)
After several attempts (they are usually busy and put me in voicemail), luckily got answered. 
DNA checked my warranty request in their database, but they did not find my record...  i.e. I waited for two months for nothing...
The guy told me that he would check with the dealer and call me back.  Never called me back so far...

What should I do next?  Should I go to another dealer and start all over again?
If anyone had experience with this dealer, or some others in So-Cal, please let me know. 
Any suggestion is appreciated.  Thanks!


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: howie on October 15, 2010, 03:14:22 AM
I would go back to your dealer and tell them you called DNA to find out the status on your tank and they could not find the claim.  Nicely ask them to file again. 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on October 15, 2010, 04:12:15 AM
Just reporting in.
2006 Sport 1000, had original tank replaced on July, 2009 due to slight expansion.
Now October, 2010 the replaced tank has bubbles and severe expansion on the right side, like freaking 2 inches.
The dealer will only shim the tank and see if it'll expand any further before DNA will even attempt to replace it...  

Ducati issued a service bulletin which says to do this (shim the tank on SC models).  Apparently, they think some tanks only expand to a certain point and then stop or shrink back.  I don't think it will solve anything.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: mikimiki on October 15, 2010, 10:37:10 PM
Thank you, howie.  I will try a little more with this dealer.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Greg on October 17, 2010, 09:46:54 AM
Just got a call back from the dealer and they said I have been approved, they will call me again once my tank comes in.  [thumbsup]

Tank finally came in :) Woohoo, everything fts nice again  [thumbsup]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on October 18, 2010, 06:58:35 PM
I have some good and bad news regarding Caswell coating inside the tank.

I don't have the exact details yet, I expect to get them soon.  The good news is that the coating works, adheres and prevents moisture from getting into the material.  I don't have the details on their testing, but apparently it did the job fine.

The bad news is that the coating somehow changes the "profile" of the tank so that it does not meet homologation requirements.

This means that Ducati will not be using Caswell to prevent tank expansion, however, it does give some very good news for those who've gotten their tanks coated.  

I don't know how much detail I will get later.  I don't have any official test results or anything, only that Ducati did test the coating from Caswell and a) it works and b) it changes the tank so that it doesn't meet homologation requirements.  

"b)" doesn't mean anything to an owner, but it means a lot to the manufacturer, but "a)" means a lot for those of you thinking of doing the coating.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: duccarlos on October 19, 2010, 05:54:28 AM
So let me understand, Ducati actually tested the coating on their end and found that it solved the issue, but because of the homologation requirements (EPA?) they are not allowed to coat the tanks directly. Now, does this mean that dealers are not allowed to offer the coating on their end?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on October 19, 2010, 06:37:23 AM
So let me understand, Ducati actually tested the coating on their end and found that it solved the issue, but because of the homologation requirements (EPA?) they are not allowed to coat the tanks directly. Now, does this mean that dealers are not allowed to offer the coating on their end?

First off, I don't know that it's an EPA issue.  There are a lot of other homologation issues which come to bear, and AFAIK, the tank has to be homologated for every market Ducati is in.

Secondly, a dealer can do any work for you that you are willing to pay for:  overbore pistons, stroked crank, straight pipes, remove your lights, etc etc.  They don't have to stick to the factory configuration, and when you sign the work order, it will usually say something to that effect (that this modification may make your bike not street legal, etc).

I don't know of any issue that would make YOU or a DEALER coating the tank a problem.  I am having trouble figuring out what may come into play to prevent Ducati from using Caswell (it may just be the Caswell product, they might be using another coating for all I know).  NHTSA, DOT, EPA all come into play when a vehicle is put on the road in the USA, however, like I said, Ducati puts the same tank on bikes in every country so there may be some EU.  To my knowledge, Japan and Oz follow EU for emissions.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: csp808 on October 19, 2010, 05:11:32 PM
So any idea what their plan is? I'm sure eventually they will have to stop replacing tanks out of financial necessity and the fact you cant warranty a tank for life. I've heard the new style tanks <non nylon> are having the same issue. If this is fact it only makes sense to revert to a steel tank.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on October 19, 2010, 05:23:26 PM
So any idea what their plan is? I'm sure eventually they will have to stop replacing tanks out of financial necessity and the fact you cant warranty a tank for life. I've heard the new style tanks <non nylon> are having the same issue. If this is fact it only makes sense to revert to a steel tank.

i can't comment on any of that, i have no idea.

although, i seriously doubt they will ever go back to steel tanks on the mass market bikes.  the plastic is just too inexpensive, too easy to make, and eliminates the dent problem. 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: csp808 on October 20, 2010, 02:25:29 AM
I see your point but if every new bike off the line has this problem that's not profitable from a warranty standpoint. Nor is it profitable to gain a reputation for manufacturing a product that has a defective major component. So With new models i wonder if Ducati will submit a coated tank for "homologation" approval prior to emissions certification or whatever approval they need. Ive also thought they could use an internal flexible bladder like a F1 style tank. It would add a degree of safety but would require a re engineered evaporative emissions system. Anyhow I'm sure their not giving up on the problem but i  can only sit here and guess what their game plan is [coffee]


Title: Re: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: Heath on October 20, 2010, 10:17:57 AM
i can't comment on any of that, i have no idea.

although, i seriously doubt they will ever go back to steel tanks on the mass market bikes.  the plastic is just too inexpensive, too easy to make, and eliminates the dent problem. 
Maybe I do not know how big the dent problem was but for me I think of it as.
Steel tank: If I crash I get a dent.. well ya
Plastic tank: If I use gas I get a miss shaped tank..  I'm screwed

hmm


Title: Re: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: ducatiz on October 20, 2010, 10:22:27 AM
Maybe I do not know how big the dent problem was but for me I think of it as.
Steel tank: If I crash I get a dent.. well ya
Plastic tank: If I use gas I get a miss shaped tank..  I'm screwed

hmm

yeah, i know.  but they won't go back to a steel tank, i'd bet on that.  however, plastic can be made waterproof.  I'd rather they went to a bladder design anyhow, or a 2-wall design, but there are more things going on than i'm aware of.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign up list and discussion.
Post by: WetDuc on October 20, 2010, 11:42:00 AM
A 2 wall design seems like a good idea.
I had the tank replaced on my 695, and my S2R tank is on the way.  Both warranty claims done through Florida Motorsports in Tallahassee, FL.  It took forever to get both claims finally approved...it seemed each time the claim was filed, there was a picture/description issue on the part of the dealer causing it to bounce back.
All in all, myself, like most people, just want to ride and not worry about problems we "bought" ourselves into by choosing a Ducati. 
I appreciate your efforts, ducatiz.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Sign Up Important Info (UPDATED 11-Oct-10, see #1 post)
Post by: idsteve on October 20, 2010, 02:44:47 PM
Just got an approval from DNA through Cliffs and the tank is on order. Not sure how long a tricolore tank will take but its in the works and approved. This after failed attempts at the ah, er, um, yah, that place in Manhattan...  [clap]
cheers


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: mikimiki on October 21, 2010, 08:59:33 PM
I tried to call DNA many times but never got answered.  But when I called the dealer (BH Ducati) I found that DNA followed up my request.  The dealer told me that DNA called them and instructed to re-submit the claim.  Finally I got approved today after one week [clap]  Now, hope to get a tank soon...


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on October 22, 2010, 04:11:52 AM
I tried to call DNA many times but never got answered.  But when I called the dealer (BH Ducati) I found that DNA followed up my request.  The dealer told me that DNA called them and instructed to re-submit the claim.  Finally I got approved today after one week [clap]  Now, hope to get a tank soon...

That's a good story, thanks for the followup.  I am happy to hear they are being proactive.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: wantingaduc on October 22, 2010, 05:24:08 AM
Does anyone know if there's any truth to the info that given time, once the fuel is removed from the tank and it is allowed to dry out, that it will return to it's original size?

I've had my tank replaced once before and I dont want to do it again.
I would be happy to coat my current tank if it will in fact go back to it's normal size if I allow it to dry.

Any feedback on this would be greatly appreciated.

jimi


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: billruiz on October 22, 2010, 05:25:24 AM
I didn't know there was a "bulge-o-meter" criteria. My TriColore tank has expanded, but can still sit on the frame with no problem. I've had to elongate the holes in the mounting bracket so I can secure the tank with the clip up front. I'm attending an Open House at a Duc dealer on Sunday. Maybe I can get a parts guy to make a quick determination.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on October 22, 2010, 06:04:54 AM
I didn't know there was a "bulge-o-meter" criteria. My TriColore tank has expanded, but can still sit on the frame with no problem. I've had to elongate the holes in the mounting bracket so I can secure the tank with the clip up front. I'm attending an Open House at a Duc dealer on Sunday. Maybe I can get a parts guy to make a quick determination.

Your tank needs to be replaced.

It should not need to be moved back in the frame to prevent it from pushing on the keyswitch.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: lawbreaker on October 22, 2010, 06:11:59 AM
Now replacing my SECOND tank..... so this is tank #3 so far during the life of my S2R1000...


Took about two and a half weeks to get the tank which is suprizing [thumbsup]


Now looking for a metal alternative... [beer]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: IamSMC on October 22, 2010, 08:49:19 AM
Now replacing my SECOND tank..... so this is tank #3 so far during the life of my S2R1000...


Took about two and a half weeks to get the tank which is suprizing [thumbsup]


Now looking for a metal alternative... [beer]

Again, I'm still amazed how some can even get a 3rd tank when I having such a hard time getting my first warranty replacement and the hard time is even with the dealer that the first owner purchased the bike from.


In addition to the "it has to be leaking requirement", the dealer said since my tank has nicks from the handlebars, a warranty claim definitely won't go through.

Just wish the alternate dealer wasn't so far off...


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Bill in OKC on October 22, 2010, 08:53:45 AM
I would think that after a second tank, you could ask for a metal tank replacement and all the bits to make it work.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: booger on October 22, 2010, 09:43:11 AM
I'm having to replace a tank twice as well, first time I paid. Ducpond had a look at my original tank and the current one, haven't heard back from them but hopefully I'll get approved. First one was a fire hazard it leaked so bad.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: howie on October 22, 2010, 11:37:54 AM
Does anyone know if there's any truth to the info that given time, once the fuel is removed from the tank and it is allowed to dry out, that it will return to it's original size?

I've had my tank replaced once before and I dont want to do it again.
I would be happy to coat my current tank if it will in fact go back to it's normal size if I allow it to dry.

Any feedback on this would be greatly appreciated.

jimi

Replace "will" with "may".


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on October 22, 2010, 12:07:17 PM
Howie is right.  It may shrink back.  However, even if it shrinks there may be moisture trapped in the wall of the tank.  I have seen tanks which shrank but had soft spots.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: lawbreaker on October 22, 2010, 03:58:27 PM
I would think that after a second tank, you could ask for a metal tank replacement and all the bits to make it work.

AFAIK Ducati does NOT make a metal tank anymore..... I believe i need to find a 05 S4 tank ( someone chime in here) or something comparable.

So far, my local dealer ( who DOES NOT DO MY SERVICE BTW) is really kewl regarding the tank issue...


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducpainter on October 22, 2010, 04:04:20 PM
http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=541.msg3666#msg3666 (http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=541.msg3666#msg3666)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: csp808 on October 23, 2010, 01:26:38 PM
AFAIK Ducati does NOT make a metal tank anymore..... I believe i need to find a 05 S4 tank ( someone chime in here) or something comparable.

So far, my local dealer ( who DOES NOT DO MY SERVICE BTW) is really kewl regarding the tank issue...
i believe they do the first tank that came in for my bike was a metal one by mistake


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: poseur on October 24, 2010, 08:27:33 AM
What about using Sea Foam?
(http://www.seafoamsales.com/images/stories/products/thumbnails/thumb_sf-lg-motortreatment_product.jpg)

"Fuel can absorb moisture from the atmosphere - even more so with the addition of ethanol.  Crank case oil can also become easily contaminated with moisture.  Sea Foam fully encapsulates the water molecules in the fuel and oil to prevent phase separation - rendering the absorbed moisture harmless."

Why Sea Foam Motor Treatment Works (http://www.seafoamsales.com/why-sea-foam-motor-treatment-works.html)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on October 24, 2010, 09:26:26 AM
What about using Sea Foam?
(http://www.seafoamsales.com/images/stories/products/thumbnails/thumb_sf-lg-motortreatment_product.jpg)

"Fuel can absorb moisture from the atmosphere - even more so with the addition of ethanol.  Crank case oil can also become easily contaminated with moisture.  Sea Foam fully encapsulates the water molecules in the fuel and oil to prevent phase separation - rendering the absorbed moisture harmless."

Why Sea Foam Motor Treatment Works (http://www.seafoamsales.com/why-sea-foam-motor-treatment-works.html)

Sea Foam uses a type of alcohol to absorb moisture.  Which is why it cleans your system out so well -- ethanol as an additive also works to clean your injectors...


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: mjk778 on October 24, 2010, 09:46:17 AM
Exactly 2 weeks from the day that DNA approved my new tank (which took a week after the dealer took pics and sent to DNA) my new tank has arrived.  Will be getting Caswells this week.  Special thanks to Rockwell cycles for getting this done and Ducatiz and other forum members for all the info and procedure to get this replaced.  If i would have listened to the first dealer I went to 1 1/2 years go I'd still be cringing looking at my deformed tank.

Thanks

Mike


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: arai_speed on October 30, 2010, 08:38:16 AM
My second tank has now expanded exponentially.  What started as a small ripple has now expanded to lots of ripples on both sides of the tank (where my knees rest while riding) and has expanded forward to where I can barely remove the front latch.

I'm reluctant to submit for a 2nd tank if the same shit is gonna happen again.  >:(


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: twolanefun on November 04, 2010, 02:54:33 AM
It took a year, but I have a new tank, 10/1/10, black with white stripe, on my S2R. It is coated differently than previous tanks, no cost to me. I encourage you to support the AMA efforts to stop the E15 initiative that the corn lobby is pushing for, write the EPA, your legislators. BTW this problem is not just a Ducati problem, other brands are seeing the same thing, it's on the XR forum for example. Until the OEMs get this figured out we do not need more ethanol at the pumps and I'm told it can cause problems with FI, Carbs. I refuse to but a new Ducati until they figure this out. - Gene


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: DEVO! on November 05, 2010, 10:25:43 AM
Called Pro Italia they said bring it in they will take some pictures


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: arai_speed on November 05, 2010, 10:46:00 AM
I called PI - it seems they are now offering to coat the replaced tanks for $250 using the Caswell product.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Massinova on November 08, 2010, 07:07:53 PM
I called PI - it seems they are now offering to coat the replaced tanks for $250 using the Caswell product.

Speaking of Caswell, I found this DIY:

http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=616792 (http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=616792)



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiboy on November 08, 2010, 07:18:37 PM
Sorry but I am not reading the whole thread and I have a couple questions.

I just got my 2008 S2R1000, bought it used with less than 500 miles.

It appears the tank has expanded on the frame (rubber bumpers don't line up) and it has a rub on the key guard.

If I bring it to a Ducati Dealer, even if they did not originally sell the bike, will Ducati give me a new tank?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: mjk778 on November 08, 2010, 07:29:34 PM
Sorry but I am not reading the whole thread and I have a couple questions.

I just got my 2008 S2R1000, bought it used with less than 500 miles.

It appears the tank has expanded on the frame (rubber bumpers don't line up) and it has a rub on the key guard.

If I bring it to a Ducati Dealer, even if they did not originally sell the bike, will Ducati give me a new tank?

Yes they will.  I had the same situation and got mine replaced.
Goodluck!!!


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: eyduc on November 08, 2010, 07:37:27 PM
I just got word that my tank replacement was approved!   That was fast!  I only bought the bike a week ago, read the the thread and contacted the local dealer.  The new tank is now on order.  Does this issue happen to all tanks or close to it?  Will I have the same issue with the new tank?  I'm reluctant to use it. I may store it and just find a steel tank.  From what I've read, I need an 02-04 S4 tank and swap my pump.  I'll need the new rear bracket too.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Kurt V on November 09, 2010, 07:51:26 AM
Update on my 696 tank. On Monday I get this email from DNA. I am posting the message in full for anyone that wants to use the phone numbers or email address. So 8 weeks after my bike goes in they finally respond to my email requests for help. Just called the dealer who tells me the tank is on my bike and ready to go. Keep in mind they didn't call me, I had to call them.

John Berntsen
 to me
   
show details 11:47 AM (21 hours ago)
   
   from   John Berntsen <John.Berntsen@ducati.com>
to   "kvalent118
date   Mon, Nov 8, 2010 at 11:47 AM
subject   Your Monster 696 Fuel Tank
mailed-by   ducati.com
   
hide details 11:47 AM (21 hours ago)
Dear Kurt,
Thank you for contacting Ducati North America.
We apologize for the delay in responding to you and for the concerns that you have with your Monster 696 fuel tank. We have worked diligently to get your tank expedited. In tracking the order that your fuel tank was a part of, we have learned that the parts order was delivered to Jones Powersports on Friday, November 5th, 2010. We encourage you to contact the dealership to schedule an appointment for installation. We sincerely apologize for any inconvenience.

Regards,
John Berntsen

Technical Representative - Customer Service
Ducati North America

10443 Bandley Drive
Cupertino, CA 95014

Tel. 408 343 4431

Fax. 408 716 2696

john.berntsen@ducati.com
www.ducatiusa.com (http://) (http://)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiboy on November 09, 2010, 05:34:29 PM
Called my local dealer today (Ducati Vermont) and was told I would have to leave the bike with them for "awhile".

Has anyone had this issue?   Why would they need it for "awhile"?

   I figured I could get it inspected same day and get a tank on order.   Riding season is coming to a close and I haven't put 50 miles on this thing.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducpainter on November 09, 2010, 05:37:28 PM
Called my local dealer today (Ducati Vermont) and was told I would have to leave the bike with them for "awhile".

Has anyone had this issue?   Why would they need it for "awhile"?

   I figured I could get it inspected same day and get a tank on order.   Riding season is coming to a close and I haven't put 50 miles on this thing.
They should be able to take photos and the vin and get the process underway.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: booger on November 09, 2010, 05:45:02 PM
Called my local dealer today (Ducati Vermont) and was told I would have to leave the bike with them for "awhile".

Has anyone had this issue?   Why would they need it for "awhile"?

   I figured I could get it inspected same day and get a tank on order.   Riding season is coming to a close and I haven't put 50 miles on this thing.

Probably some kid who doesn't know what he's talking about. You need the service manager. If the service manager is telling you this, you need to move to NY, NH, or MA. It's pretty well established that all the dealer does is take photos and fill out a form to initiate the process. Geez do all US Ducati dealers have their heads up their asses? You know what I could be a Ducati dealer with my revolutionary new concept of CUSTOMER SERVICE UBER ALLES. Make myself a fortune.
Load that sucker up ina pickemup truck and take it to a dealer who doesn't have his head wedged inside his rectum.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: superjohn on November 10, 2010, 09:26:05 AM
Called my local dealer today (Ducati Vermont) and was told I would have to leave the bike with them for "awhile".

Has anyone had this issue?   Why would they need it for "awhile"?

   I figured I could get it inspected same day and get a tank on order.   Riding season is coming to a close and I haven't put 50 miles on this thing.

I rode mine in and waited for them to finish with it after they got the tank from Ducati. Took all of an hour and a half for the tank replacement. They got everything they needed from me on the previous visit and didn't require the bike stay there. Heck, they even got the tank within a week of ordering it.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on November 10, 2010, 09:34:54 AM
I rode mine in and waited for them to finish with it after they got the tank from Ducati. Took all of an hour and a half for the tank replacement. They got everything they needed from me on the previous visit and didn't require the bike stay there. Heck, they even got the tank within a week of ordering it.

Where/who?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: superjohn on November 10, 2010, 09:55:11 AM
Where/who?

Barnett's Suzuki/Ducati in Raleigh, NC. Some people have reported spotty service, but I never have anything too bad to warrant a complaint. The caveat there is that they forgot to file the claim, and I never followed up so I had to call and remind them to get it, but that was just as much my fault for not following up.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on November 10, 2010, 10:04:48 AM
Good to know.

I think it's helpful for people to post up the names of shops that are doing right and wrong on this issue.

Everyone should get the same deal:  bring your bike in (or send pics with the VIN info), tank ordered, bike brought in after tank arrives and swapped (and info verified if emailed).  That should be the long & short of it.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: mjk778 on November 10, 2010, 05:41:36 PM
If your in the NY area Rockwell in Fort Mongomery has great service.  My tank arrived roughly two weeks from getting my pics taken. 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Meerkat on November 11, 2010, 11:59:53 AM
Talked to Ben at Coleman's Fairfax today. Whatever DNA yelled at them seems to have worked. My tank is approved for replacement and is being ordered. No deposit necessary and I don't have to leave the bike with them. They asked that I bring the bike in within 2 weeks of the tank arriving and leave it for 24 hrs.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on November 11, 2010, 12:00:53 PM
Talked to Ben at Coleman's Fairfax today. Whatever DNA yelled at them seems to have worked. My tank is approved for replacement and is being ordered. No deposit necessary and I don't have to leave the bike with them. They asked that I bring the bike in within 2 weeks of the tank arriving and leave it for 24 hrs.

that is much more reasonable.  good to know.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: swampduc on November 11, 2010, 05:51:26 PM
Transportation revolution in New Orleans got me a tank in a wk, before I even requested one   [laugh]
they noticed the deformation and took the initiative  [thumbsup]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: J.P. on November 13, 2010, 03:47:03 AM
FYI- New tank approval took a week, and 3 weeks to arrive for a gray one through Redline in VA. Haven't talked to them about coating it yet or trading it in for a Harley when it looks normal again.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: aaronb on November 13, 2010, 03:25:13 PM
look what popped up in a facebook banner ad...  anybody know anything about this?

http://www.girardgibbs.com/Ducati.asp (http://www.girardgibbs.com/Ducati.asp)



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: csp808 on November 13, 2010, 04:22:56 PM
Looks like someone trying to drum up some buisness perhaps?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on November 13, 2010, 04:42:55 PM
I am not going to comment on them directly except to say that they are just a law firm that has no interest in Ducati staying around or being solvent or anything.  If you look at the list of their successful lawsuits, they are very good at getting multi-million dollar judgments and settlements (ostensibly from damages).

I want to make this clear:  I am not planning to ask nor demand any damages from Ducati if a suit is filed.  If you sign on as a plaintiff with me, there is no money in it for you, except perhaps cover for simple expense such as showing up in court or a deposition.  All you're going to get out of it is a new, non-defective tank (when ducati makes them), a warranty on it, and the good warm feeling that you participated in getting something good done the right way.

That law firm spends plenty of time looking on forums for people pregnant doging about a manufacturer.  Then, they do a little research to determine if there is a colorable claim, and then they set up an "investigation" --the results of which are just you as a plaintiff suing some company and asking for millions in punitive damages.  

Of course, they don't ask you for any money.  Their lead plaintiffs get paid, sometimes as much as $50 grand, and they get a huge cut of the damages plus their fees paid.

I don't want anyone to impair their legal rights, but I am also trying to approach this with Ducati in a reasonable way.  Ducati has about 1100 employees worldwide, and sells under 40,000 bikes worldwide.  Compare that with their multiple lawsuits against Hyundai, a company with about 200,000 employees worldwide, about 15 different divisions (they make cars, trucks, heavy equipment, machine guns, boats, and so on) and God knows how much revenue.

Ducati make the beast with two backsed up.   They need to make the tanks right.  Do you think you deserve to be paid a few thousand on top of the tank?  More importantly, do you think >I< should be paid 500k - 1million for getting that done for you?   I'll happily take the cash under different circumstances, but Ducati isn't the right defendant for that.  


Ducatizzy, Esq.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: booger on November 13, 2010, 05:55:49 PM
Maybe you should go after Acerbis or the EPA or maybe the state of Iowa. I'm not inclined to blame Ducati for this. I feel sorry for them that they have to replace everyone's tanks now, must be costing them a bundle. So far I believe they have been doing the right thing. What needs to happen, if Acerbis refuses to reformulate the material the tanks are made from, is for Ducati to hire another plastic tank supplier who will make a tank that is dimensionally stable. Pretty simple really. That's probably the most realistic solution since ethanol ain't goin' away, neither is moisture in the air.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on November 13, 2010, 06:24:10 PM
Acerbis: you have no relationship on which to sue.
EPA, Iowa: sovereign immunity.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: herm on November 14, 2010, 03:59:49 PM
Well said ducatiz!

Please let me go on record with my thanks for your efforts on my behalf. I don't want any "damages", just a proper tank for my bike.

-herm


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiboy on November 14, 2010, 04:57:07 PM
Are you all keeping your expanded tanks?

I


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: xcaptainxbloodx on November 14, 2010, 05:05:48 PM
you cant. they get destroyed, part of the deal.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: arai_speed on November 14, 2010, 09:08:31 PM
So I stopped by Pro Italia this weekend.  The service desk was busy but one the techs was EXTREMELY helpful and kind and took pictures of the tank and filled out the proper paperwork.  While he was taking pictures the main service person yelled from behind his desk and said that "the tank MUST NOT be touching the frame" in order to submit a successful claim. I found this a bit odd as the front latch is practically impossible to remove and further more, the first tank that was replaced (by them) had no pictures taken an was approved in a week or so.

Needless to say they were going to submit the claim but both they and DNA were "backed up" so I wouldn't have a response on the tank being approved/denied for replacement until at least 3 to 4 weeks.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: sbrguy on November 14, 2010, 11:55:09 PM
has anyone inquried to a metal worker yet about making the newer monster tanks in metal at least the inner tank in metal to avoid the problems with the expanding tanK?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducpainter on November 15, 2010, 04:05:41 AM
has anyone inquried to a metal worker yet about making the newer monster tanks in metal at least the inner tank in metal to avoid the problems with the expanding tanK?
What do you mean by inner tank?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on November 15, 2010, 05:02:15 AM
Are you all keeping your expanded tanks?

I

you cant. they get destroyed, part of the deal.

the only exception is if you have some special edition tank or something signed (like the SC bikes that are signed by racers).. you need to call Ducati and ask them to do it.  The dealer will drill a hole in the tank on the bottom to make it useless.  BUT YOU HAVE TO ASK BEFORE YOU GET THE SWAP DONE.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: GAAN on November 15, 2010, 03:16:45 PM
Ducatiz has some competition

http://www.girardgibbs.com/Ducati.asp (http://www.girardgibbs.com/Ducati.asp)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Meerkat on November 15, 2010, 03:30:24 PM
Ducatiz has some competition

http://www.girardgibbs.com/Ducati.asp (http://www.girardgibbs.com/Ducati.asp)

Derby


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: GAAN on November 15, 2010, 03:32:09 PM
Derby

you can't call a Derby and not cite your source

 [roll]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducpainter on November 15, 2010, 03:33:15 PM
you can't call a Derby and not cite your source

 [roll]
read the damn thread you're in right now mom...

try to stay current will ya? [evil]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: GAAN on November 15, 2010, 03:45:17 PM
read the damn thread you're in right now mom...

try to stay current will ya? [evil]

oh no

that's not how it works

if he wants to Derby me for not running a search the least he can do is run a search to demonstrate his superiority

besides

any thread over 50 pages is exempt from the "staying current clause"

and

If it isnt in the last 10 pages then I say it's exempt from Derbying


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducpainter on November 15, 2010, 03:58:09 PM
oh no

that's not how it works

if he wants to Derby me for not running a search the least he can do is run a search to demonstrate his superiority

besides

any thread over 50 pages is exempt from the "staying current clause"

and

If it isnt in the last 10 pages then I say it's exempt from Derbying

don't make me go all dp on you mom... :-*

it on the previous page. ;D


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Spidey on November 15, 2010, 04:02:01 PM
I am not going to comment on them directly except to say that they are just a law firm that has no interest in Ducati staying around or being solvent or anything.  If you look at the list of their successful lawsuits, they are very good at getting multi-million dollar judgments and settlements (ostensibly from damages).

I want to make this clear:  I am not planning to ask nor demand any damages from Ducati if a suit is filed.  If you sign on as a plaintiff with me, there is no money in it for you, except perhaps cover for simple expense such as showing up in court or a deposition.  All you're going to get out of it is a new, non-defective tank (when ducati makes them), a warranty on it, and the good warm feeling that you participated in getting something good done the right way.

That law firm spends plenty of time looking on forums for people pregnant doging about a manufacturer.  Then, they do a little research to determine if there is a colorable claim, and then they set up an "investigation" --the results of which are just you as a plaintiff suing some company and asking for millions in punitive damages.  

Of course, they don't ask you for any money.  Their lead plaintiffs get paid, sometimes as much as $50 grand, and they get a huge cut of the damages plus their fees paid.

I don't want anyone to impair their legal rights, but I am also trying to approach this with Ducati in a reasonable way.  Ducati has about 1100 employees worldwide, and sells under 40,000 bikes worldwide.  Compare that with their multiple lawsuits against Hyundai, a company with about 200,000 employees worldwide, about 15 different divisions (they make cars, trucks, heavy equipment, machine guns, boats, and so on) and God knows how much revenue.

Ducati make the beast with two backsed up.   They need to make the tanks right.  Do you think you deserve to be paid a few thousand on top of the tank?  More importantly, do you think >I< should be paid 500k - 1million for getting that done for you?   I'll happily take the cash under different circumstances, but Ducati isn't the right defendant for that.  


Ducatizzy, Esq.


Those guys are SF-based.  PM'd you.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: GAAN on November 15, 2010, 04:08:32 PM
don't make me go all dp on you mom... :-*

it on the previous page. ;D

yeah well maybe but still over 50 pages...

Those guys are SF-based.  PM'd you.

see, now that is a proper Derby

damn kids these days just don't take the time to do things right anymore



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Spidey on November 15, 2010, 04:10:55 PM
see, now that is a proper Derby

Huh?  I'm confuzzled.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: GAAN on November 15, 2010, 04:13:48 PM
Huh?  I'm confuzzled.

Yeah, I'm sober too


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducpainter on November 15, 2010, 04:16:48 PM
yeah well maybe but still over 50 pages...

see, now that is a proper Derby

damn kids these days just don't take the time to do things right anymore


c u r r e n t...

cur·rent  (kûrnt, kr-)
adj.
1.
a. Belonging to the present time:


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: DrDesmo on November 15, 2010, 06:33:21 PM
Not to get off topic, but it would appear that the "other" firm has gotten quite aggressive with Google AdWords, do a search for "Ducati Fuel Tank" and you'll see what I mean ... 

Cheers,
Adam


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: corey on November 15, 2010, 07:47:44 PM
Not really going to be ANY opportunity to get a new tank if some schmuck sues Ducati into non-existence.
That's the last thing we need.

I understand there is some element of danger here with the tank expansion, but for pete's sake... it's still just a toy.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Bill in OKC on November 15, 2010, 08:10:12 PM
You would think that Acerbis would be aware of the problem by now wouldn't you?  I've been reading about the new Aprilia RSV4 and guess who makes the tank for it - Acerbis - and the 2010 RSV4 tanks are having the exact same problem as the nylon Ducati tanks.  I'm guessing a solution coming from Acerbis is not imminent.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: DRKWNG on November 16, 2010, 02:49:00 AM
Huh?  I'm confuzzled.

Yea, we could tell from your thong wearing, dirt bike riding antics...


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on November 16, 2010, 06:05:06 AM
You would think that Acerbis would be aware of the problem by now wouldn't you?  I've been reading about the new Aprilia RSV4 and guess who makes the tank for it - Acerbis - and the 2010 RSV4 tanks are having the exact same problem as the nylon Ducati tanks.  I'm guessing a solution coming from Acerbis is not imminent.

They are aware.  I know Ducati has been doing some testing and I can't imagine that Acerbis isn't doing it for them.  The best solution -- I believe -- would be a coating similar to the Caswell that doesn't present a problem for them.  Caswell works, but it affects their ability to homologate the tank for some reason.  Seems they could find another compatible coating or surface treatment that doesn't have the same issue..


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: dvyce on November 16, 2010, 06:40:59 AM
I have not read the entire thread so guys pls forgive me if what i am about to ask has already been asked.  Will this tank expansion issue affect all 696's?  Cuz as we speak, mine is inside a crate, inside a container on some ship being shipped across the Atlantic and will arrive mid January.  As for me, I have thrown the idea of seeing any type of dealer should this occur because we do not have any in Ghana.  The closest bike dealer we have is KTM and that in the country next door.  Anyway can someone please help me with my Q?  Thanks a ton


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducpainter on November 16, 2010, 06:44:00 AM
I have not read the entire thread so guys pls forgive me if what i am about to ask has already been asked.  Will this tank expansion issue affect all 696's?  Cuz as we speak, mine is inside a crate, inside a container on some ship being shipped across the Atlantic and will arrive mid January.  As for me, I have thrown the idea of seeing any type of dealer should this occur because we do not have any in Ghana.  The closest bike dealer we have is KTM and that in the country next door.  Anyway can someone please help me with my Q?  Thanks a ton
It seems to affect all plastic tanked bikes when exposed to ethanol fuel.

The actual tank on the 696 is under skins so the effects may not be noticed as quickly as the earlier models.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: sbrguy on November 16, 2010, 07:34:01 AM
Not really going to be ANY opportunity to get a new tank if some schmuck sues Ducati into non-existence.
That's the last thing we need.

I understand there is some element of danger here with the tank expansion, but for pete's sake... it's still just a toy.

unfortunately the company still sees the warranty route as an economically feasible solution otherwise they would have changed the plastic or what have you by now, but the cost benefit to them of waiting for a few people to try to return the tanks and such and after a 2 year stint its on you then, they are just hedging the numbers and figure that it will cost less to just do warranty repair as each tank is probably only really costing them maybe something like $10 dollars they are pressed out anyway.

if they get sued maybe they will then use differnt plastics and figure out the problem.

basically they have no reason to change the design as its not 100% of the tanks and so far nobody has been killed by the problem its really not that big of a liability.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on November 16, 2010, 07:44:13 AM
I have not read the entire thread so guys pls forgive me if what i am about to ask has already been asked.  Will this tank expansion issue affect all 696's?  Cuz as we speak, mine is inside a crate, inside a container on some ship being shipped across the Atlantic and will arrive mid January.  As for me, I have thrown the idea of seeing any type of dealer should this occur because we do not have any in Ghana.  The closest bike dealer we have is KTM and that in the country next door.  Anyway can someone please help me with my Q?  Thanks a ton

I have several 696 owners on my list.

If your local gasoline has more than 5% ethanol, then you should look into getting the tank coated.  There is a coating here called Caswell's which is (I believe) an epoxy based coating.  Testing and actual use has demonstrated it works, however Ducati can't use it for other reasons.

Doing the coating yourself is easy if you have any experience with tools and have the right ones handy.  Removing the tank isn't hard, you just have to take out the guts (filter, pump,etc) and remove all the metal and filler parts, then mask everything off.

One person I spoke to said coating the bottom of the tank is sufficient because the problem occurs at the bottom of the tank -- ethanol absorbs moisture and sinks.  Since the volume of water is going to be less than 2% the total volume of gasoline, it's a very small contact area where water comes in contract with the surface (and also the hottest area of the tank -- heat + moisture = fast absorption)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on November 16, 2010, 07:45:31 AM
unfortunately the company still sees the warranty route as an economically feasible solution otherwise they would have changed the plastic or what have you by now, but the cost benefit to them of waiting for a few people to try to return the tanks and such and after a 2 year stint its on you then, they are just hedging the numbers and figure that it will cost less to just do warranty repair as each tank is probably only really costing them maybe something like $10 dollars they are pressed out anyway.

I don't know for a fact, but my gut feeling is that they are looking for a solution.  I guess I'll find out soon enough.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: sbrguy on November 16, 2010, 07:47:28 AM
it seems like so far the only thing that would work 100% is going back to a metal tank.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on November 16, 2010, 07:57:19 AM
it seems like so far the only thing that would work 100% is going back to a metal tank.

Not possible.  They would have to have the entire bike recertified and re-homologated.  They can't/won't do it.

A coating is the most efficient and cheapest route.  They just have to find one that is compatible with their EPA/DOT/EU requirements.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: dark_duc on November 16, 2010, 11:32:49 AM
Good to know.

I think it's helpful for people to post up the names of shops that are doing right and wrong on this issue.

Everyone should get the same deal:  bring your bike in (or send pics with the VIN info), tank ordered, bike brought in after tank arrives and swapped (and info verified if emailed).  That should be the long & short of it.

Went to Hansen's BMW / Ducati / Triumph in Phoenix Oregon and had them look at my mildly deformed tank.  They said they hadn't heard any issues with the Monster's tanks, but they took some pics and contacted DNA.  They called me a couple days later to let me know that the claim was approved and a replacement tank was on they way.  Once arriving they said they would only need an hour with the bike to do the swap.  The crew at Hansen's made this a very easy process.   [beer]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: DrDesmo on November 16, 2010, 11:40:22 AM
This may be a derby (and likely is) ... but check out the epic thread on D.MS about this, YEOW

http://www.ducati.ms/forums/77-sport-classic/55155-tank-problems-yes-no.html (http://www.ducati.ms/forums/77-sport-classic/55155-tank-problems-yes-no.html)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: arai_speed on November 16, 2010, 11:58:39 AM
Quote
I signed up with the law firm and they contacted me within 24 hours to chat. They are trying to go after Ducati for breach of the warranty contract. Since Ducati is replacing bad tanks with bad tanks they aren't fulfilling their warranty obligations legally.

Unfortunately this seems to be the only way to a permanent fix.

From MS - I guess people are signing up for the class-action suit.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: herm on November 16, 2010, 12:12:15 PM
Went to Hansen's BMW / Ducati / Triumph in Phoenix Oregon and had them look at my mildly deformed tank.  They said they hadn't heard any issues with the Monster's tanks, but they took some pics and contacted DNA.  They called me a couple days later to let me know that the claim was approved and a replacement tank was on they way.  Once arriving they said they would only need an hour with the bike to do the swap.  The crew at Hansen's made this a very easy process.   [beer]

good for them! i bought both my monsters from Mason.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: DrDesmo on November 16, 2010, 12:33:51 PM
From MS - I guess people are signing up for the class-action suit.

Translation: People are signing up to help make attorneys a boatload of money under the guise of altruism.

Cheers,
Adam


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: arai_speed on November 16, 2010, 01:42:45 PM
Translation: People are signing up to help make attorneys a boatload of money under the guise of altruism.

Cheers,
Adam


Well - playing devils advocate what ELSE is being done? Aside from the replacement of bad tanks with other bad tanks?   

I went in for my 2nd tank this past weekend - my local dealer is now offering to coat the tanks for $250.

I hate to be cynical, but my options are
1) pay dealer to fix a problem the factory can't fix
2) don't do anything and have the problem repeat itself
3) DIY the coating of the tank - i.e. pay to fix a problem the factory can't fix


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on November 16, 2010, 03:20:35 PM
From MS - I guess people are signing up for the class-action suit.

correction:  they are signing up for Girard-Gibbs' class action suit.  the suit that I may be filing will not be the same, and won't be related at all.

Translation: People are signing up to help make attorneys a boatload of money under the guise of altruism.

Cheers,
Adam

I hope you're not including me in this.  I'm doing this for no punitive damages and expenses only.  Make ducati fix the problem and cover the expenses of the suit, that's it.  i've spent over 200 hours on this and if they fixed the problem today, i'd be fine with it.  that's 200 hours i could have spent working for clients.



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: arai_speed on November 16, 2010, 03:43:43 PM
correction:  they are signing up for Girard-Gibbs' class action suit.  the suit that I may be filing will not be the same, and won't be related at all.


No need for correction. Let's call it "clarification"  :)

You haven't filed a suit so my reference was for the Girard-Gibbs suit. 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: csp808 on November 16, 2010, 03:53:52 PM
correction:  they are signing up for Girard-Gibbs' class action suit.  the suit that I may be filing will not be the same, and won't be related at all.

I hope you're not including me in this.  I'm doing this for no punitive damages and expenses only.  Make ducati fix the problem and cover the expenses of the suit, that's it.  i've spent over 200 hours on this and if they fixed the problem today, i'd be fine with it.  that's 200 hours i could have spent working for clients.


I think i speak for most of us when i say you've been a class act. I'm greatly appreciative of your efforts and feel better knowing there are guys like you out there in the legal field that are real life down to earth good dudes that try to do the right thing.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducpainter on November 16, 2010, 04:03:57 PM
I think i speak for most of us when i say you've been a class act. I'm greatly appreciative of your efforts and feel better knowing there are guys like you out there in the legal field that are real life down to earth good dudes that try to do the right thing.
wait...

you must have 'tizz confused with a human. :P

I kid...he's been working his ass off trying to resolve this with everyone's interest, besides his own, in mind.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: mjk778 on November 16, 2010, 04:40:21 PM
+1 [thumbsup]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: sbrguy on November 16, 2010, 04:47:07 PM
its unfortunate that the plastic tanks are not working as is,but after seeing the problem on some tanks for a few years now you woul dthink that at least the new bikes coming forward now they would possibly use all new metal tanks. 
yes they would be more expensive whihc you then pass on to the consumer but hte monsters all use the same tanks, the 848 and 1198 and streetfighters all appear to be the same tank, and the hypers are thier own.

in other words it would be good if ducati just thought ahead and went bakc to the metal tanks, but like you said the best economically is a coating that may or may not work long term.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: DrDesmo on November 16, 2010, 09:49:02 PM
correction:  they are signing up for Girard-Gibbs' class action suit.  the suit that I may be filing will not be the same, and won't be related at all.

I hope you're not including me in this.  I'm doing this for no punitive damages and expenses only.  Make ducati fix the problem and cover the expenses of the suit, that's it.  i've spent over 200 hours on this and if they fixed the problem today, i'd be fine with it.  that's 200 hours i could have spent working for clients.



Not even a little bit, my comment was directed towards the guys purchasing facebook ads and google adwords in an attempt to drum up business and line their pockets.  You are the other end of the spectrum - keep it up  [thumbsup] [thumbsup] [thumbsup]

Cheers,
Adam

Girard-Gibbs is stereotype lawyer in all the wrong way.

'Tizz has been working his ass off on this as an enthusiast and I haven't been doing shit since I got him a contact with DNA to see if he could work it out prior to filing.

Too bad DNA and Ducati-sPa can't see that.



+1,000,000


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: xcaptainxbloodx on November 16, 2010, 11:05:42 PM
2 things;

1) DNA is basically powerless against the mother company. for whatever reason we arent considered a very important market and the fact that were having problems ( for some ridiculous reason) doesn't concern the mother company that much.

2) Ducati has proven to correct the problem when confronted with it, if anyone is having problems getting new tanks for bonifide tank swelling then thats the dealers problem.  And unless someone can prove damages beyond the tank (swollen tank causes an accident, leaks fuel and destroys something/causes fire etc)  I cant see how any class action suit is going to get additional money for something that the company has tried to correct in good faith. but hey, im no lawyer.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: DRKWNG on November 17, 2010, 02:53:01 AM
And unless someone can prove damages beyond the tank (swollen tank causes an accident, leaks fuel and destroys something/causes fire etc)  I cant see how any class action suit is going to get additional money for something that the company has tried to correct in good faith. but hey, im no lawyer.

And there lies the beauty of what 'Tiz is doing.  He isn't going after punitive damages or any of that crap.  He is just trying to get Ducati to come up with, and implement, a viable, permanent solution. 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Kurt V on November 17, 2010, 11:18:15 AM
Went to Hansen's BMW / Ducati / Triumph in Phoenix Oregon and had them look at my mildly deformed tank.  They said they hadn't heard any issues with the Monster's tanks, but they took some pics and contacted DNA.  They called me a couple days later to let me know that the claim was approved and a replacement tank was on they way.  Once arriving they said they would only need an hour with the bike to do the swap.  The crew at Hansen's made this a very easy process.   [beer]

My 696 tank warped and started leaking at the fuel pump fitting last August. Dealer approved the new tank under warranty immediately. What they don't tell you about is the back order on the tank. Took 2 friggin months for Ducati to ship a new tank. Wiped out my fall riding season. :'(


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Bill in OKC on November 17, 2010, 01:12:51 PM
Just for sh$%s and giggles, I googled "nylon gasoline leak" and variants using fuel, gas etc. and came up with a lot of hits on automotive sites.  I *think* this might be a more widespread problem than just Ducati tanks...  lots of mysterious leaks in fuel pumps and fuel rail fittings involving nylon bits (at least the threads say they are nylon) - mostly older cars but some newer European cars too.  hmmmm  even some fires.  Some are theorizing it might be ethanol (water) but of course there is no proof.

FUEL RAIL LEAKS NHTSA Defect Investigation #EA04003

    * Status:
      RECALL »
    * Date Opened: February 03, 2004
    * Date Closed: April 23, 2004
    * Recall: Recall #04V110000

Component: Fuel System, Gasoline:Fuel Injection System:Fuel Rail*

Summary: On March 3, 2004, General Motors notified ODI that it was recalling approximately 94,000 MY 1995-97 Oldsmobile Aurora vehicles equipped with 4.0L V8 engines (RPO L47 - vin8 "C") to address concerns with underhood fuel leakage from cracked fuel rails and, in some of the vehicles, cracked fuel return lines. According to GM, the nylon tubing (PA12) used in the fuel rail construction in these vehicles may degrade and crack. GM's supplier attributed the cracking to the combined effects of heat, time, alcohol fuel, fuel pressure cycling, and design stresses.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on November 17, 2010, 01:19:29 PM
Just for sh$%s and giggles, I googled "nylon gasoline leak" and variants using fuel, gas etc. and came up with a lot of hits on automotive sites.  I *think* this might be a more widespread problem than just Ducati tanks...  lots of mysterious leaks in fuel pumps and fuel rail fittings involving nylon bits (at least the threads say they are nylon) - mostly older cars but some newer European cars too.  hmmmm  even some fires.  Some are theorizing it might be ethanol (water) but of course there is no proof.

Bill there are different types of nylon and some are bad about water some aren't.  PA6 just happens to be SUPERbad -- it absorbs water like crazy.

If you have a bad tank and are getting it replaced, and have the capability to drain it, pour hot water into the filler.  No more than half a gallon.  Your tank will increase in size by about 100% overnight.

If I had the capability of a stop-frame video I would set this up as I have a spare tank that I sent out for testing.  I was shocked to see how fast it blew up.  I drained it, and dried it and stuck a hose with flowing air into the filler -- and it's shrunk back now.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Bill in OKC on November 17, 2010, 01:45:13 PM
That would be something to see!  I need a beer - no something stronger lol.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: dark_duc on November 17, 2010, 01:45:32 PM
My 696 tank warped and started leaking at the fuel pump fitting last August. Dealer approved the new tank under warranty immediately. What they don't tell you about is the back order on the tank. Took 2 friggin months for Ducati to ship a new tank. Wiped out my fall riding season. :'(

Luckily, mine didn't take that long.  I just got a call yesterday that the tank was in and it is getting installed today.

Total time from when I went in to get it initially looked at to driving with the new tank = 17 days


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on November 17, 2010, 03:34:08 PM
Given Ducati's funky shipping/parts setup, I think 2 months isn't crazy.  My Acid Yellow S2R tank took 4 months.  I wasn't surprised given the relative scarcity of the color -- the surface still smelt of VOCs


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: booger on November 17, 2010, 03:56:08 PM
My bike was manufactured as a Dark, but then the tank swelled and leaked so I bought a new gloss black with white stripe replacement. Now the new tank is swelling. I took my bike to Ducpond a few weeks back and they're supposed to be applying for a replacement on my behalf but I haven't heard anything yet. Would I likely receive a Dark tank, or a gloss black one? The gloss black one doesn't fit the frame anymore and is growing close to the ignition, but it doesn't leak at least. My understanding is that the dealer will only keep one tank, and I am only eligible for one replacement. I'd really rather at this point have a red one with a white stripe. This way I could just dry the black one out and let it shrink back to its proper dimension while running the red tank, then when it swells up switch to the black tank. Then when the black tank swells up again I could go back to the red tank that I'd been drying out, etc. Back and forth like that, tricking myself into the perception that I get a new bike every year or so. Don't want to go back to a Dark though.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducpainter on November 17, 2010, 04:01:29 PM
My bike was manufactured as a Dark, but then the tank swelled and leaked so I bought a new gloss black with white stripe replacement. Now the new tank is swelling. I took my bike to Ducpond a few weeks back and they're supposed to be applying for a replacement on my behalf but I haven't heard anything yet. Would I likely receive a Dark tank, or a gloss black one? The gloss black one doesn't fit the frame anymore and is growing close to the ignition, but it doesn't leak at least. My understanding is that the dealer will only keep one tank, and I am only eligible for one replacement. I'd really rather at this point have a red one with a white stripe. This way I could just dry the black one out and let it shrink back to its proper dimension while running the red tank, then when it swells up switch to the black tank. Then when the black tank swells up again I could go back to the red tank that I'd been drying out, etc. Back and forth like that, tricking myself into the perception that I get a new bike every year or so. Don't want to go back to a Dark though.
I think they are only able to replace what the bike was built with.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: booger on November 17, 2010, 04:17:17 PM
I think they are only able to replace what the bike was built with.

awww that's too bad [thumbsdown] :'(
be sending you a new tank to paint then


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: GAAN on November 17, 2010, 04:18:40 PM
Bill there are different types of nylon and some are bad about water some aren't.  PA6 just happens to be SUPERbad -- it absorbs water like crazy.

If you have a bad tank and are getting it replaced, and have the capability to drain it, pour hot water into the filler.  No more than half a gallon.  Your tank will increase in size by about 100% overnight.

If I had the capability of a stop-frame video I would set this up as I have a spare tank that I sent out for testing.  I was shocked to see how fast it blew up.  I drained it, and dried it and stuck a hose with flowing air into the filler -- and it's shrunk back now.

your above mentioned test is the same technique we used to do back in the day to increase the fuel capacity on our dirt bikes

except once adding the hot water and letting it sit we would hit it with the air hose to help the expansion

one would think acerbis would understand this phenomenon


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on November 17, 2010, 04:52:44 PM
Ducati has been honoring requests for alternate colours.  Talk to your dealer. 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: mjk778 on November 17, 2010, 06:18:02 PM
I may have missed it but, do we know if the tank will be replaced outside of the 5 year emissions warranty?  Specifically if the tank has already been replaced.  Does the warranty reset from date of the new tank?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on November 17, 2010, 06:19:27 PM
I may have missed it but, do we know if the tank will be replaced outside of the 5 year emissions warranty?  Specifically if the tank has already been replaced.  Does the warranty reset from date of the new tank?

Ducati has thus far replaced tanks regardless of warranty status, age, mileage, whether tank is painted or subsequent owner.  Some people have had 2 replacements already, I think a few have had 3.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on November 17, 2010, 06:21:41 PM
your above mentioned test is the same technique we used to do back in the day to increase the fuel capacity on our dirt bikes

except once adding the hot water and letting it sit we would hit it with the air hose to help the expansion

one would think acerbis would understand this phenomenon


Those tanks are HDPE, which expands due to heat but not due to water absorption.  You are essentially re-molding the tank by heating and blowing.

Nylon PA6 will absorb water down to very cold temperatures, I don't know the bottom end limit, I ordered a document from the lab on it.  Once it absorbs water it apparently does two things:  1, becomes more elastic and 2, the 'cels' of nylon become bigger, hence the swelling.

Most plastic tanks on dirt bikes and cars are HDPE, not nylon.  Even the Acerbis tanks for dirt bikes are HDPE.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Bladecutter on November 17, 2010, 08:45:19 PM
I have to ask:

Are the people who are having their tanks replaced, are your bikes garaged, or out in the elements, or ridden in the foul weather on a regular basis?

I wonder if people who have garaged bikes, that never ride in foul weather, are less likely to have a tank expand, than someone who has their bike sitting outside all year round.

Also, how many people from dry climates, like Arizona, New Mexico, Colorado, and Nevada are needing to have their tanks replaced, vs people from wet areas, like NY, Michigan, New Hampshire, and Washington?

Plus, where do the multiple tank replaced people live, and do their bikes get garaged, live outside, ride in foul weather, etc?
Those ones I'm really curious about.

So far, I don't think I've noticed anyone from Colorado saying they've needed to replace a tank.
Just wondering...

BC.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: mjk778 on November 17, 2010, 08:56:53 PM
NY Garaged  Never seen rain


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: herm on November 17, 2010, 09:42:27 PM
OR/NH/ME
always garaged
ridden in all kinds of weather

i think there is a direct connection between how often the bike is ridden (how often fuel sits in the tank) and the severity of the expansion problem.

up until recently i was cycling a tank of fuel almost every day. never had any signs of expansion. but in the last year (as my riding time has diminished) i have started to see some of the signs.

maybe i misunderstand the problem, but this makes sense to me since the fuel is not sitting in the tank long enough to cause mischief.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: xcaptainxbloodx on November 17, 2010, 09:46:48 PM
I saw a bike that had sat on the showroom since new get a new tank.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: DRKWNG on November 18, 2010, 02:54:32 AM
My SC has always been garage kept, both here in DC and in HI before.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Mojo S2R on November 18, 2010, 10:32:54 AM
NY Garaged  Never seen rain
How many tanks changed?

OR/NH/ME
always garaged
ridden in all kinds of weather
How many tanks changed?

My SC has always been garage kept, both here in DC and in HI before.
Same question?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: JimmyTheDriver on November 18, 2010, 12:30:57 PM
Just to chime in,

I purchased a 2007 S4R this spring with 4 miles on it.... talk about leftover inventory.

Anyway, it showed major signs of deformation on the tank while sitting on the showroom floor.  So much so that I got them to discount the bike because of the tank, which they later replaced before I even took delivery of the bike.  

Since delivery (with the new tank) I have ridden the bike 3.5k miles, which is at least a couple times a week with a long one or two on the weekends.  Always filled with Northern VA (10% ethanol) 93 octane gas.  The bike is kept in a detached, non-climate controlled garage and the second tank is already showing major signs of deformation.  Ripples, shifting off the bumpers, can hardly unclip it anymore.

So that puts me at needing a third tank in 6 months of ownership.  The first deformed on showroom floor over three years of sitting.  The second deformed over a couple months in a steamy garage over the summer.

-Jimmy

Edit: To the point below my post, it's extremely humid in Northern VA in the summer.



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on November 18, 2010, 12:42:34 PM
I have to ask:

Are the people who are having their tanks replaced, are your bikes garaged, or out in the elements, or ridden in the foul weather on a regular basis?

I wonder if people who have garaged bikes, that never ride in foul weather, are less likely to have a tank expand, than someone who has their bike sitting outside all year round.

Also, how many people from dry climates, like Arizona, New Mexico, Colorado, and Nevada are needing to have their tanks replaced, vs people from wet areas, like NY, Michigan, New Hampshire, and Washington?

It's a reasonable assumption that bikes from drier climates will have less replacements needed.

I don't think rain is an issue at all. 

Ethanol wicks moisture from the air.  The easy way to demostrate this is to put some pump gas into a small bottle -- like a liter soda bottle.  Let it sit open in a safe place, like your garage on a high shelf or some place it can't be easily knocked over.  After about 60 days, the ethanol will begin to separate. 

This is the separation with about half a liter of gasoline . I used pump 87 octane from Sunoco, 10% ethanol.  It sat for about 40 days.  It is hard to see in this pic, but the reddish part at the bottom is the ethanol and right on top it is about 1mm of clear fluid--pure water.
(http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l309/ducatiz/DMF/separation.jpg)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: arai_speed on November 18, 2010, 12:54:28 PM
My 2007 S4RS sits in an enclosed garage for most of the week.  She's fair weather weekend queen and mostly sees canyon roads.  89 octane, 10% ethanol is what I use.  I live on Los Angeles CA.

I went in for my 3rd tank this past weekend.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on November 18, 2010, 01:18:20 PM
Wow


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on November 18, 2010, 01:35:05 PM
I forget, do you have the original?

Call ducati cust svc?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: DRKWNG on November 18, 2010, 01:49:06 PM
How many tanks changed?
How many tanks changed?
Same question?

My SC currently has its third tank on it, and it is showing signs of deformation.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: sbrguy on November 18, 2010, 01:55:19 PM
wow so that is what it looks like with the ethanol separating with the water.  

but if that takes something like a few weeks to separate like that, if the gas is constantly shaken, ie you ride the bike it shouldnt separate?  but apparaently it doesn't matter and still does separate out to deform the tanks. strange.

for the older monster tanks it looks like that company out in japan with the alum tanks should be picking up business, yes they are expensive but to not have to deal with the tanks expanding anymore and the hassle may be worth it to some people.

i'm surprised the market for used FI metal tanks is not crazy good for sellers with the people of the older style monsters with plastic tanks.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on November 18, 2010, 02:10:30 PM
Shaking it doesn't remix.  The ethanol/water just sinks again.

My point also that you have no idea what condition the fuel tanks at your station are in, or how often they get refilled


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Meerkat on November 18, 2010, 02:28:11 PM
wow so that is what it looks like with the ethanol separating with the water.  

but if that takes something like a few weeks to separate like that, if the gas is constantly shaken, ie you ride the bike it shouldnt separate?  but apparaently it doesn't matter and still does separate out to deform the tanks. strange.

for the older monster tanks it looks like that company out in japan with the alum tanks should be picking up business, yes they are expensive but to not have to deal with the tanks expanding anymore and the hassle may be worth it to some people.

i'm surprised the market for used FI metal tanks is not crazy good for sellers with the people of the older style monsters with plastic tanks.
Turns out that the water doesn't have to separate to be absorbed by the plastic tank. Just the fact that the ethanol is present is enough to increase the rate at which the water is absorbed by the plastic.

You can think of this as a chemistry problem with multiple equilibria:

H2O(air)  ><  ethanol/gas mixture  ><  PA6   (where >< is equilibrium arrows)

If you look at the equilibrium between the H2O(air) and the ethanol/gas mixture, there is a partition coefficient which describes how much water dissolves in the ethanol/gas mixture. This is much higher than the amount of water that dissolves in pure gas (this is why ethanol free gas causes less of a problem). There is a similar equilibrium between the "wet" ethanol/gas mixture and the PA6. When the water enters the plastic, the material swells like a dry sponge that is wetted for the first time. The polyamide 6 (PA6) has lots of amides (as one would expect from its name) which can hydrogen bond with the water, which is why it absorbs it.

My chemistry phd tells me that this is a really shitty material for use in a critical place like fuel tanks, particularly given the desire of the feds to increase the ethanol content. Although I'm not a chem engineer, I think it's likely that the polymer properties are drastically different after exposure to h2o EVEN IF you "dry" it out and it "shrinks back" to its original size. The other thing that I think many people overlook is that the swelling is a 3-D process: you think your tank is bigger because it looks bigger on the outside, but the plastic is really just thicker. So I'd bet many of these tanks don't hold as much gas as they did when they were new and unswollen.

Just my 2cents! ;D


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: CDawg on November 18, 2010, 03:46:02 PM
...you think your tank is bigger because it looks bigger on the outside, but the plastic is really just thicker. So I'd bet many of these tanks don't hold as much gas as they did when they were new and unswollen.

There goes my silver lining. :-[


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Bladecutter on November 19, 2010, 07:23:29 AM
I hate to ask the obvious, but if your bike is going to sit a while, can you just drain the gas into a container, wait for the ethanol to separate, and then pour the ethanol free gas back into the tank, potentially eliminating the issue?

Then again, if you're going to go through all of that, you might as well just leave the tank empty, since its not going to rust internally like a metal tank might.

Sounds like it might be something to do for those who's bikes sit for winter storage, waiting for repair parts, or for any real amount of time? Might help reduce it, even a little bit.

BC.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on November 19, 2010, 07:28:22 AM
that's an interesting idea, but i believe that other components of the gasoline separate as well as the ethanol..  i don't know enough about it though, you could be onto something.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: sbrguy on November 19, 2010, 07:33:53 AM
I hate to ask the obvious, but if your bike is going to sit a while, can you just drain the gas into a container, wait for the ethanol to separate, and then pour the ethanol free gas back into the tank, potentially eliminating the issue?

Then again, if you're going to go through all of that, you might as well just leave the tank empty, since its not going to rust internally like a metal tank might.

Sounds like it might be something to do for those who's bikes sit for winter storage, waiting for repair parts, or for any real amount of time? Might help reduce it, even a little bit.

BC.

what would be cool is do that in gallon or larger sizes in your garage and then sell the "ethanol/water" free gasoline to other ducati folks for 1-2 dollars more per gallon.  ;D ;D


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: BK_856er on November 19, 2010, 09:17:02 AM
The thing about liquids and their interaction with the solid world is that mixtures can behave very differently compared to the individual components.  Dry gas or dry gas with ethanol might not be a problem, but gas with ethanol and some (inevitable, variable) moisture could be a troublemaker.

I would not be surprised if you could fill the tank with either pure water or pure ethanol and there would be minimal swelling or distortion over an extended time period.  However, make a mixture of the liquids and it could be a whole different ball game.  I don't think separation of the liquid components due to solubility is a factor.  In fact, the presence of ethanol or other alcohols will increase the solubility of water in the mix (and that could be the root of the problem).

If someone can send me some virgin PA6 I will setup an experiment to measure the mass and dimensional changes vs. time in various liquids. ;D

BK (yet another ducati riding phd chemist with two replaced tanks)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: herm on November 19, 2010, 09:38:30 AM
so, now i need to retrain my brain to empty the tank instead of fill and stabilize when i put it up for the winter..... [bang]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on November 19, 2010, 09:47:27 AM
I would not be surprised if you could fill the tank with either pure water or pure ethanol and there would be minimal swelling or distortion over an extended time period.  However, make a mixture of the liquids and it could be a whole different ball game.  I don't think separation of the liquid components due to solubility is a factor.  In fact, the presence of ethanol or other alcohols will increase the solubility of water in the mix (and that could be the root of the problem).

Already tested. 

Adding pure ethanol= no effect. 

Adding water (room temp) = slight effect (tank swells slightly after sitting for a week)
Adding water (90degF) = almost immediate effect.  tank swells almost immediately.
Adding water (150degF) = tanks swells up like a balloon within a few hours.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: BK_856er on November 19, 2010, 10:33:27 AM
Already tested. 

Adding pure ethanol= no effect. 

Adding water (room temp) = slight effect (tank swells slightly after sitting for a week)
Adding water (90degF) = almost immediate effect.  tank swells almost immediately.
Adding water (150degF) = tanks swells up like a balloon within a few hours.

That's too funny.  Thanks for sharing those results.

BK


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Meerkat on November 19, 2010, 11:56:30 AM
If someone can send me some virgin PA6 I will setup an experiment to measure the mass and dimensional changes vs. time in various liquids. ;D

BK (yet another ducati riding phd chemist with two replaced tanks)

Glad to know I'm not the only nerd around here! Sounds like you're a strong believer in the "6 months at the bench will save you 6 hours in the library" philosophy. I haven't done an exhaustive search, but there has been some work done on looking at the effect of ethanol/fuel mixtures on PA6. I hope to get a chance to nerd out on this over the holidays so I can spew all sorts of literature-supported scientific goodness about what a crappy choice PA6 is for ducati tanks.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: arai_speed on November 19, 2010, 12:26:17 PM
Looks like Girard Gibbs filed the suit:

http://www.courthousenews.com/2010/11/19/Ducati.pdf (http://www.courthousenews.com/2010/11/19/Ducati.pdf)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: howie on November 19, 2010, 01:10:36 PM
I hate to ask the obvious, but if your bike is going to sit a while, can you just drain the gas into a container, wait for the ethanol to separate, and then pour the ethanol free gas back into the tank, potentially eliminating the issue?

Then again, if you're going to go through all of that, you might as well just leave the tank empty, since its not going to rust internally like a metal tank might.

Sounds like it might be something to do for those who's bikes sit for winter storage, waiting for repair parts, or for any real amount of time? Might help reduce it, even a little bit.

BC.

Besides the unknown aspect ducatiz stated, ethanol is one of the ingredients used to build octane.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: DRKWNG on November 19, 2010, 01:24:14 PM
Looks like Girard Gibbs filed the suit:

http://www.courthousenews.com/2010/11/19/Ducati.pdf (http://www.courthousenews.com/2010/11/19/Ducati.pdf)

And there we have it.  There have been a bunch of turds on .MS all screaming to put Ducati out of business because of this tank issue.  Pretty sad when you think about it...


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on November 19, 2010, 01:35:09 PM
Crap.  I guess they really put down the pedal. 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: DRKWNG on November 19, 2010, 01:37:03 PM
If you read through the thread on .MS, I think the one guy who was so adamant about it might have been connected with the attorney's office. 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: BK_856er on November 19, 2010, 01:49:27 PM
Glad to know I'm not the only nerd around here! Sounds like you're a strong believer in the "6 months at the bench will save you 6 hours in the library" philosophy. I haven't done an exhaustive search, but there has been some work done on looking at the effect of ethanol/fuel mixtures on PA6. I hope to get a chance to nerd out on this over the holidays so I can spew all sorts of literature-supported scientific goodness about what a crappy choice PA6 is for ducati tanks.

Greetings, fellow molecular nerd!  Yes, I try to avoid the library because I only trust my own findings.  My second PhD is from the School of Hard Knocks  [bang]

BK


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducpainter on November 19, 2010, 02:22:55 PM
Crap.  I guess they really put down the pedal. 
This is gonna suck for everyone in the long run.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: DRKWNG on November 19, 2010, 02:24:13 PM
This is gonna suck for everyone in the long run.

It very well could. 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: booger on November 19, 2010, 02:39:00 PM
Jeez what a fiasco [thumbsdown]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: sbrguy on November 19, 2010, 03:39:30 PM
how is this stuff not happening to every single bike manufacturer? honda/yamaha/suzuki sells way more bikes than ducati ever does.

you would think that with so many of their bikes on the market the expanded tank issue would be going crazy with them, almost every single sport bike has a plastic tank, and most of the new bmw bikes do also, they should be having the same problems as ducati, what do they know that ducati doesn't?   

and if they are using a different plastic why isnt' ducati using the same one?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: howie on November 19, 2010, 08:31:32 PM
Crap.  I guess they really put down the pedal. 

Just thinking out loud.  Could the manufacturers counter sue the EPA since the real culprit is government mandated alcohol poisoning of our fuel?  Just looking for a silver cloud.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Satellite smithy on November 19, 2010, 09:01:07 PM
how is this stuff not happening to every single bike manufacturer? honda/yamaha/suzuki sells way more bikes than ducati ever does.

you would think that with so many of their bikes on the market the expanded tank issue would be going crazy with them, almost every single sport bike has a plastic tank, and most of the new bmw bikes do also, they should be having the same problems as ducati, what do they know that ducati doesn't?   

and if they are using a different plastic why isnt' ducati using the same one?

I don't typically help my competition. Maybe Honda figured it out, but I can't imagine why they'd share.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on November 20, 2010, 05:53:54 AM
Just thinking out loud.  Could the manufacturers counter sue the EPA since the real culprit is government mandated alcohol poisoning of our fuel?  Just looking for a silver cloud.

Howie, I don't think that would roll.  Ethanol has been in gasoline for many years now (as has various other interesting substances.. mtbe, toulene, etc) so it's really incumbent on the manufacturers to make sure their vehicles are compatible.  Acerbis/Ducati here had access to fuel but apparently did not test sufficiently or someone didn't ask the question about PA6 and water in the tank.

how is this stuff not happening to every single bike manufacturer? honda/yamaha/suzuki sells way more bikes than ducati ever does.

you would think that with so many of their bikes on the market the expanded tank issue would be going crazy with them, almost every single sport bike has a plastic tank, and most of the new bmw bikes do also, they should be having the same problems as ducati, what do they know that ducati doesn't?   

and if they are using a different plastic why isnt' ducati using the same one?

Plastic is not plastic. 

PA6 is not the same as HDPE and totally different from PEX.

There are at least half a dozen plastics I am aware of being used in fuel tanks. 

IIRC Acerbis makes PA6, PEX and HDPE tanks depending on the application.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: booger on November 20, 2010, 07:26:46 AM
Make 'em outta pyrex glass. Nip it in the bud.



 :D


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: howie on November 20, 2010, 07:49:58 AM
Howie, I don't think that would roll.  Ethanol has been in gasoline for many years now (as has various other interesting substances.. mtbe, toulene, etc) so it's really incumbent on the manufacturers to make sure their vehicles are compatible.  Acerbis/Ducati here had access to fuel but apparently did not test sufficiently or someone didn't ask the question about PA6 and water in the tank.

<snip>

Yeah, I figured that.  I was thinking more in lines of an industry wide and maybe even consumer class action suite since the ethanol is playing havoc on all kinds of equipment, old and new and does not reduce pollution as claimed.  Maybe then they will get the ethanol out. 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: herm on November 20, 2010, 12:20:20 PM

Plastic is not plastic. 

PA6 is not the same as HDPE and totally different from PEX.

There are at least half a dozen plastics I am aware of being used in fuel tanks. 

IIRC Acerbis makes PA6, PEX and HDPE tanks depending on the application.

is there any data on the other plastics and their reaction to ethanol? or, to put it another way, has Acerbis considered (and if not, why not) using a different plastic for these tanks?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: sbrguy on November 20, 2010, 12:55:15 PM
Plastic is not plastic. 

PA6 is not the same as HDPE and totally different from PEX.

There are at least half a dozen plastics I am aware of being used in fuel tanks. 

IIRC Acerbis makes PA6, PEX and HDPE tanks depending on the application.
[/quote]

sure plastic may not be plastic that makes sense, but you would think that ducati would have seen from teh feedback that the current plastic is not working and told the 3rd party to change the plastic to something else. 

or at the very least order a tank from rival bikes and test them to see which one is the best plastic and just use the same stuff.

Mr I, DUH!! i'm not saying that other manufacturers have to "help" ducati, but there is no law against ducati ordering a few plastic tanks from competitors to then figure out what plastic they are using and reverse engineer it.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: J.P. on November 20, 2010, 02:33:57 PM
Interesting that the lawsuit mentions several times of a replacement aluminum tank in the works.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: NorDog on November 20, 2010, 05:49:14 PM
This is gonna suck for everyone in the long run.

How so?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducpainter on November 20, 2010, 05:59:33 PM
How so?
Just my take...

Ducati makes a cash settlement...the girard-briggs firm cashes in...

and every member of the class action gets $100....the actual number yet to be determined.

The problem eventually gets solved, but the current members of the class get no real resolution because they now have no claim.

Now you have thousands of people that hate the brand.

The best solution is the one 'tizz was working towards.

Ducati keeps the owners motos safe and pretty by replacing swelled tanks until the problem is resolved.

It's a rare situation when anyone but the lawyer gets much out of the situation...just sayin'



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Meerkat on November 20, 2010, 06:31:26 PM
If the class is certified, you can always opt out and not be bound by the terms of the settlement.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducpainter on November 20, 2010, 06:41:55 PM
If the class is certified, you can always opt out and not be bound by the terms of the settlement.
I understand that.

At that point Ducati falls back on the 5 year emissions warranty and someone that actually likes their bike, except for the plastic tank, is screwed.

The only one that will get anything of real value from this type of suit is the law firm.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: muskrat on November 20, 2010, 08:45:20 PM
Just my take...

Ducati makes a cash settlement...the girard-briggs firm cashes in...

and every member of the class action gets $100....the actual number yet to be determined.

The problem eventually gets solved, but the current members of the class get no real resolution because they now have no claim.

Now you have thousands of people that hate the brand.

The best solution is the one 'tizz was working towards.

Ducati keeps the owners motos safe and pretty by replacing swelled tanks until the problem is resolved.

It's a rare situation when anyone but the lawyer gets much out of the situation...just sayin'


Good point.  I hope these lawyers are sensible and just make it right instead of bringing the house of cards down.  I personally don't see how after spending some $15k on a bike (rounding number) they can't clear it up considering Ducati sells around 30 to 40k of bikes a year, or so I've heard.  I wont buy another Ducati with a plastic tank unless I know it's fixed.  Both my Ducs are metal tanks for that reason.  Just couldn't see my old S2r suffer so much we had to part ways.
 
Now what was the best solution they were working towards? 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: GAAN on November 21, 2010, 01:19:13 AM
So if Mr gobbstopper's lawsuit gets filed and they win

what is the projected/assumed effect on the current tank replacement system in place now?

if it kills it

would it be more cost effective to purchase a second plastic tank

and

implement your own swelling/shrinking maintenance schedule

or

mod a metal tank to fit?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Meerkat on November 21, 2010, 03:00:36 AM
I wouldn't recommend the 2 tank cycling method to keep a decent tank on the bike. Every time it swells/shrinks, the physical properties of the plastic change. Who knows what sort of safety problems that could lead too...imagine a bulge on the bottom of a freshly-filled tank bursting while you're cooking it through the canyons at a spirited paceTM. Future DMFers will be saying, "Mother went out riding a ball of flames!"


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: GAAN on November 21, 2010, 03:20:27 AM
I wouldn't recommend the 2 tank cycling method to keep a decent tank on the bike. Every time it swells/shrinks, the physical properties of the plastic change. Who knows what sort of safety problems that could lead too...imagine a bulge on the bottom of a freshly-filled tank bursting while you're cooking it through the canyons at a spirited paceTM. Future DMFers will be saying, "Mother went out riding a ball of flames!"

 [laugh]

metal tanked monster riders have gone out in a similar fashion...who was that australian guy who burned down several hundred acres?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on November 21, 2010, 05:28:59 AM
Interesting that the lawsuit mentions several times of a replacement aluminum tank in the works.

I am curious where you read that.  Paragraph 21 claims that Ducati developed an aluminum tank in 2006 "behind the scenes" but no other place that I see outside of that mention.



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: slower than... on November 21, 2010, 05:43:31 AM
Just my take...

Ducati makes a cash settlement...the girard-briggs firm cashes in...

and every member of the class action gets $100....the actual number yet to be determined.

The problem eventually gets solved, but the current members of the class get no real resolution because they now have no claim.

Now you have thousands of people that hate the brand.

The best solution is the one 'tizz was working towards.

Ducati keeps the owners motos safe and pretty by replacing swelled tanks until the problem is resolved.

It's a rare situation when anyone but the lawyer gets much out of the situation...just sayin'



I am one of the many folks on ducati.ms that has an SC and has complained about this issue.  Iz knows who I am.  I am also not interested in being a part of this lawsuit, because I don't want to see Ducati harmed. Having said that, we're all pretty frustrated that it take this kind of thing to force Ducati to do anything about solving the tank problem (no, replacing is not solving).

I do not understand this post.  Are we saying Ducati can agree to a cash settlement without fixing the problem?  And if so, should they ever solve the problem, those that accepted the settlement has no further claim?  That makes no sense whatsoever, but I suppose that is how the legal world turns.

Truthfully, if Ducati would do something like that, cashing out versus addressing the problem, screwing us over in the process, what little loyalty I have left for them would be gone.  

I agree with Iz's approach too, although it has been YEARS now, and Ducati has not come up with a solution that is FINANCIALLY ACCEPTABLE TO THEM.  So for now, they have been stringing us out.  I suspect Iz has been feeling that too.  The problem for us is that we have no guarantee that Ducati will continue to keep replacing the tanks.   


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on November 21, 2010, 05:46:29 AM
I am one of the many folks on ducati.ms that has an SC and has complained about this issue.  Iz knows who I am.  I am also not interested in being a part of this lawsuit, because I don't want to see Ducat harmed.  Having said that, we're all pretty frustrated that it take this kind of thing to force Ducati to do anything about solving the tank problem (no, replacing is not solving).

I do not understand this post.  Are we saying Ducati can agree to a cash settlement without fixing the problem?  And if so, should they ever solve the problem, those that accepted the settlement has no further claim?  That makes no sense whatsoever, but I suppose that is how the legal world turns.

Truthfully, if Ducati would do something like that, cashing out versus adressing the problem, screwing us over in the process, what little loyalty I have left for them would be gone. 

The law firm could accept a cash settlement from Ducati with a promise to fix the tanks later, if it is accepted by the court.

It is commonly done. 

Regardless of the solution, you won't see a new tank for 1-2 years.  They aren't sitting in a warehouse somewhere.  The new tanks don't exist.  They might be on the way, but nothing I have access to says they have new ones yet.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: slower than... on November 21, 2010, 06:04:11 AM
The law firm could accept a cash settlement from Ducati with a promise to fix the tanks later, if it is accepted by the court.

It is commonly done. 

Regardless of the solution, you won't see a new tank for 1-2 years.  They aren't sitting in a warehouse somewhere.  The new tanks don't exist.  They might be on the way, but nothing I have access to says they have new ones yet.

But I would guess such a settlement would still assure that the plaintiffs would get said fixed tanks should they ever come around.  So there really isn't a situation that one would settle for $100 and exclude himself from a new tank in the process, is there?

I think the demand that Ducati disclose the problem to any potential buyer is the most difficult one for Ducati, if such an order can be enforced.  You would think it would effectively kill sales until a fix is done.  Can they survive not selling any bikes here for the  1-2 years before a new tank is released?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: herm on November 21, 2010, 06:58:05 AM

mod a metal tank to fit?

definitely a metal tank, if you can find one. the only thing needed is the different hinge assembly, and they go on.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: GAAN on November 21, 2010, 07:04:07 AM
definitely a metal tank, if you can find one. the only thing needed is the different hinge assembly, and they go on.

well

I have one

I promised it to Jesus for Lu's store but if this gobstopper make the beast with two backs is going to ruin the tank replacement program

I'll keep my wrecked tank on my bike and mod the new tank for Jess' 800

can one of you lawyers spell it for me in plain english if this guy winning the lawsuit for .ms will make the beast with two backs up what the dealerships are doing now for tank replacement?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on November 21, 2010, 07:25:42 AM
No guarantee of anything.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: WetDuc on November 21, 2010, 08:41:50 AM
What's the current feel on Startron and Stabil?
I tried Stabil in my S2R and after a couple miles, the bike got used to it and runs pretty much the same.  The first couple miles it kinda gurgled and popped a bit, not very noticeably different than normal though.
Might these additives actually prevent the tank warpage?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: sbrguy on November 21, 2010, 09:24:22 AM
look at it this way, everyone is saying its the lawyers fault and if this ruins ducati its the attorneys that make out and harming ducati is not good.

ok here is how i see it.  ducati as a corp makes more than any of us combined, right now they are in the drivers seat if you have a bike, sure your spent 15-40k on a bike and if you have to complain about the tank, big deal that isn't much money to them if you never buy a bike from them again, what maybe you buy 1 or2 more bikes again that isn't a lot of money to a huge corp like theirs.

so for now ducati sees fit to just string things along replace cheap tanks, etc maybe things will die down we can go at our own pace to figure out a new tank solution.

right now the situation isn't bad enough for ducati to really get off their asses and fix the problem.  do you really think it would take over 1-2 years (that they have been warranty replacing tanks) for them to fix the problem if there was an injunction saying they couldn't sell the bike anymore in the US?

i personally think ducait would come up with a solution within weeks if a court said no more bikes being sold until you fix this and couch it as a safety issue. 

companies have a way of moving very fast when their asses are on the line, right now ducati is not doing a damn thing becasue honestly their asses aren't on the line yet.

ducati could have stopped all of this when they started seeing the replacement tanks being done, and lit a fire under their own asses and used a different plastic, but for some reason they have not.  maybe its cost related, etc, but the fact is now they are going to have to fix things because their asses may be on the line.

we can all like ducati a lot, and i do too, but sometimes when someone is just doing a half assed job you have to call them out on it and tell them simply "quit dicking around and do it the right way".  that is what a lawsuit is really for, its the equivalent of that saying.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on November 21, 2010, 10:05:47 AM
The question isn't whether Ducati should provide a solution.

The question is how much money should a disinterested 3rd party get for doing that.  And also how much money should you be paid by Ducati for selling a bad tank?

Their suit wants restitution paid over getting a good tank.  At $100 per tank, that will be over $5mil.  And for what? Then add that to the bill rate of their 3 attorneys working this.

I've been on it over a year, I have less experience and they've used all of my info that I've posted.  And they still need 3 guys on it?   


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: booger on November 21, 2010, 11:10:47 AM
Does anyone think it possible that Ducati may pull out of the US market like Alfa did? Not really sure why Alfa left. I know Peugeot pulled out inexplicably as well.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducpainter on November 21, 2010, 11:15:06 AM
Anything is possible.

I think their market here is too large to simply walk away from.

I'll guarantee the price of a new bike won't go down.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: NorDog on November 21, 2010, 11:32:22 AM
I don't want any money.  I just want a tank that works like it should.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: sbrguy on November 21, 2010, 04:01:51 PM
The question isn't whether Ducati should provide a solution.

The question is how much money should a disinterested 3rd party get for doing that.  And also how much money should you be paid by Ducati for selling a bad tank?

Their suit wants restitution paid over getting a good tank.  At $100 per tank, that will be over $5mil.  And for what? Then add that to the bill rate of their 3 attorneys working this.

I've been on it over a year, I have less experience and they've used all of my info that I've posted.  And they still need 3 guys on it?   

a disinterested 3rd party may make money off of this, but it would have never even come to this if ducati would fix the problem asap, apparently to them the owners of many monsters doesn't matter to them.

so sometimes you have to bring in a 3rd party to makes someome do something that they should have done.

look nobody likes when someone else gets money for something that we think they don't deserve, but that person isn't needed if people just do their damn jobs, and in this case ducati has been doing a half assed job at best.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducpainter on November 21, 2010, 04:19:02 PM
a disinterested 3rd party may make money off of this, but it would have never even come to this if ducati would fix the problem asap, apparently to them the owners of many monsters doesn't matter to them.

so sometimes you have to bring in a 3rd party to makes someome do something that they should have done.

look nobody likes when someone else gets money for something that we think they don't deserve, but that person isn't needed if people just do their damn jobs, and in this case ducati has been doing a half assed job at best.
looks like we disagree on that.

a third party is needed when a manufacturer turns their back and walks away.

Ducati had not done that. I'd suggest that in the world of manufacturing there is rarely a quick solution to an issue like this particularly when their are governmental regulations and certifications involved.

Ducati was spending big money trying to keep people happy while a long term solution was worked out.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on November 21, 2010, 04:39:24 PM
a disinterested 3rd party may make money off of this, but it would have never even come to this if ducati would fix the problem asap, apparently to them the owners of many monsters doesn't matter to them.

the assumption you've made (and a lot of people have made) is that a solution to this problem was just sitting around or already done.  it isn't.

developing a wholly new tank requires ducati to go back and re-homologate the tank for every model it will be used on.  that means before they have the manufacturing and distribution cost, they have to develop models, have them tested, refined, retested and then they get to the manufacturing.

a lot of people keep harping about getting a metal tank, but i can pretty much safely say that will not happen.  going to a metal tank would change the bike immensely.  people think that because they can buy one from DP or whomever that it means it would be easy for Ducati to do the same thing.  They can't.  As a manufacturer, they are bonded to putting homologated vehicles on the road.  Those tanks you get are NOT homologated, which is why they often say "for off road use only."  Same with most of the "upgrades" you buy from DP etc.  Ducati legally CANNOT put them on a bike as a manufacturer.

A metal tank will change the profile of the bike in such a way it cannot be homologated.  Another plastic tank will be used.

Quote
so sometimes you have to bring in a 3rd party to makes someome do something that they should have done.

look nobody likes when someone else gets money for something that we think they don't deserve, but that person isn't needed if people just do their damn jobs, and in this case ducati has been doing a half assed job at best.

Please go back and look at the beginning of this thread.  I have been talking with Ducati for over a year now.  They have been doing their jobs, and there may be a lot of internal politics at Ducati that has prevented moving forward. 

However, they have been replacing EVERY single tank that comes in the door.  Dealers have been giving people problem, but not Ducati.  I have no idea how much money they've wasted doing that, especially when people continue carping about it.  I don't know of any manufacturer that will do something like this.



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: duccarlos on November 21, 2010, 05:50:53 PM
Not only that, but they probably have contractual obligations with Acerbis. You can't just decide to change the tank. All this lawsuit will do is increase the price of the bikes. That's it. This is the "sue first and ask questions later" mentality. Tizz, can you do something about this firm using all your work in their suit without your consent? I guess since this is a public forum, that there's very little you can do.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: duccarlos on November 21, 2010, 05:52:36 PM
Going further, could Ducati use you as character witness to show that they truly have been doing their best at replacing the defective tanks?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducpainter on November 21, 2010, 05:54:31 PM
Well...

he is quite a character.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: howie on November 21, 2010, 06:08:21 PM
Quite simply if the numbers don't add up Ducati could decide to pull out of the US if the numbers don't add up.  Alpha and Peugot aren't the only automotive companies that pulled out of the US market, add Fiat, Citroen, Renault to the count.  VW almost left in '92.  Will they pull out because of the Gobbstopper's lawsuit?  Dunno, but it could be the straw that breaks the camel's back.

Ducatiz knows much more than the legal issues here.  He also understands the EPA and DOT certification issues Ducati has to go through to fix these problems.  Listen to him.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: muskrat on November 21, 2010, 06:11:41 PM
I'm NOT an Attorney and certainly NOT a manufacturer but I went through 2 tanks on my S2R in less than a year.  Fortunately our dealer in DFW was great and replaced them both no questions asked.  I have to think that doing just that was more expensive, if it happens regularly, than just creating a new tank.  In any event I hope this gets resolved quickly and not bump the price of the new Strada to the Stratosphere, at least not before I buy one.  [evil]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: J.P. on November 22, 2010, 04:41:25 AM
I am curious where you read that.  Paragraph 21 claims that Ducati developed an aluminum tank in 2006 "behind the scenes" but no other place that I see outside of that mention.



Oopse- only mentioned twice, not several times. Can't remember which section now, think it was pg 8(?).


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Spidey on November 22, 2010, 11:58:20 AM
I just read the complaint.  Interesting . . .  :-\


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: sbrguy on November 22, 2010, 12:17:38 PM
well hopefully ducati will fix this problem sooner not later, yes its not easy changing fuel tanks and such, but they have to come up with a solution sooner not later.

i for one will not get a 2010 ducati which is now on sale at local dealers because of this very tank issue popping up.  like i said, my money to ducait really doesn't matter because its chump change to them in the long run.  about the only people they will get to buy the new bikes are new people because older customers may wait this one out, which when you think about it, all they should care about is new customers.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on November 22, 2010, 12:24:14 PM
...which when you think about it, all they should care about is new customers.

old customers buy parts and at some point upgrade (or replace) their bikes.

plus, current customers join ducati clubs and wear ducati gear, which is seen by non-owners who may be convinced to buy one.

i know my buddy bought an S2R just like mine after trying mine out.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: mitt on November 22, 2010, 12:33:03 PM
I wonder if Ducati did themselves more harm than good by changing out tanks.  That is an admission of a problem and should make this suit a slam dunk.

I work in an design and manufacturing company, and I still can't believe it is more expensive to redesign and make a new plastic tank than performing all these goodwill replacements, multiple times per bike.

I doubt any of the major bike brands actually make the tanks either.  It is an outside supplier (maybe only 1 or 2 in the world), so this should not be rocket science.


mitt


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on November 22, 2010, 12:42:00 PM
I wonder if Ducati did themselves more harm than good by changing out tanks.  That is an admission of a problem and should make this suit a slam dunk.

I work in an design and manufacturing company, and I still can't believe it is more expensive to redesign and make a new plastic tank than performing all these goodwill replacements, multiple times per bike.


I don't think they did any harm.  If anything, it shows a costly attempt to keep bikes in running shape while they seek a solution.

I believe the problem in finding a replacement is two fold:  1, alternative materials are not as easy to homologate and/or paint to the same quality as the original and 2, the original material would be just fine if they could use some sort of barrier coating for the inner layer which would not prevent the original tank from being homologated.

The main materials used for gas tanks are layered HDPE and PEX.

HDPE is not finishable to the same quality.

PEX is more problematic to finish. 

I don't know of any other materials being used in gas tanks besides PA6. 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: DrDesmo on November 22, 2010, 01:08:09 PM

I don't think they did any harm.  If anything, it shows a costly attempt to keep bikes in running shape while they seek a solution.

I believe the problem in finding a replacement is two fold:  1, alternative materials are not as easy to homologate and/or paint to the same quality as the original and 2, the original material would be just fine if they could use some sort of barrier coating for the inner layer which would not prevent the original tank from being homologated.

The main materials used for gas tanks are layered HDPE and PEX.

HDPE is not finishable to the same quality.

PEX is more problematic to finish. 

I don't know of any other materials being used in gas tanks besides PA6. 

To play devil's advocate for a minute, why hasn't my 10+ year old Falco tank (Plastic, awesome finish) and/or my Sprint ST's tank had any adhesion / expansion issues?  Both plastic, both ethanol fuel, etc.  More genuine curiosity than anything... Keep up the good fight  [thumbsup]

Cheers,
Adam


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: herm on November 22, 2010, 01:25:21 PM

I believe the problem in finding a replacement is two fold:  1, alternative materials are not as easy to homologate and/or paint to the same quality as the original and 2, the original material would be just fine if they could use some sort of barrier coating for the inner layer which would not prevent the original tank from being homologated.


i imagine another issue is getting a new material tank certified as OEM (or equivalent) for the purposes of EPA/NTSB/...not to mention California compliance.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: arai_speed on November 22, 2010, 01:34:18 PM
While reading my latest copy of RRW - they have a small column on new 2011 models - two of them being the 1198 and the 1198SP - aside from the difference in suspension between the base and SP model.  The SP model also gets a larger tank (4.75-gallon vs. 4.1-gallon) and...drumroll please....an ALUMINUM fuel tank as opposed to a "composite tank" found on the base model.

So if you don't want any tank expansion problems on your next Duc - just fork out the cash for the $22K MSRP on the SP model and you'll be set!


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: NorDog on November 22, 2010, 01:45:04 PM
Couldn't they just design some drop in fuel cells?  It could cure the problem and have the benefit of an added safety factor.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: DrDesmo on November 22, 2010, 01:48:36 PM
While reading my latest copy of RRW - they have a small column on new 2011 models - two of them being the 1198 and the 1198SP - aside from the difference in suspension between the base and SP model.  The SP model also gets a larger tank (4.75-gallon vs. 4.1-gallon) and...drumroll please....an ALUMINUM fuel tank as opposed to a "composite tank" found on the base model.

So if you don't want any tank expansion problems on your next Duc - just fork out the cash for the $22K MSRP on the SP model and you'll be set!

IIRC, the aluminum tanks on the SP models are so they can homologate them for competition, correct?

Adam


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on November 22, 2010, 01:56:46 PM
To play devil's advocate for a minute, why hasn't my 10+ year old Falco tank (Plastic, awesome finish) and/or my Sprint ST's tank had any adhesion / expansion issues?  Both plastic, both ethanol fuel, etc.  More genuine curiosity than anything... Keep up the good fight  [thumbsup]

Cheers,
Adam

I don't know, what are they made of?

My guess is that those might be blown HDPE with some kind of external hand-applied coating.  I know the Cagiva Elefants had this kind.  It was a huge pain in the ass to finish, but they were very lightweight.

Alternatively, maybe they coated them.  Bear in mind emissions regulations have changed DRASTICALLY in 10 years...


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: NorDog on November 22, 2010, 03:21:18 PM
Who can make a nice aluminum tank for my 2007 S4RS?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Triple J on November 22, 2010, 03:28:11 PM
Who can make a nice aluminum tank for my 2007 S4RS?

http://www.moto-works.jp/beater/index.html#d9 (http://www.moto-works.jp/beater/index.html#d9)

I think these would work.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducpainter on November 22, 2010, 04:50:58 PM
http://www.moto-works.jp/beater/index.html#d9 (http://www.moto-works.jp/beater/index.html#d9)

I think these would work.
Maybe with an old style pump and an added external pressure regulator.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Mhanis on November 22, 2010, 09:24:09 PM
http://www.moto-works.jp/beater/index.html#d9 (http://www.moto-works.jp/beater/index.html#d9)

I think these would work.

Those friggin' things are beautiful.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: muskrat on November 22, 2010, 09:27:25 PM
dam that's expensive.  :o


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: booger on November 22, 2010, 09:58:01 PM
dam that's expensive.  :o

so's an OEM plastic tank


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: arai_speed on November 23, 2010, 09:41:35 AM
so's an OEM plastic tank

But the OEM tank comes painted - this thing you have to pay $90 to have it shipped + you gotta pay for the paint and/or painter!


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Triple J on November 23, 2010, 10:59:06 AM
Maybe with an old style pump and an added external pressure regulator.

They make an injected and a carbed model...there's more??  ???


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: NorDog on November 23, 2010, 11:26:13 AM
But the OEM tank comes painted - this thing you have to pay $90 to have it shipped + you gotta pay for the paint and/or painter!

I can't defend the shipping costs, but a couple of cans of VHT Matte Black paint is pretty cheap.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Raux on November 23, 2010, 01:25:00 PM
so the lawsuit? any of you guys?

I just think he's not including enough people.
The government for mandating ethanol
The lobbyist for pushing it
The ethanol producers for damages to the tanks and systems
The stations that didn't refuse it or offer options


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Spidey on November 23, 2010, 01:29:16 PM
so the lawsuit? any of you guys?

Which lawsuit are you talking about?  The one that was filed?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: duccarlos on November 23, 2010, 01:51:57 PM
I just think he's not including enough people.
The government for mandating ethanol
The lobbyist for pushing it
The ethanol producers for damages to the tanks and systems
The stations that didn't refuse it or offer options

You can't sue those people. Ducati is the low hanging fruit.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducpainter on November 23, 2010, 02:15:29 PM
They make an injected and a carbed model...there's more??  ???

The pump from the S*R versions is different. More like SBKs that mount on the flange. I don't think it will slip right in to the bracket in an earlier steel tank. Also the pressure regulator is in the tank/flange like the SBKs. You'd have to add an external one like on the pre plastic tank models.



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: NorDog on November 23, 2010, 02:36:47 PM
The pump from the S*R versions is different. More like SBKs that mount on the flange. I don't think it will slip right in to the bracket in an earlier steel tank. Also the pressure regulator is in the tank/flange like the SBKs. You'd have to add an external one like on the pre plastic tank models.



So what I'm thinking is that no one makes a direct replacement tank made of aluminum, steel, iron, copper, or bronze.  Sounds like a direct replacement tank made of metal really is unobtanium.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Bill in OKC on November 23, 2010, 03:11:56 PM
You can't sue those people. Ducati is the low hanging fruit.

http://thehill.com/blogs/e2-wire/677-e2-wire/122643-texans-seek-industry-legal-protection-from-higher-ethanol-use- (http://thehill.com/blogs/e2-wire/677-e2-wire/122643-texans-seek-industry-legal-protection-from-higher-ethanol-use-)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Raux on November 23, 2010, 03:53:35 PM
FOund this through DucatiMiami

http://www.girardgibbs.com/Ducati.asp (http://www.girardgibbs.com/Ducati.asp)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Spidey on November 23, 2010, 04:13:26 PM
Raux, if you flip back through the thread, you'll find that it was discussed (and is still being discussed) starting a coupla pages ago.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Raux on November 23, 2010, 04:15:01 PM
Raus, if you flip back through the thread, you'll find that it was discussed (and is still being discussed) starting a coupla pages ago.
oh, sorry. DucatiNewsToday apparently posted DucatiNews from Yesterday ;)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: herm on November 23, 2010, 07:37:50 PM
The pump from the S*R versions is different. More like SBKs that mount on the flange. I don't think it will slip right in to the bracket in an earlier steel tank. Also the pressure regulator is in the tank/flange like the SBKs. You'd have to add an external one like on the pre plastic tank models.

but... you can use the earlier pump and filter for the s2r models.

bookmarked the page.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducpainter on November 24, 2010, 03:47:32 AM
but... you can use the earlier pump and filter for the s2r models.

bookmarked the page.
I don't think so.

You would still need the flange to block off the hole...

the flange comes with a pump and all the goodies for about $1800.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: redxblack on November 24, 2010, 06:35:20 AM
So what I'm thinking is that no one makes a direct replacement tank made of aluminum, steel, iron, copper, or bronze.  Sounds like a direct replacement tank made of metal really is unobtanium.

Anyone with the startup capital and willingness to go into fabrication could make some bank - especially if they could get Ducati to license them as DP parts.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: herm on November 24, 2010, 07:11:16 AM
I don't think so.

You would still need the flange to block off the hole...

the flange comes with a pump and all the goodies for about $1800.

i didn't see on the site where it said if the monster tank had the flange style fuel pump, or the older. i assumed not.

which doesn't mean i am right....


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: GAAN on November 24, 2010, 07:26:55 AM
I don't think so.

You would still need the flange to block off the hole...

the flange comes with a pump and all the goodies for about $1800.

4k

for a "beater" gas tank




Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Raux on November 24, 2010, 08:18:14 AM
so no one is making a metal tank that you can direct swap all the parts from the plastic tanks?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducpainter on November 24, 2010, 08:26:29 AM
i didn't see on the site where it said if the monster tank had the flange style fuel pump, or the older. i assumed not.

which doesn't mean i am right....
You're talking the aluminum? I was talking OEM.

I don't think the S*R  pump will work unless it's installed in the factory flange.

None of us have seen how they mount the pump in the a/m aluminum tanks...

so we're both probably wrong. ;)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: JimmyTheDriver on November 24, 2010, 08:57:51 AM
Hope this is not a derby - first I have seen of it.

http://www.ducatinewstoday.com/2010/11/ducati-sued-over-faulty-gas-tanks/ (http://www.ducatinewstoday.com/2010/11/ducati-sued-over-faulty-gas-tanks/)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Raux on November 24, 2010, 09:09:15 AM
Hope this is not a derby - first I have seen of it.

http://www.ducatinewstoday.com/2010/11/ducati-sued-over-faulty-gas-tanks/ (http://www.ducatinewstoday.com/2010/11/ducati-sued-over-faulty-gas-tanks/)
[laugh] [thumbsup]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: duccarlos on November 24, 2010, 10:15:53 AM
Hope this is not a derby - first I have seen of it.

http://www.ducatinewstoday.com/2010/11/ducati-sued-over-faulty-gas-tanks/ (http://www.ducatinewstoday.com/2010/11/ducati-sued-over-faulty-gas-tanks/)

I saw that one posted on FB yesterday.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: hillbillypolack on November 28, 2010, 09:22:10 PM
Oh boy.   [popcorn]

I am on the doorstep of getting my tank replaced, and saw this last week.  It certainly does place the fault at the feet of Ducati and Acerbis.  If it's proven that Ducati willingly manufactured tanks without taking into account the fuel composition, then they are liable for much more than replacements.  In fact, I can recall seeing E10 in fuel stations in 2000 or 2001.  There was also considerable talk of ethanol (e85) and biofuels (not as a common fuel however) when gasoline was up near $3/gal.

So, if Ducati did not plan to design and sell proper gas tanks in their biggest market it's a greed driven decision, IMHO.  They clearly thought the consumer would look the other way and deal with the replacements.

Sorry, Ducati.  If I am offered the 'necessary' Termignonis to get the bike to run right, need to re-gear for proper running, and contend with distorting fuel tanks, it may be my last Ducati.  At least new. . .


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Satellite smithy on November 28, 2010, 09:55:29 PM

So, if Ducati did not plan to design and sell proper gas tanks in their biggest market it's a greed driven decision, IMHO.  They clearly thought the consumer would look the other way and deal with the replacements.


It's not cheaper for them to provide multiple tanks per bike instead of building one that didn't do this.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: xcaptainxbloodx on November 28, 2010, 10:12:41 PM
today I realized something, Ducati probably doesn't make our gas tanks themselves.  they likely outsource it to a seperate company.

that means that when we have a problem and take it to our dealer, and our dealer contacts ducati, ducati contacts that third party to make the tank.

im betting theres some maaaaajor behind the scenes crap flinging going on between ducati and whoever makes the tanks over this issue. ducati probably isnt paying for replacement tanks/labor and whoever is making the tanks is probably falling over themselves trying to figure out how to make proper tanks.

dont know for sure. but makes sense right?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on November 29, 2010, 05:37:55 AM
Oh boy.   [popcorn]

I am on the doorstep of getting my tank replaced, and saw this last week.  It certainly does place the fault at the feet of Ducati and Acerbis.  If it's proven that Ducati willingly manufactured tanks without taking into account the fuel composition, then they are liable for much more than replacements.  In fact, I can recall seeing E10 in fuel stations in 2000 or 2001.  There was also considerable talk of ethanol (e85) and biofuels (not as a common fuel however) when gasoline was up near $3/gal.

So, if Ducati did not plan to design and sell proper gas tanks in their biggest market it's a greed driven decision, IMHO.  They clearly thought the consumer would look the other way and deal with the replacements.

I am going to have to disagree with you on that last point.  As far as I understand, it was Acerbis' responsibility to test the tanks with fuel in Ducati's markets.  That doesn't change who you have to go to for a new tank or satisfaction though, but I would not characterize their actions as "greed driven" especially in light of the fact that they are replacing gas tanks for out-of-warranty bikes and bikes owned by subsequent purchasers (non-original owners).

And that is me, the attorney with my finger on the trigger for a (second) lawsuit against Ducati.

If you look at their actions since this whole thing started, I see a company either fighting with itself or running around with cranio-rectal inversion, but trying to do something positive.

I agree there is some dumb-assery involved given the prevalence of ethanol in gasoline in the USA, and Ducati has the legal responsibility to ensure their tanks are compatible.  But I don't see it as greed. 

Hopefully this/these lawsuit(s) will give them the kick in the ass they need to make public their plans for long term.  They can't replace these tanks forever.



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on November 29, 2010, 05:38:43 AM
today I realized something, Ducati probably doesn't make our gas tanks themselves.  they likely outsource it to a seperate company.

Don't mean to be rude, but did you just crawl out from under your rock?   ;D

The tanks have ACERBIS stamped on them underneath. 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on November 29, 2010, 05:42:46 AM
It's not cheaper for them to provide multiple tanks per bike instead of building one that didn't do this.

I think that's not a given.

In order to make a tank that doesn't have this problem they must:

1.  Find a coating that will seal properly and not affect homologation

OR

2.  Pay everyone some amount of money to get their newly-replaced tanks coated by the dealer with anything they want -- individual owners are not bound by homologation requirements.

OR

3.  Come up with a new formulation of nylon or some other plastic that has the same external properties and does not affect homologation

#1 and #2 are cost effective, #3 is probably cost-prohibitive.

My gut feeling is that the most expensive part of the tank manufacture is the painting.  Spinning up nylon in a rotomold isn't particularly pricey per-tank.  They already have the molds and at this point, it is just a material (nylon) cost. 

The problem for them is that nylon pa6 is EXCELLENT for molding these shapes and painting.  Other forms of plastic such as HDPE that are commonly used for tanks are not easily painted.   HDPE is the standard for car gas tanks now and it simply cannot be painted to the level of finish.  PEX is also used, but it is far more expensive and harder to paint (Cycleworks makes a PEX hi-cap tank and you can read his comments about the paint issues. great material but harder to work with and more expensive than Nylon).



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: mitt on November 29, 2010, 06:06:20 AM
today I realized something, Ducati probably doesn't make our gas tanks themselves.  they likely outsource it to a seperate company.



I hate to break your image of Ducati hand forming parts in a little shop in Bologna, but not only do they not make the gas tanks, I think they buy 100% of their parts from suppliers.  Even their frames are made off site and trucked in.

That is a fact with all motorcycle companies now-a-days.  Very little part fabrication occurs in house anymore, it is all outsourced due to the wide range of parts and expertise required (brakes, fuel systems, suspension, electronics, fasteners, etc.)

mitt


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on November 29, 2010, 06:22:51 AM
I hate to break your image of Ducati hand forming parts in a little shop in Bologna, but not only do they not make the gas tanks, I think they buy 100% of their parts from suppliers.  Even their frames are made off site and trucked in.

That is a fact with all motorcycle companies now-a-days.  Very little part fabrication occurs in house anymore, it is all outsourced due to the wide range of parts and expertise required (brakes, fuel systems, suspension, electronics, fasteners, etc.)

mitt

yeah, it's been that way since about '92-93.  I forget what year.  I know the bevel and pantah frames were weld inhouse.  but even the pantah cases were cast by Empressa (sic?).  Heads come in cast but unfinished, they cut the valves and chambers at the factory.  fairly typical.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Satellite smithy on November 29, 2010, 07:12:29 AM
I think that's not a given.

In order to make a tank that doesn't have this problem they must:

Not what I was saying. I was saying Ducati making a perfect tank right off the bat vs the current multiple tanks and lawsuit(s) would have been cheaper. AKA people never having the problem to begin with would have been cheaper.

Hillbilly was saying this current situation was motivated by greed. I vote it's not.



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: xcaptainxbloodx on November 29, 2010, 10:40:53 AM
I hate to break your image of Ducati hand forming parts in a little shop in Bologna, but not only do they not make the gas tanks, I think they buy 100% of their parts from suppliers.  Even their frames are made off site and trucked in.

That is a fact with all motorcycle companies now-a-days.  Very little part fabrication occurs in house anymore, it is all outsourced due to the wide range of parts and expertise required (brakes, fuel systems, suspension, electronics, fasteners, etc.)

mitt

I know this, but you all miss my point.

 with everyone getting upset at ducati and the pending lawsuits. the buck doesn't stop at ducati.  if our brakes were make the beast with two backsed up would we be upset at ducati or brembo? who would be getting sued then? wouldnt  our energies be better spent fighting against acerbis for a permanent fix while talking to ducati to get our temporary fix?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on November 29, 2010, 11:47:36 AM
I know this, but you all miss my point.

 with everyone getting upset at ducati and the pending lawsuits. the buck doesn't stop at ducati.  if our brakes were make the beast with two backsed up would we be upset at ducati or brembo? who would be getting sued then? wouldnt  our energies be better spent fighting against acerbis for a permanent fix while talking to ducati to get our temporary fix?


The buck does indeed stop with Ducati.

They are the only company you have a contractual or otherwise relationship with as a buyer.  You bought the bike from Ducati and they warranted it. 

No one has any relationship with Acerbis or Brembo regardless that they made the tank and brakes.  They are part and parcel of the bike.



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: fastwin on November 29, 2010, 01:51:07 PM
I still don't get it. Acerbis has been making plastic tanks for years. How could they have make the beast with two backsed up this bad. For Christ sake they are in the plastic tank manufacturing business. Don't they know what goes in their product and the changes in gasoline all over the world? Gas is nowhere close to what it was 10-20 years ago. I think Acerbis is the one living under a rock. What about the other bike companies that they make tanks for? Have they been having the same problems as Ducati? I honestly haven't heard.

I have cheap old plastic 1-5 gallon gas cans at home and at my farm. They are always full of gasoline and I have never ever had any problems with them even with today's shitty ethanol laced gas. How is it my cheap ass old gas cans are fine and the expensive Duc replacement tanks for my S2R1000 and Sport 1000 crap out in a matter of months? My original tanks (I have not had them replaced) have some minor swelling but I think the reason they haven't totally crapped out is because I am a faithful Sta-Bil user and I use the long term storage double dose treatment. I personally think it has helped.

Like I said before, I just don't get it. >:(


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on November 29, 2010, 02:49:27 PM
I still don't get it. Acerbis has been making plastic tanks for years. How could they have make the beast with two backsed up this bad. For Christ sake they are in the plastic tank manufacturing business. Don't they know what goes in their product and the changes in gasoline all over the world? Gas is nowhere close to what it was 10-20 years ago. I think Acerbis is the one living under a rock. What about the other bike companies that they make tanks for? Have they been having the same problems as Ducati? I honestly haven't heard.

Acerbis' primary market has been offroad bikes with tanks made of HDPE.  This nylon material is the first use of its kind that I know of.  Gasoline in Europe currently has 0% or 5% ethanol depending on grade, but MOST places don't use it at all.  France is the only country with 10% ethanol in gasoline and that is very recently.

Acerbis makes nylon tank for MV, Triumph, KTM and others.  Yes, they are now showing up with issues.

Quote
I have cheap old plastic 1-5 gallon gas cans at home and at my farm. They are always full of gasoline and I have never ever had any problems with them even with today's shitty ethanol laced gas. How is it my cheap ass old gas cans are fine and the expensive Duc replacement tanks for my S2R1000 and Sport 1000 crap out in a matter of months? My original tanks (I have not had them replaced) have some minor swelling but I think the reason they haven't totally crapped out is because I am a faithful Sta-Bil user and I use the long term storage double dose treatment. I personally think it has helped.

Like I said before, I just don't get it. >:(

that tank is probably blow molded HDPE.  it's the gold standard for gasoline, but you can't paint it to a finish like a Ducati gas tank.

The under-seat tank on a Hypermotard 1100 is HDPE. 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducpainter on November 29, 2010, 03:57:01 PM
<snip>

that tank is probably blow molded HDPE.  it's the gold standard for gasoline, but you can't paint it to a finish like a Ducati gas tank.

 
Who says?

Get me a blow molded HDPE tank...

I'd love to prove you wrong. ;)

The only issues with painting any plastic is adhesion. There are materials to solve that. Now if the adhesion issues are due to the material 'sweating' fuel, as with PEX, all bets are off.



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on November 29, 2010, 03:58:45 PM
Who says?

Get me a blow molded HDPE tank...

I'd love to prove you wrong. ;)

The only issues with painting any plastic is adhesion. There are materials to solve that. Now if the adhesion issues are due to the material 'sweating' fuel, as with PEX, all bets are off.

what I 'have been told' is that mass producing HDPE tanks to the same aesthetic specification as the current nylon tanks is cost prohibitive and hard to do.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducpainter on November 29, 2010, 04:07:28 PM
what I 'have been told' is that mass producing HDPE tanks to the same aesthetic specification as the current nylon tanks is cost prohibitive and hard to do.
Cost prohibitive?

They've sold you a bill of goods counselor....just sayin'.

While I'm not a manufacturing engineer, I'd know the surface quality of anything molded is better than a weldment. The labor costs of manufacturing/finishing steel tanks is cost prohibitive.

With all the money they saved from not producing steel tanks the added cost would still be cheap.

That's where the cost accountants make enginerds look bad and cause people to believe the company is greedy.

And 'hard to do'? I'm a painter...it isn't hard. It's like anything else... 90% process and 10% talent.

Get me a job with Acerbis...I'll show them how easy it is. ;D


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on November 29, 2010, 05:40:54 PM
Cost prohibitive?

They've sold you a bill of goods counselor....just sayin'.

no, i didn't get that from Ducati, I got it from other sources.

the issue with HDPE tanks is that they expand and contract by design during hot and cold as a function of the material.  Nylon tanks do not expand (except when exposed to water).  They are actually VERY dimensionally stable when heated.  Take an HDPE tank, fill it with gasoline, heat it a little and shake it.  It will begin to deform.  Do the same with a Nylon tank, and it won't.  Obviously, you have venting on both, but we are talking about "worst case scenario." 

HDPE also has other issue with EPA's SHED testing which make it less ideal, but apparently the under-seat tank on the HMT is HDPE (but it's unpainted!)

Quote
While I'm not a manufacturing engineer, I'd know the surface quality of anything molded is better than a weldment. The labor costs of manufacturing/finishing steel tanks is cost prohibitive.

With all the money they saved from not producing steel tanks the added cost would still be cheap.

That's where the cost accountants make enginerds look bad and cause people to believe the company is greedy.

And 'hard to do'? I'm a painter...it isn't hard. It's like anything else... 90% process and 10% talent.

Get me a job with Acerbis...I'll show them how easy it is. ;D



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: fastwin on November 29, 2010, 07:21:33 PM
Really interesting stuff said here. [thumbsup] Reason 1,518 why I love this forum! [clap]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: hillbillypolack on November 29, 2010, 08:46:44 PM
I am going to have to disagree with you on that last point.  As far as I understand, it was Acerbis' responsibility to test the tanks with fuel in Ducati's markets.  That doesn't change who you have to go to for a new tank or satisfaction though, but I would not characterize their actions as "greed driven" especially in light of the fact that they are replacing gas tanks for out-of-warranty bikes and bikes owned by subsequent purchasers (non-original owners).

And that is me, the attorney with my finger on the trigger for a (second) lawsuit against Ducati.

If you look at their actions since this whole thing started, I see a company either fighting with itself or running around with cranio-rectal inversion, but trying to do something positive.

I agree there is some dumb-assery involved given the prevalence of ethanol in gasoline in the USA, and Ducati has the legal responsibility to ensure their tanks are compatible.  But I don't see it as greed. 

Hopefully this/these lawsuit(s) will give them the kick in the ass they need to make public their plans for long term.  They can't replace these tanks forever.



Well, perhaps not 'entirely' greed, but Ducati is holding to part and parcel of the NHTSA law which states that a fuel supply component, when found faulty will be replaced up to 5 years after initial date of purchase.  I believe this is for motorcycles only, (and if I were diligent, I'd find the source of that data, but I believe it's accurate).

Either way, the downside is that the replacement tanks will deform again in NA, given our dicey fuel recipe.  After that, it's buyer beware, because those tanks won't be cheap for the owners to buy.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: herm on November 29, 2010, 10:11:11 PM
ok,.......so 696/1100 style.

internal tank made of whatever is best able to handle the E10 (or other) issues

external skin made of whatever will a)paint well b)stand up to normal wear and tear c)mold to fit as needed.

<going to go wait by the phone for the job offer from DNA...>


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on November 30, 2010, 04:49:47 AM
Well, perhaps not 'entirely' greed, but Ducati is holding to part and parcel of the NHTSA law which states that a fuel supply component, when found faulty will be replaced up to 5 years after initial date of purchase.  I believe this is for motorcycles only, (and if I were diligent, I'd find the source of that data, but I believe it's accurate).

Either way, the downside is that the replacement tanks will deform again in NA, given our dicey fuel recipe.  After that, it's buyer beware, because those tanks won't be cheap for the owners to buy.

Ducati is replacing tanks long after the 5 year/ 18,000 mile warranty is expired.  My bike is an '05 S2R and well over the mileage and it was replaced no questions.

Ducati is also replacing tanks for 2nd purchasers. 

I believe there will be a solution forthcoming, just not overnight.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducpainter on November 30, 2010, 05:03:35 AM
no, i didn't get that from Ducati, I got it from other sources.

the issue with HDPE tanks is that they expand and contract by design during hot and cold as a function of the material.  Nylon tanks do not expand (except when exposed to water).  They are actually VERY dimensionally stable when heated.  Take an HDPE tank, fill it with gasoline, heat it a little and shake it.  It will begin to deform.  Do the same with a Nylon tank, and it won't.  Obviously, you have venting on both, but we are talking about "worst case scenario." 

HDPE also has other issue with EPA's SHED testing which make it less ideal, but apparently the under-seat tank on the HMT is HDPE (but it's unpainted!)


Steel expands and contracts with temperature too. Dimensionally it expands uniformly. Are you saying HDPE expands otherwise?

I understand Ducati's, or any manufacturers reasoning for moving away from steel for tanks. It does seem that with all the talk of aluminum being the replacement on SBKs, also a poor choice IMO for ethanol fuel unless coated, and the failure of the contractor to deliver a serviceable product this whole thing wasn't particularly well thought out.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on November 30, 2010, 07:05:46 AM
Steel expands and contracts with temperature too. Dimensionally it expands uniformly. Are you saying HDPE expands otherwise?

Steel expands and contracts but it is a limited contraction and the rigidity of the material prevents the structure from contracting beyond its original shape except in the presence of immense vacuum.

HDPE can contract beyond the original shape.  That's why you will see a plastic gas can with the sides shrunk in when it gets cold.  That doesn't happen on steel containers.

The way I understand paint is that it can handle limited expansion and stretch, but any significant contraction will cause problems.

Either way, the likelyhood of an HDPE replacement tank coming is unlikely.  I think a coating is more likely, they just have to find one that works for everyone involved.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducpainter on November 30, 2010, 07:18:29 AM
Steel expands and contracts but it is a limited contraction and the rigidity of the material prevents the structure from contracting beyond its original shape except in the presence of immense vacuum.

HDPE can contract beyond the original shape.  That's why you will see a plastic gas can with the sides shrunk in when it gets cold.  That doesn't happen on steel containers.

The way I understand paint is that it can handle limited expansion and stretch, but any significant contraction will cause problems.

Either way, the likelyhood of an HDPE replacement tank coming is unlikely.  I think a coating is more likely, they just have to find one that works for everyone involved.
Are HDPE fuel tanks as thin as gas cans?

Wouldn't the material thickness affect the uncontrolled expansion to some degree?

Paint can have more elasticity than you'd believe. They add a 'flex' additive to paint used on urethane bumpers so they can take deformation without cracking.

That said...it appears to be academic at this point.

I just hope that cool heads prevail on both sides of the suit/s so everyone's best inteest is served.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on November 30, 2010, 08:42:47 AM
Are HDPE fuel tanks as thin as gas cans?

Wouldn't the material thickness affect the uncontrolled expansion to some degree?

Oo!  Oo!! I know this one, Kotter!

A motorcycle gas tank has to be able to pass crash testing.  This is one area where bike tanks differ from cars -- well, the type of testing I mean.

Nylon can go pretty thick and still have an immense amount of flexibility.  HDPE gets stiffer and stiffer as you thicken it.  I am hypothesizing here, but something tells me once HDPE gets thick enough to prevent the expansion/contraction that it doesn't have enough flexibility.

You can hit the nylon tanks with a hammer all day and not only will it not dent, you won't ever break it.  HDPE will shatter.  They have a type of "layered" HDPE but I don't know enough about it.


Quote
Paint can have more elasticity than you'd believe. They add a 'flex' additive to paint used on urethane bumpers so they can take deformation without cracking.

That said...it appears to be academic at this point.

I just hope that cool heads prevail on both sides of the suit/s so everyone's best interest is served.

amen


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: slower than... on November 30, 2010, 04:25:37 PM
..........In order to make a tank that doesn't have this problem they must:

1.  Find a coating that will seal properly and not affect homologation

OR

2.  Pay everyone some amount of money to get their newly-replaced tanks coated by the dealer with anything they want -- individual owners are not bound by homologation requirements.

OR

3.  Come up with a new formulation of nylon or some other plastic that has the same external properties and does not affect homologation.......

I am not sure I totally buy into this homologation argument.  Why can't DP come up with a "high performance" tank, either plastic or metal, as an aftermarket part just as they have with the 1198S?  That 1198S aluminum tank probably did not have to go through this homologation exercise.  Ducati can sell this aftermarket tank for say $1600, and also offer a one time "promotion" where if you trade in your current tank, you get the new one for free.  Sure it is a "wink wink" deal, but wouldn't that solve the problem?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on November 30, 2010, 05:38:11 PM
I am not sure I totally buy into this homologation argument.  Why can't DP come up with a "high performance" tank, either plastic or metal, as an aftermarket part just as they have with the 1198S?  That 1198S aluminum tank probably did not have to go through this homologation exercise.  Ducati can sell this aftermarket tank for say $1600, and also offer a one time "promotion" where if you trade in your current tank, you get the new one for free.  Sure it is a "wink wink" deal, but wouldn't that solve the problem?
Sorry you don't buy it.

You can spend a year doing what I've done and figure it out for yourself.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: slower than... on November 30, 2010, 06:05:16 PM
Sorry you don't buy it.

You can spend a year doing what I've done and figure it out for yourself.

What I meant was, yes, if you were to try to pass on the DP aluminum tank as a replacement tank for the 1198S, you run into this homologation problem.  But if you get the same DP aluminum tank as an aftermarket part, your problem is solved.  Now maybe it is a leap of faith to think Ducati would offer you that aluminum tank for free, just to make the problem go away.  But if that could be done, couldn't it be done for all the models? 

Heck, I'd accept a DP coated tank as a high performance aftermarket option, if it won't expand, and if it were free.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: howie on November 30, 2010, 11:17:32 PM
What I meant was, yes, if you were to try to pass on the DP aluminum tank as a replacement tank for the 1198S, you run into this homologation problem.  But if you get the same DP aluminum tank as an aftermarket part, your problem is solved.  Now maybe it is a leap of faith to think Ducati would offer you that aluminum tank for free, just to make the problem go away.  But if that could be done, couldn't it be done for all the models? 

Heck, I'd accept a DP coated tank as a high performance aftermarket option, if it won't expand, and if it were free.

If Ducati was to manufacture an aluminum tank as a DP part it would be just what you said, an aftermarket part, not an OEM replacement part.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on December 01, 2010, 04:45:48 AM
What I meant was, yes, if you were to try to pass on the DP aluminum tank as a replacement tank for the 1198S, you run into this homologation problem.  But if you get the same DP aluminum tank as an aftermarket part, your problem is solved.  Now maybe it is a leap of faith to think Ducati would offer you that aluminum tank for free, just to make the problem go away.  But if that could be done, couldn't it be done for all the models?  

Heck, I'd accept a DP coated tank as a high performance aftermarket option, if it won't expand, and if it were free.

The aftermarket parts (such as most of the stuff in the DP catalogue) is not homologated and most of it renders the bike illegal for road use.  In practice, this isn't an issue because the cop pulling you over has no idea you have HC pistons and a kevlar gas tank.  But Ducati cannot sell a bike (nor swap under a warranty agreement or settlement) a homologated part with a non-homologated one.

You can pay a dealer to do it, but that is not Ducati doing it, that is the dealer acting as your agent.  

If Ducati was to manufacture an aluminum tank as a DP part it would be just what you said, an aftermarket part, not an OEM replacement part.

this hits the nail on the head:  Ducati cannot swap your factory tank with a non-homologated variety under a repair/settlement swap.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: slower than... on December 01, 2010, 05:50:29 AM
.......this hits the nail on the head:  Ducati cannot swap your factory tank with a non-homologated variety under a repair/settlement swap.

I do understand what you having been saying all along on this Iz.  Like many others, probably yourself included, I am just frustrated that this homologation technicality is making it so difficult to resolve this issue.  I for one would forego the whole "repair/settlement swap" process, if DP were to offer an aftermarket coated tank, at a one time, one per customer deal of $5.  I realize it is a hopeless fantasy, since it doesn't relieve Ducati of any liability, and with this ongoing litigation, they would seek a formal settlement.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: NorDog on December 01, 2010, 06:58:17 AM
Can someone explain why homologation is even an issue with my S4RS?  Is there a Monster racing series somewhere?  If so, couldn't Ducati use non-homologation approved REPLACEMENT tanks in markets that don't have that series?  The S4RS isn't even a current model, so it would seem that if a series did exist, all the bikes have already met the requriements with the factory tanks delivered on factory bikes.  A one time rrecall type replacement on a non-current model should not be an homologation issue for a racing series I'm not even sure exists.

Is there even such a Monster racing series in the USA?

Even so, it would seem Ducati should be more concerned about public safety, not to mention the good will of their street riding market, than they are about racing (and don't even get me started on the flaming voltage regulators and engines that won't even run at anything under 2000 rpm).

What brings in more revenue, street bikes or racing?

Seems that Ducati needs to bite the bullet and fix this thing.

I don't get it, but then, I don't follow racing either.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on December 01, 2010, 07:04:45 AM
Probably "certification" is a better word.  US DOT/NHTSA for crash profile and SHED testing with EPA.

EU has similar bodies. 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Mhanis on December 01, 2010, 08:10:16 AM
ok,.......so 696/1100 style.

internal tank made of whatever is best able to handle the E10 (or other) issues

external skin made of whatever will a)paint well b)stand up to normal wear and tear c)mold to fit as needed.

<going to go wait by the phone for the job offer from DNA...>

Is this a question or a statement of fact? As an 1100 owner I have thought of this exact same thing; did Ducati "fix" the problem on the newer Monsters by using the above as a solution?




Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on December 01, 2010, 08:29:27 AM
Is this a question or a statement of fact? As an 1100 owner I have thought of this exact same thing; did Ducati "fix" the problem on the newer Monsters by using the above as a solution?




I have 696 owners on my list.

Open the tank and look underneath.  If you see a "recycle" triangle that has "PA6" in the middle, then no.  If you see anything else, please let us know.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: DucNaked on December 01, 2010, 10:11:50 AM
I have 696 owners on my list.

Open the tank and look underneath.  If you see a "recycle" triangle that has "PA6" in the middle, then no.  If you see anything else, please let us know.

This is what's on the underside of my m1100 tank


(http://i885.photobucket.com/albums/ac51/rllout/skins/skins006.jpg)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on December 01, 2010, 10:14:16 AM
This is what's on the underside of my m1100 tank


(http://i885.photobucket.com/albums/ac51/rllout/skins/skins006.jpg)

that's it "PA" is the same as PA6. 

wow.  I haven't seen that "USA" stamp before now, I am going to ask some of my friends in Europe what they have.

thanks for the pic



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: duccarlos on December 01, 2010, 11:06:11 AM
So if they used something other than PA6, we would not see this issue?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on December 01, 2010, 11:08:17 AM
So if they used something other than PA6, we would not see this issue?

I can't say for sure.  PA6 can be treated or coated which eliminates the problem as well, which is why people have success with the Caswell product.

Other polymer materials have similar issues, so "IT DEPENDS" is the right answer.

Hypothetically, they could use the same tanks with a coating and everything is good to go. 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: sbrguy on December 01, 2010, 11:30:49 AM
anyone use this stuff?

http://www.primrose.com/content/view/156/31/ (http://www.primrose.com/content/view/156/31/)

sounds pretty cool wondring if it will work when put into that separated fuel coke bottle that the one poster put up.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: CDawg on December 01, 2010, 04:00:11 PM
Sounds similar to Stabil to me...


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: herm on December 01, 2010, 04:27:58 PM
Is this a question or a statement of fact? As an 1100 owner I have thought of this exact same thing; did Ducati "fix" the problem on the newer Monsters by using the above as a solution?




it was a question/suggestions.

however, as has been stated already, a non homologated tank is really not one of our options. but it sounds like a good idea for future tanks..


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: jgrm1 on December 01, 2010, 06:48:59 PM
How about Ducati coming up with a retrofit that would allow them to replace our plastic tanks with the previously used steel tanks?  It seems to me that would be a relatively easy permanant fix.  Wouldn't the previous steel tanks already have all the necessary certifications?

-Jeff


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: sbrguy on December 01, 2010, 07:02:07 PM
but very expensive to make.

ithink the older metal tanks if you had to replace them new were something like 1800$ from a ducati dealer in the US.

best bet would be for the older monster plastic tank owneres to look for someone selling the metal tanks in good condition and then refurbish them and such and put them on, but like someone else said when you are done with getting all the parts to make it work it could work out to be around 1k-1.5k dollars to have it right.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: jgrm1 on December 01, 2010, 07:03:52 PM
Sure, but look at the MSRP for our plastic tanks.  The metal tanks were used in production for years, so the cost to Ducati could not be that prohibitive.

-Jeff


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducpainter on December 02, 2010, 03:35:35 AM
Sure, but look at the MSRP for our plastic tanks.  The metal tanks were used in production for years, so the cost to Ducati could not be that prohibitive.

-Jeff
The tooling for the steel tanks wouldn't add to the cost as it already exists...maybe.

The labor for a steel tank is what promoted the switch.



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on December 02, 2010, 05:12:09 AM
There will be no metal tank to replace the deformed tanks.  It will either be another plastic material or the same tank with a coating.

I would love to stop having to type this.




Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducpainter on December 02, 2010, 05:17:20 AM
There will be no metal tank to replace the deformed tanks.  It will either be another plastic material or the same tank with a coating.

I would love to stop having to type this.



Maybe if you typed s l o w e r.  ;D


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Mojo S2R on December 02, 2010, 09:26:45 AM
There will be no metal tank to replace the deformed tanks.  It will either be another plastic material or the same tank with a coating.
 ;D

And for those who are wondering, Steel and Aluminum are both metal.  And - Yes, it will probably be a coating similar to the Caswell stuff (and others) mentioned throughout the thread.

 [thumbsup]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: duccarlos on December 02, 2010, 10:24:40 AM
I suggest going back to the metal tank. Woops, I guess you didn't type it slow enough.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: AMGnDuc on December 02, 2010, 11:27:11 AM
Just got authorization from DNA that my tank will be replaced.  Pretty easy process overall.  My dealer was great, took some photos and no hassles.

I just hope that the new tank fixes the issue.  It would suck majorly if it happened again.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: NorDog on December 02, 2010, 11:38:20 AM
Just got authorization from DNA that my tank will be replaced.  Pretty easy process overall.  My dealer was great, took some photos and no hassles.

I just hope that the new tank fixes the issue.  It would suck majorly if it happened again.

Good luck with that.

I'm waiting for my third tank to arrive at the dealer.

I just don't understand why they don't use a metal tank.  Something like steel, or aluminum maybe.  I don't know, maybe it's just me.   [cheeky]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: arai_speed on December 02, 2010, 11:47:02 AM

I just hope that the new tank fixes the issue.  It would suck majorly if it happened again.

How exactly is a new tank, made the same way and with the same material going to fix the issue?

Unless you mean "fix the issue" TEMPORARILY...then YES...it will "fix" the issue :)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: jgrm1 on December 02, 2010, 01:47:41 PM
There will be no metal tank to replace the deformed tanks.  It will either be another plastic material or the same tank with a coating.

I would love to stop having to type this.

Then stop typing it.  I gave up sifting through this thread around page 60 in favor of keeping an eye on the concise update thread and did not see anything there about no metal replacements.

-Jeff


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on December 02, 2010, 01:48:59 PM
Then stop typing it.  I gave up sifting through this thread around page 60 in favor of keeping an eye on the concise update thread and did not see anything there about no metal replacements.

-Jeff

thanks for the reality check, jeff.  i'll update the other thread.. [thumbsup]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Bill in OKC on December 02, 2010, 02:45:27 PM
http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/acms/docservlet/Artemis/Public/Pursuits/2010/PE/INOA-PE10045-8595.PDF (http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/acms/docservlet/Artemis/Public/Pursuits/2010/PE/INOA-PE10045-8595.PDF)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Meerkat on December 02, 2010, 03:19:51 PM
http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/acms/docservlet/Artemis/Public/Pursuits/2010/PE/INOA-PE10045-8595.PDF (http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/acms/docservlet/Artemis/Public/Pursuits/2010/PE/INOA-PE10045-8595.PDF)

Well, isn't that interesting! An investigation into deforming/leaking tanks after 4 years of complaints. Who'd a thunk NHTSA was so fast.

/snark


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: DucNaked on December 02, 2010, 03:25:42 PM
Well, isn't that interesting! An investigation into deforming/leaking tanks after 4 years of complaints. Who'd a thunk NHTSA was so fast.

/snark
But just in time for the lawsuit. Hmmmmmmmmmm......


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on December 02, 2010, 03:34:25 PM
There were 5 complaints 4 years ago.  Nhtsa will wait until there are enough complaints when no one has been injured.

I've had 2 meetings with them over the last 9 months.

But just in time for the lawsuit. Hmmmmmmmmmm......

ODI opened the investigation on 11/04, Girard Gibbs filed on 11/18.  I don't think it was in time for the lawsuit, perhaps the lawsuit was in time for the investigation...


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducpainter on December 02, 2010, 04:13:53 PM
One thing for certain...

all the players are lawyers.

Coincidence?  [evil]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on December 02, 2010, 04:37:57 PM
One thing for certain...

all the players are lawyers.

Coincidence?  [evil]

well, we were all fresh out of crank old fusspots.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: DRKWNG on December 02, 2010, 04:43:40 PM
well, we were all fresh out of crank old fusspots.

  [laugh] [clap] [laugh] [clap] [laugh] [clap] [laugh] [clap]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducpainter on December 02, 2010, 05:51:48 PM
well, we were all fresh out of crank old fusspots.
I doubt that...

I'm only one of millions.

You're just pissed that you can't dispute Arlo's theory. :-*

  [laugh] [clap] [laugh] [clap] [laugh] [clap] [laugh] [clap]
I used to like you.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: DRKWNG on December 02, 2010, 05:56:21 PM
I used to like you.

No you didn't. 

  :-*


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: jgrm1 on December 02, 2010, 06:02:19 PM
thanks for the reality check, jeff.  i'll update the other thread.. [thumbsup]

We appreciate what you do.

-Jeff


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: GAAN on December 03, 2010, 01:15:31 AM
seems to me that the solution is simple

fuel tank has just become a consumable maintenance item

just like hoses, brakes, tires, and valve adjustments

you can either drain it after each ride as part of your daily routine and extend the life of it

or

let it swell up and get a new tank with new paint every couple of years

for free

seems like a damn nice service plan at no cost to me


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: WetDuc on December 03, 2010, 06:24:44 AM
Yea, a service plan that ends after 5 years.  I'd like to hope my monster will last me longer than 5 years.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: GAAN on December 03, 2010, 07:39:29 AM
Yea, a service plan that ends after 5 years.  I'd like to hope my monster will last me longer than 5 years.

after 5 years (assuming its actually ridden) replacing a tank is a drop in the bucket compared to the list of shit that needs to be repaired and replaced



The thing that I don't understand is the shit metal tanks that dented when you looked at them wrong, imploded when a hose got plugged, and leaked at the hinge never got this kind of attention.

I say ride the things, get your tanks replaced on Ducati's dime until they finally say no (and enjoy the fresh paint)

then buy an aftermarket replacement when the deal goes south

a few grand for an aftermarket tank option is nickles in comparison to the money people spend on Mods





Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: duccarlos on December 03, 2010, 08:29:18 AM
Yea, a service plan that ends after 5 years.  I'd like to hope my monster will last me longer than 5 years.

Ducati has been replacing the tanks even after the 5th year expiration.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on December 03, 2010, 09:01:58 AM
Ducati has been replacing the tanks even after the 5th year expiration.

bear in mind it is 5 years OR 18,600 MILES


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: sbrguy on December 03, 2010, 09:10:22 AM
oh that is the catch with the 5 year or 18.6k miles. 

ouch.

got a question does anyonw know of any custom motorcycle tank makers that will make a custom metal tank that is a copy of the OEM tank?

beside the beater brand in japan, that does alum, are there any good tank makers that can do the same thing in the US?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on December 03, 2010, 09:15:06 AM
not for cheap.

Ducati is replacing tanks outside of the 5yr/18k warranty.  NQA.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: NorDog on December 03, 2010, 11:51:46 AM
not for cheap.

Ducati is replacing tanks outside of the 5yr/18k warranty.  NQA.

Hadn't heard that before, but it's good to hear as long as it lasts.

[stupid question time]

What is NQA?

[/stupid question time]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: DucNaked on December 03, 2010, 12:00:27 PM
Hadn't heard that before, but it's good to hear as long as it lasts.

[stupid question time]

What is NQA?

[/stupid question time]
No Questions Asked


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Bladecutter on December 03, 2010, 12:21:52 PM
I thought he meant:

Now Quit Asking!

BC.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on December 03, 2010, 12:40:50 PM
Hadn't heard that before, but it's good to hear as long as it lasts.

[stupid question time]

What is NQA?

[/stupid question time]

yes, No Questions Asked.

They are also replacing tanks for non-original owners. 

They are trying, even if not perfectly.



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: AMGnDuc on December 03, 2010, 01:23:46 PM
How exactly is a new tank, made the same way and with the same material going to fix the issue?

Unless you mean "fix the issue" TEMPORARILY...then YES...it will "fix" the issue :)

Two separate dealers told me that the new tanks coming in look noticeably different inside, so they think Ducati is doing something new to them.  Who knows, it is what it is.  It'll fix the problem temporarily at least.  ;D


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on December 03, 2010, 02:04:37 PM
New tanks are clean and look different.  Off white.  They probably are comparing new and old.  Current replacement tanks are the same material.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: NorDog on December 03, 2010, 02:13:36 PM
I thought he meant:

Now Quit Asking!

BC.


 [laugh]

I should have known, I get that alot.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: duccarlos on December 03, 2010, 03:23:02 PM
I just read your update on the main thread. I would say that Acerbis has to get their head right since they provide tanks for just about every European manufacturer.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on December 03, 2010, 03:45:24 PM
I just read your update on the main thread. I would say that Acerbis has to get their head right since they provide tanks for just about every European manufacturer.

Yes and no.  Ducati owes you a good tank, not Acerbis.  They are just Ducati's supplier.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: duccarlos on December 03, 2010, 03:55:55 PM
I understand that, but once Europe goes E10, they will see this issue across all the manufacturers that outsource to Acerbis. It is in all their best interest to make sure Acerbis provides a viable tank for future use or face the possibility that the manufacturers will have to look elsewhere.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: hillbillypolack on December 05, 2010, 11:38:18 AM
Received this earlier this week as an update from the legal office:

"Dear Ducati Owners,

Thank you for contacting Girard Gibbs about your Ducati and the plastic fuel tank problems. *Over the last several weeks, we have spoken to a number of Ducati owners with degraded and deformed fuel tanks. *We greatly appreciate all the feedback we have received, which has helped us to better understand the problem and how Ducati has dealt with it. *While we are still in the process of individually contacting some of the people who have written to our firm, we wanted to take this opportunity to update everyone on the progress of our efforts to obtain a solution.

In October, we formally notified Ducati that it had violated warranty and consumer protection laws and requested that it cure those violations by notifying its customers of the defect and providing them with replacement fuel tanks that do not degrade and deform in the presence of the motorcycle’s fuel. Ducati has declined our request and we have now initiated a class action on behalf of all Ducati owners with plastic fuel tanks, seeking the same relief.

We want to stress that the goal of this lawsuit is not to punish Ducati or put them out of business, but rather to get Ducati to acknowledge and address the existence of what we believe is a problem with the material used in its fuel tanks.  Instead of replacing deformed fuel tanks with tanks that use the same material, we believe that Ducati is required to correct the underlying problem by installing replacement fuel tanks that do not degrade or deform when in contact with fuel.  Ultimately, we hope to convince Ducati that such a problem exists and that the resolution we seek is warranted.

If you have any questions about the lawsuit, please feel free to contact Dylan or Samantha by responding to this email or calling our toll-free number (866) 981-4800. *Information about the status of the case is also available at www.GirardGibbs.com/Ducati.asp (http://), and we will be providing periodic email updates after significant developments in the case."

Girard Gibbs LLP
601 California Street, Suite 1400
San Francisco, CA 94108
Phone; (415) 981-4800
Fax: (415) 981-4846
www.girardgibbs.com (http://)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducpainter on December 05, 2010, 11:51:56 AM
Maybe Mr. Gibbs can shit you a tank that meets all the federal requirements.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: muskrat on December 06, 2010, 07:04:06 AM
81 pages of the same crap.  This is simple really.  The capacity and knowledge is there to fix the problem once and for all and move forward.  I'll bet they will continue to replace the defective tanks with ones they have already stored for "just in case I crash" repairs. 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on December 06, 2010, 07:25:07 AM
81 pages of the same crap.  This is simple really.  The capacity and knowledge is there to fix the problem once and for all and move forward.  I'll bet they will continue to replace the defective tanks with ones they have already stored for "just in case I crash" repairs. 

I've been working on this for over 18 months now and I don't see it that way -- and it does nothing but cost me time from my work.

The problems are multiple.

The tanks have to meet crash/safety laws.
The tanks have to pass SHED/emissions regs.
They have to be paintable in such a way to be cost effective and meet the aesthetic needs of a primary visible component of a bike.
The tanks have to function well with crappy ethanol gasoline.
Moreover, given how small Ducati is, they likely have to be able to be modified simply to comply with EU rules for all of the above as well -- Ducati used the same items with small variations on all their bikes.  the only difference I have seen from an EU vs a USA gas tank is the vent line for the CARB canister requirements. 

If it was as simple as you believe, it would have already been done.  Trust me, I know.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Raux on December 06, 2010, 07:48:25 AM
but now you've seen two types of material.
What do you think that means for the future?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on December 06, 2010, 09:03:25 AM
On two totally diff models.  I don't think xlpe tanks can work on the older bikes ie multi and s2r.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Raux on December 06, 2010, 09:11:42 AM
DP, do you know if the XLPE tanks are paintable?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: wantingaduc on December 06, 2010, 09:23:48 AM
I have a 2006 620 Monster, the cheapest bike you could buy back in the day. It has 6700 miles on it, is garage kept and is in perfect shape. I only use 93 octane gas from Shell. I take care of the bike as well if not better then most owners. I had my first swollen tank replaced about 14 months ago. Fortunately my dealership was cool about taking care of it. Now my replacement tank is doing the same thing. I contacted the dealership, “just bring the bike to us, we’ll take the pictures and contact Ducati, no problem.”
Is it a pain in the ass, yes. Should it still be happening, no. Is Ducati working to solve the problem, yes. But all things considered as long as they are standing behind the problem in all cases no matter of the warranty period or mileage or what not and they take care of it until the problem is solved, I’m cool with that. Shit happens. Remember guys, it’s a motorcycle; few of us are using them as a primary form of transportation. I don’t remember anyone saying that their tank suddenly started leaking fuel and caught fire burning their jewels and destroying the bike. It’s primarily a cosmetic problem. If we take this in perspective it’s not too bad is it.
I’m sure Ducati is rolling in Euros from all the product they sell here in the states, why don’t they just send us all carbon fiber replacement tanks. They can afford it why don’t we sue them to make them do what we want. Man I can’t stand that sentiment. And now they file a class action law suit? All the damn law suit does is makes it harder for companies in this country to do business. They are standing behind the product, why break their corporate balls on this.
I love my Duc, swollen tank and all and I would buy another one in a heart beat.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: silversled on December 06, 2010, 05:20:55 PM
I don’t remember anyone saying that their tank suddenly started leaking fuel and caught fire burning their jewels and destroying the bike. It’s primarily a cosmetic problem.

Funny, my garage smells like gas as my fuel goes drip drip drip onto my exhaust, engine case and the floor. 

The fuel tank flange has deformed and pulled away from the fuel pump.



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducpainter on December 06, 2010, 05:33:28 PM
DP, do you know if the XLPE tanks are paintable?
Not specifically.

I've painted polyethylene, but IIRC it was an interior part and was with a vinyl based interior paint.

My experience has been that with an adhesion promoter most plastics can be painted, and with excellent appearance.

In the earlier days of automotive plastics we painted PP, which is about a step and a half above crude oil, and we finally got adhesion promoters that would work.

PEX or XLPE is not a particularly dirty plastic.

I'll grab a piece of tubing tomorrow and try it.

Remind me. ;)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: trpletme on December 06, 2010, 05:58:05 PM
"why don’t they just send us all carbon fiber replacement tanks."

The same thing will happen to the CF tanks.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on December 06, 2010, 06:08:18 PM
I don’t remember anyone saying that their tank suddenly started leaking fuel and caught fire burning their jewels and destroying the bike. It’s primarily a cosmetic problem. If we take this in perspective it’s not too bad is it.

The deformation eventually leads to a leaking tank:

http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/acms/docservlet/Artemis/Public/Pursuits/2010/PE/INOA-PE10045-8595.PDF (http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/acms/docservlet/Artemis/Public/Pursuits/2010/PE/INOA-PE10045-8595.PDF)
Quote
Ducati is using a composite material in constructing fuel tanks on some motorcycle models. In some instances (the Sport Classic series, for example) the tank simply deforms but does not leak. However, leaks have been alleged in the subject fuel tanks when tank deformation compromises the o-ring seal between the tank and fuel pump. Some owners report a pooling of fuel below the bike and/or on the engine when this occurs.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: corey on December 06, 2010, 07:35:12 PM
I've been monitoring this whole thing, and am signed up on the list... my tank has definitely expanded, although definitely not to the severity of some others here. when i mentioned it to my dealer, they were hesitant to help me out as they had not heard anything yet. i didn't press the issue at that time, because my expansion was so minor...

my questions is, now that the NHTSA is involved, is there a possibility of a an actual recall in the near future??


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Bill in OKC on December 06, 2010, 07:55:36 PM
My biggest concern is that this is an "investigation" and gubmint investigations often fail to discover any problems.  Witness the recent approval of e15 by the epa after studies showed "no problems".  In a clean laboratory setting with controlled conditions e10 might remain pure e10 with no water contamination to cause the problem.   


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Raux on December 06, 2010, 10:07:31 PM
Funny, my garage smells like gas as my fuel goes drip drip drip onto my exhaust, engine case and the floor. 

The fuel tank flange has deformed and pulled away from the fuel pump.


My opinion on yours is a heat situation not fuel.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: hillbillypolack on December 07, 2010, 04:07:59 AM

I love my Duc, swollen tank and all and I would buy another one in a heart beat.


I wish I could share that naievte. This is definitely my last Duc. Not from the tank issue specifically. But from requiring all the bits to make it ridable. Other bikes at similar price points don't require as much BS. Though I don't believe they are immune to tank deformation either.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on December 07, 2010, 04:24:12 AM
That's your choice, I've owned plenty of bikes each with its own issues.  I liked them all but I've only loved my Ducatis.  Ducati riders in general are more educated, knowledgeable about riding and more worldly. 

How many Suzuki or Honda riders go out of their way to visit the factory?  Its just a difference that matters to me.  I enjoy almost anything on 2 wheels but Ducatis always give me something more.

Quirky tho they may be.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ungeheuer on December 07, 2010, 04:38:37 AM
That's your choice, I've owned plenty of bikes each with its own issues.  I liked them all but I've only loved my Ducatis....  I enjoy almost anything on 2 wheels but Ducatis always give me something more.

Quirky tho they may be.
+1

but now you've seen two types of material. What do you think that means for the future?
On two totally diff models.
I'm confused.  Ducati is using a different material for M1100 fuel tanks in the USA than in some other markets.  Same model, same model year, different material.

My 09 M1100 fuel tank (non-US market)... made from XLPE (cross-linked polyethylene).
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5164/5231282174_54859a792e_b.jpg)

09 M1100 fuel tank (USA type)... made from PA (polyamide; aka nylon)
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5004/5231285374_c230a82dcd_b.jpg)

I'm now very curious to learn why Ducati manufactures the same fuel cell using different materials depending on the market destination.



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on December 07, 2010, 05:04:06 AM
I'm now very curious to learn why Ducati manufactures the same fuel cell using different materials depending on the market destination.

It has to be some legal reason.  My guess is that the US version has to be CARB (california) compliant.  It's a long explanation why we have two sets of emissions laws in the USA (Federal EPA and California ARB) but Cali is a huge market for bikes and no importer would ship bikes here without being Cali compliant.

That's why US bikes have the vapor emissions (charcoal) canister on them -- and the fuel tank must work with it.

Likewise, there may be some additional crash requirements which necessitate the nylon tank.  I know for a fact that all PE's (HDPE, XLPE) are less shatter resistant than nylon (which bounces).

...but this is all beer pub speculation.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: howie on December 07, 2010, 05:22:33 AM
As I remember, the first generation Monster Dark tanks were plastic in Europe and metal in the US because they would not pass the shed test.  If I remember correctly, those tanks were also color impregnated, not painted.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on December 07, 2010, 06:07:12 AM
Got a link?  or know anyone who has one? 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: muskrat on December 07, 2010, 06:29:40 AM
I've been working on this for over 18 months now and I don't see it that way -- and it does nothing but cost me time from my work.

The problems are multiple.

If it was as simple as you believe, it would have already been done.  Trust me, I know.

Sarcasm rarely works on the web.  [bang]
My purpose wasn't to make it seem simple, I know there's way more involved and most of it over my head.  I just hope this gets resolved quickly for everyone's sake.  Ducati can't afford another PR nightmare.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: duccarlos on December 07, 2010, 07:37:29 AM
Ducati can't afford another PR nightmare.

Another? When was the last time they had a PR nightmare? It seems that they've been riding pretty high for at least the past 5 years.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: wantingaduc on December 07, 2010, 11:07:37 AM
I don’t remember anyone saying that their tank suddenly started leaking fuel  and caught fire burning their jewels and destroying the bike.

Yeah I know they can leak, it's just that you'll have plenty of time to know that it's comming and have your local dealer address the issue before then. It's not a safety issue unless you ignore it alltogether.


I wish I could share that naievte. This is definitely my last Duc. Not from the tank issue specifically. But from requiring all the bits to make it ridable. Other bikes at similar price points don't require as much BS. Though I don't believe they are immune to tank deformation either.
 
I think anyone who buys a Ducati should go into the purchase with open eyes. As far as needing bits to make it "ridable" I would venture a guess that most bits are to taylor it to you. I dont know of a single brand or model of bike that anyone feels is perfect right off the showroom floor.
Yes they are more expensive to own and maintain, and you get something special for that time and effort and money. If I look at an Acura NSX and A Ferrari 360 in those terms the Acura wins every time. But in the end which one would you rather have in your garage to drive?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: arai_speed on December 07, 2010, 11:35:51 AM
Just heard from my dealer that my 3rd tank was ordered.  No ETA on delivery....my last pearl white tank took about 2 1/2 months to be delivered.

I'm gonna casswell this one and call it a day.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: DRKWNG on December 07, 2010, 01:37:40 PM
But from requiring all the bits to make it ridable. Other bikes at similar price points don't require as much BS.

Actually, this is incorrect.  Pretty much any high-performance big bore V-twin has the same issues with wonky fuel mapping and super lean conditions.  Talk to any of the KTM or Buell (with the rotax motor) riders.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Meerkat on December 07, 2010, 03:05:25 PM
07 S2R1K silver with black stripe warranty tank replacement

10-08-10: First trip to Coleman's for pictures and paperwork to submit warranty claim. Told I would have to leave bike or deposit once warranty work was approved.
11-11-10: Notified by Coleman's that warranty replacement was approved and tank ordered. Updated that I wouldn't need to leave bike or deposit, but requested to bring bike in within 2 weeks after tank arrives.
12-04-10: Coleman's called to let me know that tank had arrived.
12-07-10: Dropped off bike to have the tank replaced. Supposed to be ready for pickup tomorrow.

Better than the Spring tank arrival predicted by Coleman's service department. Let the second swelling begin! [moto]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: lilmonster on December 07, 2010, 04:59:43 PM
I may have found another coating that can be used. It is a 1 part coating. Just open the can and pour it in after the prep is done. I have used this on a metal tank and it is holding up well. The info on the site says it can be used on plastic and fiberglass tanks. Please someone check it out and tell us what you think.  http://www.bluelightningproducts.com/product/FTLPT/FUEL-TANK-LINER.html (http://www.bluelightningproducts.com/product/FTLPT/FUEL-TANK-LINER.html)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: muskrat on December 07, 2010, 06:51:24 PM
Another? When was the last time they had a PR nightmare? It seems that they've been riding pretty high for at least the past 5 years.

how about before TPG stepped in?  Financial ruin among other things.  A small boutique manufacturer cannot afford problems of this magnitude. 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on December 07, 2010, 06:57:59 PM
I may have found another coating that can be used. It is a 1 part coating. Just open the can and pour it in after the prep is done. I have used this on a metal tank and it is holding up well. The info on the site says it can be used on plastic and fiberglass tanks. Please someone check it out and tell us what you think.  http://www.bluelightningproducts.com/product/FTLPT/FUEL-TANK-LINER.html (http://www.bluelightningproducts.com/product/FTLPT/FUEL-TANK-LINER.html)

amazing that i've been coating tanks for years and never heard of the stuff.  "plastic" is too generic a term, i need to know it adheres to nylon specifically.  plenty of other plastic / polymer materials around.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: lilmonster on December 07, 2010, 07:16:01 PM
I have a can of the stuff with the phone # of the mfg. 1-800-880-4461. If someone with more knowledge on the subject will research it to find out if it will work on Nylon. If it does, I think I may try it when I get another new tank. I paid about $30 for a qt. last year at a local shop.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on December 07, 2010, 07:25:02 PM
I have a can of the stuff with the phone # of the mfg. 1-800-880-4461. If someone with more knowledge on the subject will research it to find out if it will work on Nylon. If it does, I think I may try it when I get another new tank. I paid about $30 for a qt. last year at a local shop.

i've poked around and can't find anything -- nylon isn't like PE or fibreglass.  it's slippery.  also, it needs to be impervious to ethanol.  the old kreme forumulation used polyurethane which is great with gasoline, but .. not so great with ethanol.. it also dried "flexible" like the blue lightning claims to do..   that's the only 1-part stuff i know of..  all the 2-part stuff dries semi-hard but is impervious to ethanol once dried.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: lilmonster on December 07, 2010, 07:39:08 PM
I have used it the one time. It seems to be holding up on a metal tank with holes. This stuff plugged the leaks and has been in use for about a year with Ethenol in the tank. It was easy to work around the tank, not too thick and can drain out excess easily. I will try to call them to get info on use with Nylon.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: howie on December 07, 2010, 09:31:30 PM
Got a link?  or know anyone who has one?  

I do remember there were plastic dark carbie tanks in Europe.  All of Europe?  Anywhere else?  Dunno.  When I inquired about a plastic tank for mine I was told it would have to be ordered from Europe and would need different hardware.  If I remember correctly, I asked Bruce Meyers why the US  didn't get the plastic tanks and he said they failed CA emissions.  


I didn't know there were early plastic FI tanks, but I did a Google and found this from the old board.  I didn't link it so people don't need to go there.

Quote
utzelu
Senior Member

 
utzelu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 132
   
Default Re: 620 IE Fuel filter change.
It does cover the FI models, but I've just now realized that the US version of 2002 620ie Dark has metal tank, while the European version (and mine) has plastic tank. The changing procedures is different between the two.
__________________
Regards,<br />utzelu

Sorry I can't do better since I realize you are looking for something you can hang you hat on, but maybe someone from the other side of the pond can help.  I wonder is stopintime could find out what material his tank is made of.  Maybe the non EPA pay your own way more permanent cure is a Euro tank.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Meerkat on December 07, 2010, 09:36:12 PM
i've poked around and can't find anything -- nylon isn't like PE or fibreglass.  it's slippery.  also, it needs to be impervious to ethanol.  the old kreme forumulation used polyurethane which is great with gasoline, but .. not so great with ethanol.. it also dried "flexible" like the blue lightning claims to do..   that's the only 1-part stuff i know of..  all the 2-part stuff dries semi-hard but is impervious to ethanol once dried.

I emailed the blue lightening people for an MSDS which I hope sheds some light on this stuff's composition. We'll see if they respond.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Triple J on December 08, 2010, 02:53:47 PM
Who says?

Get me a blow molded HDPE tank...

I'd love to prove you wrong. ;)

The only issues with painting any plastic is adhesion. There are materials to solve that. Now if the adhesion issues are due to the material 'sweating' fuel, as with PEX, all bets are off.



I didn't see the correct answer back when this was posted, so... (sorry if I missed it):

...the issue with HDPE is that it off-gases. This is why they can't be painted...and why Chris Kelley's HDPE tanks aren't painted. Maybe he'll lend you one to try though?  :)

HDPE also expands A LOT more than any metal, up to 10-15 times as much. Wall thickness does not have an effect at mitigating this...at least not for any reasonable thickness applicable to a gas tank. I don't know if it's enough to fail paint, as I don't know how flexible paint is, but I would guess it is.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducpainter on December 08, 2010, 05:41:52 PM
I didn't see the correct answer back when this was posted, so... (sorry if I missed it):

...the issue with HDPE is that it off-gases. This is why they can't be painted...and why Chris Kelley's HDPE tanks aren't painted. Maybe he'll lend you one to try though?  :)

HDPE also expands A LOT more than any metal, up to 10-15 times as much. Wall thickness does not have an effect at mitigating this...at least not for any reasonable thickness applicable to a gas tank. I don't know if it's enough to fail paint, as I don't know how flexible paint is, but I would guess it is.
I think the expansion would be a non issue. Urethanes are pretty flexible.

Chris asked me if I wanted to try painting one. After listening to his explanation I figured why bother.

I for one will never own a gas tank that off gasses fuel...seems so wrong.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: SacDuc on December 08, 2010, 08:47:15 PM

For what its worth, I was chatting with the local dealer the other day and he mentioned that he has only done 3 tank replacements. He sells 150-200 bikes per year. He blamed the expansion problems on two things, ethanol and the emissions canister. He credited his low replacement rate to that fact that he makes a habit of ripping off all that emissions shit before his bikes ever leave the store.  :D

sac


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: booger on December 08, 2010, 08:59:06 PM
For what its worth, I was chatting with the local dealer...he makes a habit of ripping off all that emissions shit before his bikes ever leave the store.  :D

sac

Isn't that patently illegal, for a dealer to do such things? As in like a federal offense or something? Seems like the EPA could have his ass for that.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Mojo S2R on December 08, 2010, 10:58:08 PM
For what its worth, I was chatting with the local dealer the other day and he mentioned that he has only done 3 tank replacements. He sells 150-200 bikes per year. He blamed the expansion problems on two things, ethanol and the emissions canister. He credited his low replacement rate to that fact that he makes a habit of ripping off all that emissions shit before his bikes ever leave the store.  :D

sac

I think there may be something to the charcoal canister emissions crap being part of the cause.  I have yet to replace my tank and have had the bike since new back in December of 2007 and ditching the canister and it's connecting hoses was one of my first mods.  I also have the DP Tank Bra which may be preventing any side-ward expansion but I have noticed very slight forward expansion as it's been getting to be a little tighter fit for the tank lock up by the ignition.  I don't think it's enough to get a replacement just yet.  If and when I do, I definitely plan on getting it lined with Caswell or some other such product just to avoid having to deal with it again.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: myleslong on December 09, 2010, 03:14:21 AM
My 07 S4RS has had the canister removed since day 1. My second replacement tank has just arrived. My opinion, based on my personal experience is that the canister has 0 effect on the expansion problem...It's ethanol incompatability, period.
I will coat the new tank with Caswells before it ever has gas in it and update this thread with my feedback on how it goes. Unless I've missed somthing in the last 84 pages, no one has actually performed this process themselves.
Best regards,
Myleslong


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on December 09, 2010, 04:02:03 AM
Isn't that patently illegal, for a dealer to do such things? As in like a federal offense or something? Seems like the EPA could have his ass for that.

The vapor emissions canister is required in California and the CARB states.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on December 09, 2010, 04:03:21 AM
My 07 S4RS has had the canister removed since day 1. My second replacement tank has just arrived. My opinion, based on my personal experience is that the canister has 0 effect on the expansion problem

I agree.  the vapor canister doesn't impede pressure releasing, on the contrary, it actually provides a "trouble-free" exit

Quote
...It's ethanol incompatability, period.

ethanol AND water.



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: howie on December 09, 2010, 04:32:26 AM
I agree.  the vapor canister doesn't impede pressure releasing, on the contrary, it actually provides a "trouble-free" exit

<snip>

Unless they clog, which they eventually do.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on December 09, 2010, 04:37:10 AM
Unless they clog, which they eventually do.

i've never seen that, then again, they get dumped pretty quickly.  but that's the first i've heard.  what clogs them?  they are a closed system, so the only things that can get in are vapor..  when i picked up my '98 900fe, i found the canister under the front fairing (where I like to mount the oil cooler) and removed it -- it wasn't clogged, just 3 lbs of crap off the bike!


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Bill in OKC on December 09, 2010, 05:51:07 AM
Seems like any way you look at it - there is a vicious circle of ever-tightening regulations and laws that are incompatible with each other and the vehicles they apply to.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: howie on December 09, 2010, 02:01:31 PM
i've never seen that, then again, they get dumped pretty quickly.  but that's the first i've heard.  what clogs them?  they are a closed system, so the only things that can get in are vapor..  when i picked up my '98 900fe, i found the canister under the front fairing (where I like to mount the oil cooler) and removed it -- it wasn't clogged, just 3 lbs of crap off the bike!

The charcoal gradually compacts.  It usually takes a long time and since most of the bikes loose them early in life it is rare.  The other "clogging" problem is people over stuffing the tank.  Fuel gets warm, expands and soaks the canister which also causes rich running.  I had to change one on my buddie's BMW due to restriction.  They are also semi closed.  One hose to the tank, one to the manifolds, one vented to the atmosphere.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Meerkat on December 09, 2010, 03:26:58 PM
07 S2R1K silver with black stripe warranty tank replacement
10-08-10: First trip to Coleman's for pictures and paperwork to submit warranty claim. Told I would have to leave bike or deposit once warranty work was approved.
11-11-10: Notified by Coleman's that warranty replacement was approved and tank ordered. Updated that I wouldn't need to leave bike or deposit, but requested to bring bike in within 2 weeks after tank arrives.
12-04-10: Coleman's called to let me know that tank had arrived.
12-07-10: Dropped off bike to have the tank replaced. Supposed to be ready for pickup tomorrow.

Picked up the s2r from Coleman's with the new tank. Looks great, works great. Was damn glad I had on my leathers to block the wind, cuz it was COLD at speed. [moto]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: DRKWNG on December 09, 2010, 03:29:29 PM
it was COLD at speed. [moto]

make the beast with two backs YES it is.  Doood, it's like 28 out there, standing still!!


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: lilmonster on December 09, 2010, 03:53:58 PM
I called about the LineATank sealer, I was told it is a MCU and will work on Nylon. "It will stick to almost anything"  He said.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on December 09, 2010, 03:58:44 PM
What is an MCU?

Will they put that in writing?  That it will adhere to nylon and is impervious to ethanol?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: GAAN on December 09, 2010, 04:45:15 PM
a MCU is a marine paint it stands for moisture cured or some such


http://www.offshore-technology.com/contractors/corrosion/mcu-coatings/ (http://www.offshore-technology.com/contractors/corrosion/mcu-coatings/)

we used this stuff on machines that sat outside at Johnston Atoll

I know nothing about it except it was applied in a gumby suit




Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducpainter on December 09, 2010, 05:06:01 PM
What is an MCU?

Will they put that in writing?  That it will adhere to nylon and is impervious to ethanol?
Moisture cured urethane. That's what POR is.

I'm skeptical.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: GAAN on December 09, 2010, 05:12:12 PM
maybe its time for a fuel cell in a plastic tank-shaped vessel


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: lilmonster on December 09, 2010, 05:38:09 PM
If Caswell has been used with success, I will probably use it. I know alot of Us are trying to find a solution to the problem because eventually, Ducati will stop replacing tanks on older bikes. Just trying to help.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: jgrm1 on December 16, 2010, 01:29:46 PM
Izaak,

I received another email last night from the Yahoo group requesting more data.  You have been collecting data from us for a while and I am curious how you intend to use that data.  I am also curious about your plan now that there is a class action and interest from the NHTSA.  What's next?

I read a couple of letters written by Ducati owners in the latest issue of Motorcycle Consumer News asking when the media was going to get involved in the expanding tank issue.  It seems the movement is growing (pardon the pun).  MCN's advice was to contact NHTSA.

Thanks,
Jeff


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: BoDiddley on December 17, 2010, 08:13:16 AM
Is this old new?  I have not been keeping up with the problem until this morning.  I just talked to Caswell TS and he said Ducati has tested the product and is adviseing the use of it for the expansion problem.  I was conserned about longevity of it and he said he has been working thier for eight years and has never heard of a problem.  Plastic Duc tanks are obviously not that old but.

My 07 S4Rs tank is just now getting long enough to have a problem latching.  The local dealer told me he has a pile of thirty tanks out in back that Ducati is making them keep on hand.  He also said Ducati sent him an advisory that they are no longer addressing the problem!  They were up until the middle of November.  No news thier probably.

lGrain of salt anyone?

http://www.caswellplating.com/aids/epoxygas.htm (http://www.caswellplating.com/aids/epoxygas.htm)

known as   PHENOL NOVOLAC EPOXY GAS TANK SEALER


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on December 17, 2010, 09:57:06 AM
Izaak,

I received another email last night from the Yahoo group requesting more data.  You have been collecting data from us for a while and I am curious how you intend to use that data.  I am also curious about your plan now that there is a class action and interest from the NHTSA.  What's next?

I read a couple of letters written by Ducati owners in the latest issue of Motorcycle Consumer News asking when the media was going to get involved in the expanding tank issue.  It seems the movement is growing (pardon the pun).  MCN's advice was to contact NHTSA.

Thanks,
Jeff

Jeff, I really can't go into details yet.  All of the parties are still talking.

Is this old new?  I have not been keeping up with the problem until this morning.  I just talked to Caswell TS and he said Ducati has tested the product and is adviseing the use of it for the expansion problem.  I was conserned about longevity of it and he said he has been working thier for eight years and has never heard of a problem.  Plastic Duc tanks are obviously not that old but.

My 07 S4Rs tank is just now getting long enough to have a problem latching.  The local dealer told me he has a pile of thirty tanks out in back that Ducati is making them keep on hand.  He also said Ducati sent him an advisory that they are no longer addressing the problem!  They were up until the middle of November.  No news thier probably.

lGrain of salt anyone?

http://www.caswellplating.com/aids/epoxygas.htm (http://www.caswellplating.com/aids/epoxygas.htm)

known as   PHENOL NOVOLAC EPOXY GAS TANK SEALER

I set up the testing of Caswell for Ducati, and pushed them to look at a barrier (coating) solution. 

The word was that the coating worked to prevent the swelling and adhered well, but due to homologation reqs they (Ducati as manufacturer) could not use it.  It works well though, and several folks on the Multistrada board have had it in their tanks well over a year now.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: CDawg on December 17, 2010, 11:39:28 AM
~4.5 month into the new tank that I had Caswell-ed.  No expansion so far!


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: BoDiddley on December 18, 2010, 05:24:47 AM
Hey Cdawg or anyone that has used Caswell, I just pulled my tank and am drying it out so I can use the Caswell when it gets here.  Caswell advises that you bump in a handfull of drywall screws and shake to scratch the intererior for adhesion.
It seems to me that a few could get stuck in the corners?  And if they do they would or could find thier way to the sensor plate.  Anyone worried about it.

Also I have read that the tank will shrink after a good dry.  This is not good if it continues to shrink after application, risk cracking under movement.   I am going to set mine up with a small fan blowing through it at the plate hole for at least a month to be sure.  It is winter in Michigan so I am down anyhow.

Drywall screws sounds like shade tree mechanic advise but whatever works, as long as they all come out.  At least count them for sure but then what if they do get stuck?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on December 18, 2010, 05:28:22 AM
the screws are recommended to knock loose any scale or rust.  there's no need to do that on the nylon tanks.

i would recommend looking inside the tank and cutting off any thin air bubbles that are in the surface before coating as the coating will sit on top of the bubble.  the bubbles are artefacts from the rotomolding and removing them is non-problematic.  use an exacto knife and cut conservatively.

the bubbles i am referring to look like a pimple- they rise off the inner surface.  anything below the surface leave alone.  typically, they will "pop" just using your fingernail.  Most tanks will have no more than 2-3 and most will have none.



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: BoDiddley on December 18, 2010, 05:31:29 AM
Thanks : Any thought on the shrinking?  I cannot see very far at all in my tank to look for pimples?  S4Rs 07....


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: J.P. on December 18, 2010, 05:34:25 AM
I too was told by my dealer that Duc sent him a memo and will no longer replace tanks as it's a cosmetic issue.
Haven't been by to get my bike (with a new tank) to ask him for a copy for Iz. Sorry- they're over an hour away.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: J.P. on December 18, 2010, 05:39:46 AM
Anyone try Stabil's Marine Ethanol Treatment? Lable says it has 4 times the ethanol fighting component- what ever that means.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: myleslong on December 18, 2010, 07:22:30 AM
Hello all,
As promised, I'm posting the results of my Caswell adventure.
 I can only report my opinion based on my experience. I did the Caswell treatment on my brand new tank last week.
I sent Caswell an E-mail explaining that my tank was new and had never had gas in it.
 They strongly recommended that I use the acetone and dry wall screws to rough up and soften the surface a little. Against my better judgment, I did, based on their strong recommendation.
Of the 10 drywall screws I put in, I was only able to get 6 out. As I was shaking the tank with the Acetone and screws, the rattle sound gradually disappeared all together.
No amount of shaking, tapping the inside of the tank with a rubber dead blow, or rotating the tank for at least 25 minutes would locate the remaining 4 screws. no rattle from the screws...nothing, Long flexible magnet no success.
 I finally gave up and they got "Caswelled" in place forever.
 As a bi-product of this exercise and despite much masking, taping, tin foiling etc.etc.  some of the acetone managed to get by the fuel fill plug and onto the stripe in front of the filler and immediately ate the clear coat and was working on the decal itself. I was not happy.
By the way..  doing a fingernail test of the inside of the tank at the fuel pump hole after the acetone disaster I noted absolutely no difference in the surface.
So..... New tank decal  $25.00.... Scuff and re-clear the tank about $150.00 and about 4 extra hours of my time.
 I did the coating in 2 stages..1/2 of the product and then 10 hours later the second 1/2. It seems to have covered well and is as hard as a rock. I strongly recommend thinning as much as the directions allow.
This stuff is as thick as honey and a pain in the ass to move around in the tank before it begins to kick  @76 deg.
 If I had it to do over, keeping in mind that my tank is brand new, I'd skip the acetone... Probably do water with at least 13mm nuts or bolts for the roughing up. The dry wall screws are way to skinny for a Monster tank. I guarantee it.
 I hope this is the final solution, cause it sure has not been a fun or rewarding exercise, and has ended up costing me a couple of hundred bucks and much aggravation.
 By the way, I've been a mechanic, working on on bikes, cars, painting, fabricating etc. for over 30 years, so I'm no rookie.
 Take my experience as a warning, the acetone is lethal to paint and clear coat. THE DRYWALL SCREWS ARE TOO SMALL...DON'T USE THEM !!
Good luck to all who decide on this option.
Regards,
Myles


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on December 18, 2010, 09:37:40 AM
I just don't get the drywall screw part.  It serves no purpose for a plastic walled tank.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: BoDiddley on December 18, 2010, 11:13:39 AM
myleslong : Man sorry you had to learn the hard way and I am glad you informed us.  I think i will forgo the screws for sure and I think I will use a bodyshops gunwash solution.  It has acetone in it but no where near full strength.  I used to be a bodyman and you can usually use it on paint as long as you take it off right away. 

I am still curious about the "shrinking in time" affect that I have read about on other forums.  The more I read about it the more it seems viable to a point.  But even a little shrinkage would help most tanks.  I am going take a few precise measurment and put a fan blowing through it for a week.  I will post anything I find.  If it shrinks even 2% a week it would be worth it for the rest of the winter.  Then do the Caswell.


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: jgrm1 on December 19, 2010, 06:11:02 PM
...acetone managed to get by the fuel fill plug and onto the stripe in front of the filler and immediately ate the clear coat and was working on the decal itself...

I have been trying to figure out how to swish with acetone without damaging the finish.

-Jeff


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: sbrguy on December 19, 2010, 07:14:07 PM
is there any way to make the caswell move more like water in the tank instead of honey? and will this then affect how well the stuff works?

also why did you use 1/2 and 1/2 would it be better to use the whole can or even 2 cans to do one tank the theory being more stuff to slosh around equals easier to coat everything in one shot or would that just make it too thick?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducpainter on December 19, 2010, 07:18:02 PM
is there any way to make the caswell move more like water in the tank instead of honey? and will this then affect how well the stuff works?

also why did you use 1/2 and 1/2 would it be better to use the whole can or even 2 cans to do one tank the theory being more stuff to slosh around equals easier to coat everything in one shot or would that just make it too thick?
2 cans won't make it thicker, just more thick stuff in the tank at one time.

Over thinning would probably affect the cure in a detrimental manner


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: sbrguy on December 19, 2010, 08:09:58 PM
It has to be some legal reason.  My guess is that the US version has to be CARB (california) compliant.  It's a long explanation why we have two sets of emissions laws in the USA (Federal EPA and California ARB) but Cali is a huge market for bikes and no importer would ship bikes here without being Cali compliant.

That's why US bikes have the vapor emissions (charcoal) canister on them -- and the fuel tank must work with it.

Likewise, there may be some additional crash requirements which necessitate the nylon tank.  I know for a fact that all PE's (HDPE, XLPE) are less shatter resistant than nylon (which bounces).

...but this is all beer pub speculation.

ah ha, so now the key is how to get your hands on some xple tanks instead of the pa tanks.  that would probably solve everything..  anyone know someone in antoher country to ship them?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: sbrguy on December 19, 2010, 08:32:07 PM
what is the acetone used for?


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: BoDiddley on December 19, 2010, 09:48:20 PM
what is the acetone used for?


Acetone is solvent to plastic because it is made from plastics, a good example is the primer that is used for PVC plumbing.  It softens and expands an outside layer of the plastic which makes it adhere well to other "hot" solvents, the glue.  So the tank needs the acetone to soften as well as clean I presume.  Someone that knows more than I about plastics can say more about that.  Being an ex NASA paint man I have used a lot of Acetone.  That is why it is eating the polyurethane base of the clear coat and anything else plastic.  

I am still waiting for my tank to dry and for the can of Caswell.  You do not have to leave the acetone in the tank longer than five seconds.  Just enough to cover and clean all of the inside surface and then drain it out fast.  So you have absorbant rags at the ready, you seal the main bottom plate hole "tight" with duck tape, have a rag made up to fit tight in the cap hole.  Outside over whatever you can use to catch it, have the tank in your hands with one over the bottom hole keeping pressure on the duck tape (using a thick rag to distribute the pressure), have a friend with a funnel, carefully without spilling a drop, dump in a quart of Acetone (or gunwash / lacquer thinner) stick the rag in the cap hole, shake it around good for 5 seconds, hold the tank over a large pan and have your buddy pull off the duck tape.  Clean quick with rags and continue on with the caswell as soon as you are done cleaning it.  I would even have the Caswell ready to go or at least ready to mix before the clean.  Make sure the acetone is completely dry.


Acetone will eat up any rubber gloves that you find at the grocery store but they should give you time to keep it off your hands, just peel them off ASAP.   Or buy a couple pair of solvent resistaint gloves from a manfacturers supply shop.

I am going to use gunwash as I mentioned before instead of acetone, you can buy it at any parts store that carries automotive paints.

I am wondering if the Caswell is a solvent, it would be good if it is but if it is a two part system it probably is not.

Good Luck!


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on December 20, 2010, 04:47:30 AM
is there any way to make the caswell move more like water in the tank instead of honey? and will this then affect how well the stuff works?

also why did you use 1/2 and 1/2 would it be better to use the whole can or even 2 cans to do one tank the theory being more stuff to slosh around equals easier to coat everything in one shot or would that just make it too thick?

Double check with Caswell, but thinning with MEK should be fine.

2 cans won't make it thicker, just more thick stuff in the tank at one time.

Over thinning would probably affect the cure in a detrimental manner

MEK is volatile, it just poofs out with good ventilation.  I used it with the Bill Hirsch coating which is also a 2-part setup and smells the same.  (which is how I identify chemicals, just like a Bloodhound)

The best way to do it is to keep the ingredients at room temp or above, around 70-75 F.  If you thin, then go very conservatively and use no more than 2-3 drops at a time. 


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: BoDiddley on December 20, 2010, 05:40:40 AM

Double check with Caswell, but thinning with MEK should be fine.

MEK is volatile, it just poofs out with good ventilation.  I used it with the Bill Hirsch coating which is also a 2-part setup and smells the same.  (which is how I identify chemicals, just like a Bloodhound)

The best way to do it is to keep the ingredients at room temp or above, around 70-75 F.  If you thin, then go very conservatively and use no more than 2-3 drops at a time. 


Ducatiz : Do you have confidence in Bill Hirsch's coating adhereing to the inside, if you can delute it with mek then itself must be a solvent which is good?  Just when a person has a fix more information comes along everytime.  The gods of the forum must be laughing [wine]




Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on December 20, 2010, 06:00:09 AM

Ducatiz : Do you have confidence in Bill Hirsch's coating adhereing to the inside, if you can delute it with mek then itself must be a solvent which is good?  Just when a person has a fix more information comes along everytime.  The gods of the forum must be laughing [wine]

I have NO EXPERIENCE with the Bill Hirsch coating on the Ducati NYLON tank.

I have experience with it on METAL tanks.  I have never contacted Bill Hirsch to see if they think it will adhere to plastic/nylon. 

I have used it on 5 metal tanks and diluted it a good bit -- it rolled thru the tank pretty quickly, and just kept the air moving.  It started to thicken after about 20 minutes of turning the tank and covered everything enough after about 30 minutes and stuck. 



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Heath on December 20, 2010, 06:22:01 AM
<snip>
 If I had it to do over, keeping in mind that my tank is brand new, I'd skip the acetone... Probably do water with at least 13mm nuts or bolts for the roughing up. The dry wall screws are way to skinny for a Monster tank. I guarantee it.
<snip>
Why would you use water when that is what is making the tanks expand?  [roll]


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: ducatiz on December 20, 2010, 06:26:33 AM
Why would you use water when that is what is making the tanks expand?  [roll]

A few seconds of contact probably won't hurt it, the problem is constant contact.



Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: BoDiddley on December 20, 2010, 06:38:20 AM
I have been drying out my tank since Saturday morning, 48 hours.  I took some fairly precise measurements before I started.  I took a measurement this morning and was thrilled to see that the width had come back 1/16th of an inch.  But the length did not, which I thought would have the most shrinkage.  !!IT SHRINKS BACK!!  Time will tell how much but it is good news to me to see it actually get smaller by even that little bit.  I am going to leave it blowing for at least a month before I coat with the Caswell (michigan winter).  If nothing else you do not want it shrinking or moving at all with a coating on the interior.

(http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff406/DucatiRocket/TankDry.jpg)


Title: Re: Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates
Post by: Bill in OKC on December 20, 2010, 10:53:07 AM
Not for the faint of heart - this made me feel a bit queasy like doing taxes only worse.

http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/acms/docservlet/Artemis/Public/Pursuits/2010/PE/INIM-PE10045-42821.pdf (http://www-odi.nhts